Common denominator.
Markus Howard playing terribly
Tonight we extended a leaded to over 10 with Howard on the bench.
Bring him in and lose by 9.
Love the kid. But let's be honest.........
Markus, grab a seat
Quote from: PTM on March 06, 2019, 07:45:33 PM
Markus, grab a seat
It sucks. Cause I love the kid.
But kinda?
Man did that suck large
Is he hurt? Groin? Wrist? Just playing bad?
Its sad but he just played himself out of the draft for sure this year and enough red flags to put doubt on it next year.
This is all mental. You could see he was out of sorts last game... the charges, screaming at the officials, etc. same thing tonight. Wojo needs to tell him to focus on assists not scoring. If he can get everyone else involved his shots will open up.
So when Markus plays well we win. When Markus doesn't play well, me may lose. So the answer is to bench him? That doesn't make sense to me.
I do wonder if Sacar playing point when the defense is this aggressive makes sense. He seemed to handle it a lot better than Markus did.
Markus has struggled at key moments, but he still did put up 30 against Creighton. But he has been downright BAD at the end of games in back half of conference play.
But Wojo hasn't done the team any favors either, IMO. We've come out of timeouts and had awful outcomes too many times. We've gone 4 or 5 minutes without scoring in too many games. That's just inexplicably bad.
Yep Sacar was doing well breaking the press but even did force it through double team couple of times and turned it over
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 06, 2019, 07:53:23 PM
So the answer is to bench him? That doesn't make sense to me.
Did you watch the game today? If so, the answer (for today) was YES! Love the kid, but didn't have it today. Wojo should have realized that.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 06, 2019, 07:57:31 PM
Did you watch the game today? If so, the answer (for today) was YES! Love the kid, but didn't have it today. Wojo should have realized that.
I was surprised he kept him on the bench as king as he did. Guess he Should have stayed with it as well as the team was playing.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 06, 2019, 08:01:02 PM
I was surprised he kept him on the bench as king as he did. Guess he Should have stayed with it as well as the team was playing.
Or the argument could be made that he left Markus on the bench too long both tonight and vs CU. Either way it's obvious Wojo's plan failed both times
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 06, 2019, 07:53:23 PM
So when Markus plays well we win. When Markus doesn't play well, me may lose. So the answer is to bench him? That doesn't make sense to me.
I do wonder if Sacar playing point when the defense is this aggressive makes sense. He seemed to handle it a lot better than Markus did.
When he plays poorly we play better when he is out.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 06, 2019, 07:53:23 PM
So when Markus plays well we win. When Markus doesn't play well, me may lose. So the answer is to bench him? That doesn't make sense to me.
I do wonder if Sacar playing point when the defense is this aggressive makes sense. He seemed to handle it a lot better than Markus did.
The D has been this aggressive for many weeks now. It's constant. Seems like we get fouled a ton without calls on the overly aggressive D towards center court.
Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on March 06, 2019, 07:50:04 PM
This is all mental. You could see he was out of sorts last game... the charges, screaming at the officials, etc. same thing tonight. Wojo needs to tell him to focus on assists not scoring. If he can get everyone else involved his shots will open up.
Thats like asking a blind man to keep his eye on the ball he has zero court vision and looking to pass is not in his dna. Watch first play of game theo ball screen n rolls to rim. No one within 15 feet of theo and markus refuses to pass to him. Later Markus turns it over. Kid wont or cant pass. Doesnt have a single point guard gene in his body.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 06, 2019, 07:57:31 PM
Did you watch the game today? If so, the answer (for today) was YES! Love the kid, but didn't have it today. Wojo should have realized that.
Maybe tonight. And Wojo did realize it. That's why he sat him for as long as he did. He didn't bring Markus back until we were losing the lead and the momentum was on Hall's side. It's possible he waited too long, impossible to know.
What I do know is that every time Howard shoots I expect it to go in....until the last 5 minutes of the game. He had two that he usually makes, including one that couldn't have been more wide open that rimmed out. Sam seemed to be more guilty of chucking at the end tonight.
Quote from: NickelDimer on March 06, 2019, 08:08:21 PM
Or the argument could be made that he left Markus on the bench too long both tonight and vs CU. Either way it's obvious Wojo's plan failed both times
I'm as big an optimist as there is for MUBB. And I love Howard. And love Wojo. Can't even come on this site after a loss because of how toxic it gets.
But keeping Howard in the bench TOO long tonight was not the problem. We extended the lead big time (and I'm sure I am off on this) by about 9 points when Howard was on the bench.
When he came on. We lost by 9.
Math.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 06, 2019, 08:18:06 PM
Maybe tonight. And Wojo did realize it. That's why he sat him for as long as he did. He didn't bring Markus back until we were losing the lead and the momentum was on Hall's side. It's possible he waited too long, impossible to know.
What I do know is that every time Howard shoots I expect it to go in....until the last 5 minutes of the game. He had two that he usually makes, including one that couldn't have been more wide open that rimmed out. Sam seemed to be more guilty of chucking at the end tonight.
Sam did kinda chuck a bit at the end of the game. A lot of weird learners with guys all over him. But no one else was hitting anything.
Quote from: fjm on March 06, 2019, 08:19:07 PM
I'm as big an optimist as there is for MUBB. And I love Howard. And love Wojo. Can't even come on this site after a loss because of how toxic it gets.
But keeping Howard in the bench TOO long tonight was not the problem. We extended the lead big time (and I'm sure I am off on this) by about 9 points when Howard was on the bench.
When he came on. We lost by 9.
Math.
I see that argument. My point is either hardly sit him at all or sit him for the majority of the half when you're teams playing well. Sitting him too long then bringing him in ruined the team's flow and Markus flow. It's the worst of both worlds
There are just as many wojo apologists on this forum as there are negative piss ants like me but seriously this is embarassing.
A top 10 finish was set up beautifully and we pissed it away. Those opportunities for the program will not come around very often. We could easily fade into the depaul and loyola likes in the next 10 years. Gotta take these chances and make em count!!!
Beyond pissed about this turn of events.
We will get absolutely throttled by a good press team in the tourney
Quote from: NickelDimer on March 06, 2019, 08:21:18 PM
I see that argument. My point is either hardly sit him at all or sit him for the majority of the half when you're teams playing well. Sitting him too long then bringing him in ruined the team's flow and Markus flow. It's the worst of both worlds
Yep, you either gotta bring him back earlier, and ride him until he fouls out, or leave him out, unless there are FTs to be hit (not they they would matter). I would have left him out, and continued to feed Theo/Ed.
These guys can't close out a game to save their lives. I blame everyone, not just Wojo and Markus. Other teams have figured out how to shut down Markus and that we can't break pressure.
Hope Wojo can figure it out soon. But I'm seriously looking into Saturday afternoon theater tickets. I can't take another choke job.
Meanwhile depaul is absolutely murdering g town. Watch us chalk up our 4th straight to them this weekend.
Quote from: Mike Deane's Seat Belt on March 06, 2019, 08:25:42 PM
Meanwhile depaul is absolutely murdering g town. Watch us chalk up our 4th straight to them this weekend.
Call me an eternal optimist, but I actually think we'll win pretty comfortably Saturday. As much film and game plan knowledge information as there is out there on Markus, actually playing against him is a whole different problem. Gtown has a young backcourt that has never faced Markus before.
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on March 06, 2019, 08:15:26 PM
Thats like asking a blind man to keep his eye on the ball he has zero court vision and looking to pass is not in his dna. Watch first play of game theo ball screen n rolls to rim. No one within 15 feet of theo and markus refuses to pass to him. Later Markus turns it over. Kid wont or cant pass. Doesnt have a single point guard gene in his body.
Bingo. As the 2d half of BE conference play rolled-around other teams saw this and exploited it. Love the guy, but he is a liability at point. A natural shooting guard on a team without a point guard.
I know there kids and all BUT has anyone else had the urge to punch Joey in the face the last two games? Asking for a friend 🥴
Marcus plays point as if MU basketball only has one player on the court at a time while the opposing team has five.
Quote from: muwarrior97 on March 06, 2019, 08:41:30 PM
I know there kids and all BUT has anyone else had the urge to punch Joey in the face the last two games? Asking for a friend 🥴
(http://media.giphy.com/media/fCUCy5Pp7gIAGAILfA/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Class71 on March 06, 2019, 08:47:09 PM
Marcus plays point as if MU basketball only has one player on the court at a time while the opposing team has five.
This is exactly what it looks like.
Or like a playet trying to run around with the ball avoiding the other team thats trying to foul to extend the game .......only when we dont have the lead????
The poor play by Howard came to a head against nova imo. Team flourished when he went out with 4 min left or so. Brought him back in, forced shots, turnovers, etc. Hate to say it but the team just plays better when he's not in there, as of late anyways
Quote from: MUeng on March 06, 2019, 09:11:04 PM
The poor play by Howard came to a head against nova imo. Team flourished when he went out with 4 min left or so. Brought him back in, forced shots, turnovers, etc. Hate to say it but the team just plays better when he's not in there, as of late anyways
He was the best player on the floor v. Creighton by a long shot.
Quote from: MUeng on March 06, 2019, 09:11:04 PM
The poor play by Howard came to a head against nova imo. Team flourished when he went out with 4 min left or so. Brought him back in, forced shots, turnovers, etc. Hate to say it but the team just plays better when he's not in there, as of late anyways
Amazingly, there is some truth to this lately, though I would have to say our ceiling is much lower without him. He was an absolute turnover machine tonight. Strangely, in the first half a few TOs occurred when he probably should have shot but tried to make a risky pass instead. One in particular in a stretch of 4 consecutive turnovers be passed up a wide open floater for a slick pass to Morrow he never had a chance of catching. I know it was his left wrist, but can't help but wonder if that is affecting him. Bizarre how poor he has played for the great season he has had.
Have to think he will continue to develop new skills and figure it out, but not sure that's happening in a week or two.
Before this season Marquette had never had 3 straight wins in the BE. 3 straight losses at this point seems like a blessing aina?
Also, sit down Mark Howard
The team simply is not playing well with Markus on the floor right now as the primary ball handler. Team's have adjusted to Markus's stickiness with the ball and are holding doubles longer on ball screens and collapsing on drives knowing full well Markus isn't passing or at least isn't passing very often. It's unfortunate because I think this was likely avoidable with some coaching throughout the season, but Wojo and many of us(at times myself included) were happy to let Markus just fire away and throw up the numbers all the while calling it offense.
Is he trying to play beyond himself to impress scouts? "Look at me do point guard things!" I dunno, maybe. He's been different lately though
Quote from: MUeng on March 06, 2019, 09:24:07 PM
Is he trying to play beyond himself to impress scouts? "Look at me do point guard things!" I dunno, maybe. He's been different lately though
It's a stupid thought but I actually thought the same. He failed miserably at it if so. He's an incredible scorer at the college level but I'm not seeing any point guard skills. Doesn't control the game and makes poor decisions.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 06, 2019, 08:18:06 PM
Sam seemed to be more guilty of chucking at the end tonight.
When Powell hit that long 3 to put SH up for the first time since early going, I was yelling at the TV, "We don't need a forced 3 with a hand in our face! We just need a good shot!" Damn if Sam didn't take a hero-ball, terrible 3 that he had no prayer making.
He and Joey each took a few ill-advised shots down the stretch. As did Markus.
So many folks seem to think Markus singlehandedly lost this game down the stretch, though.
Quote from: MUeng on March 06, 2019, 09:24:07 PM
Is he trying to play beyond himself to impress scouts? "Look at me do point guard things!" I dunno, maybe. He's been different lately though
I think we're questioning what changed for Markus. Even his deminor in the CU game appeared to be different. At times he looked disinterested and then the very next play he looked like he felt the whole game and team was in his shoulders
He scored 33 against Creighton and shot over 50% for the game.
Someone said it earlier which I said to my dad as soon as the game ended and I was screaming profanities at the TV:
Put Sacar at the point. At least he was serviceable at it.
Take the ball out of Markus's hands all the time so he can cut down his TO's and work to get open instead of always being on the ball, committing turnovers and charges.
Bench Joey. Or at least cut his minutes WAY down right now. He has a huge upside but right now he is almost a liability right now.
Wojo needs to improve his coaching. There are ways to beat the press without a great point guard. Wojo needs to get the team ready to do that. By Saturday. Or Gtown will do it to us again.
Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on March 06, 2019, 09:39:00 PM
I think we're questioning what changed for Markus. Even his deminor in the CU game appeared to be different. At times he looked disinterested and then the very next play he looked like he felt the whole game and team was in his shoulders
Disinterested?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 06, 2019, 09:45:02 PM
He scored 33 against Creighton and shot over 50% for the game.
And yet he has 18 TO in the losing streak, a number which he has only passed over a three game period once this season, and that included his 53 point 70% three point shooting game. Markus' TO are fine, as long as he's scoring. If he has a trademark 5 TO 25 point game he's probably SOTG right now, rather than being heavily criticized.
Quote from: Class71 on March 06, 2019, 08:47:09 PM
Marcus plays point as if MU basketball only has one player on the court at a time while the opposing team has five.
Markus passed a lot tonight, almost too much.
All we heard for several days way play touney at the point!
All I've said was this team is worse if Markus isn't handling the ball and takes a back seat
5 turnovers be damned, who gives a crap if dude drops 25-30? Cmon man!
Passive Markus is this teams death sentence, not turnover Markus. He will get those aggressive or passive because he handles the ball way more than he should
Quote from: DoctorV on March 06, 2019, 10:29:11 PM
Markus passed a lot tonight, almost too much.
All we heard for several days way play touney at the point!
All I've said was this team is worse if Markus isn't handling the ball and takes a back seat
5 turnovers be damned, who gives a crap if dude drops 25-30? Cmon man!
Passive Markus is this teams death sentence, not turnover Markus. He will get those aggressive or passive because he handles the ball way more than he should
Is his hand/wrist hurting more than the public is being let known? He seemed way off last night.
Quote from: muwarrior97 on March 06, 2019, 08:41:30 PM
I know there kids and all BUT has anyone else had the urge to punch Joey in the face the last two games? Asking for a friend 🥴
No. Punching your friend in the face otoh?
Quote from: warriors1991 on March 06, 2019, 09:50:51 PM
Someone said it earlier which I said to my dad as soon as the game ended and I was screaming profanities at the TV:
Put Sacar at the point. At least he was serviceable at it.
All true.
Take the ball out of Markus's hands all the time so he can cut down his TO's and work to get open instead of always being on the ball, committing turnovers and charges.
Bench Joey. Or at least cut his minutes WAY down right now. He has a huge upside but right now he is almost a liability right now.
Wojo needs to improve his coaching. There are ways to beat the press without a great point guard. Wojo needs to get the team ready to do that. By Saturday. Or Gtown will do it to us again.
The press really hasn't been the problem. The turnovers are occurring in the half-court offense.
I honestly think the solution is for this team to run more...fast breaking, you don't need to think, you just react. And an open floor fits this teams skills better then a slow down half court style. The TO's would be less, Joey and Sam sniping on transition 3's.. deadly. I have often wondered why they haven't played faster this year...They haven't played at the tempo they did last year, I know that. I thought there were at least a few occasions they could have and should have run against Creighton and for whatever reason didn't. Run, run, run..open up the floor, I promise you the TO's will go way down.
Quote from: muguru on March 07, 2019, 02:36:41 PM
I honestly think the solution is for this team to run more...fast breaking, you don't need to think, you just react. And an open floor fits this teams skills better then a slow down half court style. The TO's would be less, Joey and Sam sniping on transition 3's.. deadly. I have often wondered why they haven't played faster this year...They haven't played at the tempo they did last year, I know that. I thought there were at least a few occasions they could have and should have run against Creighton and for whatever reason didn't. Run, run, run..open up the floor, I promise you the TO's will go way down.
I agree. I think playing at a faster tempo would help. The Creighton game was a perfect example. MU was securing the boards, then Markus would slow it down. Walk it up. All that did was allow Creighton to get back and set their defense.
Not to harp too much on this, but I wonder if the failure of Chartouny to provide 10-15 minutes of solid play has Wojo slowing it down. His inability to provide solid minutes has caught up with this team and is causing problems. Sacar's handle has improved, but he's not a guy who's going to lead a break.
Quote from: muguru on March 07, 2019, 02:36:41 PM
I honestly think the solution is for this team to run more...fast breaking, you don't need to think, you just react. And an open floor fits this teams skills better then a slow down half court style. The TO's would be less, Joey and Sam sniping on transition 3's.. deadly. I have often wondered why they haven't played faster this year...They haven't played at the tempo they did last year, I know that. I thought there were at least a few occasions they could have and should have run against Creighton and for whatever reason didn't. Run, run, run..open up the floor, I promise you the TO's will go way down.
I'm sure there are stats on this, but it seems to me that we have had a ridiculous amount of turnovers this year whenever we tried to push the ball up the court off of a rebound or steal. It jumps out at me as being a problem earlier in the year moreso than lately, but that may be because we stopped pushing it due to the TO issues. It seemed guys would get too excited trying to push it and throw a pass away or get it stolen off the dribble. I can remember Chartouny and Joey having the biggest issues, but several others as well.
too much dribbling and why don't we know where our teammates are or are supposed to be this late in the season?
Quote from: muguru on March 07, 2019, 02:36:41 PM
I honestly think the solution is for this team to run more...fast breaking, you don't need to think, you just react. And an open floor fits this teams skills better then a slow down half court style. The TO's would be less, Joey and Sam sniping on transition 3's.. deadly. I have often wondered why they haven't played faster this year...They haven't played at the tempo they did last year, I know that. I thought there were at least a few occasions they could have and should have run against Creighton and for whatever reason didn't. Run, run, run..open up the floor, I promise you the TO's will go way down.
I guess that the clueless coach has yet to think of that. And you do have to admit that the Hausers are not too fleet of foot.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 06, 2019, 08:55:23 PM
(http://media.giphy.com/media/fCUCy5Pp7gIAGAILfA/giphy.gif)
I blame the Turnover Drinking game the friend was talked into, it was the Corn Syrup talking and not rational
Hoping all is better now....Don't do the drinking game!!! #TurnoverCity
Quote from: muguru on March 07, 2019, 02:36:41 PM
I honestly think the solution is for this team to run more...fast breaking, you don't need to think, you just react. And an open floor fits this teams skills better then a slow down half court style. The TO's would be less, Joey and Sam sniping on transition 3's.. deadly. I have often wondered why they haven't played faster this year...They haven't played at the tempo they did last year, I know that. I thought there were at least a few occasions they could have and should have run against Creighton and for whatever reason didn't. Run, run, run..open up the floor, I promise you the TO's will go way down.
Where does talent winning the game fit into this strategy?
Marcus is our leading scorer and he deserves credit. He also is our leading TO artist with almost 28% of the team's total for the season. In the last 3 games everyone is turning the ball over more while Marcus managed to increase his share to 31% of the teams total.
I would say we know what the problem is. Marcus is an issue but the team is also going in a negative direction on TO's. So does Wojo focus on the problem?
While we are shitting the bed........
Bucky killed iowa and will leap frog us in the rankings and finish with a higher seed in the tourney. Awesome
Quote from: Class71 on March 07, 2019, 08:12:10 PM
Marcus is our leading scorer and he deserves credit. He also is our leading TO artist with almost 28% of the team's total for the season. In the last 3 games everyone is turning the ball over more while Marcus managed to increase his share to 31% of the teams total.
I would say we know what the problem is. Marcus is an issue but the team is also going in a negative direction on TO's. So does Wojo focus on the problem?
*Markus
*Markus
*Markus
Why is this so hard?
Quote from: Mike Deane's Seat Belt on March 07, 2019, 08:13:08 PM
While we are crapting the bed........
Bucky killed iowa and will leap frog us in the rankings and finish with a higher seed in the tourney. Awesome
Same Iowa team that lost to Rutgers by double digits in Iowa just the other day...that Iowa team?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 07, 2019, 08:17:41 PM
*Markus
*Markus
*Markus
Why is this so hard?
71 has never ever called him Markus.
Quote from: Mike Deane's Seat Belt on March 07, 2019, 08:13:08 PM
While we are crapting the bed........
Bucky killed iowa and will leap frog us in the rankings and finish with a higher seed in the tourney. Awesome
You know who F%cky didn't kill?
Marquette, among others.
Quote from: Mike Deane's Seat Belt on March 07, 2019, 08:13:08 PM
While we are crapting the bed........
Bucky killed iowa and will leap frog us in the rankings and finish with a higher seed in the tourney. Awesome
Who cares?
He's a badgers troll. Just look at his posting history
Quote from: muguru on March 07, 2019, 02:36:41 PM
I honestly think the solution is for this team to run more...fast breaking, you don't need to think, you just react. And an open floor fits this teams skills better then a slow down half court style. The TO's would be less, Joey and Sam sniping on transition 3's.. deadly. I have often wondered why they haven't played faster this year...They haven't played at the tempo they did last year, I know that. I thought there were at least a few occasions they could have and should have run against Creighton and for whatever reason didn't. Run, run, run..open up the floor, I promise you the TO's will go way down.
Porky agrees, at least in theory, and has been extremely frustrated about this team's nonexistent transition game. Not having GE available this season hasn't helped, but Porky doesn't have a lot of confidence in most of our players' ability to finish with authority off a fast break. Don't even want to ponder how many transition dunks this team has embarrassingly bounced off the rim and up to the arena ceiling!
Quote from: muguru on March 07, 2019, 02:36:41 PM
I honestly think the solution is for this team to run more...fast breaking, you don't need to think, you just react. And an open floor fits this teams skills better then a slow down half court style. The TO's would be less, Joey and Sam sniping on transition 3's.. deadly. I have often wondered why they haven't played faster this year...They haven't played at the tempo they did last year, I know that. I thought there were at least a few occasions they could have and should have run against Creighton and for whatever reason didn't. Run, run, run..open up the floor, I promise you the TO's will go way down.
guru, I love the idea of playing fast. Every team I have coached, that's what I've wanted my players to do. Keeps the D on its heels, creates easy scoring chances. So I'm with you here ... in theory.
To run, however, a team needs a few things. We have some of those things but lack many others.
1. Need to play good D. By and large we do this.
2. Need to rebound. We're third in the league in defensive rebounding percentage.
3. Need to have players who can catch the ball on the run and then know what to do with it. Theo and Morrow (especially Theo) can beat many opposing bigs down the floor, but neither has great hands or ball skills. Joey has skills but seems to be lacking confidence now.
4. Need to have team speed. We're lacking, especially when the Hausers are on the floor. The Hausers, especially Sam, are better athletes than some believe, but they are not fast. Even Markus and Sacar don't have big-time, break-away speed like many of the quick guards out there do.
5. Need to have good on-the-fly decision-makers who aren't turnover-prone. Ugh.
So if our lineup includes the Hausers (not fast), Theo/Morrow (few ball skills) and Markus (turnover-prone), we fall short in a lot of areas necessary to consistently push the ball. Cain also is weak with the ball, and Sacar is only OK. BB has not been around long enough for me to assess, but he hasn't screamed "great fast-break player" at me yet. Also, one major reason we're a good defensive rebounding team is that all five players, including Sacar and Markus, get to the boards pretty well. To get fast-breaks, you need to have a couple of players leaking out much of the time; if we try that, we'll likely get fewer rebounds.
Oh, and how many times do we
almost get a steal that looks like it will lead to an easy bucket ... only to fumble the ball and/or give it right back? I can remember many such occurrences.
I like the way you're thinking here, guru, but we don't have the ideal roster to be a "running team." Next year, with Koby and Greg (and Symir?) figures to offer more opportunities for it.
That being said, we probably can run at least a little more than we do. We do occasionally get Markus and Sam wide open for transition 3s, and those are often big momentum buckets. Would love to get Sacar, Bailey and Cain more breakaway dunks, too ... as long as they make 'em!
Quote from: Class71 on March 07, 2019, 08:12:10 PM
Marcus is our leading scorer and he deserves credit. He also is our leading TO artist with almost 28% of the team's total for the season. In the last 3 games everyone is turning the ball over more while Marcus managed to increase his share to 31% of the teams total.
I would say we know what the problem is. Marcus is an issue but the team is also going in a negative direction on TO's. So does Wojo focus on the problem?
You don't think Wojo is painfully aware of the problem? This team has been turning over all season. It will not change now. A point guard will not magically appear in NYC next week. JC unfortunately is a complete bust. We just have to hope we can keep the turns closer to a bakers dozen.