Zion got hurt. Mild knee sprain is the call. If he misses multiple games, does Markus have a chance at NCAA POY?
I think he's second at the moment. I think if MU wins BE and/or conf tourney, and Markus keeps doing what he's doing and drops another 40-50 burgah it gets close and Markus has a shot
It has been predetermined. Zion has too much pub already so I think it will be impossible unless Zion ends his season.
Quote from: BallBoy on February 21, 2019, 12:32:24 AM
It has been predetermined. Zion has too much pub already so I think it will be impossible unless Zion ends his season.
Likely right. If Zion shuts it down and Markus nukes is it possible? Lest we forget Markus is already the better player when you take into account size or difficulty getting what you want (that's selfish me tho)
Markus is not the better player. Zion will win the award whether he plays again or not because he deserves to win it.
Unless he slumps in the next 5 games, I expect MH to finish a distant second.
Quote from: DoctorV on February 21, 2019, 12:43:25 AM
Likely right. If Zion shuts it down and Markus nukes is it possible? Lest we forget Markus is already the better player when you take into account size or difficulty getting what you want (that's selfish me tho)
Bad take. Markus is our guy, but Zion is POY
It's possible Zion missing time will cost him the award, but I don't think Markus winning is a forgone conclusion. Grant Williams, RJ Barrett, and Cassius Winston or Carsen Edwards will all be in that mix.
If Duke struggles with Zion out, it only reinforces his worth.
Quote from: DoctorV on February 21, 2019, 12:43:25 AM
Likely right. If Zion shuts it down and Markus nukes is it possible? Lest we forget Markus is already the better player when you take into account size or difficulty getting what you want (that's selfish me tho)
Yeah, I don't think they handicap this based on player height.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 21, 2019, 07:23:18 AM
It's possible Zion missing time will cost him the award, but I don't think Markus winning is a forgone conclusion. Grant Williams, RJ Barrett, and Cassius Winston or Carsen Edwards will all be in that mix.
This.
We here are biased (and there's nothing wrong with that) and we have MU tunnel vision. As has been discussed in similar threads, Markus typically has not been listed in the top 3 of most POY prognostication articles. Many haven't listed him in the top 5. That doesn't mean those articles are right, it just means there are many candidates not named Markus Howard who are in the conversation big-time.
Sitting here today, I still think Zion wins it even if he doesn't come back. And if he does, and plays well in the last few games, it just builds upon his legend.
Quote from: MU82 on February 21, 2019, 08:05:20 AMWe here are biased (and there's nothing wrong with that) and we have MU tunnel vision. As has been discussed in similar threads, Markus typically has not been listed in the top 3 of most POY prognostication articles. Many haven't listed him in the top 5. That doesn't mean those articles are right, it just means there are many candidates not named Markus Howard who are in the conversation big-time.
It may seem like blasphemy here, but I don't think Howard is even a lock for First Team All American. For example, a list of Zion Williamson, Grant Williams, Rui Hachimura, Ja Morant, and Cassius Winston wouldn't surprise me at all.
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on February 21, 2019, 06:11:54 AM
Bad take. Markus is our guy, but Zion is POY
I get the love for Zion, he's a rare generational athlete. I guess my point with the comment is that Zion is a gifted athletic freak, he can roll out of bed and get a double double. He's rare in this case like Lebron or Gianni. Of course I know that shouldn't be held against him.
Markus on the other hand is the opposite of that. I guess I am skewed towards appreciating little guards that develop amazing games by getting creative because their size/athleticism didn't do them any favors.
Also, a legit argument can be made that you take Markus off MU and it's far worse than Zion off of Duke- that's the argument that many make when discussing mvp.
I know that Zion is amazing and that he's the established favorite in the media but we has a top 3 guy so it's worth discussing if he has a shot if the current favorite doesn't return or returns ineffective imo.
As for the others sure Markus has had some bad games too but how about that Carsen Edwards 4-24, 0-10 the other night? Williams numbers, while good, just don't compare. Ditto w hachimura, Winston, etc.
I think if MU wins the BE and MH continues in his current pace he is a lock for first team AA and second in POY race
Quote from: DoctorV on February 21, 2019, 08:34:13 AM
I get the love for Zion, he's a rare generational athlete. I guess my point with the comment is that Zion is a gifted athletic freak, he can roll out of bed and get a double double. He's rare in this case like Lebron or Gianni. Of course I know that shouldn't be held against him.
Markus on the other hand is the opposite of that. I guess I am skewed towards appreciating little guards that develop amazing games by getting creative because their size/athleticism didn't do them any favors.
Also, a legit argument can be made that you take Markus off MU and it's far worse than Zion off of Duke- that's the argument that many make when discussing mvp.
I know that Zion is amazing and that he's the established favorite in the media but we has a top 3 guy so it's worth discussing if he has a shot if the current favorite doesn't return or returns ineffective imo.
As for the others sure Markus has had some bad games too but how about that Carsen Edwards 4-24, 0-10 the other night? Williams numbers, while good, just don't compare. Ditto w hachimura, Winston, etc.
I think if MU wins the BE and MH continues in his current pace he is a lock for first team AA and second in POY race
I'll take the better basketball player regardless of size or athleticism. Isaiah Thomas was one of the top players in the NBA a couple years ago while being tiny relative to professional athletes, but I'm not taking him over LBJ or Giannis or AD. Being big, strong, and athletic is part of basketball.
Are we sure we can make the argument that Markus being unavailable for MU is a bigger problem than Zion being unavailable for Duke? Marquette went on the road and beat Georgetown, a team that just smoked Nova, without Markus. Duke just played at home without Zion and got smoked by a very good UNC team.
Nobody is going to look at a single game's performance and disqualify them from winning a season long award, at least I hope not. Markus would be out of the running with his 2 games against St. John's, no doubt, if that's the case.
I expect Grant Williams to finish 2nd in POY voting. I think Markus will be in the mix with Happ, Ja, Winston, and Edwards for 3rd.
Quote from: DoctorV on February 21, 2019, 08:34:13 AM
I guess I am skewed towards appreciating little guards that develop amazing games by getting creative because their size/athleticism didn't do them any favors.
I'm guessing your view is mostly influenced by you being a Marquette fan.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 21, 2019, 08:22:39 AM
It may seem like blasphemy here, but I don't think Howard is even a lock for First Team All American. For example, a list of Zion Williamson, Grant Williams, Rui Hachimura, Ja Morant, and Cassius Winston wouldn't surprise me at all.
Totally agree.
I hope Markus is a first-team AA, and I think the publicity he has received from his big-scoring games will help, but it absolutely is not a lock.
Quote from: MU82 on February 21, 2019, 08:49:30 AM
I'm guessing your view is mostly influenced by you being a Marquette fan.
Totally agree.
I hope Markus is a first-team AA, and I think the publicity he has received from his big-scoring games will help, but it absolutely is not a lock.
Don't think so. I enjoy watching guys like Steph curry light it up more so than Gianni dunk and score 80% of his points inside the paint.
Has nothing to do with Marquette. I just enjoy those guys who have to work their arse off to get theirs over the ones with the insane God given gifts.
Again I'm not arguing that Zion isn't gifted or saying he should be penalized for it, I'm just saying that I think it's harder for Markus to do what he's doing. From a purely entertainment standpoint, Williamson's dunks are out of this world but I'd still take Howard's 45/50 point games where he goes unconscious.
I completely disagree that Markus would be lucky to make the first team. I know we get to see him every game and we have to be careful about over valuing him but what he's doing against high major competition is remarkable.
Imo he wasn't very good last night and he still scored 28 on 6/13 from 3.
BTW a name that isn't often mentioned that I believe will enter the discussion if Zion misses time or isn't as effective is his teammate RJ Barrett. That dude can ball
Quote from: DoctorV on February 21, 2019, 09:13:25 AM
I completely disagree that Markus would be lucky to make the first team.
Which Scooper said Markus would be lucky to make first-team AA? I know it wasn't me.
brewski said it wasn't a lock that he would, and I agreed.
I disagree. He is a lock for 1st team.
ESPN currently has Markus #2 for POY (even though they ignore the BE ;D).
Quote from: tower912 on February 21, 2019, 07:36:03 AM
If Duke struggles with Zion out, it only reinforces his worth.
Which make me wonder how much we struggle if Markus is out like Zion?
Quote from: Jockey on February 21, 2019, 10:27:19 AM
I disagree. He is a lock for 1st team.
ESPN currently has Markus #2 for POY (even though they ignore the BE ;D).
I hope you're right.
Without markus we would be in the rest of the pack of the big east 6-7 losses minimum and easily more than that.
With the way sam and joey have slumped as of late i dont wanna see another g town / no markus game. Still cant believe they ground that win out
Quote from: Mike Deane's Seat Belt on February 21, 2019, 12:23:28 PM
Without markus we would be in the rest of the pack of the big east 6-7 losses minimum and easily more than that.
With the way sam and joey have slumped as of late i dont wanna see another g town / no markus game. Still cant believe they ground that win out
I think you're Right.
Quote from: Mike Deane's Seat Belt on February 21, 2019, 12:23:28 PM
Without markus we would be in the rest of the pack of the big east 6-7 losses minimum and easily more than that.
With the way sam and joey have slumped as of late i dont wanna see another g town / no markus game. Still cant believe they ground that win out
Eh you never know.. I want to believe we would still be top 25 without him. I hate thinking were only ranked cuz of him. Live and die by thy markus
Oh and Barret is a lock for first team as well
Quote from: Johnny B on February 21, 2019, 12:52:00 PM
Eh you never know.. I want to believe we would still be top 25 without him. I hate thinking were only ranked cuz of him. Live and die by thy markus
While it may be true that we wouldn't be ranked without Markus, it may also be true that we wouldn't be ranked without Sam or without Joey, or without Sacar, or without John. So I don't think it's fair to say we are only ranked because of Markus.
The strength of our team is the team.
Quote from: Johnny B on February 21, 2019, 12:52:34 PM
Oh and Barret is a lock for first team as well
I truly think the only lock for First Team, and this assumes he comes back healthy & productive, is Zion. Seriously, as far as top-level collegiate talent, this is one of the best years I can remember in a long time. Maybe not a super-deep draft class, but phenomenal collegiate players. Zion, Barrett, Howard, Morant, Hachimura, Williams, Winston, Edwards, Happ, Schofield, Washington, Lawson, Hunter, Clarke, and Caroline could all put together strong finishes and warrant legitimate First Team consideration.