MU has lost 3 times. What happened in the 3 losses that was common?
1. Not at Fiserv. Hey, MU has bounced back and has played well on the road since the SJU game.
2. The other teams were faster than MU.
3. IU and SJU both spread MU out with some 5-out looks that made it next to impossible to help.
4. Markus did not have good games. Long defenders and lots of them.
5. Turnovers. The other team forced turnovers. MU wasn't able to recover from the rut and go on a run of hitting shots.
Kansas, to me, feels like an outlier. MU won the first half, played as bad as they could have possible played for 10 minutes, and then played them even for the last 10 minutes, but couldn't get the big stop or big hoop to make it interesting. IU and SJU were just beat downs.
MU has an opportunity to avenge the SJU loss. I will be curious to see what adjustments Wojo makes and if SJU can get out of their tailspin.
Going forward, fear the speedy 5 out teams with an abundance of big guards who pressure the ballhandlers. Which teams fit that criteria?
Virginia tech would be a very interesting matchup.
Held nc state today...
Guards were 0 for 17
Quote from: Boston Warrior on February 02, 2019, 04:13:36 PM
Virginia tech would be a very interesting matchup.
Held nc state today...
Guards were 0 for 17
Nc State sucks. They have 1 win over a tourney team...Auburn who also has minimal wins
They have nice computer numbers because they smoked a bunch of 300+ teams.
VT is banged up big time and still won that game
Virginia tech Marquette would still be a great match up
Maybe Cain gets some run on Tuesday to mitigate some of the 5 out stuff SJU runs. Game might be too fast for him, but Theo may be limited in minutes due to his perimeter defensive limitations.
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on February 02, 2019, 05:01:51 PM
Maybe Cain gets some run on Tuesday to mitigate some of the 5 out stuff SJU runs. Game might be too fast for him, but Theo may be limited in minutes due to his perimeter defensive limitations.
Cain and Elliot had very good games against SJU at the BC last year.
I think a lineup of Markus, Bailey, Cain, Joey, Theo could be good in stretches against St. John's. Enough offense to score coupled with a lot of length and strength. Though it would probably require some point Joey at times, but we've already seen that can work.
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on February 02, 2019, 05:01:51 PM
Maybe Cain gets some run on Tuesday to mitigate some of the 5 out stuff SJU runs. Game might be too fast for him, but Theo may be limited in minutes due to his perimeter defensive limitations.
Have we not reached the point yet where we obligately need to play Theo as much as possible regardless? The primary reason we are rotating Theo out (IMO) is to spread the fouls around.
Others probably spent more time thinking about this, but what situations would we actually prefer to have Morrow or even Heldt on the floor?
Quote from: D'Lo Brown on February 02, 2019, 05:30:51 PM
Have we not reached the point yet where we obligately need to play Theo as much as possible regardless? The primary reason we are rotating Theo out (IMO) is to spread the fouls around.
Others probably spent more time thinking about this, but what situations would we actually prefer to have Morrow or even Heldt on the floor?
Matt for FTs. And I known I'm one of the only ones that thinks this, but Ed is only 6-7, I don't see why he can't play along side Theo as a true PF. I trust Wojo to make the right moves and with StJs roster the way it is, I don't think it'll happen against them, but I certainly think there are situations where it would work.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 02, 2019, 05:36:35 PM
Matt for FTs. And I known I'm one of the only ones that thinks this, but Ed is only 6-7, I don't see why he can't play along side Theo as a true PF. I trust Wojo to make the right moves and with StJs roster the way it is, I don't think it'll happen against them, but I certainly think there are situations where it would work.
That really limits the sets Wojo can run. A lot sets with 2 guys in the corner, Markus getting a high ball screen from the big, and Sam popping out from the FT line to the three point line.
Spacing is the name of the game. An Ed and Theo lineup takes away driving lanes and doesn't have enough shooting to make the defense pay for helping.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on February 02, 2019, 06:06:55 PM
That really limits the sets Wojo can run. A lot sets with 2 guys in the corner, Markus getting a high ball screen from the big, and Sam popping out from the FT line to the three point line.
Spacing is the name of the game. An Ed and Theo lineup takes away driving lanes and doesn't have enough shooting to make the defense pay for helping.
I don't disagree, but wouldn't it be nice to really let Theo loose going for blocks, and knowing that we have Ed there boxing out too?
At the end of the day it comes down to matchups. StJ would be a terrible match up to try it on, but that doesn't mean that there wont be a worthwhile matchup in the next 2 years to attempt it.
Quote from: tower912 on February 02, 2019, 03:43:10 PM
3. IU and SJU both spread MU out with some 5-out looks that made it next to impossible to help.
Could someone more X and O savvy than myself please elaborate on this? Is it as simple as an offense that keeps all 5 out around the perimeter in order to open up the middle and spread it all out, or is that too simplistic?
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 02, 2019, 05:36:35 PM
Matt for FTs. And I known I'm one of the only ones that thinks this, but Ed is only 6-7, I don't see why he can't play along side Theo as a true PF. I trust Wojo to make the right moves and with StJs roster the way it is, I don't think it'll happen against them, but I certainly think there are situations where it would work.
Ed can't shoot outside would be a big liability on offense
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 02, 2019, 06:33:28 PM
I don't disagree, but wouldn't it be nice to really let Theo loose going for blocks, and knowing that we have Ed there boxing out too?
At the end of the day it comes down to matchups. StJ would be a terrible match up to try it on, but that doesn't mean that there wont be a worthwhile matchup in the next 2 years to attempt it.
We will see. I think Matt and Ed played together for short time against somebody (Georgetown?). I personally prefer a shooter at the 4 as much as possible.
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on February 02, 2019, 05:01:51 PM
Maybe Cain gets some run on Tuesday to mitigate some of the 5 out stuff SJU runs. Game might be too fast for him, but Theo may be limited in minutes due to his perimeter defensive limitations.
I re-watched the Buffalo game. MU was switching on every screen, and Ed was getting absolutely killed. Theo, OTOH, did a very respectable job on the perimeter, really quick feet. It was night and day to Morrow.
Quote from: Carl on February 02, 2019, 07:14:03 PM
Could someone more X and O savvy than myself please elaborate on this? Is it as simple as an offense that keeps all 5 out around the perimeter in order to open up the middle and spread it all out, or is that too simplistic?
I'm not savvy, but:
https://www.basketballforcoaches.com/5-out-motion-offense/
Quote from: tower912 on February 02, 2019, 03:43:10 PM
5. Turnovers. The other team forced turnovers. MU wasn't able to recover from the rut and go on a run of hitting shots.
Meh. We've had eight games this season in which our turnover rate was greater than 20%. None of those were losses.
In all three of our losses, our turnover rate has been lower than our season average.
Quote from: Newsdreams on February 02, 2019, 07:14:11 PM
Ed can't shoot outside would be a big liability on offense
Other than HHH, minutes have largely been distributed by defensive ability. I would trade the offensive production for the uptick in defense, should it come to that.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on February 02, 2019, 07:28:28 PM
We will see. I think Matt and Ed played together for short time against somebody (Georgetown?). I personally prefer a shooter at the 4 as much as possible.
Ed was hurt for Gtown. He played with Matt for the last 90 seconds of one of our cupcakes.
I'm not trying to go full Ners obsessions with the idea of Ed playing along side one of our other bigs, I'm just more than a little surprised that a 6-7 player, that cited playing too much center as one of the reasons for transferring, has only spent about 90 seconds playing forward. Again it's situational, PC for example, out-rebounded us by 12. Part of that was our dreadful shooting in the first half, but defensive rebounds ended up square, with the entire differential coming in the 15-3 offensive rebounding discrepancy. I think that would have been a good game to try throwing 2 bigs in there. Not complaining with the overall results, because unlike Ners I can fully admit that Wojo knows more than me, I've just been surprised that we've barely seen it, especially early in the season after games were in hand.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 02, 2019, 09:01:08 PM
Other than HHH, minutes have largely been distributed by defensive ability. I would trade the offensive production for the uptick in defense, should it come to that.
Ed was hurt for Gtown. He played with Matt for the last 90 seconds of one of our cupcakes.
I'm not trying to go full Ners obsessions with the idea of Ed playing along side one of our other bigs, I'm just more than a little surprised that a 6-7 player, that cited playing too much center as one of the reasons for transferring, has only spent about 90 seconds playing forward. Again it's situational, PC for example, out-rebounded us by 12. Part of that was our dreadful shooting in the first half, but defensive rebounds ended up square, with the entire differential coming in the 15-3 offensive rebounding discrepancy. I think that would have been a good game to try throwing 2 bigs in there. Not complaining with the overall results, because unlike Ners I can fully admit that Wojo knows more than me, I've just been surprised that we've barely seen it, especially early in the season after games were in hand.
Theoretically I'm fine with playing Ed and Theo or Matt together except for the somewhat difficult fact that Joey and/or Sam go to the bench to make it happen
The reason Morrow played "too much center" at Nebraska is that, as Wojo has discovered (or maybe knew all along), Morrow is a center. An undersized center, height-wise, but a center nonetheless.
Not only is the combined shooting range of Morrow and Theo about 3 feet, but there would be defensive limitations to playing them together too.
I also am one who thinks Theo can hold his own against the 5-out teams. It's nice to have a rim protector when we get spread out and the opponent has driving lanes.
As for the 2 lopsided losses, I don't see why anybody should be especially concerned. Every once in a while, a game just gets away from a team. Happened this season to the likes of UNC, Kentucky, Michigan, Va Tech, Nova, etc. Happened once or twice a year (at least) to some of Buzz's good MU teams. The snowball just gets rolling downhill, and there's no way to get out of its way. It happens. We're a lot better team now, too.
Quote from: MU82 on February 02, 2019, 11:00:42 PM
As for the 2 lopsided losses, I don't see why anybody should be especially concerned. Every once in a while, a game just gets away from a team. Happened this season to the likes of UNC, Kentucky, Michigan, Va Tech, Nova, etc. Happened once or twice a year (at least) to some of Buzz's good MU teams. The snowball just gets rolling downhill, and there's no way to get out of its way. It happens. We're a lot better team now, too.
Agree.
And if anyone wants another common factor in the two bad losses: IU was our
first true road game all season, and SJU was our
first true road game in 6 weeks. The good news is that this team has adapted and had some nice road wins of late. We have proven we can start slow and come back (@Creighton and @X), win a tight back and forth (@GTown) and win going away (@ Butler).
We got this.
Quote from: Carl on February 02, 2019, 07:14:03 PM
Could someone more X and O savvy than myself please elaborate on this? Is it as simple as an offense that keeps all 5 out around the perimeter in order to open up the middle and spread it all out, or is that too simplistic?
It means that an offensive team plays with no post, but with five players on the outside who are at least a threat to hit an outside shot. If Marquette guards them close, they are not quick enough so SJU attacks the basket. With five shooters, a post like Theo is either wondering too far from the basket and can't protect the rim, or they are taking the chance that his guy isn't hitting shots.
Quote from: Jay Bee on February 02, 2019, 08:37:43 PM
Meh. We've had eight games this season in which our turnover rate was greater than 20%. None of those were losses.
In all three of our losses, our turnover rate has been lower than our season average.
That is why it is last on my list. I almost didn't add it. I think is AN issue from time to time, but I don't believe it is crippling.
In general, we need to take care of the ball better. We want more productive possessions, and we want our opponent to have fewer of 'em. Signed, Capt. Obvious!
6. Thy scored more points than we did. ;D
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 02, 2019, 11:44:46 PM
Agree.
And if anyone wants another common factor in the two bad losses: IU was our first true road game all season, and SJU was our first true road game in 6 weeks. The good news is that this team has adapted and had some nice road wins of late. We have proven we can start slow and come back (@Creighton and @X), win a tight back and forth (@GTown) and win going away (@ Butler).
We got this.
Correct. I think we're maybe reaching for commonalities that aren't really there. I think it's as simple as IU and SJU were the toughest road games we've had all season, and they were also the first two we played.
I think the guys have gotten better playing on the road, but honestly X, Creighton, GTown, and Butler just aren't good teams.
Quote from: GrimmReaper33 on February 03, 2019, 08:22:09 AM
Correct. I think we're maybe reaching for commonalities that aren't really there. I think it's as simple as IU and SJU were the toughest road games we've had all season, and they were also the first two we played.
I think the guys have gotten better playing on the road, but honestly X, Creighton, GTown, and Butler just aren't good teams.
Agree with that...but frankly SJU really isn't any better. They are right in the middle of them in the standings at 4-5, and have already lost to two of the teams that we've beaten away from the Forvm (GTown at home and Butler at Hinkle).
I know Ponds is a handful, but I still believe our loss last month was an aberration....
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 03, 2019, 08:38:52 AM
I still believe our loss last month was an aberration....
I don't think it was an aberration at all. It's college basketball. Not easy to win on the road.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 02, 2019, 05:36:35 PM
Matt for FTs. And I known I'm one of the only ones that thinks this, but Ed is only 6-7, I don't see why he can't play along side Theo as a true PF. I trust Wojo to make the right moves and with StJs roster the way it is, I don't think it'll happen against them, but I certainly think there are situations where it would work.
Ed maybe 6-7 but offensively hus range is layup n closer
Quote from: MU82 on February 03, 2019, 03:16:26 PM
I don't think it was an aberration at all. It's college basketball. Not easy to win on the road.
The last three years (this season and the previous 2) for whatever reason, the SJU-MU games have not been competitive, with the home team winning easily each time. Hopefully the the trend continues tomorrow. But I agree with the opening post that St. John's fits a type, athletic with big quick guards, that seems like will give us trouble.
Quote from: MU82 on February 03, 2019, 03:16:26 PM
I don't think it was an aberration at all. It's college basketball. Not easy to win on the road.
I wasn't referring simply to the fact that we lost on the road. You're right - it happens. I was referring to the fact that SJU manhandled us, and the resulting overemphasis (IMHO) by many here of playing style similarities between SJU and IU.
In any event, I stand by my primary point: The most significant commonality between the IU and SJU games was the first road game [of the season/in six weeks] factor.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 04, 2019, 09:41:53 AM
I wasn't referring simply to the fact that we lost on the road. You're right - it happens. I was referring to the fact that SJU manhandled us, and the resulting overemphasis (IMHO) by many here of playing style similarities between SJU and IU.
In any event, I stand by my primary point: The most significant commonality between the IU and SJU games was the first road game [of the season/in six weeks] factor.
Ah ... got it.
Quote from: tower912 on February 02, 2019, 03:43:10 PM
MU has lost 3 times. What happened in the 3 losses that was common?
1. Not at Fiserv. Hey, MU has bounced back and has played well on the road since the SJU game.
2. The other teams were faster than MU.
3. IU and SJU both spread MU out with some 5-out looks that made it next to impossible to help.
4. Markus did not have good games. Long defenders and lots of them.
5. Turnovers. The other team forced turnovers. MU wasn't able to recover from the rut and go on a run of hitting shots.
Kansas, to me, feels like an outlier. MU won the first half, played as bad as they could have possible played for 10 minutes, and then played them even for the last 10 minutes, but couldn't get the big stop or big hoop to make it interesting. IU and SJU were just beat downs.
MU has an opportunity to avenge the SJU loss. I will be curious to see what adjustments Wojo makes and if SJU can get out of their tailspin.
Going forward, fear the speedy 5 out teams with an abundance of big guards who pressure the ballhandlers. Which teams fit that criteria?
2, 3, 4, 5 apply.
Quote from: tower912 on February 06, 2019, 07:07:12 AM
2, 3, 4, 5 apply.
We only had 9 turnovers to their 10. Points off turnovers maybe after how dreadful we were in that category in the first half, but we valued the ball fine considering how much speed and length StJ had.
If we play St. John's again...
I would like to see more of the smaller line up. Cain would be a possibility.
I thought their speed is more of the problem then the length. More posting and paint touches. Our shots appeared rushed.
I would also like to see more of a 1 3 1 on our defense or different match up zones
Running 2 people at ponds was effective when they did it.
Quote from: Boston Warrior on February 06, 2019, 07:18:56 AM
If we play St. John's again...
I would like to see more of the smaller line up. Cain would be a possibility.
I thought their speed is more of the problem then the length. More posting and paint touches. Our shots appeared rushed.
I would also like to see more of a 1 3 1 on our defense or different match up zones
Running 2 people at ponds was effective when they did it.
I'd like MU's chances if we match up again. In the 2nd half it finally felt like we matched STJ's intensity and the results were pretty good, other than Ponds they seemed pretty lost. If we understand that and play that way for more than 15 minutes I think MU wins comfortably.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 06, 2019, 07:18:18 AM
We only had 9 turnovers to their 10. Points off turnovers maybe after how dreadful we were in that category in the first half, but we valued the ball fine considering how much speed and length StJ had.
You make a valid point. The impact of Clark picking Sam clean and going down to hit a pull up 3 and the impact of the stolen inbounds pass leading to an uncontested lay up on the other end while the team stood and watched had a more emotional impact on me and made me not think of the actual number.
Sam, Joey, and Markus combining to go 11-36 impacted the game more.
Quote from: tower912 on February 06, 2019, 07:55:26 AM
You make a valid point. The impact of Clark picking Sam clean and going down to hit a pull up 3 and the impact of the stolen inbounds pass leading to an uncontested lay up on the other end while the team stood and watched had a more emotional impact on me and made me not think of the actual number.
Sam, Joey, and Markus combining to go 11-36 impacted the game more.
The fact that when Markus picked Ponds clean in the first half, we had a 2 on 1 and got nothing out of it didn't help. I don't know what the points off TOs was, but I doubt we won that.
At one point, it was 10-0 for SJU. I don't know the final tally.
Quote from: tower912 on February 06, 2019, 07:55:26 AM
You make a valid point. The impact of Clark picking Sam clean and going down to hit a pull up 3 and the impact of the stolen inbounds pass leading to an uncontested lay up on the other end while the team stood and watched had a more emotional impact on me and made me not think of the actual number.
Sam, Joey, and Markus combining to go 11-36 impacted the game more.
Clark went scoreless, so it had to be someone else.
Doh, and thank you.
Quote from: tower912 on February 06, 2019, 08:02:53 AM
At one point, it was 10-0 for SJU. I don't know the final tally.
At one point it was 17-0. I also don't know the final tally.