Markus continues to prove he is worthy of National Player of the Year.
Zion is an impressive physical specimen but he has a huge safety net in that his team is loaded.
Markus needs to step up every game without the same type of supporting cast and yet he delivers big time.
So to my way of thinking Markus > Zion.
Discuss.
Joey is a top 20 three point shooter and Sam is close to him. Also some of the best free throw shooters in conference/country. Big men down low that clean up any defensive mistakes. I'd say Markus has a damn good supporting cast
Yeah we need him every game. The goose egg in 3min vs Georgetown really helped us. Not slighting Markus only saying there's a solid cast around him
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 31, 2019, 02:50:34 AM
Yeah we need him every game. The goose egg in 3min vs Georgetown really helped us. Not slighting Markus only saying there's a solid cast around him
We won a putrid slopfest against a very bad team. Dont get me wrong there was a beauty in it. But unlike last night when Markus went out, Chartouney didnt show up and it was ugly.
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on January 31, 2019, 05:24:27 AM
We won a putrid slopfest against a very bad team. Dont get me wrong there was a beauty in it. But unlike last night when Markus went out, Chartouney didnt show up and it was ugly.
putrid slopfest or not, a W is a W and Markus wasn't needed for it. The statement wasn't "we need him to win beautifully"
My only point is the supporting cast around Markus is solid but not great. To the OPs point Duke goes into Georgetown without Zion n blows their doors off.
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on January 31, 2019, 05:50:50 AM
My only point is the supporting cast around Markus is solid but not great. To the OPs point Duke goes into Georgetown without Zion n blows their doors off.
Sam, Joey, and Theo are just "solid" at what they do?
Not sure about that.
I am not saying Sam, Joey, and Theo are NBA players. But every one of them has a good chance of playing in the NBA. That is a darn good "supporting cast."
I will allow that after the top 4, there is a drop-off compared to Duke (or Kentucky, Kansas, and other blue bloods), but that is to be expected at this point in the program's development.
But I do agree Markus is better than Zion.
Quote from: warriorfred on January 31, 2019, 06:42:05 AM
I am not saying Sam, Joey, and Theo are NBA players. But every one of them has a good chance of playing in the NBA. That is a darn good "supporting cast."
I will allow that after the top 4, there is a drop-off compared to Duke (or Kentucky, Kansas, and other blue bloods), but that is to be expected at this point in the program's development.
Theo has zero shot of the NBA. He's like 6-9, that'd make him a PF in the NBA and not even a tall one. The days of back to the basket power forwards are long gone with the expectation being that you can stretch the floor. Theo is a good center for college basketball but not an NBA player in this era.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 31, 2019, 06:45:47 AM
Theo has zero shot of the NBA. He's like 6-9, that'd make him a PF in the NBA and not even a tall one. The days of back to the basket power forwards are long gone with the expectation being that you can stretch the floor. Theo is a good center for college basketball but not an NBA player in this era.
I don't agree with this.
Brother Hermie, let's not get carried away here!
I don't see enough basketball to compare POY candidates. I see enough to know Markus is someone special and the spark plug that fires our team. He arguably is in the same class as Butch Lee, DWade and the Dream in our history. And I'm a Codger Scooper -- I've seen 'em all.
Just don't think he's a POY but I hope I'm wrong.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on January 31, 2019, 06:57:32 AM
I don't agree with this.
What aspect? That he can't play center in the nba or that he can't play PF in the NBA or that you need to stretch the floor as a PF in the nba now?
A 6-9 guy with 2-foot shooting range? Theo might have had a chance to be an NBA team's 15th man 25 years ago, but not in today's league. I say that not to disparage Theo at all. College ball is filled with fine players who don't quite have the skill package necessary to play in the NBA. Hell, some top-5 draft picks can't make it. Markus might not make it. I am 99.9% sure that Theo won't make it.
As for the subject of this thread, POY is in great part hype-driven. And for all the pub Markus has received for his 53-point game and other big games, Zion is Zion. He had a leg up on POY before Duke Madness in October, and has done nothing but meet expectations for an outstanding team. Don't forget that the vote is taken before the tournament, too, so it's not as if a Kemba-like NCAA run could lift Markus further. Hard to imagine any player whose name begins with anything but Z winning the award.
Markus has two things that will keep him from the NPOY.
ESPN and Duke.
Those are impossible things to overcome. Zion had the hype back in November and Markus has just started getting some pub the last month. Markus is on FS1 and Duke is on ESPN all the time.
If NCAA BB had an awards show for the NPOY like the Heisman, I think Markus would be invited to the Downtown Athletic Club, but Zion wrapped up the award with his 360 breakaway dunk a couple weeks back.
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on January 31, 2019, 05:24:27 AM
We won a putrid slopfest against a very bad team. Dont get me wrong there was a beauty in it. But unlike last night when Markus went out, Chartouney didnt show up and it was ugly.
I don't think it was a putrid slopfest at all. We started poorly and Butler is a mediocre (to be kind) team, so it was 9-7 midway through the first half.
We started making shots and taking care of the ball, and the better team eventually turned it into a laugher. I came away impressed with one team, and it wasn't the putrid one.
Quote from: MU82 on January 31, 2019, 07:58:05 AM
I don't think it was a putrid slopfest at all. We started poorly and Butler is a mediocre (to be kind) team, so it was 9-7 midway through the first half.
We started making shots and taking care of the ball, and the better team eventually turned it into a laugher. I came away impressed with one team, and it wasn't the putrid one.
He referred to gtown game as a putrid slopfest. Not last night.
On a side note, all I can really say is...Oh Myron
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/page/woodenwatch013119/watch-ethan-happ
OK. I can also say Happ is on a torrid scoring pace over the last three games
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 31, 2019, 06:45:47 AM
Theo has zero shot of the NBA. He's like 6-9, that'd make him a PF in the NBA and not even a tall one. The days of back to the basket power forwards are long gone with the expectation being that you can stretch the floor. Theo is a good center for college basketball but not an NBA player in this era.
If he can practice and hit a corner 3 he could play for 10 years. Not saying that's gonna happen, but its not as crazy as it sounds, really all he would need to get drafted.
Quote from: JakeBarnes on January 31, 2019, 08:01:00 AM
He referred to gtown game as a putrid slopfest. Not last night.
My bad.
Sand-Knit: My bad.
Quote from: LAMUfan on January 31, 2019, 08:18:48 AM
If he can practice and hit a corner 3 he could play for 10 years. Not saying that's gonna happen, but its not as crazy as it sounds, really all he would need to get drafted.
would need to show the ability to put it on the floor and drive from the wing when that look isn't there, and guard a stretch 4 on the wing as well, I'm not saying it's impossible but I'd be willing to bet a fancy bottle of scotch or beer that it doesn't happen.
Zion has the hype machine. Theo won't play in the league without a jump shot.
Quote from: lawdog77 on January 31, 2019, 08:16:29 AM
On a side note, all I can really say is...Oh Myron
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/page/woodenwatch013119/watch-ethan-happ
The best he can say about Markus is that he's scored over 23 points in his last four games? Or maybe he won't print Markus's scoring average or FT average because both are higher than his "contenders."
Myron gonna Myron
I read this article and kept wondering if Benny wrote it pretending to be Myron.
Brando and Raf compared Markus to Chris Jackson when he was at LSU (later Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf).
I heard that one before but forgot it until Brando/Raf reminded me. A pretty good comparison IMHO. I like Kemba as a comparison, too.
Quote from: tower912 on January 31, 2019, 08:30:49 AM
Zion has the hype machine. Theo won't play in the league without a jump shot.
I wonder when Marquette ratchets up the PR machine for Marcus' All-American and POY candidacy. Schools do this really hard for the Heisman. Wonder why Marquette has not done so yet.
MU82
The Chris Jackson comparison is a good one. I told my boys that last season, but they had no idea who I was talking about. In all my years of watching MU play, I have never seen anything like his ability to score points. He is a great shooter, but better scorer.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 31, 2019, 07:16:37 AM
What aspect? That he can't play center in the nba or that he can't play PF in the NBA or that you need to stretch the floor as a PF in the nba now?
I am just saying I believe he has a shot at the NBA. He's a tremendous defensive player.
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on January 31, 2019, 07:53:34 AM
Markus has two things that will keep him from the NPOY.
ESPN and Duke.
Those are impossible things to overcome. Zion had the hype back in November and Markus has just started getting some pub the last month. Markus is on FS1 and Duke is on ESPN all the time.
If NCAA BB had an awards show for the NPOY like the Heisman, I think Markus would be invited to the Downtown Athletic Club, but Zion wrapped up the award with his 360 breakaway dunk a couple weeks back.
I think the biggest thing going against Markus is the down year for the Big East. I have a feeling that for many people, the non-conference wins are all but forgotten now that we're in the middle of conference play. And with just 2 more games against ranked opponents for the rest of the year, it can be easier to discount his success from here on out.
Markus is great, prolific scorer and glad we have him, but I remember this guy who was the greatest scoring machine ever. Watched him play all 4 games in the 1970 NIT.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Maravich
Warrior69
Major, major Pistol Pete fan here, but Howard is the greatest, efficient scorer I have seen in a long time. He can score a ton without hoisting up 30-40 shots a game.
On a sidebar, my Grandma had Pistol at youth camp in Libertyville, IL when was a boy. My Aunt will randomly send me Pistol videos and interviews to remind me of his greatness. Us Serbs stick together.
Quote from: TheGym on January 31, 2019, 11:38:52 AM
I wonder when Marquette ratchets up the PR machine for Marcus' All-American and POY candidacy. Schools do this really hard for the Heisman. Wonder why Marquette has not done so yet.
Cause Happ, Zion, RJ Barrett, Hachimura, Culver, and others will be gone next year.
Markus has a REALLY good chance to be the preseason pick for POY. Throw your weight and resources behind him next year when it won't be wasted behind the Zion Hype Locamotive
Quote from: JWags85 on January 31, 2019, 05:25:45 PM
Cause Happ, Zion, RJ Barrett, Hachimura, Culver, and others will be gone next year.
Markus has a REALLY good chance to be the preseason pick for POY. Throw your weight and resources behind him next year when it won't be wasted behind the Zion Hype Locamotive
No doubt there will be one or more freshman coming in use gets the Zion hype machine from pre-season on.
Quote from: mug644 on January 31, 2019, 05:29:44 PM
No doubt there will be one or more freshman coming in use gets the Zion hype machine from pre-season on.
They're really waiting to start it then because Zion had stuff going for at least a year prior, I haven't heard of any of the top 5 recruits for 2019. It's possible I just live in a different country
Top 25 players in college basketball
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/insider/story/_/id/25888810/the-top-25-players-college-basketball
1 Zion
2 Ja Morant
3 Happ
4 Grant Williams
5 Markus
6 Winston - MSU
7 Culver
8 Clarke - Gongaza
9 Lawson - KU
10 Martin - Nevada
Quote from: Rick Majerus' Towel on February 01, 2019, 02:06:54 AM
Top 25 players in college basketball
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/insider/story/_/id/25888810/the-top-25-players-college-basketball
1 Zion
2 Ja Morant
3 Happ
4 Grant Williams
5 Markus
6 Winston - MSU
7 Culver
8 Clarke - Clarke
9 Lawson - KU
10 Martin - Nevada
I acknowledge that Happ has had a more accomplished college career than Sam. But I would be willing to put money on Sam having a longer NBA career than Happ.
Quote from: Rick Majerus' Towel on February 01, 2019, 02:06:54 AM
Top 25 players in college basketball
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/insider/story/_/id/25888810/the-top-25-players-college-basketball
1 Zion
2 Ja Morant
3 Happ
4 Grant Williams
5 Markus
6 Winston - MSU
7 Culver
8 Clarke - Clarke
9 Lawson - KU
10 Martin - Nevada
Clarke plays for Clarke? I didn't know Clarke college had gone D1!
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on January 31, 2019, 07:53:34 AM
Markus has two things that will keep him from the NPOY.
ESPN and Duke.
Those are impossible things to overcome. Zion had the hype back in November and Markus has just started getting some pub the last month. Markus is on FS1 and Duke is on ESPN all the time.
If NCAA BB had an awards show for the NPOY like the Heisman, I think Markus would be invited to the Downtown Athletic Club, but Zion wrapped up the award with his 360 breakaway dunk a couple weeks back.
Excellent post-you hit it on the head with your first 11 words. Even Ethan happ gets mentioned in this article while placing Markus at the bottom of their list. With the exception of Zion, none of the rest of these guys standout like Markus but...
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/page/woodenwatch013119/watch-ethan-happ
The fact that Carson Edwards is not in the top 10 means I can't take this list seriously. Easily top 5 if not the best.
Quote from: HowardsWorld on February 01, 2019, 08:06:07 AM
The fact that Carson Edwards is not in the top 10 means I can't take this list seriously. Easily top 5 if not the best.
FWIW, he's not alone. Our own Auburnmufan's (can't remember his exact handle) value add system ranks him 16th.
http://www.valueaddbasketball.com/
Some of the posts in this thread are hilarious. The idea that theo Could magically develop an adequate three point nba jumper Is just laughably silly. Guys like him shaq dwight howard and Derrick Wilson can throw up 500 threes a day and it ain't ever gonna happen. Absolutely ridiculous.
Back to the premise of the article.
Zion is better and will be POY and the #1 pick in the draft. I would put Howard, Morant, and Happ, and Williams in a photo finish for 2nd.
ESPN has nothing to do with my opinion and they would lose all credibility if they DIDN'T have Zion as the leader.
Quote from: Jockey on February 03, 2019, 02:49:20 PM
Back to the premise of the article.
Zion is better and will be POY and the #1 pick in the draft. I would put Howard, Morant, and Happ, and Williams in a photo finish for 2nd.
ESPN has nothing to do with my opinion and they would lose all credibility if they DIDN'T have Zion as the leader.
Yep
Quote from: Jockey on February 03, 2019, 02:49:20 PM
Back to the premise of the article.
Zion is better and will be POY and the #1 pick in the draft. I would put Howard, Morant, and Happ, and Williams in a photo finish for 2nd.
ESPN has nothing to do with my opinion and they would lose all credibility if they DIDN'T have Zion as the leader.
What Zion is doing this year, is what Lebron would have looked like if he had played a year in college. That is why he is going to be the #1 pick, and why he is POY.
Quote from: Johnny B on February 03, 2019, 02:27:13 PM
Some of the posts in this thread are hilarious. The idea that theo Could magically develop an adequate three point nba jumper Is just laughably silly. Guys like him shaq dwight howard and Derrick Wilson can throw up 500 threes a day and it ain't ever gonna happen. Absolutely ridiculous.
Did you watch John Henson try to shoot a jumper outside of 15 feet prior to this year? How about Brook Lopez having 3 total made 3 pointers in his first 8 years in the NBA and then made 134 in his 9th year and will have more than that by the All Star break in his 11th year now? What about Marc Gasol, who averaged 1.2 makes per season his first 8 years in the NBA and then made 104 in his 9th season?
I don't think Theo will ever be a 3 point shooter, but to pretend that it's impossible for a center who's never shown the ability to develop a 3 point shot is just wrong.
It's espn, what did u expect! We know how special Marcus is, hands down one of the best players in college today!
Quote from: wadesworld on February 03, 2019, 03:46:06 PM
Did you watch John Henson try to shoot a jumper outside of 15 feet prior to this year? How about Brook Lopez having 3 total made 3 pointers in his first 8 years in the NBA and then made 134 in his 9th year and will have more than that by the All Star break in his 11th year now? What about Marc Gasol, who averaged 1.2 makes per season his first 8 years in the NBA and then made 104 in his 9th season?
I don't think Theo will ever be a 3 point shooter, but to pretend that it's impossible for a center who's never shown the ability to develop a 3 point shot is just wrong.
He's still 6-9, meaning he'd have to hit at a clip expected of Powerforwards and Smallforwards not expected by a center developing an outside crap suddenly. It's simply not happening. It's like the people that thought Davante or Rowsey had a shot in the NBA, was never going to happen
Quote from: MU82 on February 01, 2019, 07:17:10 AM
I acknowledge that Happ has had a more accomplished college career than Sam. But I would be willing to put money on Sam having a longer NBA career than Happ.
Sam can have a better NBA career than Happ by getting drafted or signing for a season with anyone. Happ is a collegiate juggernaut but today's NBA has not place for 6'10 PF with no offensive range outside of 5 feet, who are slow of foot, and not a defensive game changer. His post fundamentals are great. But he has no NBA future whatsoever.
Quote from: Rick Majerus' Towel on February 01, 2019, 02:06:54 AM
Top 25 players in college basketball
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/insider/story/_/id/25888810/the-top-25-players-college-basketball
1 Zion
2 Ja Morant
3 Happ
4 Grant Williams
5 Markus
6 Winston - MSU
7 Culver
8 Clarke - Gongaza
9 Lawson - KU
10 Martin - Nevada
This can't be right. The SJU fans assured me Markus was an overrated bum and Ponds was the clear best player in the BE, a better scorer and he plays defense (unlike Markus which is why he didn't go to Zona...defense :o)
Quote from: forgetful on February 03, 2019, 03:39:30 PM
What Zion is doing this year, is what Lebron would have looked like if he had played a year in college. That is why he is going to be the #1 pick, and why he is POY.
Zion < LeBron
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 04, 2019, 11:41:32 AM
Zion < LeBron
This type of analysis is what makes you a great global moderator
Quote from: DoctorV on February 04, 2019, 11:47:11 AM
This type of analysis is what makes you a great global moderator
Where?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 01, 2019, 07:58:13 AM
Clarke plays for Clarke? I didn't know Clarke college had gone D1!
Interesting that they rated Clarke above Hachimura.
Quote from: MU82 on February 04, 2019, 12:45:43 PM
But Markus > LeBron, right?
Absolutely. He's going to crush LeBron's Marquette scoring record.
Quote from: wadesworld on February 03, 2019, 03:46:06 PM
Did you watch John Henson try to shoot a jumper outside of 15 feet prior to this year? How about Brook Lopez having 3 total made 3 pointers in his first 8 years in the NBA and then made 134 in his 9th year and will have more than that by the All Star break in his 11th year now? What about Marc Gasol, who averaged 1.2 makes per season his first 8 years in the NBA and then made 104 in his 9th season?
I don't think Theo will ever be a 3 point shooter, but to pretend that it's impossible for a center who's never shown the ability to develop a 3 point shot is just wrong.
Henson is an anomaly - bad shooter who late in his career started shooting the occasional 3. But he's only taken 31 (made 11) this year so lets wait for a larger sample size. As for Lopez and Gasol, they weren't 3 point shooters but they were good shooters. Lopez made 79% of his free throws as a senior in college and Gasol is a 77.7 career free throw shooter in the NBA. Point i they have always had the "shooter's eye". Theo is a 50% free throw shooter. He has good form but (as of yet, anyway) not the "eye". Odds against him becoming a 3 point threat are extremely high.
I like the rest of you believe Markus is the key to this team. However, I find the following results interesting.
2-10-18 we lose to St. John's with Markus.
2-21-18 we beat St John's without Markus.
2-17-18 Markus gets hurt against Creighton and leaves with MU trailing 43-35 with 5:02 to go in first half. MU falls down 15, but rallies to win without Markus.
2-24-18 Markus comes back and we lose to DePaul 62-70.
2019 Markus plays only 3 minutes against Georgetown and MU wins game.
I point this out, because the original poster argued that Zion was blessed with great players around him. I think you can make the same argument for Markus. MU has shown it can win can win without Markus.