MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: DarkWarrior on January 26, 2019, 03:46:30 PM
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I know we are not supposed to whine about the officials. I know WOJO and the players have to avoid the topic.
But, How can officiating be this bad and this one-sided?
I liked the fact the WOJO and the Team remained centered despite X's 6th man, the officials.
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Honestly, officiating has been so poor all year that I could not get upset today. The team played through it. Matt stepped up when Morrow did not. The team gets it.
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Sam got hit in the face and the ref five feet away didn’t call it until Wojo lost his sh!t.
How do you miss that?!?!?
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I thought the reffing was awful both ways. They let everything go on both sides. I don't think either team made it to the bonus in the first half, and I don't think either team was in the bonus until about 3:30 left in the second half.
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I thought the reffing was awful both ways. They let everything go on both sides. I don't think either team made it to the bonus in the first half, and I don't think either team was in the bonus until about 3:30 left in the second half.
Yep
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Only the strong survive.
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The reffing has been consistent most of the year from terrible to poor. Feel terrible for the bad calls on Theo.
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Is John Cahill still in charge of Big East refs? He was garbage as an official so I guess it makes sense it’s been so bad.
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I may be in the minority, but I thought the officiating was fine, 31 total fouls, including a T on X. They clearly let both teams play, which was fine IMO. Felt like an old school Beast game,, nice change of pace.
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I thought the reffing was awful both ways. They let everything go on both sides. I don't think either team made it to the bonus in the first half, and I don't think either team was in the bonus until about 3:30 left in the second half.
This. The refs definitely hurt us and were calling things differently (Theo with numerous Fezzik Fouls) but they also hurt Xavier similarly. Both teams have a case to complain about the refs today.
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I thought the reffing was awful both ways.
This. The phantom calls on Theo, the ridiculously quick T on Steele, and many other head-scratchers.
Both teams have plenty to criticize...which means neither team was robbed.
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I didn't think it was bad officiating, they let both sides play. Plenty of times they could have dinged us when they didn't. Only exception was with Theo. I think 4/5 of his fouls were softer than most of what the refs were calling today.
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Is John Cahill still in charge of Big East refs? He was garbage as an official so I guess it makes sense it’s been so bad.
Yes
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agreed you can argue, if you want, that the reffing was poor, but pretty hard to argue it was bias or unfair towards Marquette. im sure the X fans have a list of the calls they thought were really bad a s well. Gottlieb did a pretty good job of pointing them out on each side. Hard to arge the refs were against you when u get a tech in the last 4 mins in ur favor
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I didn't think it was bad officiating, they let both sides play. Plenty of times they could have dinged us when they didn't. Only exception was with Theo. I think 4/5 of his fouls were softer than most of what the refs were calling today.
But isn't inconsistent officiating "bad" by definition?
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If you take the way they officiated Theo out of the mix the officiating was "fine". I continue to be flabbergasted by the way Theo is officiated, dude gets whistled simply for existing within a physical space
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agreed you can argue, if you want, that the reffing was poor, but pretty hard to argue it was bias or unfair towards Marquette. im sure the X fans have a list of the calls they thought were really bad a s well. Gottlieb did a pretty good job of pointing them out on each side. Hard to arge the refs were against you when u get a tech in the last 4 mins in ur favor
But they immediately did a makeup call on that Technical foul with the phantom offensive foul on Sam.
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I don’t think it was a quick T. I think they gave Steele a long leash on an earlier call. I think he overstepped a second time and they called the T.
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But isn't inconsistent officiating "bad" by definition?
I thought it was consistent on both sides. There were bad calls on them too...ours just all happened to be contained to one player.
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Very consistently bad. Must be NFL refs doing NCAA b-ball on the side🤯🤬🤯
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Very consistently bad. Must be NFL refs doing NCAA b-ball on the side🤯🤬🤯
Actually they are in some cases.
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I thought it was consistent on both sides. There were bad calls on them too...ours just all happened to be contained to one player.
Consistent on both sides...but you said earlier that they let most guys play, but called phantom stuff on Theo. Consistently inconsistent?
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Actually they are in some cases.
Yikes! Now we are getting to the root of the problem. The non-call on Sam was grounds for dismissal of said ref(s) upon further review. That is malpractice right there.
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I may be in the minority, but I thought the officiating was fine, 31 total fouls, including a T on X. They clearly let both teams play, which was fine IMO. Felt like an old school Beast game,, nice change of pace.
There was a rush of fouls at the end of the game. Don't let those totals skew you. 7 total fouls in the first half and neither team in the bonus till well after the midway point of the second half. They didn't call squat, and then were extremely inconsistent with what they did call.
Markus got sent to the line twice on fouls I thought were weak as he was out of control, but they ignored 4-5 other times he got hammered. They were AWFUL.
"Old school BEast" doesn't have a upper level defensive center get fouled out on 3-4 ticky tack calls so bad that the color guy can't stop talking about how bad they were
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Consistent on both sides...but you said earlier that they let most guys play, but called phantom stuff on Theo. Consistently inconsistent?
I agree with tamu...they let then play...with the exception of theo. You can decide if that makes them good or bad or inconsistent...
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I agree with tamu...they let then play...with the exception of theo. You can decide if that makes them good or bad or inconsistent...
That makes them inconsistent...which IMHO is bad.
Just my $0.02
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There was a rush of fouls at the end of the game. Don't let those totals skew you. 7 total fouls in the first half and neither team in the bonus till well after the midway point of the second half. They didn't call squat, and then were extremely inconsistent with what they did call.
Markus got sent to the line twice on fouls I thought were weak as he was out of control, but they ignored 4-5 other times he got hammered. They were AWFUL.
"Old school BEast" doesn't have a upper level defensive center get fouled out on 3-4 ticky tack calls so bad that the color guy can't stop talking about how bad they were
Overall fouls may have been a bad number to look at, but the 16-15 discrepancy suggests that even if inconsistent, it was at least fairly even. I'll stand by my statement that the officiating was fine.
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I think both sides came away with legitimate gripes. It probably evened out, but making bad calls or ignoring things on both sides doesn't make it good officiating.
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The numbers may look even but the non-fouls on Theo decapitated our interior defense. No similar impact was felt on X. Just because the number of fouls appear even on a stat sheet, that has little to do with the fairness of calls. No teams inflict fouls at the same rate. I just want things called the same way both ways. Bad refs make games hard to watch for fans and hard to play for players. I posted my ref comment today after a win. I am not complaining that anything was taken from Marquette, the fouls may have even energized our guys. I just would like to see a higher level of professional ref at this level.
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My favorite moment:
Time: 5 minutes gone into the second half
Scenario: Ball goes out of bounds and baseline official holds up his hand and looks to referee near coaches box for help. Coaches box official immediately and emphatically points MU ball! Baseline official (yes the very same guy who threw up his hands and asked for help) turns and emphatically points Xavier’s way.
Seeing it in real time is nothing short of hysterical. It would make a perfect gif to hammer any offficiating friends one might have. I personally won’t talk to the a#$*oles.....kidding.......kind of.
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Consistent on both sides...but you said earlier that they let most guys play, but called phantom stuff on Theo. Consistently inconsistent?
Consistent meaning I think there was close to an even amount of good and bad calls on both sides. We were just unlucky that most of the bad calls that went against us were all on one player.
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Speaking of officiating, they are looking into the fact that of the officials working the rams-saints game last week, 4 of them had ties to California. Whether or not anything comes of this remains to be seen. Those guys are going to have a colonoscopy before all is said and done
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Consistent meaning I think there was close to an even amount of good and bad calls on both sides. We were just unlucky that most of the bad calls that went against us were all on one player.
I worry about Theo and fouls. His style of play has given him a brute rep which seems to hurt him even when he plays clean. It feels like there are 1-2 fouls a game that were either a clean block or a charge/verticality situation.
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I thought the reffing was awful both ways. They let everything go on both sides. I don't think either team made it to the bonus in the first half, and I don't think either team was in the bonus until about 3:30 left in the second half.
Definitely agree it was very poor both ways. There was a big difference, however, in how the teams responded to it. Goodin, Naji and Steele clearly let the calls affect them. I did not see MU lose composure at all, especially Theo despite the garbage calls that took him out of the game entirely. One of my favorite things about him is how he can be in the middle of a very intense moment or confrontation and his expression doesn't change. That would drive me nuts going against him.
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I worry about Theo and fouls. His style of play has given him a brute rep which seems to hurt him even when he plays clean. It feels like there are 1-2 fouls a game that were either a clean block or a charge/verticality situation.
Care to cite anything proving this brute rep? I don't think he's getting any calls based on "rep" I just think he is bigger and stronger than everyone and officials are bad/lazy and assume it's a foul on Theo when the other player makes contact. His last foul against X was text book verticality but because the attacking player was somewhat off balance when he went up when he hit Theo he "bounced" off so it looked like Theo initiated the contact.
Basically, some of these officials need to take courses in physics.
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I didn't think it was bad officiating, they let both sides play. Plenty of times they could have dinged us when they didn't. Only exception was with Theo. I think 4/5 of his fouls were softer than most of what the refs were calling today.
I am mostly here with you, TAMU. But it was weird that, for the most part, they let 9 guys maul each other all game long but nailed Theo every time he breathed on somebody.
I also thought they were pretty clueless in officiating Markus' drives. He definitely benefited from a couple of very soft calls, but overall he was slammed around pretty good without getting any calls. It's that kind of inconsistency that drives coaches/fans nuts, and that makes it less than OK officiating.
Basketball is a brutally difficult game to officiate. I called 7 youth games over the weekend, most involving 10-to-12 year olds, and I'm sure I missed plenty of calls. And that was just kids, not grown men beating the crap out of each other for 40 minutes. So my first instinct is to give the refs at MU games the benefit of the doubt and try not to let my fandom into my judgment. (In contrast, my wife thinks MU is always getting hosed!) But I do not think the refs covered themselves in glory in this game; I'd rate 'em a 3 or 4 on a 1-10 scale.
The good news is that this Marquette team is tough-minded and deep enough to win these kinds of games. Because our best (and most likely to get fouled) players are far better FT shooters than those on most opponents, because we are more experienced than most and because we are deeper than many, we probably benefit from poorly officiated games as long as they're poorly officiated against both teams.
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Care to cite anything proving this brute rep? I don't think he's getting any calls based on "rep" I just think he is bigger and stronger than everyone and officials are bad/lazy and assume it's a foul on Theo when the other player makes contact. His last foul against X was text book verticality but because the attacking player was somewhat off balance when he went up when he hit Theo he "bounced" off so it looked like Theo initiated the contact.
Basically, some of these officials need to take courses in physics.
I dont have a source for a rep. Just an eye test that he is strong and refs call fouls because he's a wall (even if it is a clean block that hits the opponent in the face). Seems to be a quicker whistle with him.
Agree that the refs are lazy on the calls. That may have been more of the point I'd pivot to
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I dont have a source for a rep. Just an eye test that he is strong and refs call fouls because he's a wall (even if it is a clean block that hits the opponent in the face). Seems to be a quicker whistle with him.
Agree that the refs are lazy on the calls. That may have been more of the point I'd pivot to
In the previous 5 games, Theo was not getting called for every ticky-tack foul. Despite his very physical play, he was able to average 29 mpg and that was a huge factor in us winning every one of those games.
So I'm hoping the X game was an outlier -- a temporary return to the bad old days.
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Is there any mechanism by which MU can raise issue with the calls on Theo? In the spirit of maybe getting calls in future games... Stop picking on my guy sort of thing....
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It seems wojo has the players prepared, temperamentally, very well. He has the players understanding that their reactions to the calls, has an affect on the whole team. If any of them draw less than favorable response from a ref, not to wear it too much. Many of the refs do allow some leeway for emotions, but not for showing them up.
The one thing Theo has to be very careful of is showing up the other players, i.e. the ole primal scream following a dunk, looking right into the face of an opposing player. He got called on that once and it essentially negates his dunk when the opposing team gets 2 free throws on the technical.
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Roger Ayers has called two Marquette Big East games. St. Johns and Xavier. Seeing as I thought those were the worst officiated games of the season, I will blame him haha.
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It seems wojo has the players prepared, temperamentally, very well. He has the players understanding that their reactions to the calls, has an affect on the whole team. If any of them draw less than favorable response from a ref, not to wear it too much. Many of the refs do allow some leeway for emotions, but not for showing them up.
The one thing Theo has to be very careful of is showing up the other players, i.e. the ole primal scream following a dunk, looking right into the face of an opposing player. He got called on that once and it essentially negates his dunk when the opposing team gets 2 free throws on the technical.
Good post, rocket.
Not only can the scream get Theo a T, but a T also counts as a personal foul. Given that he is going to get fouls because of his physical nature, we can't afford him to pick up a personal foul that way.
He has come a long way and is now one of our most valuable players. We need him on the court.
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In watching the games this year, since the Big East season started, it feels like the games in general have been called much more closely in the second half than in the first. It's almost like they don't want people in foul trouble.
Anyway, I think for Theo it was just a coincidence. They are making illegal screens a point of emphasis, so they were paying attention and when he bumped the defender on the move, they called it, even though he wasn't setting a screen yet and it was incidental contact. That wasn't because he is strong or anything. The straight up ump and contact that he got called for twice he has been getting away with (it is not a foul) pretty much all Big East season, but we ran into a ref who sees that call differently. He got tangled up with someone on a rebound and they had to call something, and he got pinged for that. I think it was more of just a coincidence today. I agree he probably had only 2 legit fouls.
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I want the team to embrace the bad officiating. The last thing I want is for MU to be playing some small conference champion in the first round of the NCAA, get hit with a couple of bad calls early, and not know how to respond as a team. Right now, MU is finding a way to win on the road, with officiating that is consistently inconsistent and maddening to the fanbase. Matt Heldt treated the bad officiating as an opportunity. The other 3H's powered through and found a way to overcome a double digit deficit on the road. Celebrate the bad officiating. It is just one more thing making this team tougher.
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Dumb question: Do coaches ever talk to the refs before the game about stuff like that?
I mean, could Wojo go up to the refs and say, "You know, our #4 has been working really hard on clean blocks and jumping straight up with his hands above his head when defending a shot, but he still seems to get fouls called on him anyway. Is there anything else he can do to avoid the foul call?"
I mean, he wouldn't really be looking for an actual answer, but I think it would at least prompt the refs pay a little more attention.
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Dumb question: Do coaches ever talk to the refs before the game about stuff like that?
I mean, could Wojo go up to the refs and say, "You know, our #4 has been working really hard on clean blocks and jumping straight up with his hands above his head when defending a shot, but he still seems to get fouls called on him anyway. Is there anything else he can do to avoid the foul call?"
I mean, he wouldn't really be looking for an actual answer, but I think it would at least prompt the refs pay a little more attention.
They will do it more negative toward the other team than positive toward their own. 'Hey, we saw on film that (X) moves his feet without dribbling, uses his off arm when he drives, sets moving screens, likes to grab a handful of jersey when chasing players off screens.' Saying anything about your team, even positive, focuses the attention on your team.
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Dumb question: Do coaches ever talk to the refs before the game about stuff like that?
I mean, could Wojo go up to the refs and say, "You know, our #4 has been working really hard on clean blocks and jumping straight up with his hands above his head when defending a shot, but he still seems to get fouls called on him anyway. Is there anything else he can do to avoid the foul call?"
I mean, he wouldn't really be looking for an actual answer, but I think it would at least prompt the refs pay a little more attention.
I think cordial, constructive conversation can always be good. When refs are approached from a non-confrontational approach, more civil conversations can be had. This is where good coaches can gain a mutual respect for each other.
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I think cordial, constructive conversation can always be good. When refs are approached from a non-confrontational approach, more civil conversations can be had. This is where good coaches can gain a mutual respect for each other.
That's what I'm thinking. You are pointing something out that is being done incorrectly, but framing it as seeking advice for the player.
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Many times, the guys who don’t have a confrontational personality and/or a reputation, get a longer leash MOST of the time. Huggy bear and that dude from Iowa are bad visuals for refs, wojo seems pretty under control and chooses his battles wisely
Note: al had a short leash with some refs and longer with others. Many of them hated him for his showmanship and outspokenness but remember, most times, al had calculated reasons for everything he did.
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Many times, the guys who don’t have a confrontational personality and/or a reputation, get a longer leash MOST of the time. Huggy bear and that dude from Iowa are bad visuals for refs, wojo seems pretty under control and chooses his battles wisely
Note: al had a short leash with some refs and longer with others. Many of them hated him for his showmanship and outspokenness but remember, most times, al had calculated reasons for everything he did.
I've mentioned this before but I am shocked at just how composed Wojo is compared to past years. Sam, Joey and Markus all had huge threes in the X game and I don't think Wojo even unfolded his arms.
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I've mentioned this before but I am shocked at just how composed Wojo is compared to past years. Sam, Joey and Markus all had huge threes in the X game and I don't think Wojo even unfolded his arms.
Why would he? They are just meeting his expectations. ;)
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I've mentioned this before but I am shocked at just how composed Wojo is compared to past years. Sam, Joey and Markus all had huge threes in the X game and I don't think Wojo even unfolded his arms.
Yeah, earlier in his coaching tenure at Marquette I used to remark that often times he looked like me at a game. One of us is much more calm and mature at games these days......
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I've mentioned this before but I am shocked at just how composed Wojo is compared to past years. Sam, Joey and Markus all had huge threes in the X game and I don't think Wojo even unfolded his arms.
Wojo is a weird hybrid of the Jay Wright calm and then some crazy intensity. I like it. Luckily he never approaches Bo Ryan as*holery.
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I've mentioned this before but I am shocked at just how composed Wojo is compared to past years. Sam, Joey and Markus all had huge threes in the X game and I don't think Wojo even unfolded his arms.
Agreed. He used to be very demonstrative on the sidelines and I wondered if that caused our guys to play a little tight. Granted, he may be less demonstrative because we have better players and making less mistakes.
He seems to have more confidence about him that we will recover from a bad play and we have a little more margin for error. While every possession is important, we aren’t living and dying with every good or bad play.
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Very consistently bad. Must be NFL refs doing NCAA b-ball on the side🤯🤬🤯
This is exactly the situation, including the ref from that NFC Championship game
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/01/27/bill-vinovich-refs-college-basketball-game-gets-heckled-over-saints-call/ (https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/01/27/bill-vinovich-refs-college-basketball-game-gets-heckled-over-saints-call/)
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We see the same refs. may times every year, and then year after year, so the smart move is to play nice, nice. Rowsey seemed to spend a lot of time bantering with the refs., I think it helped him on many levels.
When the player gets intimidated by the ref. and then gets angry, it hurts all around. I totally agree, composure is vital.
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Overall, I give refs the benefit of the doubt because it is a very hard job to see everything little thing but I do expect consistency in calls. If you call a hand check on a power forward you need to call it on the guards. If you call it on one side of the court then call it on the other. I think refs get themselves in trouble when they aren't consistent or when they try to do a make up call. If you thought it was a foul or a turnover don't try to make up for it later. Go with the call that you think it is. I think they should allow for more replay but limit to something that is egregious. The coach can ask for a replay but if it is a close call then the coach loses the option later.
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Wojo is a weird hybrid of the Jay Wright calm and then some crazy intensity.
Kind of like that Duke coach.
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Kind of like that Duke coach.
I am not sure I have ever seen that Duke coach loose his cool at a game. I assumed he let Wojo do that for him.
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Dumb question: Do coaches ever talk to the refs before the game about stuff like that?
I mean, could Wojo go up to the refs and say, "You know, our #4 has been working really hard on clean blocks and jumping straight up with his hands above his head when defending a shot, but he still seems to get fouls called on him anyway. Is there anything else he can do to avoid the foul call?"
I mean, he wouldn't really be looking for an actual answer, but I think it would at least prompt the refs pay a little more attention.
Ref: Nope!
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I am not sure I have ever seen that Duke coach loose his cool at a game. I assumed he let Wojo do that for him.
The premise was intensity, not losing one’s cool. There is a difference. Whether that be laying into a player who’s made a mistake, jumping off the bench after a great play or display of hustle, or occasionally laying into an official, Coach K can get his temples popping with the best of them.
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The premise was intensity, not losing one’s cool. There is a difference. Whether that be laying into a player who’s made a mistake, jumping off the bench after a great play or display of hustle, or occasionally laying into an official, Coach K can get his temples popping with the best of them.
All of this, good points! I’ve seen coach shashefski get rankled. The thing is, he has that “Jordan” like respect where he doesn’t have to get as animated as say, a Bruce pearl for the refs to feel the heat. Certain people have a charisma about them and in coach k’s case, well earned and deserved. If coach k were to absolutely lose it, aka huggy bear-esque, either something really bad was missed by the refs or he was having a medical issue