Disclaimer: I still think we need a grad transfer PG, and I don't know much about advanced stats, so this list is based on what I could find.
Going off the idea of J5's blind resume test during the season, I took a look at the stats that the starting PG on all Beast teams put up their Freshman year, and while GE wouldn't be my first choice, he probably wouldn't be my last either. Not all teams started a true PG this year, or had scenarios like we did last year where KR was running point so take the info for what's its worth. Also, its easy just to look up the players and figure out who's who, but don't post it for at least a little while.
PG1) 25mpg. 38% shooting. 28% from 3 75% FT. 3 boards. 2 assists. 1 steal. 1.5 TO. 9 points.
PG2) 26mpg. 49% shooting. 37% from 3 75% FT. 4 boards. 1.5 assists. 1.7 steals. 1.5 TO. 10 points.
PG3) 24mpg. 45% shooting. 38% from 3 77% FT. 2 boards. 2.5 assists. 1 steal. 2 TO. 9.6 points.
PG4) 33mpg. 43% shooting. 37% from 3 82% FT. 4 boards. 3 assists. 2 steals. 2 TO. 17.4 points
PG5) 20mpg. 35% shooting. 34% from 3 75% FT. 2 boards. 2 assists. .5 steals 1 TO. 3.6 points.
PG6) 18mpg. 50% shooting. 36% from 3 79% FT. 2 boards. 1.5 assists. 1 steal. 1 TO. 4.5 points.
PG7) 28mpg. 43% shooting. 42% from 3 65% FT. 3 boards. 2 assists. 1 steal. 2 TO. 10 points.
PG8) 12mpg. 38% shooting. 36% from 3 78% FT. 1 board. 2 assists. .5 steals 1 TO. 3 points.
PG9) 24mpg. 35% shooting. 25% from 3 57% FT. 2 boards. 3.5 assists. 1 steal. 2 TO. 5 points.
PG10) 18mpg. 38% shooting. 12% from 3 74% FT. 2 boards. 2.5 assists. .5 steals. 1 TO. 3.5 points.
Just based off scoring there are three main tiers. The 3-5 ppg, the 9-11 ppg, and one sitting pretty at 17, but overall numbers show that there isn't too much separating the freshman years of these Big East point guards. Now obviously some players were forced into larger roles than others, and some were on better teams. In an ideal world we'd get a grad transfer, who would split time with Elliott, and then Elliott could step into the main role with DJ Carton as his back up in 2019, and Markus would rarely ever be forced to play point. PG is still the area with the least amount of depth going into next year, but Greg can be a starting point guard in this league and hold his own.
20% turnover rate on 13% usage says maybe not.
Let him be who he is......if he develops into a guy who can be a primary ball handler without turning it over a ton great.. ...no idea if that will be his role going forward but I think not.
Hope and think Wojo will have better options there.
I like to think we'll have better options at PG too.
But then again, not a whole lot of Scoopers were saying at this point a year ago that Rowsey would be a well-above average to excellent PG.
Quote from: MU82 on April 04, 2018, 06:39:44 PM
I like to think we'll have better options at PG too.
But then again, not a whole lot of Scoopers were saying at this point a year ago that Rowsey would be a well-above average to excellent PG.
well, he did well when he passed the ball. Defense? Well........
Quote from: Nukem2 on April 04, 2018, 07:01:27 PM
well, he did well when he passed the ball. Defense? Well........
We know Elliott will be vastly superior to Rowsey on defense. That's not what I was talking about.
I am definitely in the "we need a starting PG camp."
But, as I said, few were sitting here a year ago saying, "I bet next season Rowsey will have one of the best offensive seasons any Marquette PG has ever had."
I'm in the opposite camp. I don't see it happening. I'll say he remains a 1-2 dribble attack guy from the wing.
If he were to become a successful pg with his measurables he'd be looking at the nba some day - just don't see it.
The team needs some dogs. They are softer than Charmin.
Quote from: hdog1017 on April 04, 2018, 08:04:05 PM
The team needs some dogs. They are softer than Charmin.
Morrow, Theo, and to an extent Sacar (how he was playing by the end of the season) are def not soft.
Quote from: Newsdreams on April 04, 2018, 10:47:04 PM
Morrow, Theo, and to an extent Sacar (how he was playing by the end of the season) are def not soft.
This. I think we're gonna see some bruisers next year but especially in two when Theo is starting center with Morrow and Sacar as well.
Quote from: WindyCityGoldenEagle on April 04, 2018, 07:30:14 PM
I'm in the opposite camp. I don't see it happening. I'll say he remains a 1-2 dribble attack guy from the wing.
If he were to become a successful pg with his measurables he'd be looking at the nba some day - just don't see it.
I agree. Many here said Vander would be a PG. They said Duane could be a PG. Some here have even said Howard could be a PG.
I don't see those things happening - I don't see Elliot as a PG. As 82 said, he can play the position on defense, but we need someone to run the team.
I tend to be more optimistic with what I think the biggest jump coming between freshman and sophomore year coming for Greg. I also think having 1 1/2 hands this season with one functional thumb doesn't yield a true picture of his guard abilities. How about we just call him a guard? There isn't a Brunson on this team but I would take a DJO type guard.
It wasn't too long ago we were complaining we had no bigs; now we have no point guard.
Someday, and I hope soon, we'll put it together.
Quote from: Jockey on April 04, 2018, 11:03:05 PM
I agree. Many here said Vander would be a PG. They said Duane could be a PG. Some here have even said Howard could be a PG.
I don't see those things happening - I don't see Elliot as a PG. As 82 said, he can play the position on defense, but we need someone to run the team.
Vander played alongside Junior for 3 years, so there was no need for him to play PG. The general consensus seems to be that Junior should be the minimum that a Big East PG should be and comparing Greg's freshman year to Junior's sophomore year there's not a lot of separation. Junior had a slightly better assist to turnover ratio, but Greg shot better in every category, had more rebounds, blocks and steals. Now I'm not saying that Greg will be 1st team all Big East as a Junior or a Senior, and I would certainly never compare him to a former Michigan State PG, who happens to be one of the best players of all time, but Greg has the skill-set to develop into a quality Big East PG.
I love Greg Elliott, but I still don't see him as a PG. Maybe he can develop his handle to get there, but I don't see it at the moment.
When I think of a guy who can play PG, the one question I ask is am I comfortable with them handling the ball up the court while being pressed. Right now, the answer in regards to Greg is No.
Quote from: Its DJOver on April 05, 2018, 08:39:30 AM
Vander played alongside Junior for 3 years, so there was no need for him to play PG. The general consensus seems to be that Junior should be the minimum that a Big East PG should be and comparing Greg's freshman year to Junior's sophomore year there's not a lot of separation. Junior had a slightly better assist to turnover ratio, but Greg shot better in every category, had more rebounds, blocks and steals. Now I'm not saying that Greg will be 1st team all Big East as a Junior or a Senior, and I would certainly never compare him to a former Michigan State PG, who happens to be one of the best players of all time, but Greg has the skill-set to develop into a quality Big East PG.
A/TO ratio is not a good stat to use. Junior had the stats of a PG. High Ast%, high TO% and high usage. Elliott's stats look like a back-up guard who plays off the ball.
I think Markus is a better option at PG than Elliott is. I actually think Markus would be fine.
I also think you can use Sam in a point forward type roll. He's very smart against the press.
Quote from: WarriorInNYC on April 05, 2018, 08:51:05 AM
I love Greg Elliott, but I still don't see him as a PG. Maybe he can develop his handle to get there, but I don't see it at the moment.
When I think of a guy who can play PG, the one question I ask is am I comfortable with them handling the ball up the court while being pressed. Right now, the answer in regards to Greg is No.
I don't understand this fascination with press breaking around here. Rowsey was our best ball handler since Dom IMO, and if he were trying to break a press by himself I wouldn't be comfortable with that. Watching Nova play against WVA in the tourney, even though Nova had one of the best PG in the country, there were very few if any times that the press was beaten without passing, and WVA probably has the best press in the country. GE showed solid decision making for a freshman and he has a better ability to see over a press than AR had. If he moves up a weight class or two, and tightens up his handling a little (which should be easy once he's playing with two hands again) I would have no problem with GE being involved in a press break.
Quote from: #bansultan on April 05, 2018, 08:51:53 AM
A/TO ratio is not a good stat to use. Junior had the stats of a PG. High Ast%, high TO% and high usage. Elliott's stats look like a back-up guard who plays off the ball.
I think Markus is a better option at PG than Elliott is. I actually think Markus would be fine.
I also think you can use Sam in a point forward type roll. He's very smart against the press.
Why is A/TO ratio not a good stat?
Junior's sophomore year, he and Reggie Smith were the only PG's on the team. DJO, Buycks, and Vander were all off the ball guards IMO, so Junior was going to have a higher usage than Greg did this year when he was playing behind Rowsey.
I think Markus can run the point too, I just think our offense will be better if he is playing off the ball/running of screens/catch and shoot.
Quote from: Its DJOver on April 05, 2018, 09:12:18 AM
Why is A/TO ratio not a good stat?
Because it doesn't take volume into consideration. Elliott had 1.4 APG and 0.9 TPG. That's not a point guard. Sam had the best A/TO on the team last year. He shouldn't be the point guard either.
Assist percentage is a better stat IMO. Howard was second to Rowsey.
Quote from: Its DJOver on April 05, 2018, 09:12:18 AM
Junior's sophomore year, he and Reggie Smith were the only PG's on the team. DJO, Buycks, and Vander were all off the ball guards IMO, so Junior was going to have a higher usage than Greg did this year when he was playing behind Rowsey.
I think Markus can run the point too, I just think our offense will be better if he is playing off the ball/running of screens/catch and shoot.
Dwight played point a lot that year. Cadougan only started five games. Dwight was the guy who started and played about 10 mpg more per game. My recollection is that Junior came on toward the end of the year. (In fact I remember that being a hot topic here on Scoop at the time.)
Regardless I think Markus is better off the ball too. But I don't think Greg is the option at point. It's either going to be Markus or someone who isn't on the roster right now.
A/TO is a stat that someone made up because they decided that they liked PGs with high assists and low turnovers... Even though the two really have nothing to do with each other.
The point guard's main job is to initiate the offense and get/keep the ball moving. Quantifying this is really hard because a PG could set up an open shot but have 3 guys touch the ball before the shot eventually happens (see Steph Curry). My biggest issue with Howard at point is not statistical but with the fact the ball tends to stagnate in his hands, which I think is very correctable imho
Quote from: #bansultan on April 05, 2018, 09:23:43 AM
Regardless I think Markus is better off the ball too. But I don't think Greg is the option at point. It's either going to be Markus or someone who isn't on the roster right now.
Thanks for the info on A/TO ratio.
First line of the thread I said that I think we still need a grad transfer. The problem with that is that we run into the same problem 12 months from now. We may have DJ Carton in the fold by then, but with all the talent on the team I'm not sure I'd want a true freshman leading us in minutes at the PG position. Markus could be running the point then, but it sounds like we agree that the best case scenario doesn't have him at PG. If we go grad transfer again for the 19-20 season that is getting dangerously close to the constant roster turnover/short term players that we had under Buzz.
What position do you see Greg playing? He's gonna be behind Markus for the next 2 years if he plays the 2, he'll be behind Sam and Jamal at the 3. If I were Greg, looking down the road, I'd see the most available minutes at the 1 as a Junior and a Senior. Knowing that, I'd work primarily on developing PG skills. And lets be honest, if he could develop those skills, we'd all love a 6-3 PG, especially after this year.
Greg's role will depend on who we bring in. If it is a guy like the guy from Fordham, he likely will be the first guard off the bench. If it is a "lower level" PG, then I think Markus and Greg are the starters.
Regardless, first guard off the bench is a fine role. Probably will increase his minutes from 18 to the 22 per game range. When MU goes small, he may play with both of them.
Don't get stuck on positions. There will be plenty of opportunities for Greg.
I just know that we've traditionally gone with 3 guard line-ups (I view Sacar as a guard, even though I know not everybody does), and next year we will likely be running more 3 big line-ups, which means 40 fewer total minutes for guards. Markus has the off guard position sewn up until he leaves, which would mean that Greg will likely have to develop the skillset to run point or he will see his minutes drop. The point of this thread was to suggest that he has the ability to do just that, and suggest my belief that he will do that.
Quote from: PistolBrad on April 05, 2018, 09:37:02 AM
My biggest issue with Howard at point is not statistical but with the fact the ball tends to stagnate in his hands, which I think is very correctable imho
I agree with this analysis. Markus is a two guard. A frustration I had with him last year was the tendency to put his head down when he decided to drive; the ball was seldom coming out of his hands. I don't know if it was lack of vision, I suspect it is the fact that he has never been asked to be a distributor.
Kid is such a hard worker and so coachable that I think he *could* fill the role, but IMO we'd be much better with a true one guard and let Markus excel at what he is good at already.
Like stock investors, sports fans tend to fear the unknown.
Elliott is the unknown.
Most Scoopers who have commented in this and other threads are convinced he can't play PG based on the very limited sample we saw this past season when he obviously was playing hurt. Even those of us who begrudgingly concede that maybe he could play a little PG - I'm in this camp - would rather not have to find out whether or not he could be the main PG next season.
Heck, for all we've seen of Markus these last two seasons, his ability to be the main PG is still unknown ... and that worries us, too.
It's going to be interesting watching the whole thing develop. Like most Scoopers, I continue to hope Wojo can land a starting PG in free agency. And like most Scoopers, I worry about next season's potential being wasted if we don't shore up the important position.
But wouldn't it be something if either Elliott or Markus (or both) do at least as well as Rowsey did from a ballhandling, team-organization and passing standpoint?
I'm too lazy to look back at old posts, but I sure don't remember dozens of Scoopers (or even ones of Scoopers) saying in April 2017: "You just wait; Rowsey's gonna be a real good PG next season."
Greg's position is guard. I think people's perception of a true point guard is a player that gets the ball and somehow can single handedly break a press against 3 players all by himself and throw a fantastic no look pass or ally-oop for a dunk. While that would be fantastic to have, I don't think there are that many of those types of players out there.
I would much rather have someone like Greg be able to make the correct pass against the press to break it. I would rather him be a player that someone else mentioned brings the ball down, makes a first pass to the wing, cuts hard / sets a pick and initiates the offense. I don't see many fantastic one pass dunks in college. . . at least not at Marquette.
So the question in my head is can Greg dribble the ball up one on one with pressure, make a wing pass, and cut through hard to initiate? With two hands, yes. Can Greg make the correct pass on a press break to an open guy? Yes.
I hear quite a bit mentioned on press break. Next year we are going to have a taller overall lineup with Sam, Joey, Sacar being a more available target to help with press break. All are skilled at dribbling and passing. It isn't like passing it to Joey on press break is going to be something like passing it to Greg Clausen or Richard Shaw at 1/2 court to 3/4 court to make something happen. I am dating myself with that reference to two big stiffs that played at Marquette.
I would rather not see a repeat of this season where Howard tries to dribble through the press to the sideline, gets cut off by two 6'4" to 6'7" Big East level guards, jumps, and tries to make a pass through the trap for a turnover/layup. Now to me, that isn't point guard potential.
For as much as we obsess over the press break, I'd be curious to see how we actually did statistically against the press compared to other programs. While we certainly weren't great, I have a suspicion that we were actually pretty average against it, we fans just like to remember the bad moments.
Whether Greg Elliott is our PG next year remains to be seen. I do know that I want to see him with on the floor as much as possible no matter what role he is asked to do . The kid has a competitive attitude that is all about winning. He is a very unselfish team oriented player who makes things happen. He had the respect of the whole team this year, which is a very good sign . I have said this before, I think he can be another Michael Wilson for MU.
Can someone explain why after 4 years our rebuilding program did not include a point guard or two?
Quote from: Class71 on April 06, 2018, 04:53:11 AM
Can someone explain why after 4 years our rebuilding program did not include a point guard or two?
Traci Carter and Andrew Rowsey in 2015, Markus Howard in 2016, tried for Quentin Grimes and Courtney Ramey in 2018. Carter left and Howard seems to be more a combo.
If the dude can grow and mature into the pg position, I'm all eyes and ears. Can't just give it to him (Elliot) Unconditionally.
Quote from: Class71 on April 06, 2018, 04:53:11 AM
Can someone explain why after 4 years our rebuilding program did not include a point guard or two?
Why could Crean not land a decent PG while Yogi Ferrell was on the roster? Sometimes, guys don't want to come and sit for a couple of years. Also, we don't know that Greg isn't a PG. We suspect it. But I would really like to see him with two hands before making a definitive judgment.
Quote from: tower912 on April 06, 2018, 05:59:00 AM
Why could Crean not land a decent PG while Yogi Ferrell was on the roster? Sometimes, guys don't want to come and sit for a couple of years.
Two point guards can play together. At least one needs some size for defensive purposes. Examples of 2 PG backcourts:
Jason Williams & Chris Duhon
Tyus Jones & Quinn Cook
Jalen Brunson & Phil Booth
Ryan Archidiacano & Jalen Brunson
Marcus Paige & Joel Berry
So it absolutely can be done. And it can be successful. Quite a few national titles won by the above list. The Crean/Ferrell situation does not represent a concrete certainty that one PG prevents successfully recruiting a second PG.
The person with the following stats is 6'5" and going to be a helluva point guard in the BEAST next year:
SEASON MIN FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
2017-18 29.3 4.7-9.8 .481 2.1-5.3 .401 1.9-2.7 .710 4.8 3.5 0.2 1.1 2.1 2.0 13.4
2016-17 25.5 3.0-6.5 .466 1.2-3.2 .365 1.6-2.3 .699 3.8 1.7 0.3 0.9 1.6 1.4 8.8
2015-16 9.3 0.8-2.6 .286 0.4-2.1 .176 0.0-0.0 .000 2.0 0.5 0.0 0.5 1.3 0.9 1.9
Greg's Freshman year was FAR better - and I think there are a lot of comparisons between these two.
Mars bar to whoever figure out first who is the comp.
Quote from: WarriorFan on April 06, 2018, 06:34:38 AM
The person with the following stats is 6'5" and going to be a helluva point guard in the BEAST next year:
SEASON MIN FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
2017-18 29.3 4.7-9.8 .481 2.1-5.3 .401 1.9-2.7 .710 4.8 3.5 0.2 1.1 2.1 2.0 13.4
2016-17 25.5 3.0-6.5 .466 1.2-3.2 .365 1.6-2.3 .699 3.8 1.7 0.3 0.9 1.6 1.4 8.8
2015-16 9.3 0.8-2.6 .286 0.4-2.1 .176 0.0-0.0 .000 2.0 0.5 0.0 0.5 1.3 0.9 1.9
Greg's Freshman year was FAR better - and I think there are a lot of comparisons between these two.
Mars bar to whoever figure out first who is the comp.
DiVincenzo only played 8 games his freshman year so the comparison isn't exactly fair.
He also got hurt and redshirted in 15-16, so his RSFR numbers are better than Greg's true freshman numbers.
I'm not saying that Greg will be our starting PG next year, but if you look at the roster composition, then it appears that he is being lined up for the job down the road.
18-19 guards:
Markus, Sacar, Greg, grad transfer.
Sacar has never played PG so I see him as the back up off the ball guard. The grad transfer will be the starting PG. Markus will be the starting off the ball guard. Greg should be the back up PG, getting at least 15mpg of running point.
19-20 guards:
Markus, Sacar, Greg, Freshman no be named later.
Markus and Sacar will be in the same roles. The 19-20 season should be the one where we have a potential good postseason run. The Seniors will include Markus, Sam, Sacar, and Ed. I don't care how talented any potential freshman is, I wouldn't want him being the starting PG on that team, the jump from HS to college is just too big. Going for another grad transfer would be a mistake IMO, because if we go back to back grad transfer PG it would imply an over-reliance on the grad transfer system. In the 19-20 season Greg will be a Junior and will have just spent a year as the back up PG, he will be ready to be the man that runs the offense. The only other scenario I see (without taking into account transfers that will likely happen) is if Wojo gets a grad transfer PG this year, and a traditional transfer PG who will sit out next year, and even in that case I think it would be a competition for the starting PG spot with the transfer and Greg, with any freshman being the third option.
How hard is it to play PG? Is it the easiest position on the court to play?
Judging by many posts here, it would seem to be quite easy. Anybody can do it. Vander, Duane, Marcus, Haanif, Greg.
My feeling is that it is the most difficult position to play. Besides the skills required - ball handling, passing, vision, awareness, unselfishness, etc. - it takes a particular mindset as well.
But for whatever reasons, people seem to think that any guard can play the point. Just call him a PG and that is all there is to it. I think I am really gonna enjoy 4 years of Greg Elliot. He plays hard, can score, can play 'D'; he seems to be a hard worker. I could easily see him become my favorite player.
I just don't think he is a PG. For a few minutes a game here and there, yeah. I just don't think he can change everything he has always been and suddenly be a PG.
Maybe I will be proven wrong the next couple of years, but I don't think so.
Quote from: Jockey on April 06, 2018, 10:20:36 AM
Judging by many posts here, it would seem to be quite easy. Anybody can do it. Vander, Duane, Marcus, Haanif, Greg.
Vander played alongside an adequate PG so he never needed to play PG. Duane wanted to play PG, but for whatever reason Wojo didn't want him too. Markus played PG for the national team, he'd do a fine job here as well, he would just do better off the ball. Haanif couldn't, but I believe that he could have if he had two hands, he proved time and again that he could only go one direction. 12 months ago almost nobody thought that AR could develop into as good of a PG as he did.
Quote from: Jockey on April 06, 2018, 10:20:36 AM
My feeling is that it is the most difficult position to play. Besides the skills required - ball handling, passing, vision, awareness, unselfishness, etc. - it takes a particular mindset as well.
I expect Greg's ball handling to be improved once he has two hands again. When you say passing, I assume you're thinking of the flashy passes that lead to wide open lay ups or alley-oops. While these are nice to be able to do, they are not necessary to be an effective PG. Greg is 4 inches taller than AR so his vision should be better. As for awareness and unselfishness, I think the only players that really struggled there were Markus and Andrew, I thought Greg was fine in those categories. Greg seems like a smart, team first mindset player, so he will do whatever it takes for the team to win.
Greg checks a lot of boxes IMO, and his mindset of always wanting to learn more/being involved and engaged in TO discussions leads me to believe that he will be fine as a PG.
Quote from: Its DJOver on April 06, 2018, 08:20:50 AM
I'm not saying that Greg will be our starting PG next year, but if you look at the roster composition, then it appears that he is being lined up for the job down the road.
18-19 guards:
Markus, Sacar, Greg, grad transfer.
Sacar has never played PG so I see him as the back up off the ball guard. The grad transfer will be the starting PG. Markus will be the starting off the ball guard. Greg should be the back up PG, getting at least 15mpg of running point.
19-20 guards:
Markus, Sacar, Greg, Freshman no be named later.
Markus and Sacar will be in the same roles. The 19-20 season should be the one where we have a potential good postseason run. The Seniors will include Markus, Sam, Sacar, and Ed. I don't care how talented any potential freshman is, I wouldn't want him being the starting PG on that team, the jump from HS to college is just too big. Going for another grad transfer would be a mistake IMO, because if we go back to back grad transfer PG it would imply an over-reliance on the grad transfer system. In the 19-20 season Greg will be a Junior and will have just spent a year as the back up PG, he will be ready to be the man that runs the offense. The only other scenario I see (without taking into account transfers that will likely happen) is if Wojo gets a grad transfer PG this year, and a traditional transfer PG who will sit out next year, and even in that case I think it would be a competition for the starting PG spot with the transfer and Greg, with any freshman being the third option.
I think you're overstating this.
Marquette has success starting freshman PGs in the not-so-distant past (James, Miller). Other programs have won national titles starting freshmen at the point (Nova with Brunson, Duke with Tyus Jones, Kentucky with Marquis Teague, Cuse with Gerry McNamara).
Obviously it takes a really good player to step in and run the point right away, but MU is recruiting some top 50 talents at the position in 2019 (Carton, Hagans, Maxey), likely with the sales pitch that they'll have a chance to start right away. So don't rule it out, andthere's no reason to think having a freshman run the point hurts a team.
Quote from: Its DJOver on April 06, 2018, 10:37:18 AM
Vander played alongside an adequate PG so he never needed to play PG. Duane wanted to play PG, but for whatever reason Wojo didn't want him too. Markus played PG for the national team, he'd do a fine job here as well, he would just do better off the ball. Haanif couldn't, but I believe that he could have if he had two hands, he proved time and again that he could only go one direction. 12 months ago almost nobody thought that AR could develop into as good of a PG as he did.
I expect Greg's ball handling to be improved once he has two hands again. When you say passing, I assume you're thinking of the flashy passes that lead to wide open lay ups or alley-oops. While these are nice to be able to do, they are not necessary to be an effective PG. Greg is 4 inches taller than AR so his vision should be better. As for awareness and unselfishness, I think the only players that really struggled there were Markus and Andrew, I thought Greg was fine in those categories. Greg seems like a smart, team first mindset player, so he will do whatever it takes for the team to win.
Greg checks a lot of boxes IMO, and his mindset of always wanting to learn more/being involved and engaged in TO discussions leads me to believe that he will be fine as a PG.
1. There was a reason Wojo didn't want Duane too play PG.
2. Marcus proved this year that he could not play PG. He was as bad against the press as any guard I remember at MU.
3. Haanif had no clue on how to play PG.
4. When I say passing, I am NOT referring to flashy passes that lead to wide open lay ups or alley-oops. I am talking about moving the ball and getting it to guys where they want to receive it. Try watching Chris Paul sometime. He does not rely on "fancy passes". I am talking about getting it into the post when a big gets position. I am talking about driving and dishing.
5. It is about skillset.
Quote from: Jockey on April 06, 2018, 10:45:13 AM
1. There was a reason Wojo didn't want Duane too play PG.
2. Marcus proved this year that he could not play PG. He was as bad against the press as any guard I remember at MU.
3. Haanif had no clue on how to play PG.
4. When I say passing, I am NOT referring to flashy passes that lead to wide open lay ups or alley-oops. I am talking about moving the ball and getting it to guys where they want to receive it. Try watching Chris Paul sometime. He does not rely on "fancy passes". I am talking about getting it into the post when a big gets position. I am talking about driving and dishing.
5. It is about skillset.
Mostly agree with what you're saying, jockey, but again ... one year ago, did you expect Rowsey to be one of the best PGs in the Big East?
With Elliott, we do not know if he can be any good. But we also do not know that he will be bad. Some claim to know, but they don't; mostly they fear.
Like most others here, I'd rather not have to find out if Elliott will be a good PG next season - at least not 30 mpg worth - but I'm going to keep an open mind if it happens.
Lockett and Katin helped teach me not to make snap judgments, and Rowsey far exceeded my expectations this past season. Heck, I've even softened on Heldt; he's slowly winning me over.
If it ends up being the situation, I'll keep an open mind on Elliott - and possible PG Markus, for that matter.
Quote from: Jockey on April 06, 2018, 10:45:13 AM
1. There was a reason Wojo didn't want Duane too play PG.
2. Marcus proved this year that he could not play PG. He was as bad against the press as any guard I remember at MU.
3. Haanif had no clue on how to play PG.
4. When I say passing, I am NOT referring to flashy passes that lead to wide open lay ups or alley-oops. I am talking about moving the ball and getting it to guys where they want to receive it. Try watching Chris Paul sometime. He does not rely on "fancy passes". I am talking about getting it into the post when a big gets position. I am talking about driving and dishing.
5. It is about skillset.
1. It could be that Duane's RSFR year, Derrick was the PG which allowed Duane to be an effective off the ball guard, Wojo saw this, and decided that Duane playing PG would not be best for the team.
2. If you do not think that Markus can improve, you must have been truly blown away by AR this year. Markus can and will get better.
3. Haanif had high turnover numbers his freshman year, but they dropped as his assist numbers stayed consistent. To me that shows improvement at being able to run point. He just needed to be able to use both hands, and he couldn't.
4. Greg was above average at moving the ball, my only complaint was that I wish he would have been more aggressive, knowing when to pass, and when to use a ball fake then drive is something that you learn with time.
5. Can you not develop skills? Greg will be here for 3 more years, I certainly hope he hasn't peaked.
People on both sides of this argument have very odd ideas about what does and doesn't make a point guard.
Quote from: MU82 on April 06, 2018, 10:54:42 AM
Mostly agree with what you're saying, jockey, but again ... one year ago, did you expect Rowsey to be one of the best PGs in the Big East?
With Elliott, we do not know if he can be any good. But we also do not know that he will be bad. Some claim to know, but they don't; mostly they fear.
Like most others here, I'd rather not have to find out if Elliott will be a good PG next season - at least not 30 mpg worth - but I'm going to keep an open mind if it happens.
Lockett and Katin helped teach me not to make snap judgments, and Rowsey far exceeded my expectations this past season. Heck, I've even softened on Heldt; he's slowly winning me over.
If it ends up being the situation, I'll keep an open mind on Elliott - and possible PG Markus, for that matter.
I'll be the 1st to admit I could be wrong about Greg or Markus playing the point.
I guess my point was whether you can turn a player into a PG at the college level. I think it is a pretty hard thing to do.
Quote from: Jockey on April 06, 2018, 12:28:25 PM
I'll be the 1st to admit I could be wrong about Greg or Markus playing the point.
I guess my point was whether you can turn a player into a PG at the college level. I think it is a pretty hard thing to do.
I agree that's its difficult to "make" a PG at this level, but the coaching staff literally just got the absolute most out of AR. I realize that Vander, Duane etc. never really excelled at PG for various reasons, but it would seem like we have an ideal situation going on. Where the staff could tell Greg that he'll be the back up PG next year, so he can spend the entire offseason this year, all of next season, and the entire offseason next year before he would be relied on the be the main PG. With the athletic ability that he already posses, if you give the entire staff 18 more months to work with him, he should be a more than capable PG.
Quote from: TAMU Chardonnay on April 06, 2018, 11:40:25 AM
People on both sides of this argument have very odd ideas about what does and doesn't make a point guard.
TAMU, I'm wondering if you or somebody else who does all the fancy advanced stats have anything regarding Rowsey and Markus in 2016-17 for when each played PG. And then for 2017-18, too.