The two "point guards" on our roster lead our team in field goal attempts in conference play by a wide, wide margin. They are also dead last and 3rd from last (with Harry sandwiched in between) in eFG%.
Going into today, Markus led MU in FG attempts in BE play at 206, Rowsey was second at 158, and then Sam was third at 114.
In terms of overall shooting percentage, Rowsey is dead last on the team in BE play at 36.1%, Markus is 2nd last at 44.7%, and Sam is 6th at 48.2%.
Sam is shooting 47.5% from 3, Markus 37.8%, and Rowsey 37.5%
eFG% Rowsey is dead last at 46.5%, Markus is 3rd last at 53.6%, and Sam is 3rd at 61.0%.
The number of times this season that Sam has been standing in the corner or on the wing wide open waving for the ball while one of Markus or Sam is driving with their head down into 3 defenders that have 8"+ on them is maddening.
The defense isn't good at all, obviously, but it wasn't good at all last year either and we finished 10-8 in the BE. The offense has been a big time letdown, and when your two "point guards" are shoot first, second and third players who struggle to find their teammates and aren't shooting the ball well, well, it's a recipe for a disappointing season.
Moral of the story, this team desperately needs to add a true point guard going into next season. Joey and Morrow (and maybe even Bailey) will be big time help. But if Markus is running the point guard and being backed up by...? Elliott, I guess? Uh-oh.
can sam play the point?
Quote from: GoldenZebra on February 10, 2018, 04:19:34 PM
can sam play the point?
Can he break down a defense off the dribble? I don't think so.
Sum folks here will burst a hemorrhoid tonite if VT tops UVA, aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 10, 2018, 04:23:46 PM
Sum folks here will burst a hemorrhoid tonite if VT tops UVA, aina?
Has zero to do with us.
Less than zero, if that's possible.
In other words ...
Eye doo knot care, henahoo!
Dats yew Nads. Can't deny da heet just rose a few dagrees on Wojo's seat, doe, aina?
Quote from: wadesworld on February 10, 2018, 04:18:04 PM
The two "point guards" on our roster lead our team in field goal attempts in conference play by a wide, wide margin. They are also dead last and 3rd from last (with Harry sandwiched in between) in eFG%.
Going into today, Markus led MU in FG attempts in BE play at 206, Rowsey was second at 158, and then Sam was third at 114.
In terms of overall shooting percentage, Rowsey is dead last on the team in BE play at 36.1%, Markus is 2nd last at 44.7%, and Sam is 6th at 48.2%
Sam is shooting 47.5% from 3, Markus 37.8%, and Rowsey 37.5%
eFG% Rowsey is dead last at 46.5%, Markus is 3rd last at 53.6%, and Sam is 3rd at 61.0%.
The number of times this season that Sam has been standing in the corner or on the wing wide open waving for the ball while one of Markus or Sam is driving with their head down into 3 defenders that have 8"+ on them is maddening.
The defense isn't good at all, obviously, but it wasn't good at all last year either and we finished 10-8 in the BE. The offense has been a big time letdown, and when your two "point guards" are shoot first, second and third players who struggle to find their teammates and aren't shooting the ball well, well, it's a recipe for a disappointing season.
Moral of the story, this team desperately needs to add a true point guard going into next season. Joey and Morrow (and maybe even Bailey) will be big time help. But if Markus is running the point guard and being backed up by...? Elliott, I guess? Uh-oh.
Sabermetric guy here. They have the three highest usages on the team. Markus' eFG% is just fine given his usage, in fact it's very good. eFG% not a problem with this team
I understand your position Wades. But today, Sacar was terrible. Harry and Heldt miss ALOT of bunnies on the roll/slip(not specifically today, but in general). Both GE and JC were scared and would not take the open shot, which resulted in multiple turnovers. When GE drives, he is looking to pass in the lane, not shoot. Sometimes good, oftentimes bad. JC had butterfingers all day long.
Come late in the second half it was all hero ball.
Again, I get your points, but this is an incomplete team.
Today we Desperately needed SA, GE and JC and the were collectively MIA.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 10, 2018, 04:40:22 PM
Dats yew Nads. Can't deny da heet just rose a few dagrees on Wojo's seat, doe, aina?
With the way we are playing, there should be a blast furnace under his ass, but we will really be good next year...or maybe the year after.
9 scholarship players
3 play the same position
2 starting guards <6'. Who lead the team in scoring.
1 senior
1 junior
4 sophomores (one a red-shirt, one who is a freshman in experience but a sophomore in eligibility)
3 outside-the-top-100 freshmen.
4 players returning from last year's team.
I, too, was overly optimistic about what this combination could accomplish. But if you look at that roster in a vacuum and then put it in a top conference, it is fairly easy to see how it could be 5-8.
Yeah, Wojo's tokhes oughta bee blisterin', hey?
Quote from: wadesworld on February 10, 2018, 04:18:04 PM
The two "point guards" on our roster lead our team in field goal attempts in conference play by a wide, wide margin.
Neither are point guards and that is part of the problem.
I believe the Big East coaches and many of the magazines picked us to finish 7th. We are doing as expected by the prognosticators, who could see our talent limitations. Had they known Haanif was going to transfer, they probably would of picked us 8th.
Quote from: tower912 on February 10, 2018, 06:01:35 PM
9 scholarship players
3 play the same position
2 starting guards <6'. Who lead the team in scoring.
1 senior
1 junior
4 sophomores (one a red-shirt, one who is a freshman in experience but a sophomore in eligibility)
3 outside-the-top-100 freshmen.
4 players returning from last year's team.
I, too, was overly optimistic about what this combination could accomplish. But if you look at that roster in a vacuum and then put it in a top conference, it is fairly easy to see how it could be 5-8.
1 Head Coach who has navigated us to the above reality in Year 4 of his tenure. Granted, some felt Wojo was handcuffed last year due to not having all "his guys," and that Duane, JJJ, Luke were empty cupboard remnants that Wojo was shackled with. Yet, we regress in Year 4 with all of Wojo's men.
He's improving some as a coach, but he set a pretty low bar based on Years 1&2. Next year will be the rubber meets the road year. There can be no more excuses for next year's team. Either Wojo gets the job done and the team solidly in the NCAA tournament, or MU needs to consider if they are getting fair ROI.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 10, 2018, 06:13:54 PM
1 Head Coach who has navigated us to the above reality in Year 4 of his tenure. Granted, some felt Wojo was handcuffed last year due to not having all "his guys," and that Duane, JJJ, Luke were empty cupboard remnants that Wojo was shackled with. Yet, we regress in Year 4 with all of Wojo's men.
He's improving some as a coach, but he set a pretty low bar based on Years 1&2. Next year will be the rubber meets the road year. There can be no more excuses for next year's team. Either Wojo gets the job done and the team solidly in the NCAA tournament, or MU needs to consider if they are getting fair ROI.
Yep.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 10, 2018, 06:13:54 PM
1 Head Coach who has navigated us to the above reality in Year 4 of his tenure. Granted, some felt Wojo was handcuffed last year due to not having all "his guys," and that Duane, JJJ, Luke were empty cupboard remnants that Wojo was shackled with. Yet, we regress in Year 4 with all of Wojo's men.
He's improving some as a coach, but he set a pretty low bar based on Years 1&2. Next year will be the rubber meets the road year. There can be no more excuses for next year's team. Either Wojo gets the job done and the team solidly in the NCAA tournament, or MU needs to consider if they are getting fair ROI.
5 years is more than fair.
I concede the point that Wojo is responsible for the roster composition. Do you acknowledge that any coach would be challenged to win big with this roster?
Basketball is about matchups. We match up well against SetonHall but apparantly no one else.
Wojo doesn't know how to defend teams from getting to the rim. Our big guys are playing out of position half the time, leaving the basket open for easy layups.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on February 10, 2018, 06:41:46 PM
Wojo doesn't know how to defend teams from getting to the rim. Our big guys are playing out of position half the time, leaving the basket open for easy layups.
Bigs defend better when others defend better.
We've all seen short guards have their way in CBB (Canaan, Walker, Napier, just to name a few). They just need to play smarted and get the rest of the team more touches.
Quote from: Badgerhater on February 10, 2018, 06:41:17 PM
Basketball is about matchups. We match up well against SetonHall but apparantly no one else.
SHU just lost to GTown, they arent looking as good as we may have thought. 6-6 in BE play.
Quote from: GoldenZebra on February 10, 2018, 06:45:04 PM
SHU just lost to GTown, they arent looking as good as we may have thought. 6-6 in BE play.
Perhaps then that is why we match up well against them.
If they would only ban the high pick and roll.
Quote from: Badgerhater on February 10, 2018, 06:46:32 PM
Perhaps then that is why we match up well against them.
Yeah. Doesnt look good when our "best" win of the season is a middle of the pack BE team.
Meenwhile, VPI kinda has it all goin' on, for now, hey?
Quote from: tower912 on February 10, 2018, 06:40:08 PM
I concede the point that Wojo is responsible for the roster composition. Do you acknowledge that any coach would be challenged to win big with this roster?
Win big with this roster? Yes - I think most coaches would be challenged to win big (as in Top 15 type of performance.)
However, I certainly believe there is enough ability and talent on this team to be in the range of a Top 20-30 team, and upper half of the Big East. Rowsey, Howard, and Hauser are great talents.
We all know that it is a challenge defensively to play to sub 5'11" guards. Yet, if as a coach you want to roll that way, you need to develop a defensive scheme that minimizes your exposure. We are generally out-athleticed/out-sized across the board, and in my view implementing a zone defense from the very first day of practice would have been the best way to go to hide the size/athletic deficiency - 1-3-1 alignment. Lots of ways to "hide" the two midgets in a 1-3-1, and surround them with max length/athleticism - Theo, Hauser, Sacar.
So, we'll disagree. Let's not make it a war this time, ok?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 10, 2018, 06:58:52 PM
Meenwhile, VPI kinda has it all goin' on, for now, hey?
His roster is clearly far superior to ours
Buzz just punched der ticket, aina?
Buzz is a better coach.
I'm not thrilled with Wojo, though I can see more reasons to keep him than to fire him. But IMO, there isn't a debate as to who is a better coach.
I agree with you, but I was waiting for the flame war to begin.
I distinctly recall being frustrated with Buzz in his first year or two. His play calling out of timeouts, and late game execution left me scratching my head (to be polite). It's year four with Wojo and I am scratching my head with Wojo's play calling and the team's execution.
We were dubbed Team Bubble Watch a few times with Buzz. Those teams were just able to get some clutch wins. It's not like we were a 3 seed every year with Buzz at the helm.
Quote from: cheebs09 on February 10, 2018, 08:04:52 PM
We were dubbed Team Bubble Watch a few times with Buzz. Those teams were just able to get some clutch wins. It's not like we were a 3 seed every year with Buzz at the helm.
Those teams played in the old big east and during the transition Crean's players to his.
Quote from: warriorfred on February 10, 2018, 07:52:09 PM
I distinctly recall being frustrated with Buzz in his first year or two. His play calling out of timeouts, and late game execution left me scratching my head (to be polite). It's year four with Wojo and I am scratching my head with Wojo's play calling and the team's execution.
Agree. I wish it weren't so, but, Buzz is a better coach. Too many times this season, we are unprepared on offense and defense. Today is a prime exams where we knew St. John's was a slashing team and we did very little to defend layups. For me the jury is in, Wojo is not a good coach.
Quote from: Badgerhater on February 10, 2018, 08:11:44 PM
Those teams played in the old big east and during the transition Crean's players to his.
We also completely missed the post season in Buzz's last year and the start of the new Big East.
Don't get me wrong. I think Buzz has proven to be a much better coach. Just that I think we sometimes overstate how smooth our path to the tourney was while he was here.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on February 10, 2018, 08:14:02 PM
Agree. I wish it weren't so, but, Buzz is a better coach. Too many times this season, we are unprepared on offense and defense. Today is a prime exams where we knew St. John's was a slashing team and we did very little to defend layups. For me the jury is in, Wojo is not a good coach.
I not sure about coaching, but he is not a good team builder.
Quote from: cheebs09 on February 10, 2018, 08:16:04 PM
We also completely missed the post season in Buzz's last year and the start of the new Big East.
Don't get me wrong. I think Buzz has proven to be a much better coach. Just that I think we sometimes overstate how smooth our path to the tourney was while he was here.
Go back and look at the kenpom rankings for his teams....they are not that close to the bubble. Maybe we weren't as scientific back then about the worst possible record required to make the tourney.
There were a couple times that we were on the bubble with two or three weeks to go, but then got a couple good wins - like VT tonight.
We just suck all the way around
And der y'all have it folks, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 10, 2018, 04:23:46 PM
Sum folks here will burst a hemorrhoid tonite if VT tops UVA, aina?
Given your comments later in this thread, 4ever ... sorry to hear about your condition.
Hopefully, the Preparation H and the foam donut will provide some relief, anus?
Undeniably a great a win for Buzz and he's undeniably a good coach, but any time VT has a good win people act like he's John Wooden. VT will be in the tournament, let's see if they do anything...
Quote from: tower912 on February 10, 2018, 06:40:08 PM
I concede the point that Wojo is responsible for the roster composition. Do you acknowledge that any coach would be challenged to win big with this roster?
I think if you give this team to say, Huggins, they'd be playing far better defense.
I get the on ball defense stinking for Howard. Here are two plays that sum his defense up. St John's guard drives. Howard's help defense is a baby reach on left block that catches arm and commence 3 point play. Later in game, same guy drives on Sacar. Howard's help defense is staying on left block and just watching, probably because he doesn't want to pick up a foul. Now multiply that philosophy x 2 and 5'10" and under.
Basic defensive principles of help defense are out the door, x 2 players. May as well play a triangle and zero defense. You absolutely can not win with two guys playing defense like that. Let's cycle in another Hauser brother that is taller, longer, better driver, better in the post, plays defense, better at blocking shots. Let's cycle in a banger like Morrow. Let's cycle in Greg with two good thumbs.
my sons friend says why is Marquette losing all the time? I said we're better than Depaul
Quote from: Wojos Blueprint on February 11, 2018, 04:27:55 AM
my sons friend says why is Marquette losing all the time? I said we're better than Depaul
Don't be too confident about that.
Quote from: Daniel on February 11, 2018, 12:01:48 AM
I think if you give this team to say, Huggins, they'd be playing far better defense.
No doubt. But Huggins would not be employed by MU. Everything is a choice.
Quote from: LAZER on February 10, 2018, 10:53:12 PM
Undeniably a great a win for Buzz and he's undeniably a good coach, but any time VT has a good win people act like he's John Wooden. VT will be in the tournament, let's see if they do anything...
You need to frame this with appropriate context:
Buzz AT MU:
6 seasons
5 NCAA appearances
2 Sweet 16s
1 Elite 8
Buzz proved he could win, and win pretty big at MU, and do some damage in the tournament.
Buzz took over a VaTech program that was:
169th in the country and finished 2-16 in ACC play prior to his arrival.
Marquette blew it with Buzz. Yes he was quirky AF, but so was Al McGuire. Pilarz, Larry Williams were a train wreck of "leadership." Thankfully, we realized that fairly quickly and got rid of both, but not before the damage had been done and we ran off our best coach since Al.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 11, 2018, 12:56:34 PMMarquette blew it with Buzz. Yes he was quirky AF, but so was Al McGuire. Pilarz, Larry Williams were a train wreck of "leadership." Thankfully, we realized that fairly quickly and got rid of both, but not before the damage had been done and we ran off our best coach since Al.
Buzz is a great basketball coach, but thank god he's gone. We'd be getting flak like Michigan State right now if Buzz was still here.
I don't buy the logic. If NCAA atrocities ocurred when Buzz wuz here, woodant wee bee penalized even thoe he left?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 11, 2018, 01:35:40 PM
I don't buy the logic. If NCAA atrocities ocurred when Buzz wuz here, woodant wee bee penalized even thoe he left?
What happened wasn't an NCAA issue.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 11, 2018, 01:09:36 PM
Buzz is a great basketball coach, but thank god he's gone. We'd be getting flak like Michigan State right now if Buzz was still here.
Wow. Really? I'd never heard things got remotely close to MSU. Please share with us what happened that bordered MSU. I'll hang up and listen.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 11, 2018, 01:56:22 PM
Wow. Really? I'd never heard things got remotely close to MSU. Please share with us what happened that bordered MSU. I'll hang up and listen.
http://archive.jsonline.com/newswatch/132779248.html
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 11, 2018, 01:56:22 PM
Wow. Really? I'd never heard things got remotely close to MSU. Please share with us what happened that bordered MSU. I'll hang up and listen.
Was it so long ago that we forgot the Tribune story? Pretty sure 2011 would be getting reviewed in a modern light if Buzz was still our coach:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-met-marquette-sex-assaults-20110621-story.html
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-met-marquette-sex-cases-20111028-story.html
Read those again in a modern light and tell me we wouldn't be under intense scrutiny right now for this. Buzz leaving saved us from this being back on the front pages all over again.
The difference, of course, is that MU (at least to my knowledge, and I certainly would hope doesn't) doesn't employ someone like Larry Nassar that would bring light to the issues at hand.
It's a good thing Buzz is gone. But Marquette was not going to be looked at like MSU or PSU unless hundreds of children were being sexually assaulted at the school. As far as I know that has never occurred.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 11, 2018, 02:31:25 PM
Was it so long ago that we forgot the Tribune story? Pretty sure 2011 would be getting reviewed in a modern light if Buzz was still our coach:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-met-marquette-sex-assaults-20110621-story.html
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-met-marquette-sex-cases-20111028-story.html
Read those again in a modern light and tell me we wouldn't be under intense scrutiny right now for this. Buzz leaving saved us from this being back on the front pages all over again.
Remember that Ners wrote that off as "a woman scorned" when that first came to light. He may not be the best to judge.
Buzz flat out violated Marquette's Title IX policy when that incident occurred. It's the reason SC was fired and the BOT was concerned about his actions. They were right to be concerned. Their solution was poor.
If that occurred today, he'd be gone by Tuesday. He's lucky.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 11, 2018, 02:31:25 PM
Was it so long ago that we forgot the Tribune story? Pretty sure 2011 would be getting reviewed in a modern light if Buzz was still our coach:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-met-marquette-sex-assaults-20110621-story.html
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-met-marquette-sex-cases-20111028-story.html
Read those again in a modern light and tell me we wouldn't be under intense scrutiny right now for this. Buzz leaving saved us from this being back on the front pages all over again.
I understand that we live in a guilty until proven innocent reality these days, yet not sure you can make the leap that MU under Buzz was a parallel or in the same zip code as MSU.
Furthermore, law enforcement did not press charges in those incidents, and you'd think if Buzz Williams were the scourge of the Earth, another high major institution would not have hired him. Lastly, while the head coach bears ultimate responsibility for the actions of the players within the program, I tend to feel a coach cannot be with his players 24x7 and that 18-22 year old men make dumb decisions on college campuses all over the country.
For context, should the Dean of Admissions be forced out of their position, because a non-athlete undergrad commits an ALLEGED sexual assault? I mean after all, the Dean of Admissions oversees the admissions process to a university, correct? Should they be forced out due to the actions of a student they admit?
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 11, 2018, 03:11:13 PM
I understand that we live in a guilty until proven innocent reality these days, yet not sure you can make the leap that MU under Buzz was a parallel or in the same zip code as MSU.
Furthermore, law enforcement did not press charges in those incidents, and you'd think if Buzz Williams were the scourge of the Earth, another high major institution would not have hired him. Lastly, while the head coach bears ultimate responsibility for the actions of the players within the program, I tend to feel a coach cannot be with his players 24x7 and that 18-22 year old men make dumb decisions on college campuses all over the country.
For context, should the Dean of Admissions be forced out of their position, because a non-athlete undergrad commits an ALLEGED sexual assault? I mean after all, the Dean of Admissions oversees the admissions process to a university, correct? Should they be forced out due to the actions of a student they admit?
I don't think you have a full understanding of what Buzz's responsibilities were as a University employee under Title IX, and how he acted in violation of those policies.
Quote from: #bansultan on February 11, 2018, 03:14:24 PM
I don't think you have a full understanding of what Buzz's responsibilities were as a University employee under Title IX, and how he acted in violation of those policies.
I'm certainly open to being educated on this topic...please elaborate what those responsibilities were, how he violated, and what MU's policy was to remedy such violations. Do we know if Marquette or any other institution has a clearly articulated policy as to what is to happen to a coach for a TitleIX violation?
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 11, 2018, 03:11:13 PM
I understand that we live in a guilty until proven innocent reality these days, yet not sure you can make the leap that MU under Buzz was a parallel or in the same zip code as MSU.
Furthermore, law enforcement did not press charges in those incidents, and you'd think if Buzz Williams were the scourge of the Earth, another high major institution would not have hired him. Lastly, while the head coach bears ultimate responsibility for the actions of the players within the program, I tend to feel a coach cannot be with his players 24x7 and that 18-22 year old men make dumb decisions on college campuses all over the country.
For context, should the Dean of Admissions be forced out of their position, because a non-athlete undergrad commits an ALLEGED sexual assault? I mean after all, the Dean of Admissions oversees the admissions process to a university, correct? Should they be forced out due to the actions of a student they admit?
There is no parallel to MU on the whole and MSU on the whole. But what Buzz did is far more damning than what Izzo did.
Izzo appears to have been ignorant to what was going on with his program. Maybe even willfully ignorant, which would be an issue. But Buzz went out of his way to bring together witnesses in the MU case to ensure they were all on the same page and even had his players contact the victim to get her side of the story. That is not just being "unable to be around his players 24/7." That is going out of his way to help make sure his players weren't convicted of a sexual assault.
That combined with recruiting a player who ended up in jail for rape and another who lit a girl's hair on fire in a chemistry lab and not accepting that the player could not enroll at Marquette led Marquette to rightfully decide it was time to go in a different direction.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 11, 2018, 03:21:53 PM
I'm certainly open to being educated on this topic...please elaborate what those responsibilities were, how he violated, and what MU's policy was to remedy such violations. Do we know if Marquette or any other institution has a clearly articulated policy as to what is to happen to a coach for a TitleIX violation?
Every institution is required to have such a policy or else they are in violation of federal law. Here is what is required of Marquette faculty staff if they "receive information about sexual misconduct involving any university student, faculty or staff member."
http://www.marquette.edu/sexual-misconduct/faculty-staff.php
Their obligation isn't to judge the validity of the action or get more information. Just report the action to a Title IX officer. The Title IX officer, who is hopefully competently trained, takes it from there.
One thing that should NOT be done by an employee, is encourage a student to contact the alleged victim to figure out what the nature of their accusation might be.
Quote from: wadesworld on February 11, 2018, 03:25:06 PMIzzo appears to have been ignorant to what was going on with his program. Maybe even willfully ignorant, which would be an issue. But Buzz went out of his way to bring together witnesses in the MU case to ensure they were all on the same page and even had his players contact the victim to get her side of the story. That is not just being "unable to be around his players 24/7." That is going out of his way to help make sure his players weren't convicted of a sexual assault.
This for me is the issue exactly. Buzz worked to coordinate what was going on with the players and control the story. I can understand why some of the actions were taken (not agreeing, just understand the thinking), but anyone looking at it now would see it in a worse light than it was seen at the time, and it was bad even then.
Understand also I'm not talking about Larry Nassar but specifically about what happened around the MSU basketball and football programs. I think what happened here was as bad, if not worse.
Quote from: #bansultan on February 11, 2018, 03:14:24 PM
I don't think you have a full understanding of what Buzz's responsibilities were as a University employee under Title IX, and how he acted in violation of those policies.
Again, the problem wasn't that Buzz didn't follow Title IX, it was that the university didn't. In fact, the BOT approved policy in place was indeed followed. In the basketball case, the athletes went through adjucation and were in fact disciplined. But there were hundreds of other incidents not involving athletes where Title IX was also not followed, and this seems to be missed in all this. These weren't swept under the rug, per se, as they went through the process in place. MSU chose to ignore Title IX in Athletics it seems and had no other policy.
Why Cottingham was fired was because he wrote the original policy as Legal Counsel and the Title IX guidelines as it relates to these cases were never instituted in that role or later when he became AD. Pilarz would have loved to have taken out Buzz as well at the same time as he took out others, all before he officially took office. He didn't have cause essentially as Buzz's bosses were to blame, including the team meeting and follow which should have been a no-no.
Good stuff Wades, Brew, Sultan. Measured middle ground achieved. Buzz probably should have handled it better, yet knowing Buzz, he looked at his players like his own children and probably was overly protective.
I don't feel it is fair to hold Buzz responsible for what happened in the Clark situation as that happened after the recruitment/prior to Clark getting to campus. Malek Harris? Perhaps questionable choice to recruit - yet we also are a Jesuit institution and part of our education is that of forgiveness/second chances.
I'd say on the whole Buzz's players turned out to be pretty good reps of the university - Jimmy, Jae, Vander, Dwight, all have been "used" to market our basketball program, and all have been pretty good, stand up guys.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 11, 2018, 03:51:54 PMGood stuff Wades, Brew, Sultan. Measured middle ground achieved. Buzz probably should have handled it better, yet knowing Buzz, he looked at his players like his own children and probably was overly protective.
I feel like I see both sides of it. I get why Buzz was protective and as involved at the time as he was, but I also get that in today's climate, events like this are being revisited and what seemed like rational judgments at the time are being evaluated with a different lens than they were given in the past. Honestly, it would surprise me if there didn't end up being a few more significant coaching casualties in the next year or so because of past events like this. I'm sure what happened at MSU and Marquette are not isolated to those two campuses.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 11, 2018, 03:48:47 PM
Again, the problem wasn't that Buzz didn't follow Title IX, it was that the university didn't. In fact, the BOT approved policy in place was indeed followed. In the basketball case, the athletes went through adjucation and were in fact disciplined. But there were hundreds of other incidents not involving athletes where Title IX was also not followed, and this seems to be missed in all this. These weren't swept under the rug, per se, as they went through the process in place. MSU chose to ignore Title IX in Athletics it seems and had no other policy.
Why Cottingham was fired was because he wrote the original policy as Legal Counsel and the Title IX guidelines as it relates to these cases were never instituted in that role or later when he became AD. Pilarz would have loved to have taken out Buzz as well at the same time as he took out others, all before he officially took office. He didn't have cause essentially as Buzz's bosses were to blame, including the team meeting and follow which should have been a no-no.
Buzz was in violation of his responsibilities under the University's Title IX policy.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 11, 2018, 03:51:54 PM
Good stuff Wades, Brew, Sultan. Measured middle ground achieved. Buzz probably should have handled it better, yet knowing Buzz, he looked at his players like his own children and probably was overly protective.
"Probably" should have handled it better???
Without question he should have handled it better. As an employee, he has an obligation to ALL students. Not just those on his team.
Quote from: #bansultan on February 11, 2018, 04:03:43 PM
Buzz was in violation of his responsibilities under the University's Title IX policy.
Again, the entire university administration was in violation of their responsibilities of the federal guidelines on ALL these cases. The BOT-approved policy in place was followed. We all know that it was wrong to do so.
But, you cannot go back and blame a coach and say the university policy that we trained you on was followed, but it shouldn't have because we should have followed this other federal policy we chose to ignore. Oh, and you are to blame for these other 100 similar cases that didn't involve an athlete too because you are the public face of the university.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 11, 2018, 04:19:11 PM
Again, the entire university administration was in violation of their responsibilities of the federal guidelines on ALL these cases. The BOT-approved policy in place was followed. We all know that it was wrong to do so.
But, you cannot go back and blame a coach and say the university policy that we trained you on was followed, but it shouldn't have because we should have followed this other federal policy we chose to ignore. Oh, and you are to blame for these other 100 similar cases that didn't involve an athlete too because you are the public face of the university.
The entirely of Marquette's policy was in violation.
However the obligation by Marquette employees to report WAS in place at the time of the incident. Whether Buzz was properly trained in those obligations, or whether or not he willfully disregarded them, is unknown by me.
Quote from: #bansultan on February 11, 2018, 04:38:44 PM
The entirely of Marquette's policy was in violation.
However the obligation by Marquette employees to report WAS in place at the time of the incident. Whether Buzz was properly trained in those obligations, or whether or not he willfully disregarded them, is unknown by me.
What's incredible in this case, the MSU and other sports cases, is you see the AD telling the coach to handle it. First, as you are pointing out, that is a violation of Title IX. Second, it exposes your highest priced employees to unnecessary legal risk. Third, it will always look like you are covering something up.
Lastly, the press seems very overly focused on frats and athletics in these cases. Granted, the formula for trouble is there and is sensational. However, no real focus is on other victims, which are the vast majority of cases. This has become known as the "Buzz Williams incidents", for example, and the other 100 cases handled in the same poor way are barely mentioned. This was a "Marquette Issue".
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 11, 2018, 04:19:11 PM
Again, the entire university administration was in violation of their responsibilities of the federal guidelines on ALL these cases. The BOT-approved policy in place was followed. We all know that it was wrong to do so.
But, you cannot go back and blame a coach and say the university policy that we trained you on was followed, but it shouldn't have because we should have followed this other federal policy we chose to ignore. Oh, and you are to blame for these other 100 similar cases that didn't involve an athlete too because you are the public face of the university.
This. +1000
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 11, 2018, 05:17:49 PM
What's incredible in this case, the MSU and other sports cases, is you see the AD telling the coach to handle it. First, as you are pointing out, that is a violation of Title IX. Second, it exposes your highest priced employees to unnecessary legal risk. Third, it will always look like you are covering something up.
When you have an AD who's been in place forever, reporting to a president who has been there forever, supported by a trustee that has been there forever (and seems to have conflicts of interest all over the place), let's just say I am not surprised.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 11, 2018, 05:17:49 PM
Lastly, the press seems very overly focused on frats and athletics in these cases. Granted, the formula for trouble is there and is sensational. However, no real focus is on other victims, which are the vast majority of cases. This has become known as the "Buzz Williams incidents", for example, and the other 100 cases handled in the same poor way are barely mentioned. This was a "Marquette Issue".
I know it was. But Buzz should have supposedly known of his obligations. Again, I don't know if he was trained properly. We do annual training where I work. Coaches have been fired for this before.
EDIT: And if Buzz did that now, and that full story got out, he would be fired at many, many places. Not just MU.
Quote from: #bansultan on February 11, 2018, 06:14:25 PM
I know it was. But Buzz should have supposedly known of his obligations. Again, I don't know if he was trained properly. We do annual training where I work. Coaches have been fired for this before.
EDIT: And if Buzz did that now, and that full story got out, he would be fired at many, many places. Not just MU.
As would you or I. Nothing unfair or inconsistent about these federal guidelines no matter the profession.
Quote from: Daniel on February 11, 2018, 12:01:48 AM
I think if you give this team to say, Huggins, they'd be playing far better defense.
Huggins probably would not of recruited any of the players on this team.