Most people would have him comfortably ahead of Dave Leitao, Chris Mullen and Patrick Ewing. The new Butler coach has publicly embarrassed him, so I'd place Wojo behind Lavall Jordan. The others, in my mind, are well ahead at this point.
The bigger question is: Who do we think he can surpass? Otherwise I believe over time Marquette will find itself battled for sixth of seventh place every year.
I would put him ahead of Willard. I think that once this senior class graduates from SH, he will struggle. I don't think it necessarily matters where Wojo is now, as long as he shows the ability to consistently improve year to year.
Hard to say. While Chicos was well maligned around here, his #5yearstojudgeacoach is pretty spot on. Leitao, Ewing, Mullen, and Wojo are all in the middle of rebuilds. Jordan is having a great first year but with zero players that he recruited. Willard sold his soul to get his 2014 recruiting class and now they are all about to graduate. Cooley and McDermott have proven themselves to be capable coaches and if not for some key injuries over the years, I think both may have seen more tournament success at this point. Mack is an elite coach and Wright seems like a future HOFer.
The biggest difference between the 4 guys at the top and 4/6 of the guys at the bottom (not Willard & Leitao)? Years of head coaching experience. No one thought McDermott would be successful after his terrible run at Iowa State. Even Jay Wright struggled his first couple of seasons at Nova. I think Wojo will be able to catch the likes of Cooley and McDermott but could also end up looking like Willard. Next year is a make or break one for Wojo.
He's in the bottom half right now, but there are also some pretty darn good coaches in the conference. He's had ups and downs in his 4 years, but he's improved each year, so that's a plus. He seems to be better than the lower tier of Leitao, Ewing, and Mullin, and I'd also say it's clear that he's far from the likes of Wright, Mack, Cooley, and McDermott. That leaves Willard and Jordan to compare to.
Willard has a 3 20+ win seasons, a conference tournament championship, and 2 consecutive tournament appearances to his credit. I assume he'll be adding another 20 win season and tourney appearance this year as well. Prior to his arrival at SH, they had just one 20 win season in the prior 10, and 2 tournament appearances. He definitely improved the program, although it did take him 5 years to reach the tournament. Right now, I'd say Willard is a better coach than Wojo.
Jordan is harder to compare with his short track record. On the one had, he wasn't all that good at UW-M. On the other hand, he's 2-0 against MU this year, including a complete beat down at our home gym. That makes it hard for me to give Wojo the edge. Time will tell if Jordan just inherited a strong team as part of a good program or if he really has what it takes.
All things considered, I'd say Wojo ranks around 6 or 7 in the conference currently. Seems to be the typical view.
Quote from: skianth16 on February 06, 2018, 11:53:52 AM
Willard has a 3 20+ win seasons, a conference tournament championship, and 2 consecutive tournament appearances to his credit. I assume he'll be adding another 20 win season and tourney appearance this year as well. Prior to his arrival at SH, they had just one 20 win season in the prior 10, and 2 tournament appearances. He definitely improved the program, although it did take him 5 years to reach the tournament. Right now, I'd say Willard is a better coach than Wojo.
Willard is the more accomplished coach, but I think Wojo has a higher coaching ceiling. I wouldn't trade Wojo for Willard.
Quote from: BrewCity83 on February 06, 2018, 12:22:32 PM
Willard is the more accomplished coach, but I think Wojo has a higher coaching ceiling. I wouldn't trade Wojo for Willard.
Honest question here - What gives you that impression? I think we've seen progress from him each year, but I'm not sure I've seen anything yet that makes me think he's going to be any better than Willard.
Quote from: skianth16 on February 06, 2018, 11:53:52 AM
He's in the bottom half right now, but there are also some pretty darn good coaches in the conference. He's had ups and downs in his 4 years, but he's improved each year, so that's a plus. He seems to be better than the lower tier of Leitao, Ewing, and Mullin, and I'd also say it's clear that he's far from the likes of Wright, Mack, Cooley, and McDermott. That leaves Willard and Jordan to compare to.
Willard has a 3 20+ win seasons, a conference tournament championship, and 2 consecutive tournament appearances to his credit. I assume he'll be adding another 20 win season and tourney appearance this year as well. Prior to his arrival at SH, they had just one 20 win season in the prior 10, and 2 tournament appearances. He definitely improved the program, although it did take him 5 years to reach the tournament. Right now, I'd say Willard is a better coach than Wojo.
Jordan is harder to compare with his short track record. On the one had, he wasn't all that good at UW-M. On the other hand, he's 2-0 against MU this year, including a complete beat down at our home gym. That makes it hard for me to give Wojo the edge. Time will tell if Jordan just inherited a strong team as part of a good program or if he really has what it takes.
All things considered, I'd say Wojo ranks around 6 or 7 in the conference currently. Seems to be the typical view.
Lets see how Jordan recruits after losing Martin and Weideman this year, those are big shoes to fill.
Quote from: skianth16 on February 06, 2018, 12:34:48 PM
Honest question here - What gives you that impression? I think we've seen progress from him each year, but I'm not sure I've seen anything yet that makes me think he's going to be any better than Willard.
Willard got a super strong class in Whitehead, Delgado, Sanogo, Rodriguez and Carrington. He's been riding that class for 4 years. Other than Whittehead's soph season before he went early to the draft, I suspect Willard has not been all that good as Seton Hall has been very inconsistent for the talent level on hand. I rate him as very ordinary. Let's see what he does next year. PS, he does have 6'10" transfer Taurean Thompson from Syracuse on board.
#1.
Next question.
Quote from: DCHoopster on February 06, 2018, 12:41:36 PM
Lets see how Jordan recruits after losing Martin and Weideman this year, those are big shoes to fill.
Yes, Martin and Wideman are the backbone of the Butler team. Tough guys to replace.
Quote from: Nukem2 on February 06, 2018, 12:42:59 PM
Willard got a super strong class in Whitehead, Delgado, Sanogo, Rodriguez and Carrington. He's been riding that class for 4 years. Other than Whittehead's soph season before he went early to the draft, I suspect Willard has not been all that good as Seton Hall has been very inconsistent for the talent level on hand. I rate him as very ordinary. Let's see what he does next year. PS, he does have 6'10" transfer Taurean Thompson from Syracuse on board.
Those are all Willard's guys. He's got to get credit for bringing them in. It wasn't just a fluke. Plus, he figured out how to win 25 games with all those sophomore in their second year. Given the way we talk about youth, that should be proof enough that he's a good coach.
I feel like the arguments for Wojo sell every other coach, whether a current Big East coach or a prior MU coach, well short of how good they are. I haven't heard many selling points about Wojo himself, but there are many points about why another team or coach isn't actually as good as they may appear to be.
Quote from: skianth16 on February 06, 2018, 12:54:03 PM
Those are all Willard's guys. He's got to get credit for bringing them in. It wasn't just a fluke. Plus, he figured out how to win 25 games with all those sophomore in their second year. Given the way we talk about youth, that should be proof enough that he's a good coach.
I feel like the arguments for Wojo sell every other coach, whether a current Big East coach or a prior MU coach, well short of how good they are. I haven't heard many selling points about Wojo himself, but there are many points about why another team or coach isn't actually as good as they may appear to be.
Whitehead was a former All American. If Ellenson has stayed I'm sure we'd have won 25 games to.
Quote from: skianth16 on February 06, 2018, 12:54:03 PM
Those are all Willard's guys. He's got to get credit for bringing them in. It wasn't just a fluke. Plus, he figured out how to win 25 games with all those sophomore in their second year. Given the way we talk about youth, that should be proof enough that he's a good coach.
I feel like the arguments for Wojo sell every other coach, whether a current Big East coach or a prior MU coach, well short of how good they are. I haven't heard many selling points about Wojo himself, but there are many points about why another team or coach isn't actually as good as they may appear to be.
Willard is in his 11th year at Seton Hall. It took him until his 8th year to have success. Kind of downhill since then. Wojo is in his 4th season and the cupboard is stocked for next year(though still need that PG). Let's wait a while for comparison.
Quote from: DCHoopster on February 06, 2018, 12:41:36 PM
Lets see how Jordan recruits after losing Martin and Weideman this year, those are big shoes to fill.
That was my first thought. He's doing great with a great roster that he inherited, but he has to prove he can recruit at this level.
Quote from: DCHoopster on February 06, 2018, 12:41:36 PM
Lets see how Jordan recruits after losing Martin and Weideman this year, those are big shoes to fill.
Well we do know Coach Jordan has Jordan Tucker as a mid season transfer from Duke .
Did Willard catch lighting in bottle with the 14 class? Yes. Can he do it again? Possibly, but it seems to me that his senior class this year was similar to Crean with the amigos. Unless Willard can get another great class like that, or more consistent balanced, good classes, he will struggle. The timing of his great class couldn't have been better for the new conference though.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 06, 2018, 01:15:58 PM
Did Willard catch lighting in bottle with the 14 class? Yes. Can he do it again? Possibly, but it seems to me that his senior class this year was similar to Crean with the amigos. Unless Willard can get another great class like that, or more consistent balanced, good classes, he will struggle. The timing of his great class couldn't have been better for the new conference though.
And it took him seven years to get that class.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 06, 2018, 01:15:58 PM
Did Willard catch lighting in bottle with the 14 class? Yes. Can he do it again? Possibly, but it seems to me that his senior class this year was similar to Crean with the amigos. Unless Willard can get another great class like that, or more consistent balanced, good classes, he will struggle. The timing of his great class couldn't have been better for the new conference though.
http://www.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/index.ssf/2017/09/seton_hall_confirms_transfer_of_former_syracuse_player_taurean_thompson.html
Quote from: Nukem2 on February 06, 2018, 01:09:50 PM
Willard is in his 11th year at Seton Hall. It took him until his 8th year to have success. Kind of downhill since then. Wojo is in his 4th season and the cupboard is stocked for next year(though still need that PG). Let's wait a while for comparison.
He's in his eighth year. He had a 20 win season but no tourney bid in his second year. In year 6 he made the tournament for the first time, and this year will make 3 straight appearances and 3 straight 20 win seasons. Yeah, he got to 25 wins in 2016, but he's followed that up with 2 pretty good seasons. Seasons I'd take over our last 2 years.
So right now, I think it's hard to not give Willard the edge over Wojo.
Quote from: Nukem2 on February 06, 2018, 01:18:49 PM
And it took him seven years to get that class.
I think you're missing his years at Iona prior to the SH gig.
Quote from: skianth16 on February 06, 2018, 01:21:28 PM
I think you're missing his years at Iona prior to the SH gig.
Yep. But, his first 4 or 5 years were .500ish or below other than that 20 win season (with transfer Herb Pope). As another poster noted, he sorta got lightning in a bottle with that one class with 5 guys from the NYC/Newark area that decided to go to school together. Let's see how he does in the next 2 seasons. Also, he was on thin ice at SHU for a while because of performance and off court team issues.
Quote from: Nukem2 on February 06, 2018, 01:33:41 PM
Yep. But, his first 4 or 5 years were .500ish or below other than that 20 win season (with transfer Herb Pope). As another poster noted, he sorta got lightning in a bottle with that one class with 5 guys from the NYC/Newark area that decided to go to school together. Let's see how he does in the next 2 seasons. Also, he was on thin ice at SHU for a while because of performance and off court team issues.
The four seniors also kinda ran the team this year, with Sanogo apparently being on the verge of being dismissed from the team until the other seniors talked to Willard. Can't imagine the AD and other higher ups were too happy about that.
Quote from: Nukem2 on February 06, 2018, 01:33:41 PM
Yep. But, his first 4 or 5 years were .500ish or below other than that 20 win season (with transfer Herb Pope). As another poster noted, he sorta got lightning in a bottle with that one class with 5 guys from the NYC/Newark area that decided to go to school together. Let's see how he does in the next 2 seasons. Also, he was on thin ice at SHU for a while because of performance and off court team issues.
There was also some sketchiness around getting that 2014 class. I forget who but Willard gave a job to a relative or coach of Whitehead in exchange for steering Whitehead to the program who in turn steered other players in that class to Seton Hall.
The question I would ask is, can Wojo consistently get us to the Dance in coming years and have some runs as well? Whether he is better than a specific coach or not is interesting but not the real objective. It is kind of an indirect approach to the issue. Having said that what you suggest as a ranking sounds reasonable IMO.
Not sure what most people are looking for but given the money , commitment of the school and our history I would hope we are looking for a Mack or a McDermott level coach. It that eventually happens I think the wolves will disappear. You are correct Jay Wright is special and they do not come around very often.
Quote from: skianth16 on February 06, 2018, 01:20:45 PM
He's in his eighth year. He had a 20 win season but no tourney bid in his second year. In year 6 he made the tournament for the first time, and this year will make 3 straight appearances and 3 straight 20 win seasons. Yeah, he got to 25 wins in 2016, but he's followed that up with 2 pretty good seasons. Seasons I'd take over our last 2 years.
So right now, I think it's hard to not give Willard the edge over Wojo.
Honestly, I think the only justification for Willard ahead of Wojo is that he's been around longer. I'm not disputing that as a valid argument, but as you note, both missed in their second year with 20 win seasons, but Wojo got there in 3 years while it took Willard 6. We may miss this year, but on paper there's no excuse for us not getting there each of the next two years (2019 and 2020).
I'd also argue Wojo has been a better recruiter. Sure, Willard had that one great class, but otherwise hasn't really done much and once these guys leave, I don't see much standing behind Seton Hall and the basement. Pretty sure Delgado, Carrington, and Rodriguez are the only reason he's still employed, and it wouldn't surprise me if he ends up unemployed sooner rather than later without them.