Wow. Just wow.
Whole team hit the wall?
Scouting report has gotten around and everyone now has a plan to defend MU's shooters?
I can't decide which of Sam's missed turnarounds was my favorite.
Just like I can't decide which one of Rowsey's disasters was my favorite. The shots or the passes.
Just like I can't decide which end of shotclock made slop was my favorite.
Or which of Wideman's outmuscling every body on the entire team plays was my favorite.
Or the actual blocked shot by Elliot that deflected off Sam AND Harry.
Or the Butler player making his second 3 of the year.
One of those nights where you really miss having 13 players, as the end of the bench guys could have used some run.
Did MU have any assists tonight?
Astounding. I am generally an optimistic person but that was the worst game of the Wojo era.
Yeah, they have 9 assists with three to go, but 12 tirunovers, and getting pounded on boards. Ain't over for the stats yet.
Only stat that matters today is eFG%.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on January 31, 2018, 10:11:22 PM
Only stat that matters tiday is eFG%.
And the final score.
Froling took another 3. Bad sign.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on January 31, 2018, 10:11:22 PM
Only stat that matters tiday is eFG%.
If this is true, then we beat Nova and I just didn't realize it.
Or the times in which big guys couldn't decide to rotate in defense or get in position to rebound and did neither.
I still think Wojo is building something but doubts persist.
Quote from: forgetful on January 31, 2018, 10:14:39 PM
If this is true, then we beat Nova and I just didn't realize it.
today. words matta.
outclassed in every aspect. Also did anyone catch the announcers mentions that a YOUNG butler team is 11-1 at home. Wish we had a young team that could do the same. No more excuses, Beat Providence at pack it up.
In year four of the Wojo era, never would I have thought that Virginia Tech would be in a better position from a program standpoint. They are once again looking like a solid tournament team. We are currently on the outside looking in. Crazy.
We have to take the golf match play approach. Forget about the last hole and try to win the next . We have the talent to win all the rest of our games .
Quote from: Herman Cain on January 31, 2018, 10:20:18 PM
We have to take the golf match play approach. Forget about the last hole and try to win the next . We have the talent to win all the rest of our games .
You're freakin crazy. This team has a better shot at losing out then winning out
Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on January 31, 2018, 10:21:44 PM
You're freakin crazy. This team has a better shot at losing out then winning out
Spoke too soon. Agree 100 percent.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on January 31, 2018, 10:19:25 PM
In year four of the Wojo era, never would I have thought that Virginia Tech would be in a better position from a program standpoint. They are once again looking like a solid tournament team. We are currently on the outside looking in. Crazy.
No we aren't. But if we lose Saturday we are.
Not usually the negative type, but the boys are in trouble. Not even sure I can see 5-3 right now. Beat PC, lose at SH. 5-7 with with six to go. Sweep bottom 3, split with Creighton. 6-2 is Doable but man....
Just disgusted.
Quote from: yetipro on January 31, 2018, 10:14:29 PM
Froling took another 3. Bad sign.
Eh, at that point, Sacar was guarding Wideman, and Sam had just been playing the 5. The wheels were off the wagon. Wojo was trying new things, so Harry shooting didn't even matter. Although maybe, just maybe people will now see that he's not a stretch 5 that can play on the perimeter. Maybe.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on January 31, 2018, 10:19:25 PM
In year four of the Wojo era, never would I have thought that Virginia Tech would be in a better position from a program standpoint. They are once again looking like a solid tournament team. We are currently on the outside looking in. Crazy.
Marquette was ahead of VT in every measurable manner heading into tonight's game.
So not really.
I'm an optimist by nature, very bullish on the program.
But even optimists like me can't sugarcoat this one. For the first time in a very, very long time, I actually stopped watching (though I did keep the volume on while I worked in the next room, just to make sure I didn't miss an injury or something).
The beautiful thing is that despite all the "must win" talk, it really wasn't a must win. And, as the cliche goes, it's only one loss, whether by 1 point or by the 861 points Butler beat us by tonight.
But I'm now officially on-board as saying Providence at home on National Marquette Day is about as close to Must Win as a team can get (without it technically being a must win). Gotta show up strong, play great, get the home win and build momentum for the stretch run.
From Jan. 28 to Feb. 11 last season, we had a 1-4 stretch that was capped by a dumpster-fire loss to a bad Georgetown team. We responded with a huge 4-1 stretch that began with a National Marquette Day win over Xavier.
We need another one of those. And it starts Saturday.
Go Marquette!
VT with 3 nice wins in a row. 2 on the road.
Quote from: Herman Cain on January 31, 2018, 10:20:18 PM
We have to take the golf match play approach. Forget about the last hole and try to win the next . We have the talent to win all the rest of our games .
Again, like in the past, you must be on some sort of opioids. Just strange....
-MU defense again gave up 60% fg rate, too many open threes (8-14), got destroyed inside.
-Baldwin annihilated Rowsey and Bardo even agreed, no match. Wait for Creighton and Foster/Thomas, ugh.
-Just a terrible performance in all aspects.
-Have to win some home games and protect the court, just not happening.
Now, Providence who we beat in OT, without Bullock, without Diallo in first half and a miracle 52 pt performance by Howard. Then three straight on the road, with not so good play since the Seton Hall game. Wojo not happy leaving the court, this could get interesting.
Butler has won 11 of the last 14 against us. That being said, this was an awful display on our home court, with blame shared between coaches and players.
Just disgusting.
Things change when a team is up against the wall. Like most of us, we were all feeling pretty comfortable coming into this one and saying that it wasn't a must win. All I'm saying is, we're now entering must-win territory for many of our remaining games. If this were an absolute must-win game going in, the result of the game could have been totally different.
If we believe in the drive these kids have to win, they can get refocused with the extra motivation and look like a new team. We've seen it in the past.
Quote from: nyg on January 31, 2018, 10:32:32 PM
Again, like in the past, you must be on some sort of opioids. Just strange....
-MU defense again gave up 60% fg rate, too many open threes (8-14), got destroyed inside.
-Baldwin annihilated Rowsey and Bardo even agreed, no match. Wait for Creighton and Foster/Thomas, ugh.
-Just a terrible performance in all aspects.
-Have to win some home games and protect the court, just not happening.
Now, Providence who we beat in OT, without Bullock, without Diallo in first half and a miracle 52 pt performance by Howard. Then three straight on the road, with not so good play since the Seton Hall game. Wojo not happy leaving the court, this could get interesting.
100% agree. Hate saying it, but I don't think this team has much fight in them. Its amazing how quickly your tournament hope can go up in flames.
A bunch of small, slow guys just rung us a for 92 points at home. With a first year Horizon Coach. Wow!
Quote from: yetipro on January 31, 2018, 10:34:35 PM
Things change when a team is up against the wall. Like most of us, we were all feeling pretty comfortable coming into this one and saying that it wasn't a must win. All I'm saying is, we're now entering must-win territory for many of our remaining games. If this were an absolute must-win game going in, the result of the game could have been totally different.
If we believe in the drive these kids have to win, they can get refocused with the extra motivation and look like a new team. We've seen it in the past.
Extra Motivation? we sure as H**** aren't Nova, We came off of a 9 day break and got blown out, lost to Nova, and our last win was against DePual. What more motivation show D1 athletes need?
Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on January 31, 2018, 10:18:54 PM
outclassed in every aspect. Also did anyone catch the announcers mentions that a YOUNG butler team is 11-1 at home. Wish we had a young team that could do the same. No more excuses, Beat Providence at pack it up.
Young Butler team? They played 2 seniors and a junior
Quote from: nyg on January 31, 2018, 10:32:32 PM
Again, like in the past, you must be on some sort of opioids. Just strange....
-MU defense again gave up 60% fg rate, too many open threes (8-14), got destroyed inside.
-Baldwin annihilated Rowsey and Bardo even agreed, no match. Wait for Creighton and Foster/Thomas, ugh.
-Just a terrible performance in all aspects.
-Have to win some home games and protect the court, just not happening.
Now, Providence who we beat in OT, without Bullock, without Diallo in first half and a miracle 52 pt performance by Howard. Then three straight on the road, with not so good play since the Seton Hall game. Wojo not happy leaving the court, this could get interesting.
We had a bad game. We will better next game.
Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on January 31, 2018, 10:40:09 PM
Extra Motivation? we sure as H**** aren't Nova, We came off of a 9 day break and got blown out, lost to Nova, and our last win was against DePual. What more motivation show D1 athletes need?
I think you need to take a deep breath and maybe go to bed. A few of you guys got a little two far into your Milwaukee's Best tonight. You'll be more rational in the AM.
Quote from: cheese ball chaser on January 31, 2018, 10:41:43 PM
Young Butler team? They played 2 seniors and a junior
And if Hanni was still here we would start 1 senior and a jr...we still called ourselves a young team to start the season.
Quote from: yetipro on January 31, 2018, 10:43:02 PM
I think you need to take a deep breath and maybe go to bed. A few of you guys got a little two far into your Milwaukee's Best tonight. You'll be more rational in the AM.
Really? everything i just stated are facts. how are you going to argue this?
Going to sulk till next win.
I'm going to forgive rowsey for this one. The only thing I can't forgive is if he's checked out. Don't think he has. Just a horrible game. Let's see what Providence brings.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on January 31, 2018, 10:28:03 PM
Marquette was ahead of VT in every measurable manner heading into tonight's game.
So not really.
Also, Buzz took all of his recruits with him and left us with a dumpster fire. His team *should* be better than us. There's plenty of basketball left to be played before the tournament.
Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on January 31, 2018, 10:43:29 PM
And if Hanni was still here we would start 1 senior and a jr...we still called ourselves a young team to start the season.
I wasn't talking about Marquette, I'm saying that the "young Butler" comment isn't true
Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on January 31, 2018, 10:44:40 PM
Really? everything i just stated are facts. how are you going to argue this?
Lol. You are asking me to argue that we in fact didn't lose to Nova, etc? I guess I can try, if you want.
All I was saying was, a team faced with a "do or die" scenario will either come together, say enough is enough, refocus, and do whatever it takes. Most of the players were flat tonight. We're getting to the point of the year where we can't just live to fight another day. This game could be the "shock" they need to realize that it's now or never.
That's why I actually am in favor of Wojo's approach in the game. Let the players experience it, grow up as men, and get tougher. They didn't need to be babied along and told any coachisms. Just let them deal with the emotions in full and hope that they confront it.
Quote from: Mutaman on January 31, 2018, 10:32:15 PM
VT with 3 nice wins in a row. 2 on the road.
Is that right? How did USC, Boise State or Savannah State do? You know, since those teams have as much importance to anyone on this board except smucks who can't get a life
Seriously, who gives a sh*t about Virginia Tech?
Quote from: Herman Cain on January 31, 2018, 10:42:32 PM
We had a bad game. We will better next game.
Yes, if:
-They stop giving up 90 points a game
-They stop getting in foul trouble eight minutes into the game
-They limit opposition to less than the 60% range they have been averaging
-They have Howard/Rowsey/Hauser all have one good game together
Thats just the start and I presume Wojo is going ballistic right now, contemplating shaking things up. How, no clue but just a feeling based upon his actions/demeanor tonight in closing minutes and leaving court. He had a different look.
I was really impressed with the way Butler played defense. It shows what happens when a team plays as a team. When a Butler guys is defending his man he funnels him towards his teammate so the MU guy ends up driving into a double team without the 2nd guy having to give up his man. Its all team defense. On offense they move without the ball so they get into position for offensive rebounds or drop off. MU guys simply stand around if the play isn't being run for them.
I was concerned when Wojo got here that his success at Duke was based on managing Super talent much more than insisting on team play and coaching schemes that hide weakness and make lesser players better. I'm afraid that is what we're seeing. MU simply doesn't play as a team and it shows up the most on defense because that is where team play is most important. Butler does it MU doesn't and otherwise the teams are pretty evenly match as far as experience and talent level.
We play soft
Quote from: NotAnAlum on January 31, 2018, 11:05:28 PM
I was really impressed with the way Butler played defense. It shows what happens when a team plays as a team. When a Butler guys is defending his man he funnels him towards his teammate so the MU guy ends up driving into a double team without the 2nd guy having to give up his man. Its all team defense. On offense they move without the ball so they get into position for offensive rebounds or drop off. MU guys simply stand around if the play isn't being run for them.
I was concerned when Wojo got here that his success at Duke was based on managing Super talent much more than insisting on team play and coaching schemes that hide weakness and make lesser players better. I'm afraid that is what we're seeing. MU simply doesn't play as a team and it shows up the most on defense because that is where team play is most important. Butler does it MU doesn't and otherwise the teams are pretty evenly match as far as experience and talent level.
Hasn't Butler had like three coaches in four years?
Well, I thought Sacar did pretty good tonight. That's 2 games in a row for him.
(http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/09/d3/41/09d341f46a6e64471cd3ab6fdbcef29f.jpg)
Just some random questions after watching this -
1) When did we transition our offense back to the 5 pass weave at the top of the circle?
2) Instead of paint touches, are we now counting how many times we pass it inside the 3 point arc? There are times when this is a rarity.
3) Why does Rowsey have a longer leash than others on the team?
4) How many points did Rowsey give up vs. the rest?
5) Am I the only one who would rather give up three's playing a zone rather than 100% layups and dunks under the basket?
6) When will Wojo figure out how to defend the pick and roll?
7) Is it time to send a message to some of the players that haven't been playing too well?
8) Why do I still think that Butler is not that good?
Theo actually looks some what comfortable now on the court
Quote from: Herman Cain on January 31, 2018, 10:20:18 PM
We have to take the golf match play approach. Forget about the last hole and try to win the next . We have the talent to win all the rest of our games .
Actually, we do not. This team has been getting torched. Trashed again at home. Good grief.
Biggest issue is 9 days off in mid January, then two of three at home in a week's time. Three L's, two of them getting hammered, is not good. Stiff competition yes, but to make the tournament, gotta start beating good competition. This was definitely a low point in the Woj era.
Butler played really well and we played as poorly as we've played all year. I was surprised at just how awful we looked. An ugly, disappointing loss.
The season is far from over, but we need to turn things around quickly and dramatically. On to Saturday.
Go Marquette!
Quote from: NotAnAlum on January 31, 2018, 11:05:28 PM
I was really impressed with the way Butler played defense. It shows what happens when a team plays as a team. When a Butler guys is defending his man he funnels him towards his teammate so the MU guy ends up driving into a double team without the 2nd guy having to give up his man. Its all team defense.
This is a great point. In their man defense, MU rarely looks "connected." It's five guys doing their own thing and hoping there's help.
Maybe they need to carry more bricks around between now and Saturday.
Brian Wardle's Bradley team beat #1 MVC Loyola tonight at home to improve to 17-7. Only good news for Marquette Basketball tonight.
Some thoughts:
1) time to limit the exposure with Howard and Rowsey on the floor together. Maybe 10 minutes per game. They both are weak defenders, and neither is a great ball-handler/floor general.
2) Elliott seems the best of the guards at driving and distributing. Maybe he needs a few more minutes, and to run more of a true point.
3) I don't mind the post attempts with Hauser early. I think the game plan was for him to make a few, then Butler collapses on him allowing him to kick for open 3's.
4) Heldt should start, he's more physical.
5) maybe this team is too slow for man to man defense, and needs to mix in more zone. Hauser is slow for a 4, Heldt and Froling are slow. Rowsey and Howard allow too many guys to drive past them. Our best defenders are Heldt, Elliot, Anim, and John, with Hauser getting honorable mention because he's often guarding guys physically bigger/stronger than himself.
Bring out the white tees
Quote from: AZMarqfan on January 31, 2018, 11:30:38 PM
Some thoughts:
1) time to limit the exposure with Howard and Rowsey on the floor together. Maybe 10 minutes per game. They both are weak defenders, and neither is a great ball-handler/floor general.
2) Elliott seems the best of the guards at driving and distributing. Maybe he needs a few more minutes, and to run more of a true point.
3) I don't mind the post attempts with Hauser early. I think the game plan was for him to make a few, then Butler collapses on him allowing him to kick for open 3's.
4) Heldt should start, he's more physical.
5) maybe this team is too slow for man to man defense, and needs to mix in more zone. Hauser is slow for a 4, Heldt and Froling are slow. Rowsey and Howard allow too many guys to drive past them. Our best defenders are Heldt, Elliot, Anim, and John, with Hauser getting honorable mention because he's often guarding guys physically bigger/stronger than himself.
1) Then their max is an average of 25 mpg. That's a horrible game plan.
2) Elliott's assist rate is 12.7%; turnover rate is over 20%. And by the eye test, no, crazy suggetsion.
3) I'm fine with it. We're lucky he wasn't called for the arm.
4) No. Froling should.
5) Bad strategy.
IMO.
Quote from: cheese ball chaser on January 31, 2018, 10:45:17 PM
Also, Buzz took all of his recruits with him and left us with a dumpster fire. His team *should* be better than us. There's plenty of basketball left to be played before the tournament.
Per Luke Wynn of SI we had the most (9) RSCI Top 100 recruits on last year's team. That was more than 4 contending BE teams combined. I don't think Buzz killed us like you think he did.
Quote from: The Lens on February 01, 2018, 12:12:46 AM
Per Luke Wynn of SI we had the most (9) RSCI Top 100 recruits last year. I don't think Buzz killed us like you think he did.
I'm not going to look up the list of everyone who followed Buzz to VT, but in his last year at MU we were 17-15 and subsequently graduated 4 seniors from our roster. Just look at what Buzz inherited when be took over at MU vs what Wojo inherited.
WOOOOOOF
That was my first game at the Bradley Center this year. Walking out, I honestly couldn't think of a time where I had witnessed a worse beating in that building.
This is the first time all season where my confidence has been shaken. I came into the season expecting to either make the NCAAs by the skin of our teeth or to be a high seed in the NIT. But almost every game to this point has made me more confident that we would end up on the right side of the bubble. This one...nothing went right. This was a team playing at it's absolute floor. It's the kind of loss that can make you question how good your team really is.
But in the end, it is only one game. As others have said it doesn't matter if you lose by 1 or 100. Tomorrow is another day. I know us college basketball fans are in the "what have you done for me lately crowd" but this is the same team that hung with #1 Villanova till the very end a few days ago. This is the same team that demolished Seton Hall by 20. This is the same team that handed Bucky their 2nd worst home less in program history (looking less impressive every day). Tonight, we were our worst selves on the court. On Saturday, we could be our best.
As demoralizing as this loss was, nothing has changed. 6-2 to lock up a bid and 5-3 to have a good shot at one. We're getting to a favorable part of our schedule so this is very doable. Last year it seemed like we were done after a garbage Georgetown team whooped us by 18. We went on to win 4 of 5 to make the dance with room to spare.
What would make me optimistic is that this game makes the team play with more intensity the rest of the way (each game). What would make me pessimistic about the future is status quo the rest of the way. Team needs be prepared and execute with so much more intensity.
The secone time through the BEast is always harder than the first.
Does this team have chemistry problems? I have zero insight but I'm not sure they all enjoy playing with each other. These guards are great individual players but don't get others involved AT ALL. That can get old quick.
Obviously plenty of blame to go around though.
Putrid game. Just putrid.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on February 01, 2018, 05:25:43 AM
Does this team have chemistry problems?
Putrid game. Just putrid.
I've been wondering about this in recent weeks.
We've got talent, but we're a middle of the pack team until we learn to play as a team. I missed last night's game (thank God) and it was not on television in South Florida so I cannot speak to what caused the dumpster fire, but I have watched all too many games where we're down to less than 10 seconds on the shot clock and someone jacks up a shot in hopes something will fall.
It seems to me we should have beaten Butler, probably twice this year. We're generally not tough enough and whether we win or not depends on shootings 3s. The rest of the conference is getting smart to us and plays tight perimeter defense. They'll give up a 2 to keep Rowsey, Howard and Hauser from garroting them from outside.
After sleeping on it to calm down.....
From a coaching perspective, that was very Crean-esque. When punched in the mouth, there was no plan b. Part of that is roster make up and lack of depth and experience. I remember debating whether Creans inability to adjust in game when things were going off the rails was due to a lack of options or a coaching inadequacy. History has gone on to show the answer was 'both'.
So the question about last night and going forward is this. Is it roster or coaching, scheme or execution? For now, I am going to default to 9 players, 7 of whom are freshmen and sophomores. But I used to say that about Crean, too, until I came to believe at the end that he lacked the ability to improve as a coach.
Quote from: tower912 on February 01, 2018, 07:15:06 AM
After sleeping on it to calm down.....
From a coaching perspective, that was very Crean-esque. When punched in the mouth, there was no plan b. Part of that is roster make up and lack of depth and experience. I remember debating whether Creans inability to adjust in game when things were going off the rails was due to a lack of options or a coaching inadequacy. History has gone on to show the answer was 'both'.
So the question about last night and going forward is this. Is it roster or coaching, scheme or execution? For now, I am going to default to 9 players, 7 of whom are freshmen and sophomores. But I used to say that about Crean, too, until I came to believe at the end that he lacked the ability to improve as a coach.
Young, inexperienced, yes, but this is last year of that.
Add Morrow and a high tier grad PG transfer and they are in business. I guess....
Adjustments are required during game and I don't really know if Wojo does that properly. The defense adjustments have to be changed somehow, somewhere and maybe that can be a change in the assistant coaching ranks. Bring in an experienced defensive assistant, who can implement a new scheme because the current one is just not happening. Yes, I realize some will say, its the players who execute, but good grief some adjustment after four years is need.
The real surprise was late in half and Howard like tweaked his foot/knee and MU was down 25. No subbing out for Howard was kind of strange and maybe he should of been pulled. At this point Wojo had given up, was sitting down just giving death stares to the players.
I don't know what the answer is but I will say that this is the first time we walked out at the under 8 timeout since the Missou disaster.
100% unwatchable. Sure makes me excited for all the NMD festivities. (I didn't need teal, did I?) That said, I'm always happy to see friends, etc.
Chick and I did enjoy the beer garden gathering. You know who you are. :)
Quote from: MU82 on January 31, 2018, 10:31:10 PM
For the first time in a very, very long time, I actually stopped watching
I too turned off the tv with about 10 min to go in the second half. My wife (Purdue grad) looked at me concerned, and possibly scared for her life. I can count on a few fingers how many times I've done that in the last 20 years (Kansas Final Four game stands out).
Disgusted. Embarrassed. Confused.
Quote from: tower912 on February 01, 2018, 07:15:06 AM
After sleeping on it to calm down.....
From a coaching perspective, that was very Crean-esque. When punched in the mouth, there was no plan b. Part of that is roster make up and lack of depth and experience. I remember debating whether Creans inability to adjust in game when things were going off the rails was due to a lack of options or a coaching inadequacy. History has gone on to show the answer was 'both'.
So the question about last night and going forward is this. Is it roster or coaching, scheme or execution? For now, I am going to default to 9 players, 7 of whom are freshmen and sophomores. But I used to say that about Crean, too, until I came to believe at the end that he lacked the ability to improve as a coach.
You know what? When the ref was hollering at Wojo about being out of the coaching box with about 12 minutes to go he should have taken a double T and walked out. Back in the locker room he could have planned the midnight sprints until everyone puked. For those too young, that's exactly what Al would have done. You think I'm kidding? There's an infamous DePaul game at old Alumni Hall where that essentially happened.
Quote from: jsglow on February 01, 2018, 07:56:11 AM
Back in the locker room he could have planned the midnight sprints until everyone puked. For those too young, that's exactly what Al would have done.
That might be a good idea. Although if that happened, this morning we might be discussing the 2-3-4 players who are newly transferring.
Quote from: tower912 on February 01, 2018, 07:15:06 AM
After sleeping on it to calm down.....
From a coaching perspective, that was very Crean-esque. When punched in the mouth, there was no plan b. Part of that is roster make up and lack of depth and experience. I remember debating whether Creans inability to adjust in game when things were going off the rails was due to a lack of options or a coaching inadequacy. History has gone on to show the answer was 'both'.
So the question about last night and going forward is this. Is it roster or coaching, scheme or execution? For now, I am going to default to 9 players, 7 of whom are freshmen and sophomores. But I used to say that about Crean, too, until I came to believe at the end that he lacked the ability to improve as a coach.
The fact that the jury is still very much out on just how good of a coach Wojo is is very alarming
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on February 01, 2018, 08:12:06 AM
That might be a good idea. Although if that happened, this morning we might be discussing the 2-3-4 players who are newly transferring.
Understand. But the total lack of any discipline on this team is alarming.
BE teams have figured MU out. Never give help on the inside. Ever. Because NO ONE can score down there with any consistency. Sure teams will live with the occasional Sacar drive or the Sam turn around. But you don't give up the three. And if Markus or Rowsey drive, you collapse on them because they are so small.
Literally NO ONE outside Sacar can take it to the basket with any authority. Jamal and Elliott are not bulky enough. The other guards are midgets. Everyone else is too slow. And even Sacar has vast limitations.
We've gone from teams obsessed with paint touches but who can't shoot, to teams who only can shoot but whose best interior option is a pu$$y a$$ floater from a 5'11" guard.
That was the most disappointing loss of the Wojo era and really does give me all sorts of concerns about the future regardless of who is showing up next year.
Quote from: jsglow on February 01, 2018, 08:19:38 AM
Understand. But the total lack of any discipline on this team is alarming.
Maybe it's Wojo who should be running midnight sprints?
Marquette can shoot the lights out from deep. If an opposing team is able to take that away and/or MU's shots aren't falling, they have nothing else.
Markus has been driving more, but he's still 5'10" and doesn't look to dish. Rowsey (also 5'10") is the only other guy who can consistently get his own shot...and some of the shots he gets are not ideal. MU shoots FTs incredibly well, but they're in the bottom 25% in all of college basketball at actually getting to the line. They don't rebound particularly well. They can't defend at all. There's no real post threat offensively. There's an obvious strength - and that strength is about as strong as any team's in the country - but they really have nothing else to fall back on if that's not working.
Quote from: NickelDimer on February 01, 2018, 08:31:46 AM
Maybe it's Wojo who should be running midnight sprints?
Can't have the coaches run Midnight sprints, it would screw up their Noon Ball game.
Quote from: #bansultan on February 01, 2018, 08:27:50 AM
BE teams have figured MU out. Never give help on the inside. Ever. Because NO ONE can score down there with any consistency. Sure teams will live with the occasional Sacar drive or the Sam turn around. But you don't give up the three. And if Markus or Rowsey drive, you collapse on them because they are so small.
Literally NO ONE outside Sacar can take it to the basket with any authority. Jamal and Elliott are not bulky enough. The other guards are midgets. Everyone else is too slow. And even Sacar has vast limitations.
We've gone from teams obsessed with paint touches but who can't shoot, to teams who only can shoot but whose best interior option is a pu$$y a$$ floater from a 5'11" guard.
That was the most disappointing loss of the Wojo era and really does give me all sorts of concerns about the future regardless of who is showing up next year.
100% agree. We've been figured out. Teams can be coached to stop us. And we can't stop anyone.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on February 01, 2018, 08:12:06 AM
That might be a good idea. Although if that happened, this morning we might be discussing the 2-3-4 players who are newly transferring.
I'm guessing we'll lose a guy or two this offseason, even without added punishments. It could be a bad coincidence, but Wojo has lost key guys between seasons a little too regularly for my liking. Given the projected roster for next year, I can see Greg or Jamal wanting to leave for greener pastures. I could even see Theo jumping ship with Morrow being projected to get a lot of minutes. I hope the potential to be a very good team keeps guys around, but I'm not holding my breath.
Quote from: #bansultan on February 01, 2018, 08:27:50 AM
And if Markus or Rowsey drive, you collapse on them because they are so small.
It's not because they're small it's because they don't pass to anybody...ever.
For all the bellyaching we seem to do when one of our guards finds himself on the floor desperately listening for a whistle, these guys could drop the ball off to a teammate for a layup or dunk.
Quote from: #bansultan on February 01, 2018, 08:27:50 AM
BE teams have figured MU out. Never give help on the inside. Ever. Because NO ONE can score down there with any consistency. Sure teams will live with the occasional Sacar drive or the Sam turn around. But you don't give up the three. And if Markus or Rowsey drive, you collapse on them because they are so small.
Literally NO ONE outside Sacar can take it to the basket with any authority. Jamal and Elliott are not bulky enough. The other guards are midgets. Everyone else is too slow. And even Sacar has vast limitations.
We've gone from teams obsessed with paint touches but who can't shoot, to teams who only can shoot but whose best interior option is a pu$$y a$$ floater from a 5'11" guard.
That was the most disappointing loss of the Wojo era and really does give me all sorts of concerns about the future regardless of who is showing up next year.
The answer to this, IMO, is getting Harry heavily involved in the offense early. Feed the guy and let him put it 10-12 points by the 2nd media timeout. Hopefully that'll open things up.
Jamil
I'll stick with my taking Rick's SLU program at the moment. One year later and not much improvement.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on February 01, 2018, 09:24:27 AM
The answer to this, IMO, is getting Harry heavily involved in the offense early. Feed the guy and let him put it 10-12 points by the 2nd media timeout. Hopefully that'll open things up.
Of course he'd have 10-12 points and 5 fouls. And the man he's "guarding" would have 20 points.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on February 01, 2018, 08:49:01 AM
It's not because they're small it's because they don't pass to anybody...ever.
I beg to differ. Rowsey had several nice passes last night...to the guy in the second row.
IN all seriousness, our guards seem to have no confidence in our bigs finishing. Our bigs just dont have a feel for the game. they are too mechanical.
To your point, research the play where Howard got hurt. He should.have.passed it to a cutting Sacar before the.injury
Quote from: skianth16 on February 01, 2018, 08:42:18 AM
I can see Greg or Jamal wanting to leave for greener pastures.
Uhhhh, simply a silly statement. Both are getting a ton of run and are solid contributors as frosh for a top 50 team. You think they're gong to jump to different, better team? Oh boy, talk about overreaction.
I've been trying my hardest to refrain from posting this season. Haven't overreacted after losses and haven't gotten too high after wins....BUT last night was bad. Really bad. And a terrible sign. Last night's game was arguably a must win game and that's how Marquette and Wojo come out and perform. Embarrassing. Terrible. everything you can think of. An absolute beatdown at home. a major letdown.
You guys can defend Wojo all you want. but this is his fourth season at the helm. That's a long time in college hoops. Mediocrity is what we're getting again. It's getting old and frustrating. I understand that he's not going to get fired and that NEXT YEAR we should be better (hopefully?) but just the fact that in year 4 we're talking about next year is kind of pathetic and sad.
VT has turned it around. Wojo is clueless.
Quote from: cheese ball chaser on January 31, 2018, 10:45:17 PM
Also, Buzz took all of his recruits with him and left us with a dumpster fire. His team *should* be better than us. There's plenty of basketball left to be played before the tournament.
Fake News. Buzz took Ahmed Hill (good player) and Satchel Pierce (stumblebum who transferred from VT). Mariol Shayok went to Virginia, Sandy Cohen stuck with Marquette.
And it's really irrelevant now what VT is doing. Not sure why it keeps getting brought up. Buzz left on his own.
Quote from: TSmith34 on February 01, 2018, 09:39:35 AM
Uhhhh, simply a silly statement. Both are getting a ton of run and are solid contributors as frosh for a top 50 team. You think they're gong to jump to different, better team? Oh boy, talk about overreaction.
I think they might bolt exactly because they're getting a ton of minutes now. When Joey and Bailey get added into the mix, and we increase the minutes for our bigs with Morrow coming on board, I expect one, if not both, of them to end up with fewer minutes than they're getting this year. Throw in a transfer PG, which seems like a real possibility, and the allocation of minutes gets tough for Greg and Jamal. That kind of reduced PT can create issues in the locker room.
My West Bend silver lining is that I probably only have to listen to all of the guys coming out of the woodwork with pitchforks until Saturday. If we lose then in a similar fashion, I will join them.
Look, last night was embarrassing. You'll have to tell me how embarrassing, because I turned it off at halftime. But we knew coming into this year that this wasn't "our year". Now, we're an exciting team to watch, with all the peaks and valleys that brings, and we still have everything in front of us. But this year is all about just getting better for what, hopefully, is a special couple of years coming up.
All of this being said: It feels weird to say, but I think Wojo needs to bring in a coach that is focused exclusively on defense. We know we'll get better by subtraction of Rowsey (can we get worse???), but even with him, our current output is still unacceptable. Even replacement level defense would mean we'd be guaranteed to be dancing.
Quote from: Goose on February 01, 2018, 09:33:58 AM
Jamil
I'll stick with my taking Rick's SLU program at the moment. One year later and not much improvement.
Good for you.
Wojo knows defense! For chrissakes he was a defensive player of the year!
Guys have to want to play defense. Howard and Rowsey do not.
I actually think we miss Traci Carter.
Quote from: NickelDimer on February 01, 2018, 08:14:52 AM
The fact that the jury is still very much out on just how good of a coach Wojo is is very alarming
The jury is still out on every coach other than maybe a dozen of the top coaches....and even their fans think the jury is still out on them.
Right now, the UNC fanbase is ticked at Roy, the Kentucky fanbase is frustrated with this year's team and pondering whether Calipari's one and done philosophy is the best long term idea, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa fanbases are ticked at their coach, MSU is reeling and split between seeing Izzo as the problem or solution. UConn, oy. There is not an abundance of ready made, guaranteed successful coaches out there just waiting there opportunity to come to Marquette.
Any coaching decision, be it fire and start over or stay the course, is a crapshoot.
Howard and Rowsey need some bench time until they learn that defense is as important as offense. There is no way that Howard gets beaten off the dribble as easily as he does. I would make it a contest between Rowsey and Howard on defensive intensity, technique and effort at practice and winner gets the start. The other subs in whenever. A message needs to be sent about the importance of defense.
Elliott and Anim should be seeing more time and being rewarded for their defensive effort.
Quote from: mufanatic on February 01, 2018, 11:25:19 AM
I would make it a contest between Rowsey and Howard on defensive intensity, technique and effort at practice and winner gets the start a free cone from the ice cream truck.
Fixed it for you.
Quote from: mufanatic on February 01, 2018, 11:25:19 AM
Howard and Rowsey need some bench time until they learn that defense is as important as offense. There is no way that Howard gets beaten off the dribble as easily as he does. I would make it a contest between Rowsey and Howard on defensive intensity, technique and effort at practice and winner gets the start. The other subs in whenever. A message needs to be sent about the importance of defense.
Elliott and Anim should be seeing more time and being rewarded for their defensive effort.
It isn't that simple. Bench one of the two leading scorers in the Big East. And bring back Derrick!
Quote from: tower912 on February 01, 2018, 11:28:37 AM
It isn't that simple. Bench one of the two leading scorers in the Big East. And bring back Derrick!
You have to send a message that defense is a priority not a way to get the ball back quickly in your hands to chuck up another shot. Effort and technique are lacking from the both of them. Trust me, some pine time will light a fire to get the intensity back up where it needs to be.
Quote from: mufanatic on February 01, 2018, 11:41:01 AM
You have to send a message that defense is a priority not a way to get the ball back quickly in your hands to chuck up another shot. Effort and technique are lacking from the both of them. Trust me, some pine time will light a fire to get the intensity back up where it needs to be.
That message should have been sent in the off-season or in non-con play. Deciding 20 games in that you're going to start sending a message about defense when it's been clear that defense is not a priority is a bad move. Rewarding defensive effort in practice and/or running guys who slack on D is one thing, but I don't like the idea of benching guys due to a change in focus this far into the season.
Quote from: skianth16 on February 01, 2018, 11:44:14 AM
That message should have been sent in the off-season or in non-con play. Deciding 20 games in that you're going to start sending a message about defense when it's been clear that defense is not a priority is a bad move. Rewarding defensive effort in practice and/or running guys who slack on D is one thing, but I don't like the idea of benching guys due to a change in focus this far into the season.
I could've sworn Howard was benched at the end of the Nova game, but I thought it was a shot selection thing.
Last night sucked. It was probably the worst I've felt at a game for the past 3 years. That said, I'm going to look at it as more of an outlier than a sign of things to come. If we lay another egg against PC Saturday, then yeah the season is pretty much over and there should be some real concern.
Right now, we have a pretty clear path to the NCAA tournament here. Beat PC this Saturday. Win @ SJU. Even if we lose @ SH and @ Creighton which seems likely, we head into the final 4 games at 6-8. We'll be favored in each of the final 4 games. Win 3 and we have a shot. Win 4 and we're in.
The bubble is weak, as always. Look at the teams surrounding us in Lunardi's bracketology.
Just ahead of us? Providence, who we have a chance to jump this weekend. Texas AM, 3-6 in the SEC.
Just behind us? SMU, NC State, Boise State, Virginia Tech. None of those teams inspire confidence.
The first 8 out? Missouri, Georgia, Western Kentucky, Washington, Syracuse, UCLA, Utah, Nebraska. All have major flaws in their resume.
Some of these teams have to make the dance. None of them are impressive. In a year where we thought we'd take a small step back, we're right where everyone thought we would be. We knew the schedule was frontloaded. We knew the easy games were at the end and we'd likely have to make a run to make the tournament.
Last night was depressing. But I'd bet even the posters who had us at 9-9 or 10-8 in their preseason predictions would have us around 4-6 through ten games. Lots of time to steady our resume and earn a bid.
I believe the last time we saw a Bradley Center beat down was in 2005 to UAB or Memphis.
Quote from: Mr. Nielsen on February 01, 2018, 12:36:48 PM
I believe the last time we saw a Bradley Center beat down was in 2005 to UAB or Memphis.
Vandy in 2011? Iowa in 2015?
Nights like last night just make me want to cuddle up with the Seton Hall postgame thread and pretend everything is gonna be ok!
Amazing how we can play at such a high level against a ranked opponent a few weeks ago and destroy them, then look like this.
FWIW Butler is a decent team, if that means anything. Makes me wonder if I'd rather get beat by 20 at home to them or beat with a buzzer beater at home by DePaul like a few years ago. I would hope most would say the former.
Quote from: MUeagle1090 on February 01, 2018, 12:39:50 PM
Vandy in 2011? Iowa in 2015?
Yep. It's been all of two seasons since a 20+ loss at home.
In 2015-16, we lost at home to Iowa by 28 and Seton Hall by 20.
In 2014-15, we lost at home to X by 20.
Last night was ugly, but nights like that happen....
Quote from: MUeagle1090 on February 01, 2018, 12:39:50 PM
Vandy in 2011? Iowa in 2015?
Vandy was bad, yet they made a tiny run. I forgot Iowa was 20+ point beatdown. Yet, Marquette did make a run to start the 2nd half in that as well.
Last night, it was a shocking 15 halftime hole. Yet, it got worse.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on February 01, 2018, 10:14:23 AM
Wojo knows defense! For chrissakes he was a defensive player of the year!
Guys have to want to play defense. Howard and Rowsey do not.
I actually think we miss Traci Carter.
Agree. The one junk yard dog Wojo had landed - though Theo, Cain and Greg all have what it takes.
Sad thing is if the staff could have talked Traci into staying, but to redshirt THIS year, and come back next as the starting PG as a Junior, with Markus at the 2.
Traci will be great at LaSalle. Saw the floor brilliantly and made everybody around him better - not to mention he had a lot of ability defensively.
Quote from: Goose on February 01, 2018, 09:33:58 AM
Jamil
I'll stick with my taking Rick's SLU program at the moment. One year later and not much improvement.
Just stop
Win matta, hey?
onepostwarrior
Stop what?
Quote from: WayOfTheWarrior on February 01, 2018, 12:53:17 PMFWIW Butler is a decent team, if that means anything. Makes me wonder if I'd rather get beat by 20 at home to them or beat with a buzzer beater at home by DePaul like a few years ago. I would hope most would say the former.
Butler has a better Pomeroy than Seton Hall. Its 22 to 30. I think your expectations just didn't match the reality is all.
1. I absolutely agree that this game was absolute, complete and total suckage. Rowsey with 0 points? 11 Assists/21 TO's? Just brutal.
2. I missed the Xavier game (vacation, baby!). From the score, it didn't look great.
3. I watched the Villanova game. I thought they played well, especially the bench. The 3 point loss was disappointing, because you can always think of a foul not called or a barely-missed basket (or 6) that could have changed the course of the day. But I didn't see many come on scoop and say the team was trash.
4. They had a stinker of a game against Butler. That's exactly what is was. It happens sometimes. I don't believe that loss defines this team or this season. At the beginning of the season, we said, "We'll lose some we should win, and win some we shouldn't. The losses I can think of that we should've won were Xavier (home), Butler (home) and possibly Villanova (home) - except that they are the #1 team in the country, so it's arguable that we shouldn't have won that one (and we didn't) . We won that Providence away game that, during the game, we had no business winning. Yet most will say we should've won "because it's Providence." Screw That! No Big East win is assured on the opponent's floor.
5. Of our 9 season losses, 6 of them came to teams that are currently (or were at the time) in the top 10.
6. As the announcers noted last night (one of the smarter things) that the toughest part of our schedule is behind us. Not that we can be complacent - (see the last sentence in 4) - but 4 of them are against the three teams below us in the standings and 5 of them are in the bottom half of the BEast. Win those. Take one from Creighton, or another one from Seton Hall, and we dance.
7. I might change my mind after the Providence game, but this season isn't done by a long shot.
Everybody seems to think that this team will get W's at GT & St. John's, apparently just because they are currently below us. Just a year ago today, MU got undressed by the Johnnies at MSG. I don't think we should be counting our chickens before we got eggs.
I hate to say this but the Johnnies will be a load in New York. Again, tough shooting guard that will take the midgets to the hoop. Very athletic, but very lets say
stupid at times with the ball, reason there are 0-11. They almost beat X this week. Gtown never know, DePaul there should be a victory. 4-2 is what I see, bubble
team, will have to do something in New York.
Quote from: tower912 on February 01, 2018, 11:28:37 AM
It isn't that simple. Bench one of the two leading scorers in the Big East. And bring back Derrick!
Excellent reminder. How quick we are to forget the endless pages bemoaning a point guard that was practically useless in modern basketball because he couldn't score.
Quote from: Goose on February 01, 2018, 01:28:40 PM
onepostwarrior
Stop what?
It's one bad game from a young, flawed team. To think the Jordair Jett-led SLU team and that program 5 years ago is better off than we are now is ridiculous.
We're gonna be just fine.
Quote from: tower912 on February 01, 2018, 11:28:37 AM
It isn't that simple. Bench one of the two leading scorers in the Big East. And bring back Derrick!
He was much maligned, but a guy like Derrick could help this team a lot. We needed scorers (and shooters) when he was here, but right now we need a guy with a solid handle who can get the ball to guys like Howard/Rowsey/Hauser on one end, and play good defense on the other.
It isn't just getting the best players...it's getting the right combination of players.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on January 31, 2018, 10:19:25 PM
In year four of the Wojo era, never would I have thought that Virginia Tech would be in a better position from a program standpoint. They are once again looking like a solid tournament team. We are currently on the outside looking in. Crazy.
All the more reason that Wojo's ass needs to feel the heat. Some still think he is the man. His track record here is marginal. Now in about 7th lace in BEast.
If we were going to bring back a "non scoring" point guard, could it be Tony.Miller? He would lead the.nation in assists
Quote from: cheese ball chaser on January 31, 2018, 10:41:43 PM
Young Butler team? They played 2 seniors and a junior
What difference does that make. hey kicked our ass with a former UWM coach in his first year. Wojo is in his 4th. All his guys. The excuses need to stop.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on January 31, 2018, 11:25:31 PM
Brian Wardle's Bradley team beat #1 MVC Loyola tonight at home to improve to 17-7. Only good news for Marquette Basketball tonight.
Yeah, Wardle. he was not qualified last time, according to some here. We have Wojo who is the man. He can recruit, just can't coach defense, motivate players, except by "Win every day"
Quote from: NotAnAlum on January 31, 2018, 11:05:28 PM
I was really impressed with the way Butler played defense. It shows what happens when a team plays as a team. When a Butler guys is defending his man he funnels him towards his teammate so the MU guy ends up driving into a double team without the 2nd guy having to give up his man. Its all team defense. On offense they move without the ball so they get into position for offensive rebounds or drop off. MU guys simply stand around if the play isn't being run for them.
I was concerned when Wojo got here that his success at Duke was based on managing Super talent much more than insisting on team play and coaching schemes that hide weakness and make lesser players better. I'm afraid that is what we're seeing. MU simply doesn't play as a team and it shows up the most on defense because that is where team play is most important. Butler does it MU doesn't and otherwise the teams are pretty evenly match as far as experience and talent level.
Butler owns Wojo.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 01, 2018, 06:05:33 PM
What difference does that make. hey kicked our ass with a former UWM coach in his first year. Wojo is in his 4th. All his guys. The excuses need to stop.
Again, as I mentioned above, it's not an excuse. I was merely refuting that Butler is a young team. Has nothing to do with MU.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 01, 2018, 05:19:21 PM
He was much maligned, but a guy like Derrick could help this team a lot. We needed scorers (and shooters) when he was here, but right now we need a guy with a solid handle who can get the ball to guys like Howard/Rowsey/Hauser on one end, and play good defense on the other.
It isn't just getting the best players...it's getting the right combination of players.
Teal?
Mentioning Derrick was hyperbole. However, Junior would tear it up on this team. Tony Miller would average double digit assists. Dominic James would be able to defend even at 5'9 and get to the rack with impunity with all of these shooter spread out.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 01, 2018, 06:33:27 PM
Teal?
Did you see the defense last night? No teal.
Yeah, I'd rather have Tony Miller or Junior Cadougan than Derrick. But when you see the defense we're playing right now, I'd also take Derrick back.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 01, 2018, 01:10:25 PM
Agree. The one junk yard dog Wojo had landed - though Theo, Cain and Greg all have what it takes.
Sad thing is if the staff could have talked Traci into staying, but to redshirt THIS year, and come back next as the starting PG as a Junior, with Markus at the 2.
Traci will be great at LaSalle.Saw the floor brilliantly and made everybody around him better - not to mention he had a lot of ability defensively.
I agree with this analysis.
Wow ... this thread has taken some turns.
Bring back Derrick ... We're still not as good as Saint Looie U ... joyless willie pining for Coach Wardle ... Traci Carter as the second coming of, who? Magic Dawson? ... Al Davis makes his return to torch the joynt ...
Adversity sure brings out the best of Scoop!
(https://media.tenor.co/images/f7603034228b095f666269150888064f/raw)
Quote from: NickelDimer on February 01, 2018, 08:31:46 AM
Maybe it's Wojo who should be running midnight sprints?
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/1f2553b05c72a2a9bfe9beb8348f7108/tenor.gif?itemid=5336809)
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 01, 2018, 05:19:21 PM
He was much maligned, but a guy like Derrick could help this team a lot. We needed scorers (and shooters) when he was here, but right now we need a guy with a solid handle who can get the ball to guys like Howard/Rowsey/Hauser on one end, and play good defense on the other.
It isn't just getting the best players...it's getting the right combination of players.
IDK about about. Do you not remember DWil frustratingly picking up his dribble eight feet in front of the 3pt line?