Went to the game and listened to Wojo interview on the way home. He seemed to have an issue with fouls called on Markus versus fouls he draws when going to the basket and getting contacted. Said something along the lines of wanting to help put him in a better position to get those calls so he can get to the line more often.
Can anyone shed some light on fouls committed versus fouls drawn for Markus, compared to other notable guards/scorers? It does seem like he gets knocked down a lot when driving to the basket with no whistle. Brunson seems to have a knack for drawing contact and getting calls in a way that M2N doesn't, as seen today.
Just wondering what the consensus is on Wojo's theory and what adjustments could be made, if any.
Quote from: WayOfTheWarrior on January 28, 2018, 11:55:21 PM
Went to the game and listened to Wojo interview on the way home. He seemed to have an issue with fouls called on Markus versus fouls he draws when going to the basket and getting contacted. Said something along the lines of wanting to help put him in a better position to get those calls so he can get to the line more often.
Can anyone shed some light on fouls committed versus fouls drawn for Markus, compared to other notable guards/scorers? It does seem like he gets knocked down a lot when driving to the basket with no whistle. Brunson seems to have a knack for drawing contact and getting calls in a way that M2N doesn't, as seen today.
Just wondering what the consensus is on Wojo's theory and what adjustments could be made, if any.
Brunson does a great job of creating contact with a defender on his way to the basket and is strong/in control enough to finish the shot. Markus tries to avoid contact and usually falls down not because he is fouled, but because he contorted his body so much to avoid getting hit or is just off balance.
Markus needs to figure out how to create contact and finish through it. If he does so he might start getting some calls, but refs aren't going to call anything when he's so obviously trying not to get hit.
Brunson is 3 inches taller and 20 lbs heavier. And older. Did anyone mention that Markus is only 18? But yes, Markus tries to avoid contact on offense. And seemingly can't get out of the way on defense.
Markus isn't the only one. I swear we never get fouls on 1:1 fast break layups. They usually aren't missed calls, our guys are bad at creating contact.
Markus and Rowsey definitely get fouled more than gets called when they drive the hoop, but as others have said, its not their strong suit.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 29, 2018, 09:14:25 AM
Markus isn't the only one. I swear we never get fouls on 1:1 fast break layups. They usually aren't missed calls, our guys are bad at creating contact.
Have to be able to take contact if you're gonna create it. Not many of our guys can finish through it.
Good comments on drawing contact.
Brunson has become very good at this. His back-down game reminds me a bit of Mark Jackson.
Expanding this topic a little to PG play in general ...
When AR goes to the hoop, he is thinking "me score" about 75-80% and "maybe pass it out" 20-25%.
When Markus goes to the hoop, he is thinking "me score" about 99.9%.
With Rowsey, you have a chance for a kick-out. With Howard, either he scores or he misses.
I LOVE score-first PGs (and so does the NBA), but even a score-first PG has to be willing to drive and kick (especially in the NBA). One of my concerns for next year is that Markus either isn't wired that way or simply doesn't want to think that way (or both). I also believe that could hurt his chances to get a serious NBA look - though that is a distant secondary concern of most MU fans.
Maybe Elliott has more of a drive-and-kick mentality, and when both hands are fully healed next season we'll see it. Or maybe Wojo will bring in a grad transfer PG who can set others up.
Is it possible the contact we get on drives is embellished too much to get a call? Some guys have made falling down a part of their three point stroke to try and get calls. I wonder if Rowsey and Howard are overselling contact and not getting calls.
FG% at the rim:
Theo: 64.4%
Harry: 76.5%
Sam: 76.5%
Matt: 69.7%
Sacar: 67.7%
Greg: 57.1%
Markus: 56.5%
Jamal: 53.8%
Andrew: 41.9%
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 29, 2018, 09:26:56 AM
FG% at the rim:
Theo: 80.0%
Harry: 76.5%
Sam: 76.5%
Matt: 69.7%
Sacar: 67.7%
Greg: 57.1%
Markus: 56.5%
Jamal: 53.8%
Andrew: 41.9%
Theo is that high? WOW thought hed be lower with his lack of finishing moves
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 29, 2018, 09:26:56 AM
FG% at the rim:
Theo: 80.0%
Harry: 76.5%
Sam: 76.5%
Matt: 69.7%
Sacar: 67.7%
Greg: 57.1%
Markus: 56.5%
Jamal: 53.8%
Andrew: 41.9%
Surprised Sacar is that high. Yesterday helped.
Another thing re: Markus. That floater is such a deadly weapon but it is predicated on avoiding contacting. Knowing that's his go to, I think he could actually be really good at drawing contact if he can develop a good head fake when driving. Basically #thething but with floaters instead of threes. Fake like you are going to shoot a floater and then hit the defender when they are up in the air. And as other's have said, work on that drive and kick game. The more he can keep opponents guessing what he's going to do in the lane, the more effective he will be.
Anyone able to dig up some stats on fouls drawn while driving to the basket compared to personal fouls committed for PGs in conference? In country? Kinda interested how that shakes down.
On a separate note involving generated contact, would be interested in how many moving screen calls we have racked up compared to others.
Quote from: WayOfTheWarrior on January 29, 2018, 09:40:05 AM
Anyone able to dig up some stats on fouls drawn while driving to the basket compared to personal fouls committed for PGs in conference? In country? Kinda interested how that shakes down.
On a separate note involving generated contact, would be interested in how many moving screen calls we have racked up compared to others.
I'd be curious to see moving screen numbers as season has progressed. My eye test tells me it has been much less of a problem for us in recent weeks. The Froling call yesterday was quite bad, though.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on January 29, 2018, 09:30:05 AM
Surprised Sacar is that high. Yesterday helped.
If folks get jazzed by stats...see HoopMath...there is a paywall beyond the free content, but may not be worth it to most as they give a lot of stats off the play by play data. They differentiate "at the rim" versus other 2Pt Fg%. I think the difference on Sacar, Theo et al that people remember is explained in the stats as they are moved away from the rim. Markus, on the other hand, hits a higher percent with his floaters than at the rim...which may drive Wojo's angst on the lack of fouls called on his guards.
https://hoop-math.com/Marquette2018.php
Quote from: Clam Crowder on January 29, 2018, 09:29:25 AM
Theo is that high? WOW thought hed be lower with his lack of finishing moves
Sorry...64.4% fg%, with 80% of his shots at the rim. <need reading glasses>
Marcus needs to learn how to get fouled. He nearly always ends up on his a$$ when he drives, but rarely is there enough contact to call a foul. He needs a head fake, change of speed, up fake, or something to create the foul, and then finish after the foul. Easier said than done, of course, but it's an important skill. Brunson is a good example.
Jordan is very good at not fouling and at getting fouled. Always has been though. Still, I think we'll see marked improvement before M2N is M2N
Markus made a couple nice passes yesterday. He found Harry on the pick and roll for a lay up and passed to Cain in transition that lead to an and 1.
Markus also started out shooting well. I reviewed the play by play and had Markus at 5-10 FG, 3-5 on 3FG in the first 13 minutes. It was all down hill from there. I thought Markus stopped trusting his instincts and started forcing it in the 2nd half. Hope he bounces back Wednesday.
Is there really an argument trying to be made that if a guy gets hit/fouled, it should only be called if the driver initiates the contact or finishes through the contact? And if a guy driving is trying to avoid contact, but gets fouled anyway, it shouldn't be called?
A foul is a foul is a foul.
I think it was about the 6-7 game of the year before I realized Sacar and Greg could attempt layups without ending up on their behind, sliding into the middle of the cheerleaders halfway to the sideline. Well, maybe that is part of a different plan...
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 29, 2018, 12:02:25 PM
Is there really an argument trying to be made that if a guy gets hit/fouled, it should only be called if the driver initiates the contact or finishes through the contact? And if a guy driving is trying to avoid contact, but gets fouled anyway, it shouldn't be called?
A foul is a foul is a foul.
No. The argument is that the vast majority of the time that Markus lands on his butt he is not fouled. Also, refs are not going to give him the benefit of the doubt when he's obviously trying to avoid contact.
As Jimmy Butler. He was and still is good at drawing fouls.
Is this an example for the posters that think "he tries to avoid contact, so when contact happens, the refs shouldn't call a foul"?
https://twitter.com/PaintTouches/status/958063322305368064
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 29, 2018, 06:38:32 PM
Is this an example for the posters that think "he tries to avoid contact, so when contact happens, the refs shouldn't call a foul"?
https://twitter.com/PaintTouches/status/958063322305368064
Pretty much.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 29, 2018, 06:38:32 PM
Is this an example for the posters that think "he tries to avoid contact, so when contact happens, the refs shouldn't call a foul"?
https://twitter.com/PaintTouches/status/958063322305368064
Yes, that's not a clear foul. His forward momentum is carrying him away from the contact. If he had gone up more vertically it definitely would have a greater chance of being called a foul. It also would have a greater chance of being blocked, so I understand what he's thinking.
The 2nd video at that link isn't a foul either. He's pretty much out of control and tries to shoot a weak reverse layup from behind the backboard. Refs are not going to bail him out on that without clear contact, which there wasn't.
He needs to jump into the defender (like Brunson does) rather than try to get past him every time. All it takes a slight advantage/path to the basket, then jump into the defender. He will get more calls that way.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 29, 2018, 07:45:19 PM
Yes, that's not a clear foul. His forward momentum is carrying him away from the contact. If he had gone up more vertically it definitely would have a greater chance of being called a foul. It also would have a greater chance of being blocked, so I understand what he's thinking.
The 2nd video at that link isn't a foul either. He's pretty much out of control and tries to shoot a weak reverse layup from behind the backboard. Refs are not going to bail him out on that without clear contact, which there wasn't.
He needs to jump into the defender (like Brunson does) rather than try to get past him every time. All it takes a slight advantage/path to the basket, then jump into the defender. He will get more calls that way.
Agree, but his lack of size is the issue. Brunson is 4 or 5 inches taller and much thicker. Just what it is.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 29, 2018, 07:45:19 PM
Yes, that's not a clear foul. His forward momentum is carrying him away from the contact. If he had gone up more vertically it definitely would have a greater chance of being called a foul. It also would have a greater chance of being blocked, so I understand what he's thinking.
Bo used to teach the high body nudge. To me, this looked more like a foul on the floor by Donte on the reach.
Quote from: Nukem2 on January 29, 2018, 07:49:56 PM
Agree, but his lack of size is the issue. Brunson is 4 or 5 inches taller and much thicker. Just what it is.
I agree. Brunson is the example because he must have what I am describing 4 or five times in last night's game. He has a physical advantage for sure.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 29, 2018, 07:52:36 PM
Bo used to teach the high body nudge. To me, this looked more like a foul on the floor by Donte on the reach.
to be honest I didn't even notice that. I'll have to look at it again.
Edit: just looked at it again. Donte didn't come within a foot of him in the videos at that link??
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 29, 2018, 07:54:53 PM
to be honest I didn't even notice that. I'll have to look at it again.
Edit: just looked at it again. Donte didn't come within a foot of him in the videos at that link??
Looks to me he hits him high on the arm, above the elbow on the 2nd reel as he swats. Magruder?
In any regard, not much there. What's interesting is Nova all collapses on Markus once he blows by, all taking a swipe at him. Protect the paint.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 29, 2018, 06:38:32 PM
Is this an example for the posters that think "he tries to avoid contact, so when contact happens, the refs shouldn't call a foul"?
No one said that.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 29, 2018, 07:45:19 PM
Yes, that's not a clear foul. His forward momentum is carrying him away from the contact. If he had gone up more vertically it definitely would have a greater chance of being called a foul. It also would have a greater chance of being blocked, so I understand what he's thinking.
The 2nd video at that link isn't a foul either. He's pretty much out of control and tries to shoot a weak reverse layup from behind the backboard. Refs are not going to bail him out on that without clear contact, which there wasn't.
He needs to jump into the defender (like Brunson does) rather than try to get past him every time. All it takes a slight advantage/path to the basket, then jump into the defender. He will get more calls that way.
Defender with 2 hands on Howard's back as Howard is jumping. Defender extends his arms.
Maybe I just don't know what a foul is anymore.
To be fair to your view, if Howard jump-stops there, 1 or both of the defenders likely goes flying into/over him leading to a definite foul.