1. Froling miss turned the game.
2. I think that Cain should have been gotten more run tonight. Greg is a little too short to handle Martin on those switches. Butler did a great job of isolating Martin on the 6'3 frosh. Good coaching.
3. If not Cain, more Anim. Taller, broader.
4. Sam was awfully good tonight. He, too, did a really nice job when he got the smaller defender on the switch.
5. 1-3-1? OK. Had to try something.
6. The defense on the road just wasn't enough. Bad interior defense. Allowed Martin to exploit the smaller freshman. Perhaps the defense against SH was the aberration.
7. Butler ran more high pick and roll. MU still hasn't solved that riddle.
8. How many times did they point out that MU is the youngest team in the league? I remember posting something like that.
9. Sometimes, the good home team finds another gear, takes advantage of a small mistake, and turns everything around.
10. On to Monday.
Really surprised by the amount of time Greg spent on Martin. I know Anim isn't our best offensive threat, but I really think he would have been able to do more to slow Martin down. Giving up 90+ is just painful.
More sacar? Why.....
He's a liability at the free throw line. Jamal should have had sacars minutes
I would've taken 1-1 coming into the week, and I'm still good with it. This one stings though. Gotta get it done against DePaul next week. Always a must win.
Butler 28-38 in the paint or 73% for the game. Wonderful.
Wojo relies way too much on the bigs and all 3 killed us defensively while doing nothing offensively in the second half. Should have seen more Cain
My first thought about this game was that we needed more Cain. Baldwin was getting where he wanted at will and Martin was hitting everything. We needed more length and size to slow them down.
Similar note, I think John would have been the better option in the post than Harry. I think Harry was out there because he was the only one chasing down rebounds but his defense was bad and that missed bunny was a killer.
It was bad Rowsey tonight, but it was because Butler made him bad Rowsey. Really good on ball defense by their guards.
Maybe we should stop wishing for Hauser to take more shots. His two 30 point games were tonight and Eastern Illinois. His defense was worse than usual today however. Blew a couple of assignments that led to easy buckets.
Tonight was winnable, credit to Butler for their response after getting down 7. I think we get them in Milwaukee.
We knew Sam was capable of big games, so for me, the biggest plus tonight was Theo. He really made some nice moves and had several possessions where he looked much more poised and under control than in prior games. And he's got a midrange game he's been hiding? His upside continues to grow.
Jordan gameplanned the heck out of Wojo. Rowsey was awful. The refs were not good at all.
Very worried opposing coaches will start letting Rowsey try to find as many shots as he can and focus on keeping the ball out of Sam?s and Markus?s hands. That?s sure as hell what I?d be doing if I was gameplanning against Marquette.
Can?t wait till the youngest team excuse is over, this will be last year for that.
Martin was great and Baldwin just abused Markus, Heldt was horrible.
Said in thread Rowsey needed an ambie, make that two. He was wired tonight.
What a run by MU after making stops. Got to 7 and thought awesome.....but
Ineterior defense gave up so many layups, dunks, etc, that was the game. Analyst said many times MU needs to do something different. Guess went to 1-3-1, but didn?t make difference.
Can one of the stat gurus post Butlers paint points and percentage please. Ok, 28 for 38 and 73%. You?ll lose every game with that.
Last note, Cain made an outstanding block and announcers said nothing, give the kid credit I say.
I don't think Harry's missed bunny "turned the game," but I have to admit, I haven't seen anything to indicate that he is a high major player. I'm hoping to feel better about him by the end of the year.
Quote from: nyg on January 12, 2018, 07:34:50 PM
Can?t wait till the youngest team excuse is over, this will be last year for that.
Martin was great and Baldwin just abused Markus, Heldt was horrible.
Said in thread Rowsey needed an ambie, make that two. He was wired tonight.
What a run by MU after making stops. Got to 7 and thought awesome.....but
Ineterior defense gave up so many layups, dunks, etc, that was the game. Analyst said many times MU needs to do something different. Guess went to 1-3-1, but didn?t make difference.
Can one of the stat gurus post Butlers paint points and percentage please. Ok, 28 for 38 and 73%. You?ll lose every game with that.
Last note, Cain made an outstanding block and announcers said nothing, give the kid credit I say.
Our guards cannot keep people out of the lane. Look at what Butler's guards did defensively and compare that to Marquette's.
?LaVall outcoached Wojo tonight.
?the hedging screen 35? didn?t work. Even switching with Heldt on shooters and MH and AR down low was more effective.
?Harry isn?t enough of a player, perhaps yet, to make the positive impact in a BEast road game needed for that win.
?When does Kelan graduate?
?Butler is not overrated. I don?t know why people keep saying that. Solid team. Not rated high at all and can win big games.
?Sacar.....always long on his FT misses.
?Rowsey sealed our fate late.
?Theo coming along.
Quote from: #bansultan on January 12, 2018, 07:35:49 PM
I don't think Harry's missed bunny "turned the game," but I have to admit, I haven't seen anything to indicate that he is a high major player. I'm hoping to feel better about him by the end of the year.
He?s still at 30% on field goal and 1 for 12 on threes (.083%).
That layup miss was huge, changed momentum big time. If he has slammed it, like analysts said, MU players would have been pumped up, ready to continue, not looking at each other going, WTF....
Quote from: WE R FINAL FOUR on January 12, 2018, 07:41:35 PM
?LaVall outcoached Wojo tonight.
?the hedging screen 35? didn?t work. Even switching with Heldt on shooters and MH and AR down low was more effective.
?Harry isn?t enough of a player, perhaps yet, to make the positive impact in a BEast road game needed for that win.
?When does Kelan graduate?
?Butler is not overrated. I don?t know why people keep saying that. Solid team. Not rated high at all and can win big games.
?Sacar.....always long on his FT misses.
?Rowsey sealed our fate late.
?Theo coming along.
Actually, Sacar?s FTs are all over the place. Every one looks different. Also, he needs to learn how to finish. Way too many easy misses. Needs to get some air under his shots.
Quote from: Nukem2 on January 12, 2018, 07:45:24 PM
Actually, Sacar?s FTs are all over the place. Every one looks different. Also, he needs to learn how to finish. Way too many easy misses. Needs to get some air under his shots.
Sacar is a great athlete who happens to play basketball. He's got to improve some of his fundamentals, and then he could really get his game to the next level. I'm hoping he can improve his shooting between seasons, or he may have trouble earning minutes next year.
Things didn't work out as planned tonight. We had them where we wanted then but couldn't extend the lead enough. That is why winning on the road is hard. Kudos to Butler for a well played and well coached game. They earned the win tonight.
I still am confident about our season. We are in a tough conference and can compete with anyone.
This is going to sound crazy but I see it with Harry. It's like Vander freshman year. Yeah he can't finish but he can get there. The finishing will come. He knows how to get the ball to the basket. I really think he's inches from greatness. D is another story but we knew that gong in just by reading between the lines.
I'm turning around on Wojo and I'm seeing it come together. The pieces are there.
Rowsey, no comment.
Onto Monday. Martin wasn't losing a 4th straight.
Marquette is Butler's biatch, plain and simple. Butler has won 10 of the past 13.
Ha .. wanted to check our other owner: Louisville. They won 11 of the last 14.
Kryptonite.
The day will come when MU is the larger, more experienced team.
Quote from: The Lens on January 12, 2018, 08:23:09 PM
This is going to sound crazy but I see it with Harry. It's like Vander freshman year. Yeah he can't finish but he can get there. The finishing will come. He knows how to get the ball to the basket. I really think he's inches from greatness. D is another story but we knew that gong in just by reading between the lines.
Vander could at least defend. Harry? Well...
Quote from: The Lens on January 12, 2018, 08:23:09 PM
This is going to sound crazy but I see it with Harry. It's like Vander freshman year. Yeah he can't finish but he can get there. The finishing will come. He knows how to get the ball to the basket. I really think he's inches from greatness. D is another story but we knew that gong in just by reading between the lines.
I'm turning around on Wojo and I'm seeing it come together. The pieces are there.
Rowsey, no comment.
If you're willing to give Harry the benefit of the doubt, even when he doesn't play well, why not do the same with Rowset, who has proven himself time and again the last season and a half? We can't get too spoiled expecting 30 a game and getting upset when he's not superman.
Quote from: skianth16 on January 12, 2018, 07:48:31 PM
Sacar is a great athlete who happens to play basketball. He's got to improve some of his fundamentals. I'm hoping he can improve his shooting between seasons.
Agree. I know some on this board still think he should jack 3s when open but I'm relieved that Wojo has apparently put the kibosh on that idea.
Watching Frolling jack 3s is also frustrating. 1-12 is bad enough but his form looks lousy and he rarely comes close on the shot.
Quote from: The Lens on January 12, 2018, 08:23:09 PM
This is going to sound crazy but I see it with Harry. It's like Vander freshman year. Yeah he can't finish but he can get there. The finishing will come. He knows how to get the ball to the basket. I really think he's inches from greatness. D is another story but we knew that gong in just by reading between the lines.
I'm turning around on Wojo and I'm seeing it come together. The pieces are there.
Rowsey, no comment.
Inches from greatness?......inches from greatness???
I must say you do sound crazy.
We need to keep teams in the 70s to win in the big east. Old D was back unfortunately.
136.6 defensive rating...dropping MU to a rank of #174 nationally. Worst statistically defensive game of the year. MU forced only three Butler turnovers.
Offensive rating was 120.6, good enough to win. MU's offense improves to #6 nationally. Rowsey getting grief but he was a 110 with 5 assists and 3 turns but 0-5 from two. Sam with a wonderful 170.
Of all the Power 6 basketball schools, only California and Washington State have worse defenses. Brutal but the offense is fun to watch especially when they were on that run.
Quote from: The Lens on January 12, 2018, 08:23:09 PM
I really think he's inches from greatness.
Agree. If he was 8 or 10 inches taller (7'6" - 7'8") he'd be a stud offensively.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 12, 2018, 08:33:01 PM
Agree. I know some on this board still think he should jack 3s when open but I'm relieved that Wojo has apparently put the kibosh on that idea.
Watching Frolling jack 3s is also frustrating. 1-12 is bad enough but his form looks lousy and he rarely comes close on the shot.
FWIW, I no longer believe in my initial assessment that Sacar can hit threes.
Quote from: #bansultan on January 12, 2018, 08:46:01 PM
FWIW, I no longer believe in my initial assessment that Sacar can hit threes.
He is having trouble with his drives/layups as well. Needs to get air under his shots, wherever they may come from. He gets his shots, but clang, clang, clang.... Soften up that shot with some air underneath.
Quote from: #bansultan on January 12, 2018, 07:37:26 PM
Our guards cannot keep people out of the lane. Look at what Butler's guards did defensively and compare that to Marquette's.
I get it, now can?t wait until worst matchup of the season with Howard/Rowsey vs Foster/Thomas.
So typical. All the naysayers out. Butler, in desperation mode and let by a stud Senior, beats MU and the world melts down. We're fine people. Get ready for Monday. Drink your drink and chill.
Quote from: jsglow on January 12, 2018, 08:59:31 PM
So typical. All the naysayers out. Butler, in desperation mode and let by a stud Senior, beats MU and the world melts down. We're fine people. Get ready for Monday. Drink your drink and chill.
+1
Butler beat Villanova by 8 in Hinkle and beat us by 11.
Butler scored 101 on Villanova and 94 on us.
If we lose to DePaul at home I will be concerned.
Too true. Conference road games are rough.
Kelan Martin and his old man game was just not going to lose tonight. I agree that Wojo should have given Cain more run, but I don?t think it would have changed anything.
Froling?s miss didn?t cost us the game in itself, but it certainly didn?t help. It?s weird, but I actually prefer having Theo on the floor: sets better screens and plays more within himself at the moment.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 12, 2018, 07:33:05 PM
Jordan gameplanned the heck out of Wojo. Rowsey was awful. The refs were not good at all.
Very worried opposing coaches will start letting Rowsey try to find as many shots as he can and focus on keeping the ball out of Sam?s and Markus?s hands. That?s sure as hell what I?d be doing if I was gameplanning against Marquette.
Give it a rest on the refs, bro. You're going to give yourself an aneurysm.
Quote from: yetipro on January 12, 2018, 09:45:53 PM
Give it a rest on the refs, bro. You're going to give yourself an aneurysm.
Definitely not one of the things I?m worried about.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 12, 2018, 10:03:24 PM
Definitely not one of the things I?m worried about.
The aneurysm? Or the refs? You spend an awful lot of time on here whining about referees being slanted against MU.
Quote from: yetipro on January 12, 2018, 10:12:39 PM
The aneurysm? Or the refs? You spend an awful lot of time on here whining about referees being slanted against MU.
The aneurysm. The refs were awful.
Quote from: jsglow on January 12, 2018, 08:59:31 PM
So typical. All the naysayers out. Butler, in desperation mode and let by a stud Senior, beats MU and the world melts down. We're fine people. Get ready for Monday. Drink your drink and chill.
right on Glow.
Quote from: Ellenson Guerrero on January 12, 2018, 09:45:10 PM
Kelan Martin and his old man game was just not going to lose tonight. I agree that Wojo should have given Cain more run, but I don?t think it would have changed anything.
Froling?s miss didn?t cost us the game in itself, but it certainly didn?t help. It?s weird, but I actually prefer having Theo on the floor: sets better screens and plays more within himself at the moment.
It's not weird in the slightest. Theo is better at basketball.
Agree, John seems to be more of a presence then Harry. Shoot, at least John goes for blocks, rebounds, and sets firm picks. I was all excited about Harry but am seeing another stiff so far. I don't know what the under hand dipsy do shot was. Take a dribble and go for a slam! Defensively, big as hell, just maul somebody . . . Once . . Please? You have 5 fouls. I find it hard to believe that our best shot we can get is a one pass left wing transition 3 from Harry that looks all awkward.
Rowsey is Rowsey. Guy has the green light to try and dribble between 3 guys and on fourth loses the ball. 3 guys ok to dribble around? I am hoping next year addition by subtraction occurs as i anticipate the ball moving better without Rowsey.
Sam again just shows how much he has expanded his game. I love watching him play. Can't wait for Joey's inside outside game!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 12, 2018, 08:45:29 PM
Agree. If he was 8 or 10 inches taller (7'6" - 7'8") he'd be a stud offensively.
Died.
Quote from: Nukem2 on January 12, 2018, 07:45:24 PM
Actually, Sacar?s FTs are all over the place. Every one looks different. Also, he needs to learn how to finish. Way too many easy misses. Needs to get some air under his shots.
Reminds one a lot like Faisal Abraham, or Abel Joseph.
Quote from: jsglow on January 12, 2018, 08:59:31 PM
So typical. All the naysayers out. Butler, in desperation mode and let by a stud Senior, beats MU and the world melts down. We're fine people. Get ready for Monday. Drink your drink and chill.
Sorry Dad!
What you?re seeing is a lot of ppl who thought we might have the corner and looking at 12-6, and after last night we realize it?s more fighting for 10-8 / 9-9.
Quote from: The Lens on January 13, 2018, 07:31:54 AM
Sorry Dad!
What you?re seeing is a lot of ppl who thought we might have the corner and looking at 12-6, and after last night we realize it?s more fighting for 10-8 / 9-9.
Anyone who thought we're suddenly looking at 12-6 after a great performance Tuesday jumped the gun.
While it was disappointing to see a 2nd half lead disappear in about a minute, Glow is right. We lost to a good team on the road in the Big East. It shouldn't be surprising.
We're a good but flawed team. Avoid bad losses, win one or hopefully two of the Creighton, Butler, and Nova home games and we should be dancing.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 12, 2018, 07:33:05 PM
Jordan gameplanned the heck out of Wojo. Rowsey was awful. The refs were not good at all.
Very worried opposing coaches will start letting Rowsey try to find as many shots as he can and focus on keeping the ball out of Sam?s and Markus?s hands. That?s sure as hell what I?d be doing if I was gameplanning against Marquette.
Not a great game, but I can count 5 times that Rowsey made a very good pass to a player in a good position, and they either turned it over, passed up an easy shot, or missed an easy shot.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on January 13, 2018, 08:20:24 AM
Not a great game, but I can count 5 times that Rowsey made a very good pass to a player in a good position, and they either turned it over, passed up an easy shot, or missed an easy shot.
I don't think Rowsey's non-shooting improvements this year, including his passing, have gotten the proper amount of recognition. He had 8 assists in the Seton Hall game, which was about 7 more than he averaged last year.
Quote from: warriorchick on January 13, 2018, 08:25:10 AM
I don't think Rowsey's non-shooting improvements this year, including his passing, have gotten the proper amount of recognition. He had 8 assists in the Seton Hall game, which was about 7 more than he averaged last year.
Agreed. He is our best point guard option on the team (though flawed). Elliott may be a better passer but I don't think he could handle the point 25+ minutes a game like Rowsey right now.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 12, 2018, 08:33:01 PM
Agree. I know some on this board still think he should jack 3s when open but I'm relieved that Wojo has apparently put the kibosh on that idea.
Watching Frolling jack 3s is also frustrating. 1-12 is bad enough but his form looks lousy and he rarely comes close on the shot.
Exactly, and there is no reason for him to shoot those 3s. They are essentially turn overs. He is, at best, the 5th or 6th best 3 point option on the team... with only Theo and Matt being worse.
Quote from: The Lens on January 13, 2018, 07:31:54 AM
Sorry Dad!
What you?re seeing is a lot of ppl who thought we might have the corner and looking at 12-6, and after last night we realize it?s more fighting for 10-8 / 9-9.
I was working yesterday, kinda glad I missed that one because I woulda been wicked bummed.
And I agree, it's no surprise to see the Debbie downers back who only show after a loss. HEAVEN FORBID you acknowledge a win.
Losses sting, and they suck, but whoever thought we were going 12-6 or 13-5 because we beat seton hall is going to be in for a rude awakening when we don't go 30-0 next year.
The D must be addressed. (Broken record guy over here).
Quote from: MUpilot on January 12, 2018, 07:25:42 PM
More sacar? Why.....
He's a liability at the free throw line. Jamal should have had sacars minutes
Yes, but he does draw fouls. One of MU's problems is that they shoot a lot less free throws than their opponents. When you draw fouls, you cause the other team to sit players, because of foul trouble. This is the downside of having a team that relies on three point shooting.
Quote from: jsglow on January 12, 2018, 08:59:31 PM
So typical. All the naysayers out. Butler, in desperation mode and let by a stud Senior, beats MU and the world melts down. We're fine people. Get ready for Monday. Drink your drink and chill.
To be fair (and honest) nearly every comment (positive, negative, neutral) after nearly every game (win, lose, play well or poorly) are "typical" and predictable. This one ("chill, get off of the ledge") included.
It would be awesome just one time for the ledge walkers to be the chill ones, and the relax types to be losing their minds.
Quote from: tower912 on January 13, 2018, 09:37:00 AM
It would be awesome just one time for the ledge walkers to be the chill ones, and the relax types to be losing their minds.
With about ten minutes to go, MU had a seven point lead and a 75+% chance of winning. In those ensuing ten minutes, there was a 18 point downswing. And, you are calling for calm?
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 13, 2018, 09:44:42 AM
With about ten minutes to go, MU had a seven point lead and a 75+% chance of winning. In those ensuing ten minutes, there was a 18 point downswing. And, you are calling for calm?
With 1:27 left and mu down 7, MU had a 97% chance of LOSING to providence...
It happens boss hoss. And losing stinks the big one. And I'm not defending the teams loss, but we've also snuck out some near impossible wins.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 13, 2018, 09:44:42 AM
With about ten minutes to go, MU had a seven point lead and a 75+% chance of winning. In those ensuing ten minutes, there was a 18 point downswing. And, you are calling for calm?
The thing is, like most here, I have been watching college basketball for a long time. I didn't enjoy the late run by Butler. But it isn't like it is the first time I have ever seen a home team go on a late run to turn the game and pull away. It happens quite regularly. I just don't take it personally that it happened to Marquette. I understand that Butler is very good at home and has owned MU since they joined the Big East. I don't like it, but I recognize it. What Butler did to MU is going to happen 20 times this weekend in other games. It is a common occurrence in college basketball. I don't expect MU to be exempt from the vicissitudes of conference road games against good opponents.
Quote from: fjm on January 13, 2018, 09:48:04 AM
With 1:27 left and mu down 7, MU had a 97% chance of LOSING to providence...
It happens boss hoss. And losing stinks the big one. And I'm not defending the teams loss, but we've also snuck out some near impossible wins.
It seems your point is the same as mine...emotions will drive posters responses. While it is annoying to some to have the ledge walkers, it is annoying to others to say "remain calm". Both groups are just as devoted and committed MU fans, except the few Vadger trolls.
If you took the KPom minute by minute win probability curves and overlaid those with poster sentiment, they would by highly correlated.
Now, about that Vichy MU defense that is #316 in the nation in two point defense...
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 13, 2018, 10:00:53 AM
It seems your point is the same as mine...emotions will drive posters responses. While it is annoying to some to have the ledge walkers, it is annoying to others to say "remain calm". Both groups are just as devoted and committed MU fans, except the few Vadger trolls.
If you took the KPom minute by minute win probability curves and overlaid those with poster sentiment, they would by highly correlated.
Now, about that Vichy MU defense that is #316 in the nation in two point defense...
Fair point sir! And yes, about that D!
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 13, 2018, 09:44:42 AM
With about ten minutes to go, MU had a seven point lead and a 75+% chance of winning. In those ensuing ten minutes, there was a 18 point downswing. And, you are calling for calm?
We are still on track for 9-9, which is where I think we end up.
Quote from: tower912 on January 13, 2018, 09:54:43 AM
The thing is, like most here, I have been watching college basketball for a long time. I didn't enjoy the late run by Butler. But it isn't like it is the first time I have ever seen a home team go on a late run to turn the game and pull away. It happens quite regularly. I just don't take it personally that it happened to Marquette. I understand that Butler is very good at home and has owned MU since they joined the Big East. I don't like it, but I recognize it. What Butler did to MU is going to happen 20 times this weekend in other games. It is a common occurrence in college basketball. I don't expect MU to be exempt from the vicissitudes of conference road games against good opponents.
Home teams will go on runs, but what Butler did to us last night was more than just going on a run to erase a deficit. I don't think you see many teams shoot at Butler's rate in the final 10 minutes, get so many easy looks, or hold their opponent to as few points. An 8-0 run or a 10-3 run, sure that happens. Didn't Butler go on like 17-2 run in just 3 or 4 minutes? That seems a lot different than a typical second wind kind of effort from the home team.
Quote from: skianth16 on January 13, 2018, 01:40:15 PM
Home teams will go on runs, but what Butler did to us last night was more than just going on a run to erase a deficit. I don't think you see many teams shoot at Butler's rate in the final 10 minutes, get so many easy looks, or hold their opponent to as few points. An 8-0 run or a 10-3 run, sure that happens. Didn't Butler go on like 17-2 run in just 3 or 4 minutes? That seems a lot different than a typical second wind kind of effort from the home team.
A 15-2 run in 3:07.
Quote from: skianth16 on January 13, 2018, 01:40:15 PM
Home teams will go on runs, but what Butler did to us last night was more than just going on a run to erase a deficit. I don't think you see many teams shoot at Butler's rate in the final 10 minutes, get so many easy looks, or hold their opponent to as few points. An 8-0 run or a 10-3 run, sure that happens. Didn't Butler go on like 17-2 run in just 3 or 4 minutes? That seems a lot different than a typical second wind kind of effort from the home team.
You do. You just aren't paying as close attention or as emotionally involved.
Quote from: lohaus on January 13, 2018, 03:38:50 AM
Agree, John seems to be more of a presence then Harry. Shoot, at least John goes for blocks, rebounds, and sets firm picks. I was all excited about Harry but am seeing another stiff so far. I don't know what the under hand dipsy do shot was. Take a dribble and go for a slam! Defensively, big as hell, just maul somebody . . . Once . . Please? You have 5 fouls. I find it hard to believe that our best shot we can get is a one pass left wing transition 3 from Harry that looks all awkward.
Statistically, Harry is actually a much better rebounder than Theo. I think that's why he was playing last night. And while they are both poor defenders, you are right that John can at least get the emphatic blocks. I think presence is a great word to describe what Theo brings to the team. Unless his shot starts falling, I want to see more Theo than Harry at this point.