Mark Miller mentioned this on Twitter and I wanted to reiterate it. This was a brilliant coaching job by Wojo. He had to deal with foul trouble for what felt like everyone. Rowsey and Froling had three in the first half. Anim, Elliott, and Heldt all fouled out. This was a great coaching job to juggle the roster despite so many guys being in foul trouble.
Agreed
I'm not disagreeing with you, but its funny that if Howard doesn't bank in that 3 in the last 2 minutes, this forum would be blowing up about how Wojo can't coach defense and his players lack mental toughness.
Quote from: Ellenson Guerrero on January 03, 2018, 09:24:22 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you, but its funny that if Howard doesn't bank in that 3 in the last 2 minutes, this forum would be blowing up about how Wojo can't coach defense and his players lack mental toughness.
These are my thoughts
Really? Our defensive scheme (or whatever that was) was shredded which is why we had foul trouble in the first place. Driving lanes everywhere and wide open guys under the basket all game. Heroic effort by Howard was why we won, not coaching brilliance.
Wojo has really grown and developed as a head coach in his first four years here. Pleased by his progress and excited for our program's trajectory.
My biggest critique, schematically, is how our heavy hedging on ball screens (defensively) with our bigs (Ellenson, Fisher, Heldt, Froling). I don't think we have the athleticism to play this style, as we expose our paint with smaller players helping, and we often get burned by it. I am not a fan of having our bigs so far away from the basket, especially when we lack size to begin with.
Next year's team will be better able to execute this, IMO.
Yeah, I would certainly tip my hat to Wojos handling of personnel, not coaching. Late OOBs were brutal and your team not knowing the shot clock is inexcusable.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 03, 2018, 09:20:32 PM
Mark Miller mentioned this on Twitter and I wanted to reiterate it. This was a brilliant coaching job by Wojo. He had to deal with foul trouble for what felt like everyone. Rowsey and Froling had three in the first half. Anim, Elliott, and Heldt all fouled out. This was a great coaching job to juggle the roster despite so many guys being in foul trouble.
Then defense has nothing to do with coaching because MU was piss-poor defensively from the first minute to the last.
Quote from: mayfairskatingrink on January 03, 2018, 09:34:14 PM
Then defense has nothing to do with coaching because MU was piss-poor defensively from the first minute to the last.
Go away. No one likes you.
I am a fan of Wojo, but have to admit that at times our defense is just horrible. Tonight i thought our defense was actually much better in the second half, the problem was Providence missed shots but got almost every fin offensive rebound that then resulted in a made shot or foul. I believe our defense has been better this year but the rebounding has been simply brutal. So many balls go thru our hands n right back to the opponent
Quote from: WE R FINAL FOUR on January 03, 2018, 09:28:01 PM
Yeah, I would certainly tip my hat to Wojos handling of personnel, not coaching. Late OOBs were brutal and your team not knowing the shot clock is inexcusable.
So because they team didn't execute you automatically assume Wojo didn't make clear how much time was on the shot clock?
Sorry but that one is on the guys on the floor.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on January 03, 2018, 10:00:19 PM
So because they team didn't execute you automatically assume Wojo didn't make clear how much time was on the shot clock?
Sorry but that one is on the guys on the floor.
*cut to the 'Nova game with Wojo sporting the huge Flava Flav clock necklace always showing the shot clock*
I think its funny that the only complaint I ever consistently see on here about the defense is the bigs hedging on screens....yet I rarely see us give up a bucket because of it. It is a tried and true defensive strategy used by many coaches. I think us fans just have a harder time diagnosing defensive problems than offensive ones.
I don't think there is any scheme that would magically turn this into a good defensive team. Howard and Rowsey are pis poor on ball defensive players. That is why our defense is so poor. They cannot contain anyone on the perimeter and it puts our other players into tough positions, hence the constant foul trouble. But what they bring on offense outweighs what they take away on defense. As long as they are our stars, we will be a poor defensive team, no matter the scheme. A pack line or a zone might make us marginally better, but it would slow down the tempo and hurt our offense. Only way we win is if we run, gun, and outscore the other guy.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on January 03, 2018, 10:00:19 PM
So because they team didn't execute you automatically assume Wojo didn't make clear how much time was on the shot clock?
Sorry but that one is on the guys on the floor.
Didn't execute? Not only did they not execute, no one had a clue. This was coming off a dead ball where it should have been discussed.......by the coach.
Thought it was brilliant the way Hauser was set up for the shot at the end.
Quote from: WE R FINAL FOUR on January 03, 2018, 10:11:17 PM
Didn't execute? Not only did they not execute, no one had a clue. This was coming off a dead ball where it should have been discussed.......by the coach.
I have no doubt it was discussed.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 03, 2018, 10:05:41 PM
I think its funny that the only complaint I ever consistently see on here about the defense is the bigs hedging on screens....yet I rarely see us give up a bucket because of it. It is a tried and true defensive strategy used by many coaches. I think us fans just have a harder time diagnosing defensive problems than offensive ones.
I don't think there is any scheme that would magically turn this into a good defensive team. Howard and Rowsey are pis poor on ball defensive players. That is why our defense is so poor. They cannot contain anyone on the perimeter and it puts our other players into tough positions, hence the constant foul trouble. But what they bring on offense outweighs what they take away on defense. As long as they are our stars, we will be a poor defensive team, no matter the scheme. A pack line or a zone might make us marginally better, but it would slow down the tempo and hurt our offense. Only way we win is if we run, gun, and outscore the other guy.
First and second play of the game. PC went right at it. Cooley then went at our guards for foul trouble as we pressure the line. This is no mistake. And we see it every game and then blame the refs. You and Sultan can keep defending the defense but the scheme is horrid as supported by the stats. Our defense couldn't be worse. Despite your claims, it is is no way "great". Please give it up.
The offense is extremely special in so many ways. That gathers my focus and should gain yours. Our defense is best when we outshoot the opponents.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 03, 2018, 10:05:41 PM
I think its funny that the only complaint I ever consistently see on here about the defense is the bigs hedging on screens....yet I rarely see us give up a bucket because of it. It is a tried and true defensive strategy used by many coaches. I think us fans just have a harder time diagnosing defensive problems than offensive ones.
I don't think there is any scheme that would magically turn this into a good defensive team. Howard and Rowsey are pis poor on ball defensive players. That is why our defense is so poor. They cannot contain anyone on the perimeter and it puts our other players into tough positions, hence the constant foul trouble. But what they bring on offense outweighs what they take away on defense. As long as they are our stars, we will be a poor defensive team, no matter the scheme. A pack line or a zone might make us marginally better, but it would slow down the tempo and hurt our offense. Only way we win is if we run, gun, and outscore the other guy.
This is correct. We make other mistakes but our teams biggest issue is ball handlers blow right by markus and Rowsey. One thing i noticed was Howard really played some solid on ball defense in the second half. I was happy to see it but on the other hand was kind of disappointed that the best defense i had seen from him was during a career half. Come on man defense like that has to be an everyday kinda thing!!
Come on fellas. . . We have to hedge with bigs because we have smurfs for guards. I actually think the help rotation on the big rolling is much better allowing the bigs to recover. Even the second pass from big to wing rotation is somewhat improving. Don't get me wrong, the second rotation can use help. I agree with another poster that the smurfs on ball defense is improving. There is only so much a 5'9" dude can do to a 6'6" guy.
What is the other option without the big hedge? A drive down the middle uncontested.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 03, 2018, 10:05:41 PM
I think its funny that the only complaint I ever consistently see on here about the defense is the bigs hedging on screens....yet I rarely see us give up a bucket because of it. It is a tried and true defensive strategy used by many coaches. I think us fans just have a harder time diagnosing defensive problems than offensive ones.
I don't think there is any scheme that would magically turn this into a good defensive team. Howard and Rowsey are pis poor on ball defensive players. That is why our defense is so poor. They cannot contain anyone on the perimeter and it puts our other players into tough positions, hence the constant foul trouble. But what they bring on offense outweighs what they take away on defense. As long as they are our stars, we will be a poor defensive team, no matter the scheme. A pack line or a zone might make us marginally better, but it would slow down the tempo and hurt our offense. Only way we win is if we run, gun, and outscore the other guy.
TAMU might consider the coaching ranks!
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 03, 2018, 10:21:15 PM
First and second play of the game. PC went right at it. Cooley then went at our guards for foul trouble as we pressure the line. This is no mistake. And we see it every game and then blame the refs. You and Sultan can keep defending the defense but the scheme is horrid as supported by the stats. Our defense couldn't be worse. Despite your claims, it is is no way "great". Please give it up.
The offense is extremely special in so many ways. That gathers my focus and should gain yours. Our defense is best when we outshoot the opponents.
Dr. B,
Re-read my post. I didn't say the defense was great tonight. In fact I described it as "so poor." I just don't think the scheme is the culprit. Howard and Rowsey are historically bad on ball defenders and the rest of the team isn't good enough to compensate for that. I don't think there is a scheme out there that could hide those two.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on January 03, 2018, 10:16:16 PM
I have no doubt it was discussed.
Really? It was discussed and 10 seconds later not one player on the court was screaming for a shot.....pointing to the shot clock.....jumping up and down.....asking each other why a shot wasn't taken sooner? Watch it again.
Yes, Wojo can't be on the court, but I find it hard to believe if it was absolutely discussed immediately before the inbound, that all five players forgot the situation.
I am probably one of the biggest Wojo fans on this board ... and I think the failure to realize the shot clock was about to go out is on Wojo.
I think he's becoming a good to very good coach, but none of them are perfect.
I have seen 2 games this season in which Roy Williams did a crap job coaching UNC. He even admitted it after one of them. It happens. Coaches can be "off," too. And they certainly can make a mistake or two in a game.
Quote from: WE R FINAL FOUR on January 03, 2018, 10:35:59 PM
Really? It was discussed and 10 seconds later not one player on the court was screaming for a shot.....pointing to the shot clock.....jumping up and down.....asking each other why a shot wasn't taken sooner? Watch it again.
Yes, Wojo can't be on the court, but I find it hard to believe if it was absolutely discussed immediately before the inbound, that all five players forgot the situation.
Agreed. No doubt that Wojo just shouted coach speak at these guys the entire timeout and told them to go play rec ball out there.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 03, 2018, 10:33:59 PM
Dr. B,
Re-read my post. I didn't say the defense was great tonight. In fact I described it as "so poor." I just don't think the scheme is the culprit. Howard and Rowsey are historically bad on ball defenders and the rest of the team isn't good enough to compensate for that. I don't think there is a scheme out there that could hide those two.
I have read this post and your other posts where you called this defense "great". The scheme is horrid. It builds from the outside in instead of the inside out. Fourth worst statistically defensively horrid game of the year. MU lost the other three. Markus saved us tonight. Wojo gets kudos for throwing junk defenses out there to throw off Cartwright. Worst in the BE by far. Don't bother posting your response. Wojo earned his stripes tonight with his situationals, despite his base defense.
Quote from: WE R FINAL FOUR on January 03, 2018, 10:35:59 PM
Really? It was discussed and 10 seconds later not one player on the court was screaming for a shot.....pointing to the shot clock.....jumping up and down.....asking each other why a shot wasn't taken sooner? Watch it again.
Yes, Wojo can't be on the court, but I find it hard to believe if it was absolutely discussed immediately before the inbound, that all five players forgot the situation.
It happens fairly often in the college game. Kids lose track, make an extra pass, face good D and don't get a shot off.
I give Wojo the benefit to of the doubt. Agree to disagree.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 03, 2018, 10:46:06 PM
I have read this post and your other posts where you called this defense "great". The scheme is horrid. It builds from the outside in instead of the inside out. Fourth worst statistically defensively horrid game of the year. MU lost the other three. Markus saved us tonight. Wojo gets kudos for throwing junk defenses out there to throw off Cartwright. Worst in the BE by far. Don't bother posting your response. Wojo earned his stripes tonight with his situationals, despite his base defense.
There has been exactly one post where I called anything about our defense great. And that was talking specifically about the Xavier game where we held a top 5 offense to under their season averages on FG%, 3P%, and eFG%. Even then I later admitted I should have added "for us" after the great.
We are a horrid defensive team. I think the majority of that is because we have two horrid on ball defenders starting at guard. Howard is to defense what Derrick Wilson was to offense. His presence on that side of the court makes his teammates worse. I don't see a defensive scheme that can hide both Howard and Rowsey without compromising the uptempo offense that is our bread and butter.
We have the same diagnosis, just think its different underlying causes. I place the blame on the player's lack of on ball defense and Wojo's inability to develop that or recruit that in his players.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 03, 2018, 10:58:47 PM
There has been exactly one post where I called anything about our defense great. And that was talking specifically about the Xavier game where we held a top 5 offense to under their season averages on FG%, 3P%, and eFG%. Even then I later admitted I should have added "for us" after the great.
We are a horrid defensive team. I think the majority of that is because we have two horrid on ball defenders starting at guard. Howard is to defense what Derrick Wilson was to offense. His presence on that side of the court makes his teammates worse. I don't see a defensive scheme that can hide both Howard and Rowsey without compromising the uptempo offense that is our bread and butter.
We have the same diagnosis, just think its different underlying causes. I place the blame on the player's lack of on ball defense and Wojo's inability to develop that or recruit that in his players.
Agreed and it's another reason why the next couple years we will be really good.
Markus inability to defend will be able to be hidden a bit more as we keep adding loads of size around him especially more at guard.
As important as Rowsey is to this years roster. It will be nice not having to have him and Howard on the court together for 30+ min
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on January 03, 2018, 10:46:34 PM
It happens fairly often in the college game. Kids lose track, make an extra pass, face good D and don't get a shot off.
I give Wojo the benefit to of the doubt. Agree to disagree.
Sounds good. Great win tonight.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 03, 2018, 10:58:47 PM
There has been exactly one post where I called anything about our defense great. And that was talking specifically about the Xavier game where we held a top 5 offense to under their season averages on FG%, 3P%, and eFG%. Even then I later admitted I should have added "for us" after the great.
We are a horrid defensive team. I think the majority of that is because we have two horrid on ball defenders starting at guard. Howard is to defense what Derrick Wilson was to offense. His presence on that side of the court makes his teammates worse. I don't see a defensive scheme that can hide both Howard and Rowsey without compromising the uptempo offense that is our bread and butter.
We have the same diagnosis, just think its different underlying causes. I place the blame on the player's lack of on ball defense and Wojo's inability to develop that or recruit that in his players.
Maybe I am blurring your posts and the love fest here for your post...plus, the Paint Touches blog posts on this. My response may be an overreaction to the defensive philosophy. My problem with these posts are they blur the reality of how bad this defensive scheme is...not that it doesn't reflect the personnel but because, with this offense, with just a mediocre defense, MU could be Top 10. Worst MU defense in my lifetime.
I believe Wojo can construct a mediocre scheme better than this crap.
Signed,
Six more wins!
Quote from: CTWarrior on January 03, 2018, 09:25:46 PM
Really? Our defensive scheme (or whatever that was) was shredded which is why we had foul trouble in the first place. Driving lanes everywhere and wide open guys under the basket all game. Heroic effort by Howard was why we won, not coaching brilliance.
I agree. If this title was "recruiting brilliance" I'd be all in.
It was a great win, an all-time great performance from Markus. Defensively, this team is going to struggle. Two tiny guards, two skinny freshmen, 9 players...... One day, there will be a balanced, experienced roster. Then, finally, we will know how good Wojo's defensive philosophy is. For now, keep shooting.
I agree, Ed Cooley coached a hell of a game. Did an amazing job with limited resources. In my opinion, the best X and O coach in the big east.
Oh, this post was about Wojo? He's getting better...
Quote from: WarriorFan on January 04, 2018, 06:41:47 AM
I agree, Ed Cooley coached a hell of a game. Did an amazing job with limited resources. In my opinion, the best X and O coach in the big east.
Oh, this post was about Wojo? He's getting better...
.....did an amazing job with limited resources...... Wojo has 9 guys ever night. How many points can realistically be expected from Heldt, Froling, John, Elliot, Cain, and Anim combined on any given night?
I get that the defense is a problem, but strictly from a man management standpoint last night was excellent from Wojo. You won't win often with a 28-17 foul disparity on the road when you have three players to zero fouling out.
No one can deny Markus' heroics, but just as important was us still having 5 guys on the court in overtime.
Maybe wojo should have just followed Vogue's idea and let them play until they fouled out.
Quote from: WE R FINAL FOUR on January 03, 2018, 10:35:59 PM
Really? It was discussed and 10 seconds later not one player on the court was screaming for a shot.....pointing to the shot clock.....jumping up and down.....asking each other why a shot wasn't taken sooner? Watch it again.
Yes, Wojo can't be on the court, but I find it hard to believe if it was absolutely discussed immediately before the inbound, that all five players forgot the situation.
So as Wojo was talking to the team not a single assistant or player mentioned "Coach, there is only 10 seconds on the shot clock. Maybe we should have play for that" or right after they did, Wojo said "no let's go with a 24 second play" . To me the more likely scenario is a lack of execution.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 03, 2018, 10:05:41 PM
I think its funny that the only complaint I ever consistently see on here about the defense is the bigs hedging on screens....yet I rarely see us give up a bucket because of it. It is a tried and true defensive strategy used by many coaches. I think us fans just have a harder time diagnosing defensive problems than offensive ones.
I don't think there is any scheme that would magically turn this into a good defensive team. Howard and Rowsey are pis poor on ball defensive players. That is why our defense is so poor. They cannot contain anyone on the perimeter and it puts our other players into tough positions, hence the constant foul trouble. But what they bring on offense outweighs what they take away on defense. As long as they are our stars, we will be a poor defensive team, no matter the scheme. A pack line or a zone might make us marginally better, but it would slow down the tempo and hurt our offense. Only way we win is if we run, gun, and outscore the other guy.
Yep. People complained about Buzz hedging screens too and that team was much better defensively. This is a personnel problem more than anything.
One of the keys at the end was that we still had guys in natural positions. Theo - #5, Sammy - #4, Cain - #3, Markus - #2, Rowsey - #1.
Really needed to avoid double OT.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 03, 2018, 10:46:06 PM
I have read this post and your other posts where you called this defense "great". The scheme is horrid. It builds from the outside in instead of the inside out. Fourth worst statistically defensively horrid game of the year. MU lost the other three. Markus saved us tonight. Wojo gets kudos for throwing junk defenses out there to throw off Cartwright. Worst in the BE by far. Don't bother posting your response. Wojo earned his stripes tonight with his situationals, despite his base defense.
You keep saying "built from the outside in." You think a pack line defense would be better? I think teams would shoot right over it. And I think it would slow the pace down too much which would impact the offense.
Quote from: WarriorFan on January 04, 2018, 06:41:47 AM
I agree, Ed Cooley coached a hell of a game. Did an amazing job with limited resources. In my opinion, the best X and O coach in the big east.
Oh, this post was about Wojo? He's getting better...
Yet Cooley's players didn't execute down the stretch and completely blew that game. People here would be screaming about Wojo had that happened to MU.
So instead we are debating his "inexcusable" coaching when they had a shot clock violation.
Quote from: WarriorFan on January 04, 2018, 06:41:47 AM
I agree, Ed Cooley coached a hell of a game. Did an amazing job with limited resources. In my opinion, the best X and O coach in the big east.
Oh, this post was about Wojo? He's getting better...
I think Cooley is great
But head to Providence boards and it's Cooley who they think struggled and Wojo "beats him 9 of 10 times in OT scenarios".
Quote from: Sultan of Kookiness on January 04, 2018, 07:42:46 AM
You keep saying "built from the outside in." You think a pack line defense would be better? I think teams would shoot right over it. And I think it would slow the pace down too much which would impact the offense.
I don't know if a full pack line would work, but I do think they extend the defense unnecessarily, which certainly does not play to strengths. Neither of the guards is quick enough to stay in front of anyone when they pick up 30 feet from the hoop.
Quote from: Sultan of Kookiness on January 04, 2018, 07:46:27 AM
Yet Cooley's players didn't execute down the stretch and completely blew that game. People here would be screaming about Wojo had that happened to MU.
So instead we are debating his "inexcusable" coaching when they had a shot clock violation.
I don't want to get too deep on Wojo's overall coaching, but I think it's a stretch to call juggling the roster due to foul trouble as "brilliant coaching". Wojo did it well last night, but that should be a given for any coach at this level.
Quote from: WarriorFan on January 04, 2018, 08:43:19 AM
Sultan/Tower- if you read my earlier posts you know I'm a huge Wojo supporter. I thought Providence out-game planned us and got a lot of easy buckets early as a result. Wojo made some adjustments in 2nd half. Mostly though, we out played their excellent game plan.
I think Cooley is a great coach and we are lucky to have him in the big east.
Oh I think Cooley is a very good coach. I just think fans focus on the negative, expect coaches to make the right call at all times, and then expect players to perfectly execute.
This whole shot clock debate is a perfect example. Did Wojo inform his players of the shot clock? Maybe he did. Maybe he overlooked it.
But regardless, it was one play. To call that "inexcusable" is simply bizarre to me. If it was a chronic problem, then yeah. But it wasn't - and it isn't. It happens.
Same with Cooley. His team flat out didn't execute down the stretch. It happens. But he is obviously a very good coach given the body of his work.
Quote from: WarriorFan on January 04, 2018, 08:43:19 AM
Sultan/Tower- if you read my earlier posts you know I'm a huge Wojo supporter. I thought Providence out-game planned us and got a lot of easy buckets early as a result. Wojo made some adjustments in 2nd half. Mostly though, we out played their excellent game plan.
I think Cooley is a great coach and we are lucky to have him in the big east.
Wojo did seem to make some adjustments that worked in the second half - the number of easy buckets for PC dropped off quite a bit. Kudos to him for that. At the end of the day, though, we don't win this game even if Markus score 35. Think about that. It's kind of tough to say this was a well coached game when we needed a 50 point performance to squeak out an OT win against a team playing without its leading scorer and rebounder.
Wojo deserves some credit for personnel management, but the players, especially Rowsey, deserve just as much for adjusting their games when playing in foul trouble.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 03, 2018, 10:46:06 PM
I have read this post and your other posts where you called this defense "great". The scheme is horrid. It builds from the outside in instead of the inside out. Fourth worst statistically defensively horrid game of the year. MU lost the other three. Markus saved us tonight. Wojo gets kudos for throwing junk defenses out there to throw off Cartwright. Worst in the BE by far. Don't bother posting your response. Wojo earned his stripes tonight with his situationals, despite his base defense.
It builds from the outside in because that is where college teams are going. Like it or not, it's better to die by twos than by threes. I think there are tweaks that can be made: don't hedge as hard/far and bring the weakside help closer to the lane to help with the big recovery....however with Rowsey's major defensive liabilities and Howard's significant liabilities I just don't think you can tweak enough to solve everything.
Once Elliot came in to make Cartwright, we definitely started to slow them down, but it also means the offense slows down a little bit so it's a delicate balance.
Wojo deserves some credit for personnel management, but the players, especially Rowsey, deserve just as much for adjusting their games when playing in foul trouble.
[/quote]
Agreed, and they didn't do it sitting on the bench.
Agreed, double overtime would have been a disaster, but you can't play for that or even overtime with this team. Out shoot the mothers and get more rebounds and don't let V slow us down.
jsglow, great point.
And TAMU has it A++.
Quote from: mu03eng on January 04, 2018, 09:31:43 AM
It builds from the outside in because that is where college teams are going. Like it or not, it's better to die by twos than by threes. I think there are tweaks that can be made: don't hedge as hard/far and bring the weakside help closer to the lane to help with the big recovery....however with Rowsey's major defensive liabilities and Howard's significant liabilities I just don't think you can tweak enough to solve everything.
Once Elliot came in to make Cartwright, we definitely started to slow them down, but it also means the offense slows down a little bit so it's a delicate balance.
This is exactly correct. Scheming to cover up for one undersized, bad defender would be difficult. Two is pretty much impossible.
The defensive shortcomings of Howard and Rowsey is the price you pay for (necessarily) having them on the court together. At the end of the day, Marquette is better that way.
If someone could point out a great defensive team with two sub-6 foot guards who are poor on-ball defenders, I'd love to see it.
Quote from: Ellenson Guerrero on January 03, 2018, 09:24:22 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you, but its funny that if Howard doesn't bank in that 3 in the last 2 minutes, this forum would be blowing up about how Wojo can't coach defense and his players lack mental toughness.
Or that charge called on Cartwright when, I think, Providence was up by around 6 with 2-3 minutes to play. Massive call.
As to coaching, I have to admit, I'm very much a novice in assessing a coach's body of work during an entire game. I'll defer to the resident experts.
Quote from: skianth16 on January 04, 2018, 09:06:30 AM
Wojo did seem to make some adjustments that worked in the second half - the number of easy buckets for PC dropped off quite a bit. Kudos to him for that. At the end of the day, though, we don't win this game even if Markus score 35. Think about that. It's kind of tough to say this was a well coached game when we needed a 50 point performance to squeak out an OT win against a team playing without its leading scorer and rebounder.
Wojo deserves some credit for personnel management, but the players, especially Rowsey, deserve just as much for adjusting their games when playing in foul trouble.
If we assume that Markus scores 17 points less and no other player scores then yes, we would have lost but sometimes you ride the hot hand/weakness in the other team and part of being a good coach is getting your other players excited to let someone else shoot the ball. Markus shot 19 times. If he only scored 35 he probably wouldn't have gotten to shoot it 19 times so Rowsey, Hauser, Cain, Elliot, et al would have gotten more looks and would likely have scored more.
Taking any single stat or event in a game/season independently of other events/stats is a fruitless exercise. The number of people on the board who take one minute stat/event and analyze it in a vacuum and decree the team/Wojo sucks, even when the team wins, is staggering.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 04, 2018, 09:55:19 AM
This is exactly correct. Scheming to cover up for one undersized, bad defender would be difficult. Two is pretty much impossible.
The defensive shortcomings of Howard and Rowsey is the price you pay for (necessarily) having them on the court together. At the end of the day, Marquette is better that way.
If someone could point out a great defensive team with two sub-6 foot guards who are poor on-ball defenders, I'd love to see it.
It is very apparent that most of MU's defensive problems start there. I would add that in addition to being short, they are also not thick so fighting through a defensive screen is hard. I believe this is why we see so much hedging on the defensive end.
Quote from: tower912 on January 04, 2018, 07:21:25 AM
Maybe wojo should have just followed Vogue's idea and let them play until they fouled out.
WE HAVE A WINNER!!!
Quote from: tower912 on January 04, 2018, 07:21:25 AM
Maybe wojo should have just followed Vogue's idea and let them play until they fouled out.
You know what is kinda funny -- he kind of did that with Sacar
Quote from: Pakuni on January 04, 2018, 09:55:19 AM
This is exactly correct. Scheming to cover up for one undersized, bad defender would be difficult. Two is pretty much impossible.
The defensive shortcomings of Howard and Rowsey is the price you pay for (necessarily) having them on the court together. At the end of the day, Marquette is better that way.
If someone could point out a great defensive team with two sub-6 foot guards who are poor on-ball defenders, I'd love to see it.
And all the evidence you need is in the game itself, how the defense improved when Elliot came into the game and guarded Cartwright the Providence offense slowed down some. We saw the same thing against Wichita State, etc.
Whether the Scoop audience agrees with it or not, Wojo has made a coaching decision that says I'm going to maximize my offensive potential at the expense of my defensive capabilities. One can argue as to whether that is the right call or not, but one cannot argue that the defense sucks without acknowledging that it is a zero sum game and that you can't maximize offense while still improving the defense. I fully support the strategy.
Side note, this type of defensive trade off is going to show up more glaringly in a very tightly officiating game as one of the ways to make up for the defensive limitations is to be a little more physical. If you take that away either buckets are going to be easier or FTR is going to go through the roof.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 04, 2018, 11:02:52 AM
You know what is kinda funny -- he kind of did that with Sacar
Played only 9 minutes
WE JUST WON THE NATIONAL TITLE!
Handful of Scoopers: "Six lucky wins. If three of our guys didn't score a lot of points, we would have lost. And that one inbound play in our regional semifinal win ... that was weak. And after all this time, Theo still gets called for offensive fouls. And can you believe Wojo had Heldt hedge twice? Wojo only wins the easy national titles."
Quote from: MU82 on January 05, 2018, 09:32:50 PM
WE JUST WON THE NATIONAL TITLE!
Handful of Scoopers: "Six lucky wins. If three of our guys didn't score a lot of points, we would have lost. And that one inbound play in our regional semifinal win ... that was weak. And after all this time, Theo still gets called for offensive fouls. And can you believe Wojo had Heldt hedge twice? Wojo only wins the easy national titles."
MU won't ever get to the Sweet 16 under Wojo.
Quote from: Newsdreams on January 05, 2018, 09:19:14 PM
Played only 9 minutes
I could not watch the game, how many points did Sacar prevent? Were his fouls worth while?
How many points did we win by in regulation? 0?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 03, 2018, 10:05:41 PM
I think its funny that the only complaint I ever consistently see on here about the defense is the bigs hedging on screens....yet I rarely see us give up a bucket because of it. It is a tried and true defensive strategy used by many coaches. I think us fans just have a harder time diagnosing defensive problems than offensive ones.
I don't think there is any scheme that would magically turn this into a good defensive team. Howard and Rowsey are pis poor on ball defensive players. That is why our defense is so poor. They cannot contain anyone on the perimeter and it puts our other players into tough positions, hence the constant foul trouble. But what they bring on offense outweighs what they take away on defense. As long as they are our stars, we will be a poor defensive team, no matter the scheme. A pack line or a zone might make us marginally better, but it would slow down the tempo and hurt our offense. Only way we win is if we run, gun, and outscore the other guy.
Exactly right, TAMU, which is another sign of Wojo's good (and improving) coaching. Wojo has done the cost-benefit analysis and correctly in my opinion. It paid off last year and will continue to pay off this year. Of course, next year with a slightly different set of players, he'll do more CBA, and I expect our defensive will improve even more than it has over the last two years, all the while maintaining one of the most prolific offenses in all of college Hoops.
goinUptown
Quote from: mu03eng on January 04, 2018, 11:13:15 AM
And all the evidence you need is in the game itself, how the defense improved when Elliot came into the game and guarded Cartwright the Providence offense slowed down some. We saw the same thing against Wichita State, etc.
Whether the Scoop audience agrees with it or not, Wojo has made a coaching decision that says I'm going to maximize my offensive potential at the expense of my defensive capabilities. One can argue as to whether that is the right call or not, but one cannot argue that the defense sucks without acknowledging that it is a zero sum game and that you can't maximize offense while still improving the defense. I fully support the strategy.
Side note, this type of defensive trade off is going to show up more glaringly in a very tightly officiating game as one of the ways to make up for the defensive limitations is to be a little more physical. If you take that away either buckets are going to be easier or FTR is going to go through the roof.
Good analysis
Quote from: mu03eng on January 04, 2018, 09:31:43 AM
It builds from the outside in because that is where college teams are going. Like it or not, it's better to die by twos than by threes. I think there are tweaks that can be made: don't hedge as hard/far and bring the weakside help closer to the lane to help with the big recovery....however with Rowsey's major defensive liabilities and Howard's significant liabilities I just don't think you can tweak enough to solve everything.
Once Elliot came in to make Cartwright, we definitely started to slow them down, but it also means the offense slows down a little bit so it's a delicate balance.
Show me a top defense in college that builds from the outside in? I keep hearing this here and find no evidence to this myth propagated on Scoop. Every Top 20 Pomeroy defense protects the paint or pressures full court (MSU, Virginia, Purdue, Texas, Tech, A&M, Cin).
75% of the points MU gives up are from inside the trey paint line (2FGM+FTM). MU fouls at a high rate (39% or 274th nationally yet the foul rate is a whopping 59% in BE play). One third of MU's opponents' shots are bunnies at the rim where they shoot 67%. 77% of their shots off a rebound are at the rim where they shoot 72% (compare that to MSU where they only give 34% of rebound shots at the rim). I see a post jokingly calling out MU's free throwing shooting defense (77% and 345th nationally, 82% in the BE). It's high because we foul guard's out top chasing them or on blow bys. (#ftsnomatta but #givinguseastpointsmatta)
I see your other post defending the defense and pointing out the shortfalls. We all get that. We are not expecting this to be a Top 20 defense, just a Top 100. I get Wojo's philosophy. We do defend the three well, but is that because the paint is so wide open and any threes come late or are rushed in transition? We lament our guards sitting on the bench because they are in foul trouble because they are out of position for the dribble drives, are bad on ball defenders or are too small. I hear the argument that going to another defense would be worse even though our A/B opponents are scoring in the 80s and 90s on us already.
You point out the positives, but the negatives are brutal. Just a mediocre defense, but with adjustments with the chasing, can make this team deadly with this offense. I mean really, if your guards cannot defend the blow-by, why are they chasing? If you have to hedge 5-8 feet past the key as a result, to give up the paint, why? If your team is in constant foul trouble, why? If your team is out of position on rebounds, why? If you are giving up 75% of your points inside the line, why keep doing what you are doing 30-40 feet from the basket? Would we give up 100 points trying something else? Wojo has put in the zone trap.
Just asking for a Top 100 not a Mendoza Line defense.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 06, 2018, 10:42:23 AM
Show me a top defense in college that builds from the outside in? I keep hearing this here and find no evidence to this myth propagated on Scoop. Every Top 20 Pomeroy defense protects the paint or pressures full court (MSU, Virginia, Purdue, Texas, Tech, A&M, Cin).
75% of the points MU gives up are from inside the trey paint line (2FGM+FTM). MU fouls at a high rate (39% or 274th nationally yet the foul rate is a whopping 59% in BE play). One third of MU's opponents' shots are bunnies at the rim where they shoot 67%. 77% of their shots off a rebound are at the rim where they shoot 72% (compare that to MSU where they only give 34% of rebound shots at the rim). I see a post jokingly calling out MU's free throwing shooting defense (77% and 345th nationally, 82% in the BE). It's high because we foul guard's out top chasing them or on blow bys. (#ftsnomatta but #givinguseastpointsmatta)
I see your other post defending the defense and pointing out the shortfalls. We all get that. We are not expecting this to be a Top 20 defense, just a Top 100. I get Wojo's philosophy. We do defend the three well, but is that because the paint is so wide open and any threes come late or are rushed in transition? We lament our guards sitting on the bench because they are in foul trouble because they are out of position for the dribble drives, are bad on ball defenders or are too small. I hear the argument that going to another defense would be worse even though our A/B opponents are scoring in the 80s and 90s on us already.
You point out the positives, but the negatives are brutal. Just a mediocre defense, but with adjustments with the chasing, can make this team deadly with this offense. I mean really, if your guards cannot defend the blow-by, why are they chasing? If you have to hedge 5-8 feet past the key as a result, to give up the paint, why? If your team is in constant foul trouble, why? If your team is out of position on rebounds, why? If you are giving up 75% of your points inside the line, why keep doing what you are doing 30-40 feet from the basket? Would we give up 100 points trying something else? Wojo has put in the zone trap.
Just asking for a Top 100 not a Mendoza Line defense.
Instead of complaining again and again and again, what exactly would you do? I mean outside of the cliched "build from the inside out." Because I don't see many good options that aren't going to cause problems elsewhere.
Quote from: Sultan of Kookiness on January 06, 2018, 11:54:28 AM
Instead of complaining again and again and again, what exactly would you do? I mean outside of the cliched "build from the inside out." Because I don't see many good options that aren't going to cause problems elsewhere.
This thread is about you Scoop Intelligencia defending Wojo's scheme. I provided an analysis why it is a horrid scheme. If your position continues to be "what else would you do?" Or this is the "new way teams are playing defense", please provide your analysis. I'll await your detailed response
As to what I would do, I covered it in numerous times in past threads. Again, a varied pack line defense that utilizes our big height, protects the paint and our guards. This high pressure, scramble defense is not a defense that deserved so much off-season attention.
As to complaining again and again, I will stop when we play start to mediocre defense again and again.
I don't know that a packline would work with this team either. That would just make us have to defend longer. There are a lot of times where we defend well almost the full shot clock only to give up a layup after a breakdown at the end.
Maybe that's a function of us being overextended. Maybe the packline helps us limit penetration and makes our rotations easier. However, that limits possessions and less chances for us to outscore the.
Maybe Wojo wants the other team to shoot quickly and hope it's a long two and get the ball back on our better half of the court quicker. Almost a less extreme Grinnell style where it comes down to which offense is more efficient and hope we can force some turnovers even if he trade off us some easier two pointers for them.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 06, 2018, 12:15:02 PM
This thread is about you Scoop Intelligencia defending Wojo's scheme. I provided an analysis why it is a horrid scheme. If your position continues to be "what else would you do?" Or this is the "new way teams are playing defense", please provide your analysis. I'll await your detailed response
As to what I would do, I covered it in numerous times past threads. Again, a varied pack line defense that utilizes our big height, protects the paint and our guards. This high pressure, scramble defense is not a defense that deserved so much off-season attention.
As to complaining again and again, I will stop when we play start to mediocre defense again and again.
I've said it before. Continue to do what they are doing because I think the problem is the players more than the scheme.
And I think a pack line would be terrible because teams would shoot over the guards all day long. (And I would rather guard the 3 than the 2.) And I don't want to slow down the pace because it fuels the offense.
I expect the defense to be substantially better next year with Rowsey gone, Morrow eligible and John more experienced.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 06, 2018, 12:15:02 PM
As to what I would do, I covered it in numerous times in past threads. Again, a varied pack line defense that utilizes our big height, protects the paint and our guards. This high pressure, scramble defense is not a defense that deserved so much off-season attention.
Year two of this where even if you went with a new scheme it is too late to teach it effectively.
If it were me I would do some of what Wojo is doing - throw in a few traps/zones to confuse and maybe cause a turnover or quick possession. I would tighten the scramble up too. Cut down on the real-estate they are trying to cover. Finally there seems to be an execution problem with the defense where the helper is constantly either confused/paralyzed into not helping, helping when it is not needed or out of position to help effectively. Causing extra rotations and lots of chasing. I think this group can even play this scheme more effectively...they rarely look like they are playing defense as one unit (and thats not a height problem)
Someone pointed out during our good stretch at providence we did better on D. I have that impression to and wish i had the replay or stats breaking that out...would actually inform if it is true and would confirm the MH/Rowsey at the same time issue.
I think a pack line would improve the defense. But I think it would hurt the offense more. We had a similar situation last season when Wojo fell in love with the zone after beating Nova last season. Went 1-4 in those 5 games before switching back to man full time.
I think with the players we have our best chance for winning is maximizing the offense even at expense of the defense. It's not because of height or experience (though those don't help) it's because Rowsey and Howard are historically bad on ball defenders. We will miss Rowsey overall next year but his departure will be addition by subtraction on the defensive side.
Maybe adding a few curveballs every once in awhile to throw off opposing offenses.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 06, 2018, 12:15:02 PM
This thread is about you Scoop Intelligencia defending Wojo's scheme. I provided an analysis why it is a horrid scheme. If your position continues to be "what else would you do?" Or this is the "new way teams are playing defense", please provide your analysis. I'll await your detailed response
As to what I would do, I covered it in numerous times in past threads. Again, a varied pack line defense that utilizes our big height, protects the paint and our guards. This high pressure, scramble defense is not a defense that deserved so much off-season attention.
As to complaining again and again, I will stop when we play start to mediocre defense again and again.
Do you think it would serve this team well if we slightly improved the defense, if, in return, the offense became less effective/efficient?
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 06, 2018, 01:37:08 PM
Do you think it would serve this team well if we slightly improved the defense, if, in return, the offense became less effective/efficient?
Yes. I think we beat UGA and X at home. A a few to come here on the road too.
I think we'd be undefeated if our opponents never scored. CMON WOJO!!!
Quote from: Sultan of Kookiness on January 06, 2018, 06:44:35 PM
I think we'd be undefeated if our opponents never scored. CMON WOJO!!!
From Wojo's suckling breast to Scoop. Great defense!
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 06, 2018, 06:54:14 PM
From Wojo's suckling breast to Scoop. Great defense!
I've stated my opinion. You ignore it.
Whatever.