Based on eye check I say yes...
Tony Smith might dispute that. And Tony had fewer teammates who could score.
I am starting to think that this team might be better than next year, unless they find a point somewhere. Do not like Howard as a point. Rowsey can do so much with
the ball and creates many openings. Next year not sure how they are going to score, Howard will have to grow up. Sure they will be stronger inside but it college is
a guard game right now.
22.5 per game could be historic not for an MU Point Guard but for MU overall. As far as I can tell, the only higher PPG was George Thompson's Junior year with 22.9 and Tony Smith's senior year with 23.8.
Tony Smith and Diener have matched or exceeded Rowsey's performance so far. They did it for an entire season. I hope Rowsey keeps up his performance and tops both of them.
But a bit premature to consider it the best MU PG season.
Quote from: DCHoopster on December 30, 2017, 06:31:13 PM
I am starting to think that this team might be better than next year, unless they find a point somewhere. Do not like Howard as a point. Rowsey can do so much with
the ball and creates many openings. Next year not sure how they are going to score, Howard will have to grow up. Sure they will be stronger inside but it college is
a guard game right now.
I agree, but I also feel that Rowsey doesn't do a great job of finding Howard. I'd love to know how many of Rowsey's assists are on Howard baskets, and how that compares with distribution to others. Not sure why it is, but it strikes me many games.
Eye define #1 guards bye far more dan just scorin', ai n?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 30, 2017, 06:42:06 PM
Eye define #1 guards bye far more dan just scorin', ai n?
Yes? I think?
Quote from: DCHoopster on December 30, 2017, 06:31:13 PM
I am starting to think that this team might be better than next year, unless they find a point somewhere.
Let's hold off on those thoughts until May. Way too early to know what the roster will look like.
Probably several other guys that might come to mind, but the little guy can shoot.
Most dominant PG performance I remember was Diener's senior year. He was a one man show and it's too bad his season ended early due to punching a tackling dummy. I seriously believe we would have made the tourney had he stayed healthy and the W. Michigan home loss NIT debacle would've never happened.
Rowsey has been great but he has a lot of talent around him. Diener put up huge numbers despite no supporting cast
Diener's senior year was 19.7ppg. Yes he was more assist oriented and was a better overall player than Rowsey, but we have Rowsey now and he's coming through in the important moments, just like Diener did - and Rowsey's supporting cast is much better than what Diener had in his last year.
Quote from: DCHoopster on December 30, 2017, 06:31:13 PM
I am starting to think that this team might be better than next year, unless they find a point somewhere. Do not like Howard as a point. Rowsey can do so much with
the ball and creates many openings. Next year not sure how they are going to score, Howard will have to grow up. Sure they will be stronger inside but it college is
a guard game right now.
Cain was helping break the press and Howard was up court with Heldt, if that doesnt give u confidence
Quote from: WarriorFan on December 30, 2017, 09:14:54 PM
Diener's senior year was 19.7ppg. Yes he was more assist oriented and was a better overall player than Rowsey, but we have Rowsey now and he's coming through in the important moments, just like Diener did - and Rowsey's supporting cast is much better than what Diener had in his last year.
Diener was hurt before he broke his hand. I think it was foot injury. I think he was averaging 24 points a game before he injured his foot.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 30, 2017, 06:42:06 PM
Eye define #1 guards bye far more dan just scorin', ai n?
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/59/d9/98/59d998c54a462dc1e6350089a7a989bb.jpg)
Quote from: mug644 on December 30, 2017, 06:41:10 PM
I agree, but I also feel that Rowsey doesn't do a great job of finding Howard. I'd love to know how many of Rowsey's assists are on Howard baskets, and how that compares with distribution to others. Not sure why it is, but it strikes me many games.
Think sometimes teams pick their poison and deny / face guard Markus makes it hard to get the ball to him
I am comfortable saying if Andrew Rowsey continues somewhere near his current pace he will have an overall season that ranks among the top 15 performances at MU. We have had some great players at MU. As far as PGs, the individual performances of guys like Dean Meminger , Dr. Lloyd Walton, and Butch Lee ( National player of the Year) are at a much different level .
So agree with Herman Cain. Rowsey is without a doubt a heck of a shooter but not close to the same PG class of Meminger, Walton and Lee. You youngins find some film and you'll easily see what we talkin about.
Quote from: Bo Ryan's Massage Therapist on December 30, 2017, 08:27:17 PM
Diener put up huge numbers despite no supporting cast
Novak, future NBA player, 13.5 ppg.
Mason, pretty good college player, 11.9 ppg, 5.6 rpg.
Chapman and Townsend, solid role players who were on FF team, 8.1 and 5.9 ppg.
Amaroso, promising (albeit frustrating) freshman, 6 ppg.
No talent?
Quote from: DCHoopster on December 30, 2017, 06:31:13 PM
I am starting to think that this team might be better than next year, unless they find a point somewhere. Do not like Howard as a point. Rowsey can do so much with
the ball and creates many openings. Next year not sure how they are going to score, Howard will have to grow up. Sure they will be stronger inside but it college is
a guard game right now.
I think this is such an interesting question. On one hand I completely agree take Rowsey away and we loose to Georgetown. It feels like we take a step back next year without him.
On the other hand, and I think highly relevant to the question of best PG ever, Rowsey does look to score first, second and third and only after that does he consider getting his teammates involved. Hey the dude can score so I get it. However, there are times were I think that we are underperforming because the rest of the team isn't in the flow of the offense and if we had a PG who got everybody involved we might be even more of an offensive power than we have been so far this year.
Quote from: Herman Cain on December 31, 2017, 09:57:47 PM
I am comfortable saying if Andrew Rowsey continues somewhere near his current pace he will have an overall season that ranks among the top 15 performances at MU. We have had some great players at MU. As far as PGs, the individual performances of guys like Dean Meminger , Dr. Lloyd Walton, and Butch Lee ( National player of the Year) are at a much different level .
Herman, none of those 3 players have the shooting ability of Rowsey. Dean had a horrible looking shot and scored most of his points inside, definitely a playmaker.
Lloyd as well. Butch was a 2 guard with Boylan being the point, Butch played 15 feet and in. The only player close to Rowsey in playing ability, was Travis Diener. Both
small guards that could shoot it. Rowsey maybe the best shooting guard behind the 3 point line ever, with Howard 2nd right now. Markus has 2 more years so he has
a chance to be as good. Right now he is forcing shoots a tad, last year he was so good as the team had more players who could score., if Cain keeps improving it will
help the whole team, which will give Markus some better looks.
Quote from: DCHoopster on January 01, 2018, 10:17:26 AM
Herman, none of those 3 players have the shooting ability of Rowsey. Dean had a horrible looking shot and scored most of his points inside, definitely a playmaker.
Lloyd as well. Butch was a 2 guard with Boylan being the point, Butch played 15 feet and in. The only player close to Rowsey in playing ability, was Travis Diener. Both
small guards that could shoot it. Rowsey maybe the best shooting guard behind the 3 point line ever, with Howard 2nd right now. Markus has 2 more years so he has
a chance to be as good. Right now he is forcing shoots a tad, last year he was so good as the team had more players who could score., if Cain keeps improving it will
help the whole team, which will give Markus some better looks.
O------M------G. Now I will acknowledge that AR may be the best pure
shooting PG we've had off the top of my head. But please, please don't compare him to the great guards that have flourished with Marquette.
Quote from: Wojo's Whiteboard on January 01, 2018, 09:41:58 AM
I think this is such an interesting question. On one hand I completely agree take Rowsey away and we loose to Georgetown. It feels like we take a step back next year without him.
On the other hand, and I think highly relevant to the question of best PG ever, Rowsey does look to score first, second and third and only after that does he consider getting his teammates involved. Hey the dude can score so I get it. However, there are times were I think that we are underperforming because the rest of the team isn't in the flow of the offense and if we had a PG who got everybody involved we might be even more of an offensive power than we have been so far this year.
I agree with this analysis
The OP post asked if AR is having the "best MU offensive PG season ever."
Few have answered that question as, in typical Scoop fashion, we have gone off in other directions (myself included).
So far, his season certainly is among the top few offensive performances ever for a Marquette PG, I think most of us would agree to that. If he stays at this pace, he will have the second-highest scoring average ever for an MU point guard (behind Tony Smith's 23.8), so that alone has to rank him high in this discussion.
A lot will depend upon how folks value shooting and/or scoring from the position vs. being a team's facilitator (making teammates better).
Rowsey is averaging 22.4 ppg, 4.1 A (vs 3.1 TO) and shooting .466-.450-.891.
In 1989-90, Smith averaged 23.8 ppg, 5.8 A (vs 3.9 TO) and shot .494-.414-.856.
In his injury-shortened (23 games) 2004-05 season, Diener averaged 19.7 ppg, 7.0 A (vs 2.5 TO) and shot .420-.405-.838.
For our 28-1 team in 1970-71, Dean averaged 21.2 ppg, 3.6A and shot .509-.736 (no 3s obviously).
Those seasons by Smith, Diener and Dean were the only ones in which the PG scored anywhere near Rowsey's 22.4 ppg. So one would really have to highly value Walton's floor game to say he was in the same offensive discussion.
Right now, gun at my head, I'd have to go Smith, Diener, Rowsey, Dean as the answer to the question.
I was surprised by Dean's relatively low assist total, and I wonder if official scorers were stingier with assists back then.
I don't remember seeing him play for Marquette (I was only 10 when he was a senior, but I was a big Knicks fan and I loved him). So I can't speak to how he directed the MU offense overall. I do know he was a hell of a defender and leader, so I very well might take a "Dean in his MU prime" over any of the others.
Quote from: MU82 on January 01, 2018, 01:03:55 PM
Rowsey is averaging 22.4 ppg, 4.1 A (vs 3.1 TO) and shooting .466-.450-.891.
In 1989-90, Smith averaged 23.8 ppg, 5.8 A (vs 3.9 TO) and shot .494-.414-.856.
In his injury-shortened (23 games) 2004-05 season, Diener averaged 19.7 ppg, 7.0 A (vs 2.5 TO) and shot .420-.405-.838.
For our 28-1 team in 1970-71, Dean averaged 21.2 ppg, 3.6A and shot .509-.736 (no 3s obviously).
Good that you included 3FG% for Rowsey, Smith and Diener, but important to remember that they had significantly different splits (2FGA vs. 3FGA)... Rowsey the highest 3FGA/FGA.. Diener in the middle, and Smith wasn't a frequent deep threat...
So, when you get to what matters, eFG%... you're talking:
Rowsey 60.7%
Smith 53.2%
Diener 52.9%
Big difference, a1na? (Should note D-I eFG% is ~1.5% better today than it was in 2004-05)
Quote from: MU82 on January 01, 2018, 01:03:55 PM
The OP post asked if AR is having the "best MU offensive PG season ever."
Few have answered that question as, in typical Scoop fashion, we have gone off in other directions (myself included).
So far, his season certainly is among the top few offensive performances ever for a Marquette PG, I think most of us would agree to that. If he stays at this pace, he will have the second-highest scoring average ever for an MU point guard (behind Tony Smith's 23.8), so that alone has to rank him high in this discussion.
A lot will depend upon how folks value shooting and/or scoring from the position vs. being a team's facilitator (making teammates better).
Rowsey is averaging 22.4 ppg, 4.1 A (vs 3.1 TO) and shooting .466-.450-.891.
In 1989-90, Smith averaged 23.8 ppg, 5.8 A (vs 3.9 TO) and shot .494-.414-.856.
In his injury-shortened (23 games) 2004-05 season, Diener averaged 19.7 ppg, 7.0 A (vs 2.5 TO) and shot .420-.405-.838.
For our 28-1 team in 1970-71, Dean averaged 21.2 ppg, 3.6A and shot .509-.736 (no 3s obviously).
Those seasons by Smith, Diener and Dean were the only ones in which the PG scored anywhere near Rowsey's 22.4 ppg. So one would really have to highly value Walton's floor game to say he was in the same offensive discussion.
Right now, gun at my head, I'd have to go Smith, Diener, Rowsey, Dean as the answer to the question.
I was surprised by Dean's relatively low assist total, and I wonder if official scorers were stingier with assists back then.
I don't remember seeing him play for Marquette (I was only 10 when he was a senior, but I was a big Knicks fan and I loved him). So I can't speak to how he directed the MU offense overall. I do know he was a hell of a defender and leader, so I very well might take a "Dean in his MU prime" over any of the others.
If Rowsey's numbers continue let's remember he will have played a more difficult schedule than Smith and probably a more difficult schedule than Diener as well. I am not necessarily advocating that Rowsey will have had the best offensive season as a point but when you look at some of the competition they have had to face hard to compare strict statistics.
HM to Hutch, whose first 10 games before he got hurt in '97-98 were All-American worthy.
Andrew Rowsey is a very good shooter and scorer. I am not sure I would put his performance so far in the same league as the other names mentioned in this thread, as they were far more complete players offensively who got others involved. Rowsey has the potential to be a very good distributor of the ball when he wants to.
If Rowsey played in a more balanced fashion I think his points would go down and his assists would go up. Yet he would still be a very strong offensive performer. The Vermont game is a good example of this. He played under more control and had 13 points and 10 assists and Markus ended up with 34.
In the greater scheme of things , Rowsey is a very entertaining player and I am glad he transferred to MU.
Got to remember the introduction of the three point shot changed offense. Hard to compare players prior to after think what Thompson, Lee etc. could have done with the 3 point shot.
Rowsey can't load Dean's, Lloyd's, JB's, Sam's, Hutch's, Tony's, or Travis' jockstrap. Plus, he's a punk, ai na?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 01, 2018, 05:38:21 PM
Rowsey can't load Dean's, Lloyd's, JB's, Sam's, Hutch's, Tony's, or Travis' jockstrap. Plus, he's a punk, ai na?
Rowsey is a great shooter and a really good offensive player, but you're right, Doc - he's not as good as any of those guys.
Lotsa good points made here, especially by JB (eFG%), Dano (schedule), Eagle (Rowsey not assister), News (trey effect) and 4ever (other great PGs).
We've been fortunate to have some great ones, even if they didn't score like Rowsey!
People forget that Rowsey is a shooting guard who is learning to play point. I think he has showed a lot of improvement at point over the last few games. They are comparing him to the greatest true point guards in MU history. Is he as good a point guard as those players? No, but why use those comparisons to diminish Rowsey's game? None of those point guards scored 30 points in a Big East game.
Quote from: DCHoopster on December 30, 2017, 06:31:13 PM
I am starting to think that this team might be better than next year, unless they find a point somewhere. Do not like Howard as a point. Rowsey can do so much with
the ball and creates many openings. Next year not sure how they are going to score, Howard will have to grow up. Sure they will be stronger inside but it college is
a guard game right now.
Next years team would be better with Rowsey on it then it will be without him obviously.
But next years team is definitely gonna be better then this years.
And if we do find a PG it could be way better.
Far more experience. Loads of size. Loads of options.
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on January 01, 2018, 10:36:19 PM
Next years team would be better with Rowsey on it then it will be without him obviously.
But next years team is definitely gonna be better then this years.
And if we do find a PG it could be way better.
Far more experience. Loads of size. Loads of options.
With the many scoring options and height that next year's team will have, it would be perfect for a Lucky Lloyd kinda PG. Control the flow, beat pressure, look to set up others first, score when necessary. Would be even better if he could be a little taller so he could D up taller guards, too.
Is that guy out there as a grad transfer and can we get him?
Quote from: UNC Eagle on January 01, 2018, 03:40:55 PMI am not sure I would put his performance so far in the same league as the other names mentioned in this thread, as they were far more complete players offensively who got others involved. Rowsey has the potential to be a very good distributor of the ball when he wants to.
Rowsey has a 27.3 assist rate. That's 6th in the Big East. He's averaging 4.1 apg. Can we please stop this false narrative that he doesn't get others involved?
Quote from: MU82 on January 01, 2018, 10:52:54 PM
With the many scoring options and height that next year's team will have, it would be perfect for a Lucky Lloyd kinda PG. Control the flow, beat pressure, look to set up others first, score when necessary. Would be even better if he could be a little taller so he could D up taller guards, too.
Is that guy out there as a grad transfer and can we get him?
Or could they maybe go JUCO to get one. No idea on the level of competition, but Ricky Torres for Missouri State-West Plains is a potent passer and shooter. From his videos looks to be long, athletic and has a solid handle.
Rowsey is a diminutive SG who looks like he should be playing PG.
Diener was a PG who can score.
Hutch was the same.
The latter two looked to set up their teammates first and run the offense while AR happily takes any good look.
Though AR leads the team in APG, Howard is a more natural PG who sets up his teammate.
It seems like a good number of AR's assists occur when he's in scoring mode.
It's really moot though trying to differentiate if he is a PG or SG as he is having one of the best offensive GUARD seasons in MU history.
While looking to score first, second and then third, he is managing to lead the team in assists.
Not sure if Markus could be a true point (suspect handle). Would feel more comfortable with a decent grad transfer, although if Woj landed a boffo frosh I wouldn't complain.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 01, 2018, 11:05:24 PM
Rowsey has a 27.3 assist rate. That's 6th in the Big East. He's averaging 4.1 apg. Can we please stop this false narrative that he doesn't get others involved?
This. And with an eFG% of 60.7%, Rowsey should be looking to score first, second and third. All that while using almost 40% more possessions than a year ago. Incredibly efficient offense. If he can cut down on the turnovers a bit — look out.
Let's not try to convert AR into something he's not. While hero ball and turnovers didn't work and Wojo got on him, he is most certainly a shoot first PG. Exactly as he should be. A good, in rhythm Rowsey 3 is perhaps our very highest eFG% shot.
People for some reason don't like PGs that look for their own shot first. Even though they may be the best shooter on the team. Really against Georgetown, did you really want him to shoot less? Why?
Look he isn't Travis Diener - there is no doubt about that. But he's on par with Hutch right now. Go look at Hutch's stats and tell me how "he got others involved" and then claim that Rowsey doesn't.
Rowsey is definitely a shoot-first point guard. That's pretty indisputable. But anyone pretending he doesn't also provide for others is either being willfully ignorant or deliberately dishonest. The numbers simply don't support that fallacy. Yes, he takes more shots than assists provided, but no one on this team is producing more assists than he is or doing it at a higher rate, and very few players in the league are either.
It also matters who you are teamed with. Our all-time assist leader had McIllvanie, Key, Eford and Anglavar to pass to. All four players could make a basket. Essentially Rowsey only has Markus and Sam to pass to. I am just listing starters.
Dean M. was a great driver, passer and defensive player with no outside shot. Andrew is one of the best outside shooters ever at MU but no where close to Dean on defense, ball handling or passing. Having said that, the competition day in and day out is at a higher level today than in Dean's day.
I still would go with "The Dream" but we are fortunate to have Rowsey. He is one tough guy that shoots lights out.
Quote from: mileskishnish72 on January 02, 2018, 07:02:33 AM
While looking to score first, second and then third, he is managing to lead the team in assists.
Not sure if Markus could be a true point (suspect handle). Would feel more comfortable with a decent grad transfer, although if Woj landed a boffo frosh I wouldn't complain.
Coming into this season, I thought Markus could be a decent PG.
We now know he can't - not unless he improves his ballhandling and decision-making significantly.
That also will keep him from playing at the next level. How many sub-6-foot shooting guards who are mediocre ballhandlers have there been in NBA history?
Guys do improve. I hope Markus can improve there.
I conclude Yes.