MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: tower912 on November 28, 2017, 07:39:30 AM
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There is no getting around the fact that Haanif's decision has negatively impacted the prospects for the rest of the year. There wasn't enough size, depth or experience before. This has exacerbated the problem. I know longer think this is a bubble team. Counting on 3 freshmen to make significant contributions is asking for disappointment.
If Wojo somehow gets this team to the tourney, any questions about his ability will be put to rest. And recruit more guards.
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It's not a recruiting issue, it's a player management issue. If 2 of the recent transfers were still on the team (Duane, Cheatham, Carter) there would great depth. Marquette seems to be perpetually young. I'm sure it's an issue for many programs, but Marquette has a serious problem keeping roll players around for 4 years. I think Cain, Eke & Elliot being 3 star kids should help buck the trend.
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It's not a recruiting issue, it's a player management issue. If 2 of the recent transfers were still on the team (Duane, Cheatham, Carter) there would great depth. Marquette seems to be perpetually young. I'm sure it's an issue for many programs, but Marquette has a serious problem keeping roll players around for 4 years. I think Cain, Eke & Elliot being 3 star kids should help buck the trend.
I wonder how much of this is related to the lack of recent NCAA success. It's one thing to find out your are a role player on a team that expects to go to the NCAA tourney every year -- completely another with our recent track record.
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There is no getting around the fact that Haanif's decision has negatively impacted the prospects for the rest of the year. There wasn't enough size, depth or experience before. This has exacerbated the problem. I know longer think this is a bubble team. Counting on 3 freshmen to make significant contributions is asking for disappointment.
If Wojo somehow gets this team to the tourney, any questions about his ability will be put to rest. And recruit more guards.
We looked terrible last night, but there was not enough time to adjust practice / strategy. I’m sure the announcement hurt team mood. Hope we can hold what’s left of OOC to 1 or 2 losses and then see what Froling brings. Unfortunately we took a big hit with HC’s transfer.
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To borrow from Donald Rumsfeld, MU is going to do battle with the team we have, not the team we wish we had. Take a long, objective look at the size, experience, and talent level of this team. Adjust your expectations accordingly.
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Tower
It very likely will be a very long season. I look forward to reading about the starting lineups two years down the road. My favorite is when the projected depth charts by position get brought to our attention.
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Greg & Harry come through; Jamal & Sacar give more; Matt does more... and we can be in.
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All good points, I just don't see us being a tourney team this year. Consistently being young and typically short on role players is getting tiring.
I expect big things next year with this roster and adding Froling, little Hauser, and Morrow...as in consistently a top 20 team and making it to the 2nd weekend of the tourney. If we fall short of that it will be time to heat up Wojo's seat, will be year 5 by then and the mediocrity will start getting to me. I really hope after this year the trajectory for Wojo and the program begins to go up.
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Depth took a hit. Would Haanif have stopped that debacle last night? Who knows. But that's a steady guy, and another capable defender you could have thrown at Starks.
The staff also needs to scrap high ball pressure and blitzing the screens with the bigs. First, because it's not working, and second, because it expends a ton of energy with no return. With Elliott and Cain you have enough length to still be disruptive playing a more compact defense.
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The staff also needs to scrap high ball pressure and blitzing the screens with the bigs. First, because it's not working, and second, because it expends a ton of energy with no return. With Elliott and Cain you have enough length to still be disruptive playing a more compact defense.
I think this is a great point. We're running our bigs all over the place and not getting anything out of it, except for tired guys. I'd like to see some changes here too.
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My preseason pick for us was playing in Dayton as part of the last four in. Without HC it looks more like an NIT berth. We'll know a lot more after the OOC
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It's not a recruiting issue, it's a player management issue. If 2 of the recent transfers were still on the team (Duane, Cheatham, Carter) there would great depth. Marquette seems to be perpetually young. I'm sure it's an issue for many programs, but Marquette has a serious problem keeping roll players around for 4 years. I think Cain, Eke & Elliot being 3 star kids should help buck the trend.
So you think Wojo has mismanaged Duane, Carter, and Cheatham? I don't think any of those guys did anything to secure a starting spot for MU. Wojo better be recruiting guys to take minutes away from those types of players or else MU is in trouble.
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No doubt about it, losing an upperclassmen wing that's shown well on the defensive side of the ball is a loss. BUT Sacar can play, he's definitely got the size and - yes Hannif was getting better at attacking early this year - I think Sacar is the more confident player. I'm rolling with Sacar in a dog fight over Hannif every day. I think the Sacar we're watching now will look worlds different in a month or two.
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I never had high expectations for this season. Three frosh, 4 sophs and only two upper classman do not make for a consistently winning team. Greg and Sacar are the only two players that are quick enough to play decent defense. I look forward to seeing them develop into very good players that will make Sam, Joey and Markus into great players. I am also sad to see Haanif leave, but just from the "eye test" when Sacar drives to the basket he gets above the rim and his shot has a good chance of going into the basket whereas Haani's drives were a source of much frustration. My "eye test" however may not match the stats. The loss of Haani may have affected the team last night; just have to wait and see.
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Give it a few games. They need to adjust. They have the talent to do it, they just need the time.
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Greg & Harry come through; Jamal & Sacar give more; Matt does more... and we can be in.
This, plus I think we found a new offense last night.
Run it through Hauser on the high post. Get him a touch, or have him screen the ball and roll or pop out for 3 on nearly every possession. It will get him better shots, and will take some focus off Rowsey & Howard so they can get better shots.
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This, plus I think we found a new offense last night.
Run it through Hauser on the high post. Get him a touch, or have him screen the ball and roll or pop out for 3 on nearly every possession. It will get him better shots, and will take some focus off Rowsey & Howard so they can get better shots.
No to overstate the obvious, what we really need to find is a new defense.
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The waiting has been excruciating. It’s taking much longer than most had anticipated to get back to relevancy. In regards to D, Wojo has talked about it since day 1. At what point do we consider that he either can’t coach it or recruit the players who are willing to play it?
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No to overstate the obvious, what we really need to find is a new defense.
Ha true, but painful scoring droughts have hurt us this year as well. Plus it helps the D to play after a made basket, kinda symbiotic that way.
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If the freshman and froling can't step up we won't be playing postseason basketball
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All good points, I just don't see us being a tourney team this year. Consistently being young and typically short on role players is getting tiring.
I expect big things next year with this roster and adding Froling, little Hauser, and Morrow...as in consistently a top 20 team and making it to the 2nd weekend of the tourney. If we fall short of that it will be time to heat up Wojo's seat, will be year 5 by then and the mediocrity will start getting to me. I really hope after this year the trajectory for Wojo and the program begins to go up.
Completely agree. I get that most schools have transfers. But it seems like every year all we talk about is how good we will be when these guys get older, but it never seems to happen.
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You guys need to settle down lol we lost to .500 UW-Green Bay the year we made it to the Elite 8. Every team can have a bad game and we had our worst of the year last night and still won. We will probably struggle a bit for the next month but I am confident Froling will help the offensive/defensive paint presence issue. Greg Elliott stepped up across the board last night.
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Not sure where this is coming from?
Everyone seems to believe hanni was the savior of MU basketball or something.
Nice player, but by no means have my expectations of the NCAA tournament berth changed. I won't miss Hanni continuously getting stuffed at the rim each game. His offense was subpar. No right hand finish, and could hit the open 3 once in a while.
Elliot has shown me he's much better defensively and Anim can make up for the loss of Hanni's offensive production.
I hope we'll for the young man, but I think this could be a good thing. Freshman getting a lot of run and contributing early.
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There is no getting around the fact that Haanif's decision has negatively impacted the prospects for the rest of the year. There wasn't enough size, depth or experience before. This has exacerbated the problem. I know longer think this is a bubble team. Counting on 3 freshmen to make significant contributions is asking for disappointment.
If Wojo somehow gets this team to the tourney, any questions about his ability will be put to rest. And recruit more guards.
Qwit being a crybaby tower, we win a close game against a good mid major with a couple highmajor players after traveling multiple time zones and it was the same day a leader anniunced he was leaving tge program. They showed great stones and won the game, collectively sacar and elliott played as well or better than cheatham has been playing and we won the game. Anyone who felt this team wouldnt win some we shouldnt n lose some we shouldnt needs to have hus head examined. Terrible post.
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So you think Wojo has mismanaged Duane, Carter, and Cheatham? I don't think any of those guys did anything to secure a starting spot for MU. Wojo better be recruiting guys to take minutes away from those types of players or else MU is in trouble.
Hard to say. I don't pay attention to other teams and their transfers, do players that are actually playing significant minutes transfer from Creighton, Butler, etc.? Maybe it's a matter of being featured, but Duane went to a better team in Texas and is playing similar minutes. Steve Taylor. Gabe Levin. Sandy Cohen. Traci Carter. Duane Wilson. Haanif Cheatham. First two guys had a coaching change so I can forgive that. But all these guys were, or would have gotten, major minutes. Would Cohen be ahead of Cain? I think so. Duane would have been ahead of Elliott. Part of the coach's job is to get kids to buy in, obviously the role players aren't.
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Tower
It very likely will be a very long season. I look forward to reading about the starting lineups two years down the road. My favorite is when the projected depth charts by position get brought to our attention.
Thank you for not accepting mediocrity. Winning teams find ways to win, losing teams make excuses.
I am a bit more optimistic for the this season and beyond then you or Tower seem to be. Even good teams struggle at times, let it play out over the course of the season, then decide.
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You guys need to settle down lol we lost to .500 UW-Green Bay the year we made it to the Elite 8. Every team can have a bad game and we had our worst of the year last night and still won. We will probably struggle a bit for the next month but I am confident Froling will help the offensive/defensive paint presence issue. Greg Elliott stepped up across the board last night.
agree with the positive spin on this. This is where coaches need to step up. One less significant player...young and short. Coaches do your thing.
And you can start with teaching Heldt to handle the high screen! He was out of position and lost so many times...I wondered why they didnt feed wide open Duma (Dama?) more after the pick and roll.
I like Heldt, real positive...but he's got handle the high pick and roll second nature rather than like he's trying to remember what the coach said...and we need to rotate when he does go up.
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Hard to say. I don't pay attention to other teams and their transfers, do players that are actually playing significant minutes transfer from Creighton, Butler, etc.? Maybe it's a matter of being featured, but Duane went to a better team in Texas and is playing similar minutes. Steve Taylor. Gabe Levin. Sandy Cohen. Traci Carter. Duane Wilson. Haanif Cheatham. First two guys had a coaching change so I can forgive that. But all these guys were, or would have gotten, major minutes. Would Cohen be ahead of Cain? I think so. Duane would have been ahead of Elliott. Part of the coach's job is to get kids to buy in, obviously the role players aren't.
I think u are reaching on how good and how much time tracy and cohen would have received. Cohen would be behind cain n elliott as a senior and would not have seen the court as a junior.
Traci as a senior would be behind howard and rowsey. They only get 4 years when they see the writing on the wall you cannot blame them fir wanting to play.
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One thing I wonder about is if Wojo struggles to please the masses. Maybe he is simply a no BS guy that speaks his mind when he is approached by a player upset about his situation, playing time, whatever. In some regards, I like that. But perhaps he needs to be a little better at managing the players.
Transfers are a way of the game. I get that. But 5 mid-season transfers over the past few years hurts. I have no doubt that Wojo at least tried to keep Haanif and Traci around, but it just seems like you should be able to convince a guy like HC that a mid-year transfer in his situation is a terrible decision for all parties.
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I am still confident of our success this season. Sam, Markus and Rowsey are consistently combining for 60 points. In the greater scheme of things most teams cannot lay claim to that kind of firepower. The rest of the team has to show up and hustle. I have been a big fan of Greg Elliott and I believe he will meet the challenge and make the most of his opportunity.
My assumption above also incorporates no change in Froling. My guess is Froling will come out strong against the two cupcakes and then have some challenges in the Big East ; however, his net contribution will be positive. I see the Big 3 getting more clean looks as a result of Froling being a viable offensive threat.
3rd in Big East and make it to second weekend of tournament.
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3rd in Big East and make it to second weekend of tournament.
You could just make this your signature to cut down on typing.
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I never had high expectations for this season. Three frosh, 4 sophs and only two upper classman do not make for a consistently winning team. Greg and Sacar are the only two players that are quick enough to play decent defense. I look forward to seeing them develop into very good players that will make Sam, Joey and Markus into great players. I am also sad to see Haanif leave, but just from the "eye test" when Sacar drives to the basket he gets above the rim and his shot has a good chance of going into the basket whereas Haani's drives were a source of much frustration. My "eye test" however may not match the stats. The loss of Haani may have affected the team last night; just have to wait and see.
+1000
I do think Haani leaving psychologically had an effect on the team last night. The team did not seem ready to play. Heldt did not even jump for the jump ball. Once Froling is eligible, I believe Haani's role would of significantly diminished as Sam will start at small forward.
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The only jump ball Matty has won all year was the faux toss by the official versus WSU on the third try. Other than hockey, I have never seen a ref pump fake so much.
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We got this.
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I am still confident of our success this season. Sam, Markus and Rowsey are consistently combining for 60 points. In the greater scheme of things most teams cannot lay claim to that kind of firepower.
If by "consistently" you mean in 4 of 6 games.
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Not sure where this is coming from?
Everyone seems to believe hanni was the savior of MU basketball or something.
Nice player, but by no means have my expectations of the NCAA tournament berth changed. I won't miss Hanni continuously getting stuffed at the rim each game. His offense was subpar. No right hand finish, and could hit the open 3 once in a while.
Elliot has shown me he's much better defensively and Anim can make up for the loss of Hanni's offensive production.
I hope we'll for the young man, but I think this could be a good thing. Freshman getting a lot of run and contributing early.
thank you!
there have been numerous other posts accusing others of trying to draw conclusions on so little data. i like haanif, and wish him nothing but the best, but regardless of his box score contributions, i felt he had the moxy and calm demeanor to be a nice leader. well that is gone and it presented elliot with an opportunity to show us what he has probably a little sooner rather than later. this might just work out a little different than expected and i believe wojo will get er done
but he has to scrap that high post chase as one pointed out here previously-only bad things can happen from that strategy over the long term. we don't need anymore ways to get mathew into foul trouble
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This thread disappoints me. At its heart is a bunch of backward thinking that every transfer is a strike against the program. How about the incoming kids?
Out
Traci Carter
Duane Wilson
Hannif Cheatam
Sandy Cohen
In
Andrew Rowsey
Katin Reinhardt
Harry Froling
Ed Morrow
Question ... which is the better list of players? Out or In?
Hands down it is In. The massive amount of transfers in college sports (and basketball in particular) is a net positive for MU. Root for more transfers as we get better, not worse, because of it.
So, change your Depends and update your thinking ... you should expect at least 1 transfer a semester. And don't be shocked if we have another one before school starts in January. And, also expect Wojo to get a better player in return.
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The only jump ball Matty has won all year was the faux toss by the official versus WSU on the third try. Other than hockey, I have never seen a ref pump fake so much.
He's deferring for the second half kickoff.
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It's not a recruiting issue, it's a player management issue. If 2 of the recent transfers were still on the team (Duane, Cheatham, Carter) there would great depth. Marquette seems to be perpetually young.
This is so true. Wojo and staff have a player retention issue. Wojo is an excellent recruiter. I don't know how exactly he does it but he does. Nobody on this board would deny that. But by the same token he has a real problem keeping guys that aren't in his starting 5. Why does he have this problem. I don't know. Maybe guys are promised to much going in. Maybe promises he is making to recruits leak to the team. Maybe the communication is not good or the assistants aren't able to act as an advocate for players that feel they are out of favor.
I believe Wojo when he says that he is sorry to see Haanif leave. I even believe he tried (somewhat) to talk him into staying. The problem is that these guys come to feel that they don't want to be here any more and by the time it gets to that point its too late to talk the guy out of leaving.
I can't help but feel that some of this may be the "Duke Arrogance". The idea that We're the best and if you don't fit in that is your problem. I don't know what it is but I know that MU will not be able to even reach the success Buzz achieved if all of our seasoned players leave as soon as they stop being in the starting 5. For a team at MU's level you win with upper classmen and they can't all be graduate transfers.
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This is so true. Wojo and staff have a player retention issue. Wojo is an excellent recruiter. I don't know how exactly he does it but he does. Nobody on this board would deny that. But by the same token he has a real problem keeping guys that aren't in his starting 5. Why does he have this problem. I don't know. Maybe guys are promised to much going in. Maybe promises he is making to recruits leak to the team. Maybe the communication is not good or the assistants aren't able to act as an advocate for players that feel they are out of favor.
I believe Wojo when he says that he is sorry to see Haanif leave. I even believe he tried (somewhat) to talk him into staying. The problem is that these guys come to feel that they don't want to be here any more and by the time it gets to that point its too late to talk the guy out of leaving.
I can't help but feel that some of this may be the "Duke Arrogance". The idea that We're the best and if you don't fit in that is your problem. I don't know what it is but I know that MU will not be able to even reach the success Buzz achieved if all of our seasoned players leave as soon as they stop being in the starting 5. For a team at MU's level you win with upper classmen and they can't all be graduate transfers.
This is so wrong ... or this is true at all 300+ D1 basketball schools. MU is "normal", not unique.
Please read this ... then read it again.
College basketball transfers aren't new, but players and coaches cope with increase
Nov. 7, 2017
https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/2017/11/07/college-basketball-transfers-arent-new-but-players-and-coaches-cope-increase/686784001/
According to the NCAA, about 40 percent of Division I players leave their first school by end of sophomore year. Percentage of players transferring from one four-year school to another increased from 9.4 in 2003-04 to 13.8 in 2013-14, according to Sports Illustrated and the NCAA. That represents a 47 percent increase. The figure dipped slightly last year.
The rest of the article is pretty good.
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+1000
I do think Haani leaving psychologically had an effect on the team last night. The team did not seem ready to play. Heldt did not even jump for the jump ball. Once Froling is eligible, I believe Haani's role would of significantly diminished as Sam will start at small forward.
Haani wanting to be "the man" means that he may have indeed been "leaving psychologically" for awhile, lol. I like your double entendre.
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We made the NCAA with the 3 amigos as Freshman and it was one of the most exciting years ever in MU BB history. Tell me no one remembers the excitement and electricity of MU knocking off no. 2 rated UCONN for our inaugural BEAST game. I am so looking forward to the rest of the season. I see a more than half full glass. How about when Burton or Maymon left the team we were all but ready to throw in the season then too and MU came back and became more resilient than ever. Get fired up MU!
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We made the NCAA with the 3 amigos as Freshman and it was one of the most exciting years ever in MU BB history. Tell me no one remembers the excitement and electricity of MU knocking off no. 2 rated UCONN for our inaugural BEAST game. I am so looking forward to the rest of the season. I see a more than half full glass. How about when Burton or Maymon left the team we were all but ready to throw in the season then too and MU came back and became more resilient than ever. Get fired up MU!
When burton left we had the worst season in 50+ years of MUBB
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Not sure where this is coming from?
Everyone seems to believe hanni was the savior of MU basketball or something.
Nice player, but by no means have my expectations of the NCAA tournament berth changed. I won't miss Hanni continuously getting stuffed at the rim each game. His offense was subpar. No right hand finish, and could hit the open 3 once in a while.
Elliot has shown me he's much better defensively and Anim can make up for the loss of Hanni's offensive production.
I hope we'll for the young man, but I think this could be a good thing. Freshman getting a lot of run and contributing early.
You said it well. Reality hurts sometimes but Hanif was playing his way deeper into the bench.
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i like haanif, and wish him nothing but the best, but regardless of his box score contributions, i felt he had the moxy and calm demeanor to be a nice leader. well that is gone and it presented elliot with an opportunity to show us what he has probably a little sooner rather than later.
This pretty well summarizes how I feel about it. I wish he hadn't transferred...but he did. The silver lining is that it will allow other players to get more experience earlier. Hopefully, they have higher ceilings than Haanif and we'll come out ahead in the long run.
Next man up.
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When burton left we had the worst season in 50+ years of MUBB
Well, I mean, uhh, yeah, there's that, but...
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Haanif wasn't a savior. He was a competent junior with size and a willingness to play defense on a team lacking all 3 of those characteristics that is now short of bodies. Next man up. It is possible that everybody steps up. For my sanity, I will be watching the rest of the season with a different set of expectations.
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When burton left we had the worst season in 50+ years of MUBB
I get the general point but just to be a stickler:
in '14-'15 we were 13-19 in the Big East
in '88-'89 we were 13-15 as an independent and an easier schedule
in '87-'88 we were 10-19 as an independent and an easier schedule
No question though 2014-15 was one of our worst seasons in 50 years as a program.
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in '88-'89 we were 13-15 as an independent and an easier schedule
in '87-'88 we were 10-19 as an independent and an easier schedule
Ahhhh...the glory days of my time at Marquette. It's a wonder I'm a fan. Like steel forged in fire, I suppose.
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+1000
I do think Haani leaving psychologically had an effect on the team last night. The team did not seem ready to play. Heldt did not even jump for the jump ball. Once Froling is eligible, I believe Haani's role would of significantly diminished as Sam will start at small forward.
MH didn’t even get up on the jump ball because he wasn’t ready to play........because HC left the team??
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You said it well. Reality hurts sometimes but Hanif was playing his way deeper into the bench.
Exactly—wasn’t there a scooper who kept clammering on about this being HCs breakout year, and how he was undervalued and we would all see......?
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I get the general point but just to be a stickler:
in '14-'15 we were 13-19 in the Big East
in '88-'89 we were 13-15 as an independent and an easier schedule
in '87-'88 we were 10-19 as an independent and an easier schedule
No question though 2014-15 was one of our worst seasons in 50 years as a program.
Fair enough, call it an even 20?
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MH didn’t even get up on the jump ball because he wasn’t ready to play........because HC left the team??
When I was in high school, after I shook hands with the opposing center, the referee said, "OK, guys, I'm going to count 1, 2, 3 and toss the ball. Got it?"
Two seconds later, he stepped between us, looked at us and tossed the ball without counting. Neither of us jumped. Had to be the weirdest looking opening jump ball ever.
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I haven't changed my expectations with Cheatham's departure. I viewed us as a bubble team at the start and still do. Losing Cheatham hurts from a numbers perspective but his contribution is replaceable. Using Goose's eye test method, I felt Anim was closing the gap on Cheatham already. Anim is stronger with an extra 15 lbs of muscle and a more explosive leaper.
And the advanced stats support my eye test. So far this year:
Anim vs Cheatham
O-Rating
119.3 vs 96.3
D-Rating
113.3 vs 113.2
USG%
13.4 vs 18.6
eFG%
.468 vs .500
TRB%
8.4 vs 7.0
AST%
11.9 vs 9.9
STL%
2.3 vs 2.2
BLK%
0.7 vs 0.0
TOV%
7.6 vs 16.6
PER
12.9 vs 10.4
So Sacar is better or equal to Cheatham in almost every advanced metric. Anim is deserving of more minutes.
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I haven't changed my expectations with Cheatham's departure. I viewed us as a bubble team at the start and still do. Losing Cheatham hurts from a numbers perspective but his contribution is replaceable. Using Goose's eye test method, I felt Anim was closing the gap on Cheatham already. Anim is stronger with an extra 15 lbs of muscle and a more explosive leaper.
And the advanced stats support my eye test.
So Sacar is better or equal to Cheatham in almost every advanced metric. Anim is deserving of more minutes.
I think the issue is throughout an entire season various things occur: injuries (even if just within a game), foul trouble, players just having off games, etc..
There is no question Anim is a better defender. Like you posted, he is perhaps becoming a better offensive player too. The question is depth which we lost. I think it costs us at least one game this year. That one game could cost us a tourney bid.
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I think the issue is throughout an entire season various things occur: injuries (even if just within a game), foul trouble, players just having off games, etc..
There is no question Anim is a better defender. Like you posted, he is perhaps becoming a better offensive player too. The question is depth which we lost. I think it costs us at least one game this year. That one game could cost us a tourney bid.
It's the ripple effect. Losing Cheatham requires greater contribution from Elliott and Cain. That'll require them to grow up quickly. And we sure as heck can't have a backcourt injury. On Monday I stopped watching the game and turned my complete attention to Markus on the bike.
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This thread disappoints me. At its heart is a bunch of backward thinking that every transfer is a strike against the program. How about the incoming kids?
Out
Traci Carter
Duane Wilson
Hannif Cheatam
Sandy Cohen
In
Andrew Rowsey
Katin Reinhardt
Harry Froling
Ed Morrow
Question ... which is the better list of players? Out or In?
Hands down it is In. The massive amount of transfers in college sports (and basketball in particular) is a net positive for MU. Root for more transfers as we get better, not worse, because of it.
So, change your Depends and update your thinking ... you should expect at least 1 transfer a semester. And don't be shocked if we have another one before school starts in January. And, also expect Wojo to get a better player in return.
I completely agree that the view of every transfer as a mark on the program, only looking at the loss column vs the additions, and not accepting that this is the way CBB has been and will be is confounding.
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When I was in high school, after I shook hands with the opposing center, the referee said, "OK, guys, I'm going to count 1, 2, 3 and toss the ball. Got it?"
Two seconds later, he stepped between us, looked at us and tossed the ball without counting. Neither of us jumped. Had to be the weirdest looking opening jump ball ever.
One of my favorite "weird memories" from all of my years going to Bulls games was the first game after the lockout ended in Jan 1999. It also was the first game of the post-Michael, post-Scottie, post-Phil, post-relevance era.
Wennington, always a good talker, is handed the microphone at midcourt to say a few words to fans. He apologized in advance for what the fans would see that season. Then, after vowing that the players would work hard to make Bulls fans proud, he didn't even bother jumping for the opening tip. Indiana got it and scored ... and it all went downhill from there.
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So Sacar is better or equal to Cheatham in almost every advanced metric. Anim is deserving of more minutes.
To some extent, numbers don't lie, but on the other hand, do statistics always represent what's really going on on the floor? They certainly don't capture what happens in the locker room, the practice gym, the weight room, etc. Sacar is playing well and will probably do a good job of filling the the role HC had on the floor, but losing an experienced guy will always hurt the team, unfortunately. Even though we have some good young guys, I'll always take a veteran with experience to lead a team, even if he's not the best player on the court. This loss hurts, but it may not be so easily quantified.
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Everything is building for a very competitive team next year, not saying they can not be be good this year, but Hanif might have seen his minutes going down in the
future, for sure next year. Sam will move to the 3, Joey might be the 4 and Morrow maybe the 5 if the three centers do not work out. Add the improvement of the Sacar,
Cain and Elliott and playing time might have been a problem. Sorry to see him go, but it opens a spot for a graduate point guard or freshman who sees what MU
has. Time will tell. And I am not mentioning Bailey as I am not sure at this time what position he will play, but assuming it is a wing.
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We lost some depth, but it's not like Haanif had skills that his replacements lack. He's a better shooter than Sacar or Elliott but was still option #4 in the starting line up from behind the arc. And he hit his free throws, but FT% no matta. Sacar is already a much better slasher - both finishing and on the drive and dish. Both Sacar and Elliott are tougher defenders. So 5 fewer fouls to give, a little less experience and a slightly lower floor in the short run vs a possibly significantly higher ceiling medium and long term (depending on the development of Sacar and the freshmen). Nothing to invoke weeping and gnashing of teeth.
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So Sacar is better or equal to Cheatham in almost every advanced metric. Anim is deserving of more minutes.
I guarantee that Anim will get more minutes than Cheatham for the remainder of the season.
#donedeal
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We lost some depth, but it's not like Haanif had skills that his replacements lack. He's a better shooter than Sacar or Elliott but was still option #4 in the starting line up from behind the arc. And he hit his free throws, but FT% no matta. Sacar is already a much better slasher - both finishing and on the drive and dish. Both Sacar and Elliott are tougher defenders. So 5 fewer fouls to give, a little less experience and a slightly lower floor in the short run vs a possibly significantly higher ceiling medium and long term (depending on the development of Sacar and the freshmen). Nothing to invoke weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The 5 fewer fouls sucks, but the bigger problem, in my eyes, is losing available veteran minutes. Athletically, HC is replaceable, sure. But for now, I'd rather have a junior on the floor in a tight game (*cough* EIU *cough*) than a freshman. Plus, just losing a body mi-year makes game planning harder and forces guys to play more minutes than they would have otherwise. We'll bounce back, and the young guys will step up, but this makes their learning curve that much steeper.
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One of my favorite "weird memories" from all of my years going to Bulls games was the first game after the lockout ended in Jan 1999. It also was the first game of the post-Michael, post-Scottie, post-Phil, post-relevance era.
Wennington, always a good talker, is handed the microphone at midcourt to say a few words to fans. He apologized in advance for what the fans would see that season. Then, after vowing that the players would work hard to make Bulls fans proud, he didn't even bother jumping for the opening tip. Indiana got it and scored ... and it all went downhill from there.
LOL amazing
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To borrow from Donald Rumsfeld, MU is going to do battle with the team we have, not the team we wish we had. Take a long, objective look at the size, experience, and talent level of this team. Adjust your expectations accordingly.
Agree with this wholeheartedly. While I'm sorry to see HC go, this notion that our season may now be a wash or in serious jeopardy is a bit exaggerated. Yes we'd be more balanced if he were still here but it's not like we were ever expected to make much noise next March in the first place so the calculus hasn't changed from my vantage point.
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When burton left we had the worst season in 50+ years of MUBB
Some people think it had to do with Dawson leaving.
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This thread disappoints me. At its heart is a bunch of backward thinking that every transfer is a strike against the program. How about the incoming kids?
Out
Traci Carter
Duane Wilson
Hannif Cheatam
Sandy Cohen
In
Andrew Rowsey
Katin Reinhardt
Harry Froling
Ed Morrow
Question ... which is the better list of players? Out or In?
Hands down it is In. The massive amount of transfers in college sports (and basketball in particular) is a net positive for MU. Root for more transfers as we get better, not worse, because of it.
So, change your Depends and update your thinking ... you should expect at least 1 transfer a semester. And don't be shocked if we have another one before school starts in January. And, also expect Wojo to get a better player in return.
Holy smokes ... strike up the effen band ... Smuggles and I actually agree on something!!
I would have included Rowsey and Carlino as in and Deonte, Taylor and Magic as out - all of which took place under Wojo's watch - and I also would have said it in a way that didn't make me sound like I was trying to flex my superiority. But I agree wholeheartedly with Smuggles' thesis.
So far, "the transfer game" has been a plus under Wojo. Quite arguably a major plus.
This simply is the way college basketball works today.
I also agree with Pilot's post:
Everyone seems to believe hanni was the savior of MU basketball or something.
Nice player, but by no means have my expectations of the NCAA tournament berth changed. I won't miss Hanni continuously getting stuffed at the rim each game. His offense was subpar. No right hand finish, and could hit the open 3 once in a while.
Elliot has shown me he's much better defensively and Anim can make up for the loss of Hanni's offensive production.
I hope we'll for the young man, but I think this could be a good thing. Freshman getting a lot of run and contributing early.
Our depth takes a hit - and that's never fun. But if Elliott, Cain and Sacar develop as it looks like they might, this could end up being a net positive for us - definitely for next season, but even for this year.
I'm staying open-minded about it. Not only because it takes less energy and makes me feel better to be positive than negative, but also because it's out of my control.
Even if I thought losing Haani was a tragedy (I don't) and if I thought Wojo was losing the "transfer game" (I definitely don't), it STILL would be better to be open-minded and positive.
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The biggest loss of anyone on the "out" category should be Gabe Levin. That dude would have been incredible useful this season and the last 2.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/68087/gabe-levin (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/68087/gabe-levin)
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The biggest loss of anyone on the "out" category should be Gabe Levin. That dude would have been incredible useful this season and the last 2.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/68087/gabe-levin (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/68087/gabe-levin)
Guy had the best high school education Illinois can offer
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Guy had the best high school education Illinois can offer
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The biggest loss of anyone on the "out" category should be Gabe Levin. That dude would have been incredible useful this season and the last 2.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/68087/gabe-levin (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/68087/gabe-levin)
Yep. Trading Levin for Henry was a big loser for the program.
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Yep. Trading Levin for Henry was a big loser for the program.
Not just Levin. Also Taylor. Possibly others such as Kyle Washington and Harry Froling (as a freshman). Hard to see that up front, hindsight is 20/20
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Yep. Trading Levin for Henry was a big loser for the program.
We traded Levin for Henry? Wasn't aware that Marquette was only able to use 11 of their 13 allotted scholarships in 15-16.
edit: not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. 8-)
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Not just Levin. Also Taylor. Possibly others such as Kyle Washington and Harry Froling (as a freshman). Hard to see that up front, hindsight is 20/20
Fair. But landing Henry helped us get Froling on the rebound by showing Harry how Wojo can incorporate a skilled big man.
I think being competitive in Wojo's 2nd year helped us land Howard. No way to know if the relationship with Stan would've been enough if MU was last in the BE two years in a row.
Landing Henry may have even helped legitimize Wojo in the state and help with Wojo's recruiting efforts for the Hausers. I don't have any insider knowledge saying that was the case but I think it is a plausible theory. BD did post once about a domino effect where landing HE helped get Markus, Sam, and Joey.
So landing Henry hurt in some ways but may have helped in others.
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We traded Levin for Henry? Wasn't aware that Marquette was only able to use 11 of their 13 allotted scholarships in 15-16.
edit: not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. 8-)
We absolutely traded Levin for Henry. It was made clear that Henry was committing during his on campus and Levin announced he was transferring shortly after that. Taylor also left because Henry was coming in.
Fair. But landing Henry helped us get Froling on the rebound by showing Harry how Wojo can incorporate a skilled big man.
I think being competitive in Wojo's 2nd year helped us land Howard. No way to know if the relationship with Stan would've been enough if MU was last in the BE two years in a row.
Landing Henry may have even helped legitimize Wojo in the state and help with Wojo's recruiting efforts for the Hausers. I don't have any insider knowledge saying that was the case but I think it is a plausible theory. BD did post once about a domino effect where landing HE helped get Markus, Sam, and Joey.
So landing Henry hurt in some ways but may have helped in others.
All fair. Impossible to know how things would have shaken out without Henry.
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We absolutely traded Levin for Henry. It was made clear that Henry was committing during his on campus and Levin announced he was transferring shortly after that. Taylor also left because Henry was coming in.
Sure. But scholarship-wise, could have had both of them (and STJr!). It wasn't a one or the other thing. It's not like Wojo was going to call Levin (or Steve) into his office to get permission to get a commit from a 5 star recruit.
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Sure. But scholarship-wise, could have had both of them (and STJr!). It wasn't a one or the other thing. It's not like Wojo was going to call Levin (or Steve) into his office to get permission to get a commit from a 5 star recruit.
Sure. But that's the risk you run when you recruit a 5-star player. To be clear, I want us to get to the point where we are regularly recruiting 5-star players. In hindsight, I wonder if recruiting a 5-star player to a team full of nothing was the right move. But LHB is correct too. Henry's presence might have hurt with some players but maybe helped us with others. Impossible to know.
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Yeah ... forgot about Levin.
I'll still take the "coming to MUs" vs the "leaving MUs" in the Great Transfer Game since Wojo arrived.
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Yeah ... forgot about Levin.
I'll still take the "coming to MUs" vs the "leaving MUs" in the Great Transfer Game since Wojo arrived.
Isn't Levin a wash? He was both a transfer in and a transfer out.
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We saw a little bit on Saturday how Haanif's departure (and Traci's and Duane's) will negatively impact the team going forward. Wojo is clearly ticked at Rowsey. In year's past, he has benched players (ok, player. JaJuan) when they aren't practicing and playing and leading the way Wojo wants. He can't bench Rowsey. There simply are no other options. So he did the strongest thing he did, he demoted him. Markus's foul trouble dictated Rowsey coming in and playing (poorly) his usual minutes.
I am not saying that Haanif would have been the difference maker on Saturday. However, I can definitely see a scenario where he would have practiced at PG all week and started there on Saturday with Rowsey never leaving the bench. And Wojo's message would have been sent loud and clear. Haanif was never a natural point guard. But he had done it. Start him at point, have Sam help bring the ball up against pressure, let Markus and Sam come off some screens. No longer an option.
Wojo and the team are worse off for it.
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Tower
If Rowsey is trouble, bench him and leave them there. I would 100% respect Wojo if that ends up being the case. MU ball owes him nothing.
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I cannot agree with willfully going into a game with only Markus, Elliot, and Sacar at guard. Too big of an ask.
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There is no getting around the fact that Haanif's decision has negatively impacted the prospects for the rest of the year. There wasn't enough size, depth or experience before. This has exacerbated the problem. I know longer think this is a bubble team. Counting on 3 freshmen to make significant contributions is asking for disappointment.
If Wojo somehow gets this team to the tourney, any questions about his ability will be put to rest. And recruit more guards.
Bump.
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Bump.
Need Sat, prob 1 in BET an SH to lose next 2
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Bump.
Except Cain and Elliott are posting much better numbers in Big East play than Haanif ever did. Haanif was overmatched at high major level. Great kid. But, we don't need another below the rim player, and Haanif didn't possess nearly the athleticism of Greg and Jamal - simply would have stunted their growth, and in turn, the programs. Was addition by subtraction.
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Except Cain and Elliott are posting much better numbers in Big East play than Haanif ever did. Haanif was overmatched at high major level. Great kid. But, we don't need another below the rim player, and Haanif didn't possess nearly the athleticism of Greg and Jamal - simply would have stunted their growth, and in turn, the programs. Was addition by subtraction.
Agree with this. Haanif wouldn’t have made a difference to the team’s NCAA hopes. He transferred to a school that better suits his basketball abilities.
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Agree with this. Haanif wouldn’t have made a difference to the team’s NCAA hopes. He transferred to a school that better suits his basketball abilities.
Having Haanif on the team would have helped. Better than an empty scholarship. Doesn't have the upside of Elliott or Cain, but was hardly without value.
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Agree with this. Haanif wouldn’t have made a difference to the team’s NCAA hopes. He transferred to a school that better suits his basketball abilities.
He transferred to a school closer to home for family reasons.
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He transferred to a school closer to home for family reasons.
He transferred for more PT. The family story was what he any Wojo agreed to for a cover story.
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Haanif would have been a 6'5 junior guard on a team that lacks depth, experience, and defenders. An 8 ppg guard who can hit the occasional 3 and defend multiple positions and has the body and experience to grind through a big East season. Yeah, this team had no need for that. :o
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I cannot agree with willfully going into a game with only Markus, Elliot, and Sacar at guard. Too big of an ask.
...but that is exactly what we will have next season; unless we fill the open schollie with a serviceable senior transfer pg. I agree Haani leaving hurt the team, especially on defense.
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...but that is exactly what we will have next season; unless we fill the open schollie with a serviceable senior transfer pg.
Absolutely agree. Not worried about it yet.
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Absolutely agree. Not worried about it yet.
Do you see any way our defense improves next season? Will Morrow provide (hopefully with good hands) that rebounding we so desperately need? Is Joey a good rebounder? I know Harry has not played much, but I think he was the reason we won the game last night neutralizing Gtown's big guy.
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Haanif would have been a 6'5 junior guard on a team that lacks depth, experience, and defenders. An 8 ppg guard who can hit the occasional 3 and defend multiple positions and has the body and experience to grind through a big East season. Yeah, this team had no need for that. :o
Who knows? Could we have used him at times? Sure. Would his limited use made him unhappy enough to be a negative? Maybe. It's possible we would have won 1 or 2 games when Elliott, Sacar or Cain struggled. Also possible we would have lost games they played well in. Bottom line - he was an experienced player on a downward trajectory and his departure means more time for inexperienced players with more potential. I think we benefitted.
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Do you see any way our defense improves next season? Will Morrow provide (hopefully with good hands) that rebounding we so desperately need? Is Joey a good rebounder? I know Harry has not played much, but I think he was the reason we won the game last night neutralizing Gtown's big guy.
To your questions, yes, yes, and yes.
I do still have concerns about how much our defense will improve, but I think it does improve. I think Ed will be a difference maker. He's proven he can play at a high-major level, so I have more confidence in him than I do in the average transfer. I also expect Joey to contribute. Maybe not as much as some might hope, but he's a smart player, technically sound, and 5-star for a reason.
I think tower's point is that worrying about next year now isn't the priority. We still have Creighton, the Big East Tournament, and whatever postseason comes after that. We have at least one open scholarship and there will likely be a wealth of options for the staff to look at. The PG for 2018-19 will sort itself out in the coming months, but now it's better to enjoy the coming month.
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Haanif would have been a 6'5 junior guard on a team that lacks depth, experience, and defenders. An 8 ppg guard who can hit the occasional 3 and defend multiple positions and has the body and experience to grind through a big East season. Yeah, this team had no need for that. :o
No argument with your point, but Haani left us for PT.
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No argument with your point, but Haani left us for PT.
Maybe he thought that Greg and Jamal would pass him next year, but 25 mpg isn't exactly garbage time
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IMO, then and now, his departure negatively impacted the season. I understand the who what when why and how of it his departure. I think some are choosing to downplay the consequences of his departure.
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To your questions, yes, yes, and yes.
I do still have concerns about how much our defense will improve, but I think it does improve. I think Ed will be a difference maker. He's proven he can play at a high-major level, so I have more confidence in him than I do in the average transfer. I also expect Joey to contribute. Maybe not as much as some might hope, but he's a smart player, technically sound, and 5-star for a reason.
I think tower's point is that worrying about next year now isn't the priority. We still have Creighton, the Big East Tournament, and whatever postseason comes after that. We have at least one open scholarship and there will likely be a wealth of options for the staff to look at. The PG for 2018-19 will sort itself out in the coming months, but now it's better to enjoy the coming month.
Considering Sam's freshman year, and especially sophomore year, and the fact that Joey is a little bigger/more athletic/ranked higher... Has me salivating about the idea of a senior Sam and sophomore Joey
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IMO, then and now, his departure negatively impacted the season. I understand the who what when why and how of it his departure. I think some are choosing to downplay the consequences of his departure.
If Hani would have been OK with his role shrinking (essentially backing up Sacar) I agree his staying would have been a small net positive. But doesn't his leaving indicate that he wasn't OK with that? This year's team has some weaknesses but team chemistry doesn't seem to be among them. If an unhappy Cheatham sticks around, who knows?
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Haanif would have been a 6'5 junior guard on a team that lacks depth, experience, and defenders. An 8 ppg guard who can hit the occasional 3 and defend multiple positions and has the body and experience to grind through a big East season. Yeah, this team had no need for that. :o
No sh*t. Haani would be a welcome addition to this squad. Role players are important to have.
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No argument with your point, but Haani left us for PT.
And possibly he got tired of standing wide open at the three point line and both Rowsey and Howard completely ignoring him. I saw that way too often.
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No sh*t. Haani would be a welcome addition to this squad. Role players are important to have.
Essentially his Value Added was zero.
http://www.valueaddbasketball.com