I've been perplexed by how often Theo's screens are deemed illegal. He reminds me of a younger Matt, who almost never gets called for that now. It seemed to me that the common causes (not enough of a chance for the opponent to avoid, motion, or use of hands, butt, or some other body part to obstruct the opponent) did not apply. So I looked it up and (without benefit of tapes to view) suspect that the problem might be with his feet. I seem to recall his widening the stance, which seems like a pretty normal thing to do when you're expecting to take a hit. Apparently, the feet are supposed to be no wider than shoulder width. I hope he can figure out whatever the problem is so he can stay on the floor.
yes it is partially his stance as you must not extend any part of your body outside your shoulders when setting a screen. He gets too wide of a base.
Also yesterday he got called for one that was Howard's fault. The man getting screened needs to let the screen get set before they make a move
It seems as though it would be easy for the coaches to stop this and in some cases it might be.
But these fouls are not always Theo's and Matt's fault. The ball handler bears responsibility many times when these moving screens are called.
I have seen many times when the guard with the ball starts moving before the screener has time to set. That is on the ballhandler more than the screener.
Beat me to it, Injury.
Illegal screens are an easy way for the officials to get teams into the bonus faster.
Without rewatching tape, I've felt like he bends at the waist a bit, lowering his shoulder in anticipation of the collision, which may cause either the illusion of motion, or the appearance of being overly violent with the screen.
Seems like he's getting picked on a bit, but I have seen him lean into a few too.
Wide stances, bad for politicians in men's rooms, bad for freshman bigs setting high screens.
Quote from: Jockey on November 22, 2017, 12:39:44 PM
It seems as though it would be easy for the coaches to stop this and in some cases it might be.
Drills where his shoelaces are tied together so he can only get his feet shoulder width apart. ::)
Some good points here.
I also think he has been a victim of a couple bad calls ... and I'm a ref who often sides with them. I think a couple of refs have been guilty of anticipating bad screens and they call them automatically, especially on a freshman in his first month. It's not fair ... it just "is."
Some more veteran college players - and definitely NBA players - all but grab defenders while setting screens, especially high screens. What's comical to watch in the NBA is when the refs let a guy get away with it all game but then call it in the last 2 minutes ... and the player goes berserk. Yeah, it's an offensive foul, but you didn't call it the first 20 times I did it!
First time I noticed it in great frequency was when I watched a lot of Illini games during James Augustine's junior and senior seasons. He probably set a dozen moving screens or more every game but rarely got called. Noticed it a lot more since.
Bottom line: If Theo gets more fundamentally sound it will help, but it also will help getting more experience and having the refs get more used to him. As is the case with Heldt.
Quote from: MU82 on November 22, 2017, 03:08:59 PM
Some good points here.
I also think he has been a victim of a couple bad calls ... and I'm a ref who often sides with them. I think a couple of refs have been guilty of anticipating bad screens and they call them automatically, especially on a freshman in his first month. It's not fair ... it just "is."
Some more veteran college players - and definitely NBA players - all but grab defenders while setting screens, especially high screens. What's comical to watch in the NBA is when the refs let a guy get away with it all game but then call it in the last 2 minutes ... and the player goes berserk. Yeah, it's an offensive foul, but you didn't call it the first 20 times I did it!
First time I noticed it in great frequency was when I watched a lot of Illini games during James Augustine's junior and senior seasons. He probably set a dozen moving screens or more every game but rarely got called. Noticed it a lot more since.
Bottom line: If Theo gets more fundamentally sound it will help, but it also will help getting more experience and having the refs get more used to him. As is the case with Heldt.
As detailed above I think some of the bad calls are because he "looks" like he's setting a bad screen. He's a big dude that leans forward and just looks like a linebacker right before the screening contact. Just a case of officials reacting and not thinking. Not sure what can be done about it.
Right. A big guy with a wide stance who leans a little. He will learn and in a couple of years will get the benefit of the doubt.
Quote from: MU82 on November 22, 2017, 03:08:59 PM
Some good points here.
I also think he has been a victim of a couple bad calls ... and I'm a ref who often sides with them. I think a couple of refs have been guilty of anticipating bad screens and they call them automatically, especially on a freshman in his first month. It's not fair ... it just "is."
Some more veteran college players - and definitely NBA players - all but grab defenders while setting screens, especially high screens. What's comical to watch in the NBA is when the refs let a guy get away with it all game but then call it in the last 2 minutes ... and the player goes berserk. Yeah, it's an offensive foul, but you didn't call it the first 20 times I did it!
First time I noticed it in great frequency was when I watched a lot of Illini games during James Augustine's junior and senior seasons. He probably set a dozen moving screens or more every game but rarely got called. Noticed it a lot more since.
Bottom line: If Theo gets more fundamentally sound it will help, but it also will help getting more experience and having the refs get more used to him. As is the case with Heldt.
This. The ref's scouting report is out on Theo, as it was on Matt. Similarly, If you are a PG who is always reaching, you can bet the refs will be more than ready to blow a quick whistle on you--especially if you are young and it is early in the season.
The refs are not objectively watching to see if TJ leaned a little, if his feet were a little too wide, if he had a body part extending--they have already made their mind before he does it.......similar as it was to Matt.
MH's ability to set a pick has not greatly improved. However, Matt sets similar picks as those of TJ's, but miraculously does not get called.
Regardless, if the boys are setting 4, 6, or 8 screens in an offensive set, it is imperative that we don't get CALLED for a moving screen--whatever that takes.
Quote from: mu03eng on November 22, 2017, 03:20:47 PM
As detailed above I think some of the bad calls are because he "looks" like he's setting a bad screen. He's a big dude that leans forward and just looks like a linebacker right before the screening contact. Just a case of officials reacting and not thinking. Not sure what can be done about it.
This. Similar reason to why Marcus keeps getting called for blocking on obvious charges... his natural reaction seems to have him lean slightly backward a split second before contact (simply trying to avoid the full brunt of the hit), and as such, the ref - seeing movement as contact is made - calls the block, even though his feet won't move.
Fixing this or Theo's stance, is a lot easier said than done. It's instinctual at this point, so it's not something that's going to change overnight. Best to hope for in the short term is they get a posi rep for their play that starts earning them the "LeBron" benefit of the doubt.
During a time out, Stan called the official over with Theo and asked the ref to instruct Theo what he was doing wrong. Basically, he has to get his arms in tighter and not hook the defender.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 22, 2017, 05:15:47 PM
During a time out, Stan called the official over with Theo and asked the ref to instruct Theo what he was doing wrong. Basically, he has to get his arms in tighter and not hook the defender.
Thanks, nice to read observations, that involve Ref's instructions to Theo. Will be watching for it Tonight.
Quote from: Benny B on November 22, 2017, 04:44:55 PM
This. Similar reason to why Marcus keeps getting called for blocking on obvious charges... his natural reaction seems to have him lean slightly backward a split second before contact (simply trying to avoid the full brunt of the hit), and as such, the ref - seeing movement as contact is made - calls the block, even though his feet won't move.
Fixing this or Theo's stance, is a lot easier said than done. It's instinctual at this point, so it's not something that's going to change overnight. Best to hope for in the short term is they get a posi rep for their play that starts earning them the "LeBron" benefit of the doubt.
Hey Benny ... who is this LeBron kid, and does he have any eligibility left? Sounds like a decent prospect!
Quote from: WE R FINAL FOUR on November 22, 2017, 04:05:52 PM
This. The ref's scouting report is out on Theo, as it was on Matt. Similarly, If you are a PG who is always reaching, you can bet the refs will be more than ready to blow a quick whistle on you--especially if you are young and it is early in the season.
Yep, refs basically called it before it happened. I think they have a list of freshman "bigs" and just call this stuff on them to make sure their whistles are working early in the game.
Quote from: MU82 on November 22, 2017, 06:17:32 PM
Hey Benny ... who is this LeBron kid, and does he have any eligibility left? Sounds like a decent prospect!
I think he has all four years of eligibility left if he donates a few mill to charity.
Quote from: MU82 on November 22, 2017, 03:08:59 PM
Some good points here.
I also think he has been a victim of a couple bad calls ... and I'm a ref who often sides with them. I think a couple of refs have been guilty of anticipating bad screens and they call them automatically, especially on a freshman in his first month. It's not fair ... it just "is."
Some more veteran college players - and definitely NBA players - all but grab defenders while setting screens, especially high screens. What's comical to watch in the NBA is when the refs let a guy get away with it all game but then call it in the last 2 minutes ... and the player goes berserk. Yeah, it's an offensive foul, but you didn't call it the first 20 times I did it!
First time I noticed it in great frequency was when I watched a lot of Illini games during James Augustine's junior and senior seasons. He probably set a dozen moving screens or more every game but rarely got called. Noticed it a lot more since.
Bottom line: If Theo gets more fundamentally sound it will help, but it also will help getting more experience and having the refs get more used to him. As is the case with Heldt.
Could not agree more. However, the 2nd B1G corollary of "Bo's angelic Badgers" (we never foul) has got to be the Illini fans. I went to grad school there, and they may be the most paranoid fanbase in all college hoops. I think it was the result of local media whiner-in-chief Loren Tate, who wore a tinfoil Chief Illiniwek headdress. Ever since then-Iowa assistant Bruce Pearl recorded Deon Thomas admitting to receiving special benefits, Tate maintained a conspiratorial vendetta haunted Champaign. No true Illini fan would ever admit to Augustine getting the benefit of the doubt on moving screens.
Have to admit, Tate was prescient on Pearl's true colors, as his shady Vol and Auburn antics are character revealed, as Brent likes to say.
Ummm theos screens are illegal. U can bitch and wine about it and feel there is some "referees scouting report" that is being passed around like the Steele document or something, but this is ignorant.
Theo is leaning into his defender and clipping the defender with his shoulder. He is trying to do too much. He needs to simply establish his position and stand like a post. It is his teammates job to rub and allow no daylight between him self n theos screen. Theo needs to realize whether the opponent goes under or over the screen that he has done his job and that leaning into the defender is not only unnecessary but a foul
Quote from: ZenyattasTapitColt on November 23, 2017, 01:32:12 AM
Could not agree more. However, the 2nd B1G corollary of "Bo's angelic Badgers" (we never foul) has got to be the Illini fans. I went to grad school there, and they may be the most paranoid fanbase in all college hoops. I think it was the result of local media whiner-in-chief Loren Tate, who wore a tinfoil Chief Illiniwek headdress. Ever since then-Iowa assistant Bruce Pearl recorded Deon Thomas admitting to receiving special benefits, Tate maintained a conspiratorial vendetta haunted Champaign. No true Illini fan would ever admit to Augustine getting the benefit of the doubt on moving screens.
Have to admit, Tate was prescient on Pearl's true colors, as his shady Vol and Auburn antics are character revealed, as Brent likes to say.
Yes, I had many, um, "passionate" discussions with IlliniLand residents for about a decade. It was an interesting decade, and arguably the most successful one in Illinois basketball history, and the fans grew more and more entitled. Augustine committed a dozen offensive fouls a game and got called for none - they had no right to beyotch!