Pretty clear
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 10, 2017, 08:31:30 PM
Pretty clear
15 minutes into a game against Mount St. Mary's? Lol.
Last year's opener vs. Vandy:
Luke: 7/9 FG, 4/4 FT, 18p, 7 boards (3 off), 3 assists, 3 blocks, 2 steals, 0 turnovers.
Open your eyes.
Agenda.
Too soon
PNR defense
Rebounding
Ability to recover
All defensive abilities
I'll give you that. How does he compare to Fischer though?
Ughhh
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 10, 2017, 09:10:40 PM
PNR defense
Rebounding
Ability to recover
All defensive abilities
Seriously. Stop being such a wet towel piece of trash. We get it. You had a man crush and Fish wasn't into you...
And what makes it even more sad... you've had this queued up for probably 6 months. Heldt could have gone 0-32 and you would have posted it. Loser
This guy
Not even close
Shhhhhh
Jeez, I had the under on this one, but before the first game was over? Incredible.
Heldt had a great game. Let's see how he fares against Isaac Haas before we make any sweeping proclamations.
Rowsey will be all conference too
U can pike on the hate n use shooting percentagrs all u want but Fuscher was the supreme reason that MU was one of the worst defensice teams in all of college basketball last year.
Sand Knit
Have you bumped your head?
Let's just stop with this ridiculousness. Heldt had a very nice game, both offensively and defensively last night and his growth as a ballplayer over these last two years has been outstanding. Remember all those moving screens on offense when he was a Frosh? It's a testament to how hard he's worked and how much he's tried to implement what his coaches have taught. Dare I say that no MU player in recent memory has improved that much over two seasons. But before we anoint him the second coming of Wilt or Kareem, let's see what he does against a Top 20 team on Tuesday, mkay.
Heldt looked good, but I would not yet say he is better than Fischer. However, it is very close either way. I will say that John is better than Heldt was as a freshmen.
Quote from: jsglow on November 11, 2017, 10:20:12 AM
Let's just stop with this ridiculousness. Heldt had a very nice game, both offensively and defensively last night and his growth as a ballplayer over these last two years has been outstanding. Remember all those moving screens on offense when he was a Frosh? It's a testament to how hard he's worked and how much he's tried to implement what his coaches have taught. Dare I say that no MU player in recent memory has improved that much over two seasons. But before we anoint him the second coming of Wilt or Kareem, let's see what he does against a Top 20 team on Tuesday, mkay.
Not on par with wilt or kareem
Just better than fischer which is not that hard
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 11, 2017, 10:32:17 AM
Not on par with wilt or kareem
Just better than fischer which is not that hard
I think how Wojo uses his bigs, always back to the basket, makes it very hard on the center to score against a good big man. Luke was not strong enough. Need a center that can play high and low (Froling?). Heldt will have a difficult time against other bigs. Just remember the South Carolina game no factor. It would be nice to
pull Haas out of the middle but in this offense it will not happen. Like to have center face-up and hit a free throw jumper. It might be better to play Hauser at the center
position to see how they guard him? Can he defend the big guy, not sure.
Quote from: bilsu on November 11, 2017, 10:27:17 AM
Heldt looked good, but I would not yet say he is better than Fischer. However, it is very close either way. I will say that John is better than Heldt was as a freshmen.
I certainly agree with that last statement. Theo's next step is to play more than 13 minutes without fouling out.
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 11, 2017, 10:32:17 AM
Not on par with wilt or kareem
Just better than fischer which is not that hard
Fischer isn't on the team anymore...so just STFU about it.
Quote from: DCHoopster on November 11, 2017, 10:59:38 AM
I think how Wojo uses his bigs, always back to the basket, makes it very hard on the center to score against a good big man. Luke was not strong enough. Need a center that can play high and low (Froling?). Heldt will have a difficult time against other bigs. Just remember the South Carolina game no factor. It would be nice to
pull Haas out of the middle but in this offense it will not happen. Like to have center face-up and hit a free throw jumper. It might be better to play Hauser at the center
position to see how they guard him? Can he defend the big guy, not sure.
Luke scored plenty. Drop offs, put backs, jump hooks. Hauser has no chance against Haas. You roll with the team you have. Heldt is improved at guarding without fouling. Theo needs to learn.
Matt Heldt is one of the reasons I am confident about our prospects this season. I believe he can give us 25 Big East level quality minutes a game. Last night was a good first step. The next game is going to be tough going against Isaac Haas. I believe Matt is up to the challenge and will give some vigorous resistance defensively, although it is likely he will foul out in the process. If our shooters can stretch the spacing, Matt maybe to pick up a few junk baskets here and there and on the offensive end.
Did Luke bang your daughter or what Sand Knit?
Quote from: jsglow on November 11, 2017, 10:20:12 AM
Let's just stop with this ridiculousness. Heldt had a very nice game, both offensively and defensively last night and his growth as a ballplayer over these last two years has been outstanding. Remember all those moving screens on offense when he was a Frosh? It's a testament to how hard he's worked and how much he's tried to implement what his coaches have taught. Dare I say that no MU player in recent memory has improved that much over two seasons. But before we anoint him the second coming of Wilt or Kareem, let's see what he does against a Top 20 team on Tuesday, mkay.
thank you! matthew has and is progressing very nicely. i lose no confidence when he enters the line up. fundamentally very sound
apples and fire hydrants though
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on November 11, 2017, 02:56:36 PM
Did Luke bang your daughter or what Sand Knit?
Nope just nice to see us play 5 v 5 defense again. I also like that howard is not starting, im a defense first guy and i think Fischer really really hurt the team . Team turned the corner when heldt started getting his minutes yet the board said fischer was better due to offensive stats. Was glad wojo finally took a defense first mentslity it was the turning point of our season. Watching heldt play defense last night n finish rebounds n offensive chances was just a reminder of how bad luke was .
Saying Heldt was better for the team, and saying he was better than Luke are two different things. Luke was unquestionably the better overall player but Heldt was unquestionably the better defender. You could make an arguement for Heldt without tearing down Luke and many would agree with you.
It's weird to type this, but there is a chance Heldt could wind up more productive. For one thing, his expectations are lower. If Heldt were to avg 8.0 pts and 8.0 rebs, we'd be ecstatic. His job is to be a gritty hustling big that plays D and crashes the boards. Fischer was supposed to be an impact player and a featured part of the offense. As far as we know, Heldt's shoulder is sound.
We haven't had a chance to see Heldt make moves or play the post, but don't be surprised if he gets plenty of 2nd chance points. Fischer had an assortment of post moves, and probably dominates gyms and games of H-O-R-S-E by calling "baby-hook off the glass," but unfortunately the fancy shots never seemed to fall in games
Quote from: Sultan of Slap O' Fivin' on November 11, 2017, 11:05:09 AM
Fischer isn't on the team anymore...so just STFU about it.
kinda harsh, enn'a?
Quote from: AZMarqfan on November 11, 2017, 04:59:20 PM
It's weird to type this, but there is a chance Heldt could wind up more productive. For one thing, his expectations are lower. If Heldt were to avg 8.0 pts and 8.0 rebs, we'd be ecstatic. His job is to be a gritty hustling big that plays D and crashes the boards. Fischer was supposed to be an impact player and a featured part of the offense. As far as we know, Heldt's shoulder is sound.
We haven't had a chance to see Heldt make moves or play the post, but don't be surprised if he gets plenty of 2nd chance points. Fischer had an assortment of post moves, and probably dominates gyms and games of H-O-R-S-E by calling "baby-hook off the glass," but unfortunately the fancy shots never seemed to fall in games
Actually fischer had one post move the jump hook. Never developed a drop stop or an up and under. The first two post moves taught in junior high. Unsure if that was a result of bad coaching all the way thru or just a lack of confidence in anything else forced him to always use the same move.
It never ceases to amaze how someone like Sand knit (or Heisy or Mufiny) can start a thread that under no circumstances deserves ANY response whatsoever, yet Scoop bites every time and fills pages either seriously discussing the issue or telling the poster he is out of line. Did your mother never tell you that they are just trying to get a rise out of you? Ignore the trolls and they might go away.
Just for once, I'd Love to see a topic like this posted and have everyone just let it hang.
Quote from: MomofMUltiples on November 11, 2017, 07:07:42 PM
It never ceases to amaze how someone like Sand knit (or Heisy or Mufiny) can start a thread that under no circumstances deserves ANY response whatsoever, yet Scoop bites every time and fills pages either seriously discussing the issue or telling the poster he is out of line. Did your mother never tell you that they are just trying to get a rise out of you? Ignore the trolls and they might go away.
Just for once, I'd Love to see a topic like this posted and have everyone just let it hang.
Amen!
I can't understand why people would argue with such baseless, stupid comments.
And to the guy who thinks Heldt will average 8 rebounds a game - ain't gonna happen.
And that Howard should not be a starter? Have these people ever watched basketball?
Quote from: MomofMUltiples on November 11, 2017, 07:07:42 PM
It never ceases to amaze how someone like Sand knit (or Heisy or Mufiny) can start a thread that under no circumstances deserves ANY response whatsoever, yet Scoop bites every time and fills pages either seriously discussing the issue or telling the poster he is out of line. Did your mother never tell you that they are just trying to get a rise out of you? Ignore the trolls and they might go away.
Just for once, I'd Love to see a topic like this posted and have everyone just let it hang.
You were probably one of the cool kids in junior high school.
Quote from: Herman Cain on November 11, 2017, 08:12:52 PM
You were probably one of the cool kids in junior high school.
And your the guy that big daddy called out for being full of sh1t, right?
Quote from: avid1010 on November 11, 2017, 08:45:26 PM
And your the guy that big daddy called out for being full of sh1t, right?
Up your game. Your a Marquette PHD, you can come up with something more clever and insightful.
Quote from: Herman Cain on November 11, 2017, 09:38:39 PM
Up your game. Your a Marquette PHD, you can come up with something more clever and insightful.
Can't say him coming up with something more clever or insightful is necessary at this point. You've been discredited about 90% of the time you post concerning players/recruits.
You're a great guy. You don't need the approval of us on a board. You don't need to continue to make stuff up, it's ok to be someone not in the know about MU basketball. I bet you're VERY in the know about your job and that's awesome enough dude!
mom...he's looking at me...stop, no you stop, you're mental, no you're mental...mom...he touched me again, no i didn't, yes you did.....wait until your father comes home...oh shhhhhhh....
Quote from: MomofMUltiples on November 11, 2017, 07:07:42 PM
It never ceases to amaze how someone like Sand knit (or Heisy or Mufiny) can start a thread that under no circumstances deserves ANY response whatsoever, yet Scoop bites every time and fills pages either seriously discussing the issue or telling the poster he is out of line.
Just for once, I'd Love to see a topic like this posted and have everyone just let it hang.
Beat me to it. Well said.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 11, 2017, 10:09:10 PM
mom...he's looking at me...stop, no you stop, you're mental, no you're mental...mom...he touched me again, no i didn't, yes you did.....wait until your father comes home...oh shhhhhhh....
99.99% of your posts I have no clue what the heck you're talking about. And I think that's probably a good thing.
Quote from: Herman Cain on November 11, 2017, 09:38:39 PM
Up your game. Your a Marquette PHD, you can come up with something more clever and insightful.
It's not a game...you came on this site and posted some B.S. that really would make our current players look bad if true. It was pure B.S. and for that you should take a hike. Not sure why you have to try and act like you have an inside scoop...but don't do It at the expense of making MU players look bad.
Quote from: fjm on November 11, 2017, 10:01:21 PM
Can't say him coming up with something more clever or insightful is necessary at this point. You've been discredited about 90% of the time you post concerning players/recruits.
You're a great guy. You don't need the approval of us on a board. You don't need to continue to make stuff up, it's ok to be someone not in the know about MU basketball. I bet you're VERY in the know about your job and that's awesome enough dude!
You took the classy route...probably should do so myself.
Quote from: Herman Cain on November 11, 2017, 08:12:52 PM
You were probably one of the cool kids in junior high school.
Is this an example of the vigorous resistance defensively you were referencing earlier?
The disappointment in Luke is that he had the makings of being a dominant collegiate center. I watched him play his first game in an MU uniform and came away thinking we are going to have the best collegiate center for the next 2 plus years. He never dominated became more and more frustrating to watch.
Heldt in his first year looked like a D2 player at best. He had a goofy running style and looked a little uncoordinated and out of place. There has been huge improvement in his all around game and he ended up starting at the end of the year over Luke.
On looks and skillset alone Luke is the no brainer of a pick but I would take Heldt over Luke. He knows his limitations and is the ultimate team player. He will struggle against very good bigs this year but so did Luke. I like that Heldt will give it his all on defense, will clean up around the bucket and actually will knock down free throws.
My images of Luke are he couldn't finish strong consistently even though he was the biggest and strongest on the court, was foul prone and had a hard time knocking down free throws. Maybe the injuries contributed to his lack of development but he leans towards a bust as Heldt leans towards a pleasant surprise.
Quote from: wadesworld on November 11, 2017, 10:20:47 PM
99.99% of your posts I have no clue what the heck you're talking about. And I think that's probably a good thing.
mine was a synopsis of posts #36 thru #41 or so. i guess you didn't catch that bicker-fest either. brought back memories of the long car rides with my 3 brothers in the back seat of our '65 rambler station wagon. we used to battle for the right rear passenger side as it was rusted thru and you could see the road pass by under the floor mat. we got pretty good at ducking quickly as my dad's backhands were legendary...oh, look at the pretty colored stars ;)
sorry you're missing out on some really good stuff. i'll try to knock 'er down a few levels
Quote from: mufanatic on November 12, 2017, 09:14:26 AM
The disappointment in Luke is that he had the makings of being a dominant collegiate center.
Not really.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 12, 2017, 09:47:43 AM
mine was a synopsis of posts #36 thru #41 or so. i guess you didn't catch that bicker-fest either. brought back memories of the long car rides with my 3 brothers in the back seat of our '65 rambler station wagon. we used to battle for the right rear passenger side as it was rusted thru and you could see the road pass by under the floor mat. we got pretty good at ducking quickly as my dad's backhands were legendary...oh, look at the pretty colored stars ;)
sorry you're missing out on some really good stuff. i'll try to knock 'er down a few levels
I get your stuff every time. Some people just not trying or see who wrote it and don't try at all. 8-)
I never viewed Luke as a great center. I viewed him as a decent center with nice jump hooks. Decent post defender, not good against the pick and roll. His defensive deficiencies were exacerbated by the lack of size behind him. His man would roll and it would be someone undersized trying to contest at the rim.
Heldt has progressed like you want a 3 star big to. He has a tremendous work ethic. He will have more depth and size behind him during the next two years, so we can hope that his weaknesses can be covered.
In the end, I expect that Luke will have better numbers.
Quote from: B. McBannerson on November 12, 2017, 11:18:59 AM
I get your stuff every time. Some people just not trying or see who wrote it and don't try at all. 8-)
To be fair, you are correct. Most of rocket's stuff is just whining victimization. I get enough of that from you.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 11, 2017, 10:09:10 PM
mom...he's looking at me...stop, no you stop, you're mental, no you're mental...mom...he touched me again, no i didn't, yes you did.....wait until your father comes home...oh shhhhhhh....
Don't make me turn this car around!
Quote from: Sultan of Slap O' Fivin' on November 12, 2017, 10:13:46 AMNot really.
Disagreed. In Luke's first 7 games, he averaged 13.1 ppg/5.4 rpg/2.4 bpg. We waited a year for him to become eligible, and suddenly we had a guy who was a double-double threat every night, a block machine, and this was when he was just starting to acclimate to the system.
Now granted, some of those were against cupcakes, but there were also double-digit scoring nights against 3 high-majors. It was very promising. It was also a zone defense. Luke thrived in a zone where drivers were funneled into him and he could just stand pat in the middle and alter shots. He also looked great because he was largely the fourth scoring option on a team with ball-dominant guards like Carlino, Duane, and JJ. For a few weeks, it looked like we had a guy who could be highly productive on both ends and he was only a sophomore who would continue to get better.
Unfortunately, Luke's lack of foot-speed, which was largely covered up by the zone defense, never improved which meant when we switched to man defense he became more of a liability. Offensively, he was always productive, but never really developed much more than we saw initially. No mid-range or ability to step back and not a wealth of post moves.
But for a few weeks, it did look like we had a dominant guy in the making.
Quote from: Sultan of Slap O' Fivin' on November 12, 2017, 11:31:10 AM
To be fair, you are correct. Most of rocket's stuff is just whining victimization. I get enough of that from you.
You know victimization apparently.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 12, 2017, 12:24:09 PM
Disagreed. In Luke's first 7 games, he averaged 13.1 ppg/5.4 rpg/2.4 bpg. We waited a year for him to become eligible, and suddenly we had a guy who was a double-double threat every night, a block machine, and this was when he was just starting to acclimate to the system.
Now granted, some of those were against cupcakes, but there were also double-digit scoring nights against 3 high-majors. It was very promising. It was also a zone defense. Luke thrived in a zone where drivers were funneled into him and he could just stand pat in the middle and alter shots. He also looked great because he was largely the fourth scoring option on a team with ball-dominant guards like Carlino, Duane, and JJ. For a few weeks, it looked like we had a guy who could be highly productive on both ends and he was only a sophomore who would continue to get better.
Unfortunately, Luke's lack of foot-speed, which was largely covered up by the zone defense, never improved which meant when we switched to man defense he became more of a liability. Offensively, he was always productive, but never really developed much more than we saw initially. No mid-range or ability to step back and not a wealth of post moves.
But for a few weeks, it did look like we had a dominant guy in the making.
Well you were deceived. I wasn't.
Quote from: B. McBannerson on November 12, 2017, 11:18:59 AM
I get your stuff every time. Some people just not trying or see who wrote it and don't try at all. 8-)
He completes you, doesn't he?
Watching Purdue vs Chicago State. Heldt will have to watch his feet going against the size 22 shoe'd center for Purdue. Twisted ankles waiting to happen.
Btw, they are good at hitting wide open threes so...you know...guard the perimeter
Dudes can't just let it hang, hey?
After the MSM game its clear that Matt heldt will be an all american ;D
Quote from: GoldenEagles32 on November 12, 2017, 09:36:12 PM
After the MSM game its clear that Matt heldt will be an all american ;D
Glad he has your support.
I remember reading comments on here about Luke possibly leaving early for the NBA after the first few games in his Marquette career. Now, Heldt is better than Luke ever was after one game this year. Let's wait and see how the whole season goes.
Luke had his weaknesses, sure, but I think he was very unappreciated by many fans. I think MU is going to miss him more this year than many expect. He was a pretty damn good offensive post player at the college level, and drew a lot of attention from opposing defenses.
Luke = Elite offensive center and terrible defensive center
Heldt (last season) = Bad (but not terrible) offensive center, average defensive center
Heldt (this season) = It's one game against a cupcake. We know nothing but so far so good.
All that really can be said about the topic
Quote from: GrimmReaper33 on November 13, 2017, 10:29:53 AM
I remember reading comments on here about Luke possibly leaving early for the NBA after the first few games in his Marquette career. Now, Heldt is better than Luke ever was after one game this year. Let's wait and see how the whole season goes.
Luke had his weaknesses, sure, but I think he was very unappreciated by many fans. I think MU is going to miss him more this year than many expect. He was a pretty damn good offensive post player at the college level, and drew a lot of attention from opposing defenses.
Yep. Luke will be missed. But, we move on.
Quote from: GrimmReaper33 on November 13, 2017, 10:29:53 AM
I remember reading comments on here about Luke possibly leaving early for the NBA after the first few games in his Marquette career. Now, Heldt is better than Luke ever was after one game this year. Let's wait and see how the whole season goes.
Luke had his weaknesses, sure, but I think he was very unappreciated by many fans. I think MU is going to miss him more this year than many expect. He was a pretty damn good offensive post player at the college level, and drew a lot of attention from opposing defenses.
I think it was long ago proven that MU was actually poorer off on possesions where we
force fed Luke in the post. At the rate we shot 3 s last year luke was the poorer option. His turnovers and his bad free thtow shhoting only made it worse. Throw in the very poor rebounding on the other end, the fouling and the atrocious defense and it was hard for some to watch. Thankfully, the coaches realized it was fools gold before the end of the season
nm
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 13, 2017, 10:35:29 AM
Luke = Elite offensive center and terrible defensive center
Heldt (last season) = Bad (but not terrible) offensive center, average defensive center
Heldt (this season) = It's one game against a cupcake. We know nothing but so far so good.
All that really can be said about the topic
This. Of course.
But it's too much common sense, not enough bluster.
Just once, I'd love to see MU have a dominant back to the basket big, that when you threw it in to him, you knew it was a basket almost every single time.
Quote from: muguru on November 13, 2017, 12:08:58 PM
Just once, I'd love to see MU have a dominant back to the basket big, that when you threw it in to him, you knew it was a basket almost every single time.
Like Big Sheesh?
Quote from: muguru on November 13, 2017, 12:08:58 PM
Just once, I'd love to see MU have a dominant back to the basket big, that when you threw it in to him, you knew it was a basket almost every single time.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 13, 2017, 12:14:29 PM
Like Big Sheesh?
My first thought as well.
My second thought, Luke had an absurdly high eFG% so maybe we did have one last season.
Quote from: muguru on November 13, 2017, 12:08:58 PM
Just once, I'd love to see MU have a dominant back to the basket big, that when you threw it in to him, you knew it was a basket almost every single time.
Davante is as good as you are going to get. "Dominant back to the basket bigs" are few and far between these days.
Quote from: muguru on November 13, 2017, 12:08:58 PM
Just once, I'd love to see MU have a dominant back to the basket big, that when you threw it in to him, you knew it was a basket almost every single time.
I remember a certain 350 pound ox.
Quote from: muguru on November 13, 2017, 12:08:58 PM
Just once, I'd love to see MU have a dominant back to the basket big, that when you threw it in to him, you knew it was a basket almost every single time.
I'd much rather have an athletic shot blocking and rebounding big. That would be a better fit for this team.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 13, 2017, 04:29:09 PM
I'd much rather have an athletic shot blocking and rebounding big. That would be a better fit for this team.
Yep rebound n play defense at the 5 if u cant do that you hurt the team.
Good call dude!
ROFL
silly
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 13, 2017, 06:38:23 PM
Yep rebound n play defense at the 5 if u cant do that you hurt the team.
I hope you can kindly stfu about this topic moving forward.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 14, 2017, 10:41:21 PM
I hope you can kindly stfu about this topic moving forward.
He won't
I am certain Luke would have done worse and woul have fouled out even sooner. Wojo chosen to defend him straight up. They doubled in the second n purdue hit their 3s. Pretty simple. To say Heldts struugles tonight against a senior that gors 7'2 and 300 lbs vindicates Fischer?, never saw fischer play delgado or any good 5
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 14, 2017, 10:59:01 PM
I am certain Luke would have done worse and woul have fouled out even sooner. Wojo chosen to defend him straight up. They doubled in the second n purdue hit their 3s. Pretty simple. To say Heldts struugles tonight against a senior that gors 7'2 and 300 lbs vindicates Fischer?, never saw fischer play delgado or any good 5
Told you Vander
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 14, 2017, 10:59:01 PM
I am certain Luke would have done worse and woul have fouled out even sooner. Wojo chosen to defend him straight up. They doubled in the second n purdue hit their 3s. Pretty simple. To say Heldts struugles tonight against a senior that gors 7'2 and 300 lbs vindicates Fischer?, never saw fischer play delgado or any good 5
Is it impossible to think that maybe at least Fischer would have been enough of an offensive threat to have drawn some fouls on the Purdue big men, just as he did Creighton's big man?
Defensively, could Luke have possibly done any worse than Matt did? Purdue's big men scored whenever they wanted to.
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 14, 2017, 10:59:01 PM
I am certain Luke would have done worse and woul have fouled out even sooner. Wojo chosen to defend him straight up. They doubled in the second n purdue hit their 3s. Pretty simple. To say Heldts struugles tonight against a senior that gors 7'2 and 300 lbs vindicates Fischer?, never saw fischer play delgado or any good 5
Matt has a long way to go. Hope Froling can add quality minutes when he can play.
Quote from: MU82 on November 14, 2017, 11:05:41 PM
Is it impossible to think that maybe at least Fischer would have been enough of an offensive threat to have drawn some fouls on the Purdue big men, just as he did Creighton's big man?
Defensively, could Luke have possibly done any worse than Matt did? Purdue's big men scored whenever they wanted to.
I tend to think this is a silly topic, too. But indeed, Luke could have and most likely would have done worse.
A point not mentioned above is that part of the reason we were able shoot so well from 3 last year was because of the threat Luke provided underneath, providing some room for our shooters.
Quote from: CTWarrior on November 15, 2017, 07:30:00 AM
I tend to think this is a silly topic, too. But indeed, Luke could have and most likely would have done worse.
A point not mentioned above is that part of the reason we were able shoot so well from 3 last year was because of the threat Luke provided underneath, providing some room for our shooters.
You mean like Purdue last night, throwing the ball into the a reliable post threat. When MU did not double, Haas scored. When MU doubled, everybody else scored. Are you saying that tossing the ball into a post player who can score creates space for shooters? Fake news! And clearly, Heldt and Theo are more of a threat in the post than Luke ever was!
Heldt's stat line:
16 minutes
0 points
1 rebound
2 assists
5 fouls
Hard to imagine how someone could play much worse than that...maybe no rebounds and no assists, and foul out even more quickly??
.
The loss of Luke is a major loss, IMO. He was a legit inside player and a decent to very decent D1 center. The loss of him and other three guys has left a major hole. Not saying the sky is falling, just Wojo and the staff have their work cut out for them this season. I believe this team will not match last years "success" unless Froling is the real deal. If he is not, I expect a losing record.
Quote from: Goose on November 15, 2017, 09:06:16 AM
The loss of Luke is a major loss, IMO. He was a legit inside player and a decent to very decent D1 center. The loss of him and other three guys has left a major hole. Not saying the sky is falling, just Wojo and the staff have their work cut out for them this season. I believe this team will not match last years "success" unless Froling is the real deal. If he is not, I expect a losing record.
Goose, Matt and Theo will not see 2 centers this tall this year, I know Matt was overmatched, I do not think that will be the case in most games. Neither will be able
to guard Happ at Wisconsin, but in the Big East besides Delgado they will be OK. No team has this size, Haas is really good. More concerned with Sacar and Cheatham,
they need a lot of work.
DC
Heldt or Froling are the least of the problems. I agree on HC and Sacar and lack of a true PG. There is plenty of work to be done at The Al on a lot of fronts. I only posted in this thread because of the lack of ball knowledge even starting this thread. I stated last year that Luke would be missed along with the other three guys. Oh well, at least I have Packers to cheer for:)
Quote from: Goose on November 15, 2017, 09:26:15 AM
DC
Heldt or Froling are the least of the problems. I agree on HC and Sacar and lack of a true PG. There is plenty of work to be done at The Al on a lot of fronts. I only posted in this thread because of the lack of ball knowledge even starting this thread. I stated last year that Luke would be missed along with the other three guys. Oh well, at least I have Packers to cheer for:)
Lets see how Wojo coaches this group up. Freshman class is weaker then we thought. Lets see what he does with them and if Froling can add some outside shooting
to this group. Offense got very stagnet in the second half, it became a Rowsey shoot around, that has got to stop. Coaching
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 14, 2017, 10:59:01 PM
I am certain Luke would have done worse and woul have fouled out even sooner. Wojo chosen to defend him straight up. They doubled in the second n purdue hit their 3s. Pretty simple. To say Heldts struugles tonight against a senior that gors 7'2 and 300 lbs vindicates Fischer?, never saw fischer play delgado or any good 5
Did Luke bang your mom, wife, sister, and/or girlfriend?
At least Luke would have posed an offensive threat.
I am embarrassed that I posted a few times in this troll-bait thread.
The entire premise is preposterous.
I'm done.
Quote from: Goose on November 15, 2017, 09:06:16 AM
The loss of Luke is a major loss, IMO. He was a legit inside player and a decent to very decent D1 center. The loss of him and other three guys has left a major hole. Not saying the sky is falling, just Wojo and the staff have their work cut out for them this season. I believe this team will not match last years "success" unless Froling is the real deal. If he is not, I expect a losing record.
Goose is absolutely correct - no way Heldt is as good as Fischer now though of course I hope he and all current players continue to improve. Fischer was constantly deciding whether to take the foul or back off because Reinhardt - and I will still live him for the Nova win - was the worst defender we've very had. He would overplay guys all the way to the sideline to allow easy cuts to the basket leaving Fischer 2 on 1.
Look at how much better Hauser was AS A DEFENSIVE CENTER than Heldt last night. Fischer was one of the best shooting centers in the country so we were getting very good offense on one end until his shoulder was hurt for the final stretch last year - and at least the option of matching height on defense.
So far Fischer - but rooting for Heldt and Froling - but if Theo can avoid those silly freshman fouls he can be the physical wild card.
Quote from: DCHoopster on November 15, 2017, 09:33:12 AM
Lets see how Wojo coaches this group up. Freshman class is weaker then we thought. Lets see what he does with them and if Froling can add some outside shooting
to this group. Offense got very stagnet in the second half, it became a Rowsey shoot around, that has got to stop. Coaching
I don't believe we are an NCAA or even an nit team, as I've said in my predictions all off season. Too young, but a year away.
That being said, I enjoyed the Rowsey-Howard shoot around so much I think that might be worth it if we aren't going to make the tournament anyway
Reinhardt was the 2nd best defender we had last season behind Sammy. Not saying much on last year's team but i don't think he was the worst defender we ever had
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 16, 2017, 07:33:27 AM
Reinhardt was the 2nd best defender we had last season behind Sammy. Not saying much on last year's team but i don't think he was the worst defender we ever had
Duane and JJJ were better defenders than Katie.
Lenny
Duane was better pure defender and JJJ cheated extremely well. But both were better, IMO.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 17, 2017, 04:21:21 PM
Duane and JJJ were better defenders than Katie.
Duane's defense was regularly overrated. In 139 defensive possessions, Duane allowed 125 points for a ppp allowed of .899. That ranked in the 37th percentile of Division 1 players.
In 185 defensive possessions, Katin allowed 151 points for a ppp allowed of .816. That ranked in the 63rd percentile of all Division 1 players. Not only that, but he was elite when facing a defender 1 on 1. In 21 possessions where a defender tried to take Katin in isolation, he only allowed 5 points. His ppp allowed of .238 in isolation situations was in the 99th percentile of all D1 players.
Now JJJ is an interesting case. Overall he allowed .857 points per possession which was in the 50th percentile. But his on ball defense was actually elite. He was great at defending the pick and roll, covering players off screens, and was one of the best at defending isolation. In 20 possessions where a defender tried to take JJJ in isolation, he only allowed 2 points. He was in the 100th percentile in this category. Where JJJ struggled was guarding jumpshooters. In 68 possessions where JJJ defended a jumpshot, he allowed 94 points. That means he allowed an incredible 1.382 ppp on jumpshots. That's historically bad. It put him in the bottom 2% of all Division 1 players. I've puzzled about how such a good on ball defender could be so bad at defending jumpshots. It has to be a combination of both bad luck and some lapse in his defensive abilities. Honestly, I think he would check out sometimes and not keep his hands up. The play that I remember from last season is Jalen Lindsey burying a three in his face right after Wojo emphasized staying in Lindsey's jersey all night during the time out.
How is it even an argument? I don't see Heldt surpassing Luke's career by any stretch of the imagination. Too much of the basis surrounding Luke's game was due to failed expectations. While he was good, people expected more. Maybe he was a bit "soft," didn't rebound too well and fouled too often but overall Luke is missed and will be missed the entire season.
I like Matty and his hustle but some of our success this season hinges upon the productivity from Froling or quick development from Theo.
8 rebounds n more solid defense by Mr. Heldt!
Why even both responding? He's either trolling, an idiot or both.
THEO>Heldt - if he can just stop the illegal picks!!!! We need good minutes from him with our small guards.
I'm about to say something political to shut this thread down.
Don't make me do it, RockY!
With the wet fisch out there VCU devastates us with the pick n roll. Heldts perimeter defense was the key. Did we hold D1 teams to 44% shooting n out rebound them last year?
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 20, 2017, 05:56:24 PM
With the wet fisch out there VCU devastates us with the pick n roll. Heldts perimeter defense was the key. Did we hold D1 teams to 44% shooting n out rebound them last year?
Seek help.
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 20, 2017, 05:56:24 PM
With the wet fisch out there VCU devastates us with the pick n roll. Heldts perimeter defense was the key. Did we hold D1 teams to 44% shooting n out rebound them last year?
If Theo can stay out of foul trouble he is taking Heldt's minutes it was obvious today.
Why are normal posters still posting in this ridiculous thread?
We should all be ashamed of ourselves! Those that are trying to make valid points, please make them in other threads!
What if aliens came down and tapped into our internet as reconnaissance and saw this thread? Surely it would provoke them to enslave us all and harvest our organs and vital fluids to fuel their intergalactic flux capacitors. Do you really want that on your conscience in the afterlife?
Quote from: MomofMUltiples on November 20, 2017, 05:54:58 PM
I'm about to say something political to shut this thread down.
Don't make me do it, RockY!
Do it, please
Quote from: PTM on November 20, 2017, 07:20:10 PM
Do it, please
Ok, what the hell-
A thief sticks a gun to this guys ribs and says- give me all your money to which the victim replies, do you realize that I'm a United States congressman? The thief looks at him, pauses, then says, oh, then give me all my money ;D
Bump. Because I need something to make me laugh this morning.
I do find the Luke support to be somewhat amusing. Late last season many on here felt Heldt was the answer. I wish the #5 spot was the only hole in the roster. To paraphrase 4ever "Wojo needs to up the talent level across the board". There is far more work to be done that most on here are willing to accept.
Agreed.
Don't worry, this will be defensible...i.e. fouled out their big man, Luke woulda fouled out, etc.
Quote from: Goose on November 28, 2017, 07:21:34 AM
I do find the Luke support to be somewhat amusing. Late last season many on here felt Heldt was the answer. I wish the #5 spot was the only hole in the roster. To paraphrase 4ever "Wojo needs to up the talent level across the board". There is far more work to be done that most on here are willing to accept.
I remember a vocal few who felt that way, especially one person. But I strongly disagree it was many or the majority.
Vander
Honestly I do nor remember who or how many were in Heldt camp, but I do remember scratching my head over it. It was another reminder to me on how little some folks know about the game of basketball.
Quote from: Goose on November 28, 2017, 07:21:34 AM
I do find the Luke support to be somewhat amusing. Late last season many on here felt Heldt was the answer. I wish the #5 spot was the only hole in the roster. To paraphrase 4ever "Wojo needs to up the talent level across the board". There is far more work to be done that most on here are willing to accept.
This team is just not tough enough physically. Not only that, 4 or 5 years into a rebuild and we are still "young"?
79Warrior
I do find the fact that we are still young to be a bit troubling. Actually tired of hearing that from the idiot announcers.
Quote from: 79Warrior on November 28, 2017, 10:31:36 AM
This team is just not tough enough physically. Not only that, 4 or 5 years into a rebuild and we are still "young"?
We have one senior and one junior. We are young.
Quote from: Goose on November 28, 2017, 11:16:08 AM
79Warrior
I do find the fact that we are still young to be a bit troubling. Actually tired of hearing that from the idiot announcers.
We ARE still young. We now have one senior and one junior. Once Froling is eligible, our 9 players will consist of 3 freshmen, 4 sophomores, 1 junior and 1 senior.
It's troubling that we are still young, but it's not an excuse. It's a fact.
MUeagle
It is a fact. It is like the Packers, always the youngest team in the league and most under the cap. If we are going to be young, lets have a bunch of one and done or two and done guys. Please note, I want this to be guys turning pro and not transferring that leave early.
Quote from: Goose on November 28, 2017, 11:38:56 AM
MUeagle
It is a fact. It is like the Packers, always the youngest team in the league and most under the cap. If we are going to be young, lets have a bunch of one and done or two and done guys. Please note, I want this to be guys turning pro and not transferring that leave early.
But the Packers win and they don't use being young or having injuries as an excuse.
Quote from: 79Warrior on November 28, 2017, 10:31:36 AM
This team is just not tough enough physically. Not only that, 4 or 5 years into a rebuild and we are still "young"?
I think there's a bit of a disconnect on this, but I agree that we should be older by now. We have one senior because of a transfer. We have one junior left from the first class. We are young, in large part, because Haanif Cheatham, Traci Carter, Sandy Cohen, Henry Ellenson, Gabe Levin, and Duane Wilson left. We are also young because Egor Koulechov, Kyle Washington, and Cameron Johnson went elsewhere and for the most part the staff hasn't targeted JUCOs. There has definitely been some trouble balancing the classes.
Next year we are currently scheduled to have:
1 Senior: Matt Heldt
5 Juniors: Markus Howard, Sam Hauser, Ed Morrow, Sacar Anim, Harry Froling
3 Sophomores: Theo John, Jamal Cain, Greg Elliott
3 Freshmen: Joey Hauser, Brendan Bailey, Ike Eke
Personally, I really hope to see a grad transfer point guard (probably made that obvious in the recruiting thread) and that would give us pretty good balance going forward. Losing 60% of the 2016 class certainly had an impact. The next two years we won't be young anymore, but it is taking awhile to get there.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 28, 2017, 12:50:26 PM
I think there's a bit of a disconnect on this, but I agree that we should be older by now. We have one senior because of a transfer. We have one junior left from the first class. We are young, in large part, because Haanif Cheatham, Traci Carter, Sandy Cohen, Henry Ellenson, Gabe Levin, and Duane Wilson left. We are also young because Egor Koulechov, Kyle Washington, and Cameron Johnson went elsewhere and for the most part the staff hasn't targeted JUCOs. There has definitely been some trouble balancing the classes.
Next year we are currently scheduled to have:
1 Senior: Matt Heldt
5 Juniors: Markus Howard, Sam Hauser, Ed Morrow, Sacar Anim, Harry Froling
3 Sophomores: Theo John, Jamal Cain, Greg Elliott
3 Freshmen: Joey Hauser, Brendan Bailey, Ike Eke
Personally, I really hope to see a grad transfer point guard (probably made that obvious in the recruiting thread) and that would give us pretty good balance going forward. Losing 60% of the 2016 class certainly had an impact. The next two years we won't be young anymore, but it is taking awhile to get there.
It will be concerning if Wojo can't get a decent grad transfer scoring guard to join in on that lineup. So thin on guards.
Quote from: warriorchick on November 28, 2017, 11:22:25 AM
We have one senior and one junior. We are young.
I get that. My point is he has been recruiting 4 years and we are still young. That is a problem. By now we should have been able to hang on to a few seniors and juniors. We are not.
Quote from: Goose on November 28, 2017, 11:38:56 AM
MUeagle
It is a fact. It is like the Packers, always the youngest team in the league and most under the cap. If we are going to be young, lets have a bunch of one and done or two and done guys. Please note, I want this to be guys turning pro and not transferring that leave early.
Hey, that's a great idea. Maybe you should tell Wojo so he can get right on that ::)
ATL MU Warrior
Many on here would not like a slew of one and done guy, hence my saying I would gladly take that model. Obviously it is not a model they are going to follow and I get that. So, to get back to the original point, why are we still young in year four of his tenure?
We were always going to be young this season. When Wojo took over Deonte Burton, Jajuan Johnson, John Dawson, and Luke Fischer were set to graduate the previous season. The only player set to be a senior was Sandy Cohen. Things obviously played out differently with Deonte and John transferring out and Katin transferring in but it still ended with the same result. Whenever you graduate three starters, your experience is likely to take a hit.
So yeah we are young in the fourth year. But we were old in the 3rd year and got back to the tourney. When we are old again the 5th year I expect an even better season. When we are super old in the 6th year I expect great results. If Wojo executes the way he has planned, we will never be this young again.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 28, 2017, 01:44:38 PM
We were always going to be young this season. When Wojo took over Deonte Burton, Jajuan Johnson, John Dawson, and Luke Fischer were set to graduate the previous season. The only player set to be a senior was Sandy Cohen. Things obviously played out differently with Deonte and John transferring out and Katin transferring in but it still ended with the same result. Whenever you graduate three starters, your experience is likely to take a hit.
So yeah we are young in the fourth year. But we were old in the 3rd year and got back to the tourney. When we are old again the 5th year I expect an even better season. When we are super old in the 6th year I expect great results. If Wojo executes the way he has planned, we will never be this young again.
"IF" is the operative word. Your outline, while reasonable, assumes nobody leaves. That has not been the situation the last 4 years.
Quote from: 79Warrior on November 28, 2017, 02:36:03 PM
"IF" is the operative word. Your outline, while reasonable, assumes nobody leaves. That has not been the situation the last 4 years.
Having a few three star players all from the Midwest might help keep that class together because they don't have people believing they're for sure nba material their whole lives.
Quote from: 79Warrior on November 28, 2017, 02:36:03 PM
"IF" is the operative word. Your outline, while reasonable, assumes nobody leaves. That has not been the situation the last 4 years.
This is true. I might be foolish but I see our key players like Heldt, M2N, Sammy, Morrow, Anim, Joey, and Bailey all staying. Those alone make us an old team. I don't know about the freshmen or Harry yet but I think most of them stay too. Don't worry, I knocked on wood.
Just thought it needed a bump.
I liked Otule when he was here, but because of his lack of vision you couldn't drive and dish to him for the dunk because he had trouble catching anything but a telegraphed pass to him in the post. Heldt does not have the vision trouble, of course, but he has the same issue were you cannot pass him the ball from a tricky angle or anything, because he will not handle it cleanly. That has repercussions.
nm
I thought Heldt would for sure give us 8-10pts and maybe 6 or more rebounds a game in the early
part of the season,he has to be a factor for our offense to work. He hasn't improved over last year
on defense either, can't jump!
We shoukd have the same 3-4 posters bitch about how young we r after every loss, it will magically make the players older
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on December 02, 2017, 04:48:59 PM
We shoukd have the same 3-4 posters bitch about how young we r after every loss, it will magically make the players older
You can distract all you want your post was still stupid
We need Froling to be good enough for at least 25 minutes a game if we want any chance at all to get in the tournament.
Heldt is a 5 pt /3 rb a game guy. Theo is light years behind Matt - I have seen no display of basketball skills at all yet this year from TJ. He can't be on the floor for more than 5 minutes a game.
We know Froling is better than Matt. We just don't know how much better yet.
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on December 02, 2017, 04:48:59 PM
We shoukd have the same 3-4 posters bitch about how young we r after every loss, it will magically make the players older
No, time will do that. Another season. Inexperience is a fact, not an excuse.
Quote from: 79Warrior on November 28, 2017, 10:31:36 AM
This team is just not tough enough physically. Not only that, 4 or 5 years into a rebuild and we are still "young"?
This is year 3 of the rebuild. The class that would be seniors now scattered when Buzz left - trying to take as many with him as he could. Wojo's first recruiting class was represented by two juniors and a redshirt sophomore until Haanif left. Two are playing, one was recruited over and left last year, one went the NBA route, and one was starting with the fourth most minutes on the team and still left for a hoped for bigger role elsewhere, possibly because he saw younger talent about to overtake him. We're still young because Wojo couldn't get it all done in one recruiting year and because he's recruiting better talent that's pushing aside some of the talent he first recruited.
Quote from: 4everCrean on December 02, 2017, 07:09:41 PM
This is year 3 of the rebuild. The class that would be seniors now scattered when Buzz left - trying to take as many with him as he could. Wojo's first recruiting class was represented by two juniors and a redshirt sophomore until Haanif left. Two are playing, one was recruited over and left last year, one went the NBA route, and one was starting with the fourth most minutes on the team and still left for a hoped for bigger role elsewhere, possibly because he saw younger talent about to overtake him. We're still young because Wojo couldn't get it all done in one recruiting year and because he's recruiting better talent that's pushing aside some of the talent he first recruited.
I agree with this. But we'd both better watch it or we'll be accused of "accepting mediocrity."
Not sure what I'm supposed to do if I don't accept mediocrity. I guess become a F%cky Fadger fan. Oh wait ...
Quote from: Jockey on December 02, 2017, 06:46:21 PM
We need Froling to be good enough for at least 25 minutes a game if we want any chance at all to get in the tournament.
Heldt is a 5 pt /3 rb a game guy. Theo is light years behind Matt - I have seen no display of basketball skills at all yet
this year from TJ. He can't be on the
floor for more than 5 minutes a game.
He's light years behind 0/6 from the field missing bunnies, bad defense, and low b ball IQ? K...
We know Froling is better than Matt. We just don't know how much better yet.