Interesting article focused on the U.S. News & World Report college rankings:
https://www.politico.com/interactives/2017/top-college-rankings-list-2017-us-news-investigation/ (https://www.politico.com/interactives/2017/top-college-rankings-list-2017-us-news-investigation/)
Not sure about the "helping to elect Donald Trump" part, but that article is spot on in many ways. Exactly why Marquette should be true to its mission and not chase the rankings.
There are many people in this country that want a meritocracy, of course that leads to others sarcastically saying "white dudes have it so bad". Those are the kinds of responses that get a guy like that elected.
Quote from: Sultan of Slap O' Fivin' on September 10, 2017, 11:57:33 AM
Not sure about the "helping to elect Donald Trump" part, but that article is spot on in many ways. Exactly why Marquette should be true to its mission and not chase the rankings.
Porky concurs with the Sultan on the Trump tie in. Seems like this author has an ax to grind. This is a well researched article that raises a lot of good points but those points could have been articulated just as easily without ever mentioning the Trump administration. The notion that US News and the controversy over college rankings in general is what qot Trump elected is laughable.
It would be nice if us news used more outgoing criteria in their methodology instead of incoming statistics to measure the quality of the universities. That's why people are going there in the first place so they can succeed in the real world.
Quote from: 4or5yearstojudge on September 10, 2017, 05:48:14 PM
There are many people in this country that want a meritocracy, of course that leads to others sarcastically saying "white dudes have it so bad". Those are the kinds of responses that get a guy like that elected.
"If you don't stop pointing out the inherent advantages that I have, I am going to vote for this guy because he says I'm a victim!!!"
Quote from: 4or5yearstojudge on September 10, 2017, 05:48:14 PM
There are many people in this country that want a meritocracy, of course that leads to others sarcastically saying "white dudes have it so bad". Those are the kinds of responses that get a guy like that elected.
Trump took some peoples' decades-long demand for
real meritocracy and spun it into white persecution. The sad part isn't that you're right (and you are right), it's that you appear to wear the swindling as a badge of honor.
Trump tie-in aside (and why would we be surprised, seeing as this came from a political website, and that the media has tied Trump to everything including the weather), this was a well thought-out article that explains exactly why the USNWR rankings are garbage in terms of determining which school is best for any particular student.
Really interesting article. Thanks for posting! It will be equally interesting to see where MU lands this year when the rankings come out tomorrow.
As I've stated many times on this board, I'm concerned the new data driven recruiting strategy which no doubt has been a huge success in meeting the enrollment goals and slightly increasing the yield, also pushed the acceptance rate up to 84% last year, which may be the highest of the top 100 National Universities. I know the academic profile of the incoming class hasn't deteriorated, and might even be stronger than it was a few years ago, but the negative perception of that figure, despite the underlying metrics, is not good. I support MU's efforts to diversify the socio economic diversity of its student body in keeping with its jesuit mission, but they need to figure out a way to do that without suffering the same fate as GA State, which has been unfairly punished. For whatver it's worth, I've worked with many GA state grads over the years, some very closely, and they have all been bright capable professionals so clearly that institution is doing exactly what it's supposed to do. Still, I wholeheartedly reject the notion that rankings don't matter. They absolutely do and as the article stated rightly or wrongly, the careers of many higher education administrators in the country hang in the balance.
Hopefully MU can maintain and maybe even increase it's current national ranking, with their current strategy. I applaud their efforts and if they can, more power to them, but I'm very skeptical they'll be able to maintain their position, with the current enrollment strategy and if we fall into the 90's or god forbid, out of the top 100, I think the administration and the board need to make some significant strategic adjustments. Hopefully my skepticism is unwarranted and I'm dead wrong. This is one topic where I'll gladly eat crow if I'm wrong.
It's easy to dismiss rankings and say they don't matter, until they do, and MU should ignore them at their peril.
Perception is reality. Rankin's rule, hey?
Quote from: Disco Hippie on September 11, 2017, 07:51:54 AM
Really interesting article. Thanks for posting! It will be equally interesting to see where MU lands this year when the rankings come out tomorrow.
As I've stated many times on this board, I'm concerned the new data driven recruiting strategy which no doubt has been a huge success in meeting the enrollment goals and slightly increasing the yield, also pushed the acceptance rate up to 84% last year, which may be the highest of the top 100 National Universities. I know the academic profile of the incoming class hasn't deteriorated, and might even be stronger than it was a few years ago, but the negative perception of that figure, despite the underlying metrics, is not good. I support MU's efforts to diversify the socio economic diversity of its student body in keeping with its jesuit mission, but they need to figure out a way to do that without suffering the same fate as GA State, which has been unfairly punished. For whatver it's worth, I've worked with many GA state grads over the years, some very closely, and they have all been bright capable professionals so clearly that institution is doing exactly what it's supposed to do. Still, I wholeheartedly reject the notion that rankings don't matter. They absolutely do and as the article stated rightly or wrongly, the careers of many higher education administrators in the country hang in the balance.
Hopefully MU can maintain and maybe even increase it's current national ranking, with their current strategy. I applaud their efforts and if they can, more power to them, but I'm very skeptical they'll be able to maintain their position, with the current enrollment strategy and if we fall into the 90's or god forbid, out of the top 100, I think the administration and the board need to make some significant strategic adjustments. Hopefully my skepticism is unwarranted and I'm dead wrong. This is one topic where I'll gladly eat crow if I'm wrong.
It's easy to dismiss rankings and say they don't matter, until they do, and MU should ignore them at their peril.
What I believe should happen (and it would take some really big stones to pull off) is to have all of the schools who believe that the USNWR rankings are bullcrap to band together and refuse to participate - they don't disclose any of their statistics to USNWR, discourage their professors from participating in the peer rankings, etc.
That would quickly make those rankings irrelevant.
Great article. Here's a factor I had not previously considered.
'— Having a lower acceptance rate, which many colleges have sought to achieve by leaning more on early decision admissions; this hurts lower-income students who apply to more schools in order to compare financial aid packages.'
So Marquette has responded by initiating rolling decisioning as analytics demonstrates that the pool of applicants really doesn't change much from year to year meaning the old model of waiting until all the apps are in and then eyeballing the pool is outdated. This, and changes with financial aid that allows families to base their financial aid package off of last years numbers (rather than having to wait until February of their HS senior year) enables MU to put out a financial aid offer many months earlier than before. All this helps families have considerably more time to get their ducks in a row regarding the dreaded college bill and for MU to recruit those families/kids over a much longer window. I applaud this initiative.
Quote from: Disco Hippie on September 11, 2017, 07:51:54 AM
Really interesting article. Thanks for posting! It will be equally interesting to see where MU lands this year when the rankings come out tomorrow.
As I've stated many times on this board, I'm concerned the new data driven recruiting strategy which no doubt has been a huge success in meeting the enrollment goals and slightly increasing the yield, also pushed the acceptance rate up to 84% last year, which may be the highest of the top 100 National Universities. I know the academic profile of the incoming class hasn't deteriorated, and might even be stronger than it was a few years ago, but the negative perception of that figure, despite the underlying metrics, is not good. I support MU's efforts to diversify the socio economic diversity of its student body in keeping with its jesuit mission, but they need to figure out a way to do that without suffering the same fate as GA State, which has been unfairly punished. For whatver it's worth, I've worked with many GA state grads over the years, some very closely, and they have all been bright capable professionals so clearly that institution is doing exactly what it's supposed to do. Still, I wholeheartedly reject the notion that rankings don't matter. They absolutely do and as the article stated rightly or wrongly, the careers of many higher education administrators in the country hang in the balance.
Hopefully MU can maintain and maybe even increase it's current national ranking, with their current strategy. I applaud their efforts and if they can, more power to them, but I'm very skeptical they'll be able to maintain their position, with the current enrollment strategy and if we fall into the 90's or god forbid, out of the top 100, I think the administration and the board need to make some significant strategic adjustments. Hopefully my skepticism is unwarranted and I'm dead wrong. This is one topic where I'll gladly eat crow if I'm wrong.
It's easy to dismiss rankings and say they don't matter, until they do, and MU should ignore them at their peril.
Why does it matter if they fall out of the top 100 if they still have strong enrollment and are fiscally healthy?
This isn't a scoreboard. The end game isn't the rankings. It's the education.
Quote from: Sultan of Slap O' Fivin' on September 11, 2017, 08:54:04 AM
Why does it matter if they fall out of the top 100 if they still have strong enrollment and are fiscally healthy?
This isn't a scoreboard. The end game isn't the rankings. It's the education.
Unfortunately, I don't think you are ever going to get away from rankings as a tool for prospective students to evaluate universities. Because of this, I believe the best action to take is to push to make the rankings more relevant - like focusing on outcomes rather than inputs.
Which school is better - the school that admits an at-risk kid with decent grades and no money and in four years, produces someone with a successful career, or one that admits a kid whose dad is an alum and a 7-figure donor and manages to get him out the door after six years of partying in the frat house?
Quote from: warriorchick on September 11, 2017, 09:19:23 AM
Unfortunately, I don't think you are ever going to get away from rankings as a tool for prospective students to evaluate universities. Because of this, I believe the best action to take is to push to make the rankings more relevant - like focusing on outcomes rather than inputs.
Which school is better - the school that admits a at-risk kid with decent grades and no money and in four years, produces someone with a successful career, or one that admits a kid whose dad is an alum and a 7-figure donor and manages to get him out the door after six years of partying in the frat house?
Oh yes. I agree. I was simply talking about the USN&WR rankings.
Quote from: warriorchick on September 11, 2017, 09:19:23 AM
Which school is better - the school that admits a at-risk kid with decent grades and no money and in four years, produces someone with a successful career, or one that admits a kid whose dad is an alum and a 7-figure donor and manages to get him out the door after six years of partying in the frat house?
If Marquette is better than I guess its the school that does both? ;D
Quote from: Sultan of Slap O' Fivin' on September 11, 2017, 09:20:59 AM
Oh yes. I agree. I was simply talking about the USN&WR rankings.
That's my point. That is what the rankings should evaluate.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on September 11, 2017, 09:22:08 AM
If Marquette is better than I guess its the school that does both? ;D
Absolutely, but the article says that the rankings favor the elite schools that are skewed towards the latter.
Let's be honest - if Harvard or Princeton wanted, they could fill their next freshman class with 100% disadvantaged, but qualified students. They can also afford to give all of those students full-ride scholarships. Why don't they? Because they don't want to piss off rich alumni? Their endowments already have more money than they can spend.
Quote from: warriorchick on September 11, 2017, 09:28:52 AM
Absolutely, but the article says that the rankings favor the elite schools that are skewed towards the latter.
Let's be honest - if Harvard or Princeton wanted, they could fill their next freshman class with 100% disadvantaged, but qualified students. They can also afford to give all of those students full-ride scholarships. Why don't they? Because they don't want to piss off rich alumni? Their endowments already have more money than they can spend.
Oh I am on the same page as you and Sultan. I just like poking fun at "kids whose dads are alums and 7-figure donors and manage to get them out the door after six years of partying in the frat house"
2018 rankings out today
https://www.usnews.com/info/blogs/press-room/articles/2017-09-12/us-news-releases-2018-best-colleges-rankings
Indiana, MU and Boulder all tied at #90
Rankin's matta grately, ai na?
Quote from: 1.21 Jigawatts on September 12, 2017, 05:10:57 AM
2018 rankings out today
https://www.usnews.com/info/blogs/press-room/articles/2017-09-12/us-news-releases-2018-best-colleges-rankings
Indiana, MU and Boulder all tied at #90
Interesting. Not bad company, though 90 sounds low. Is that where we usually are? Does anyone have historical data?
I agree with others that these rankings are not based on useful metrics. But the unfortunate truth is that they matter for enrollment.
EDIT: Did a quick search and discovered we were
65th in 2014 and
86th last year. Quite a drop from 2014.
Quote from: Babybluejeans on September 12, 2017, 09:02:49 AM
I agree with others that these rankings are not based on useful metrics. But the unfortunate truth is that they matter for enrollment.
No they don't. Maybe 15 years ago that was the case, but student recruiting has become much more targeted and refined since then.
Quote from: Sultan of Slap O' Fivin' on September 12, 2017, 09:05:30 AM
No they don't. Maybe 15 years ago that was the case, but student recruiting has become much more targeted and refined since then.
Hm, 15 years ago is about the time I was looking at colleges. If you're right then I'm happy to hear it because I thought the faculty and educational experience at Marquette was absolutely outstanding - in many instances better than what friends said they experienced at top-tier schools.
Quote from: Babybluejeans on September 12, 2017, 09:08:31 AM
Hm, 15 years ago is about the time I was looking at colleges. If you're right then I'm happy to hear it because I thought the faculty and educational experience at Marquette was absolutely outstanding - in many instances better than what friends said they experienced at top-tier schools.
I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Rankings, like USN&WR, meant a lot more 15 years ago then they do now. There has been such a proliferation of rankings, that there is a large segment of students (and their parents) that simply tune them out.
It was also a methodology meant for more of a "mass recruiting" time. When schools would cast a wide net for students. Now student recruitment is all about efficiency and targeting. MU has embraced this completely. So have many other schools, public and private, large and small.
Look at Marquette's undergraduate admissions webpage. They never mention rankings. (I personally think the page is too busy with too many links, but whatever...)
What's interesting Sultan is that many now view USN&WR as 'fake news' in the sense that folks recognize the artificial manipulation that can take place and that choosing a school ranked 10 spots higher doesn't make it a better place for an individual kid. Fit, fit, fit. Not ranking, ranking ranking.
Quote from: Babybluejeans on September 12, 2017, 09:02:49 AM
Interesting. Not bad company, though 90 sounds low. Is that where we usually are? Does anyone have historical data?
I agree with others that these rankings are not based on useful metrics. But the unfortunate truth is that they matter for enrollment.
EDIT: Did a quick search and discovered we were 65th in 2014 and 86th last year. Quite a drop from 2014.
In 2015 US news dropped the category of national liberal arts university and collapsed into the broader category of national University. That's why we fell back 20 spots.
Villanova was always one of the highly rated liberal arts universities that moved into the broader category around 50.
Quote from: Babybluejeans on September 12, 2017, 09:02:49 AM
Interesting. Not bad company, though 90 sounds low. Is that where we usually are? Does anyone have historical data?
I agree with others that these rankings are not based on useful metrics. But the unfortunate truth is that they matter for enrollment.
EDIT: Did a quick search and discovered we were 65th in 2014 and 86th last year. Quite a drop from 2014.
What is hurting us the most is the acceptance rate of 74%, much higher than it has been. We should be below 60%.
Like it or not these ranking do matter in hiring in the more exclusive areas like finance and engineering. Many of the elite Silicon Valley and Wall Street firms won't touch a MU grad out of college, regardless of their qualifications, based on college ranking alone. We need to do better. And, a higher academic ranking can pay dividends in hoops recruiting.
Quote from: Babybluejeans on September 12, 2017, 09:02:49 AM
Interesting. Not bad company, though 90 sounds low. Is that where we usually are? Does anyone have historical data?
I agree with others that these rankings are not based on useful metrics. But the unfortunate truth is that they matter for enrollment.
EDIT: Did a quick search and discovered we were 65th in 2014 and 86th last year. Quite a drop from 2014.
Pretty sure we were 75th in 2014, not 65th, and 75 is the highest we've ever been. I could be wrong but that's my recollection so if my recollection is accurate the drop isn't as drastic as it seems. As another poster mentioned, the number of institutions that qualify for "National University" status increased by about 35 schools a year or two ago. Villanova was one of those that moved up to that category so that doesn't help. Still, some schools managed to advance as much as we dropped despite the increase in schools that qualify for National University status. IU and CU aren't bad company, but we can and should do better. We are better! To say these rankings don't matter is a fool's errand and the further MU drops, the more difficult it will be to attract and retain the same caliber of student they've been accustomed to, but for some reason the current administration has chosen to give the finger to US News and and go in a different direction. I don't support their current approach and strongly believe MU needs to take these rankings more seriously, but I also don't think MU should solely focus on increasing their ranking and manipulate their stats to the same extent that Northeastern U in Boston did a few years ago either. It's a balance. As the Sultan eloquently articulated yesterday, as long as MU meets their enrollment goals, remains fiscally healthy, and continues to churn out productive members of society, then they're doing what a university is supposed to do.
Quote from: Disco Hippie on September 12, 2017, 02:28:49 PM
Pretty sure we were 75th in 2014, not 65th, and 75 is the highest we've ever been. I could be wrong but that's my recollection so if my recollection is accurate the drop isn't as drastic as it seems. As another poster mentioned, the number of institutions that qualify for "National University" status increased by about 35 schools a year or two ago. Villanova was one of those that moved up to that category so that doesn't help. Still, some schools managed to advance as much as we dropped despite the increase in schools that qualify for National University status. IU and CU aren't bad company, but we can and should do better. We are better! To say these rankings don't matter is a fool's errand and the further MU drops, the more difficult it will be to attract and retain the same caliber of student they've been accustomed to, but for some reason the current administration has chosen to give the finger to US News and and go in a different direction. I don't support their current approach and strongly believe MU needs to take these rankings more seriously, but I also don't think MU should solely focus on increasing their ranking and manipulate their stats to the same extent that Northeastern U in Boston did a few years ago either. It's a balance. As the Sultan eloquently articulated yesterday, as long as MU meets their enrollment goals, remains fiscally healthy, and continues to churn out productive members of society, then they're doing what a university is supposed to do.
Falling this far in a few short years is a complete embarrassment. As i have said many times in other threads, the administration is taking MU down a path that is going to lead to the University being Chicago State's North Campus.
I have recruited a number of kids to the school and beat out places like Boston University in the past. However, with them at 37 and us at 90 it makes it significantly harder to make the sale.
The people this abysmal performance hurts the most are the current students looking for jobs. Takes away a lot of the cachet of their degree.
I knew the minute Lovell abandoned the strategic plan to improve the US News ranking we were headed down hill.
The trustees of the University need to step up and advocate for a stronger emphasis on rankings.
I completely disagree with the strategy and direction of the school. It is taking a once proud institution and putting in directly in harms way unnecessarily.
Quote from: Herman Cain on September 12, 2017, 05:28:15 PM
Falling this far in a few short years is a complete embarrassment. As i have said many times in other threads, the administration is taking MU down a path that is going to lead to the University being Chicago State's North Campus.
I have recruited a number of kids to the school and beat out places like Boston University in the past. However, with them at 37 and us at 90 it makes it significantly harder to make the sale.
The people this abysmal performance hurts the most are the current students looking for jobs. Takes away a lot of the cachet of their degree.
I knew the minute Lovell abandoned the strategic plan to improve the US News ranking we were headed down hill.
The trustees of the University need to step up and advocate for a stronger emphasis on rankings.
I completely disagree with the strategy and direction of the school. It is taking a once proud institution and putting in directly in harms way unnecessarily.
Honest question, and please answer it:
Why do you care so much about a school that you didn't even attend?
Quote from: warriorchick on September 12, 2017, 06:43:04 PM
Honest question, and please answer it:
Why do you care so much about a school that you didn't even attend?
I know you have done a lot for the school in a formal way and have applauded you and Mr. Warriorchick for your efforts . You shouldn't make assumptions about people just because they follow paths that are different from yours. The world is full of people who took circuitous routes to the top. I learned along the way that everything is not black and white when it comes to the most successful people, as they see things in a more fluid way .
Marquette had a place in my life and always will. I just have a materially different view of its future trajectory and the means by which it gets there than you. In part that is because I was treated like garbage when I started off in life and had to plow through enormous barriers( Yes I know everyone does in their own way). So my view of what is achievable and aspirational for MU may be different from yours.
My view is MU should be moving in the direction of Georgetown and BC. Your view is firmly in the camp that will lodge us south of SLU and Loyola. Who knows maybe your right and I am terribly misguided in my notion. I ate crow on several occasions on this message board , so at least I am willing to eat my own cooking.
Quote from: Herman Cain on September 12, 2017, 07:10:28 PM
I know you have done a lot for the school in a formal way and have applauded you and Mr. Warriorchick for your efforts . You shouldn't make assumptions about people just because they follow paths that are different from yours. The world is full of people who took circuitous routes to the top. I learned along the way that everything is not black and white when it comes to the most successful people, as they see things in a more fluid way .
Marquette had a place in my life and always will. I just have a materially different view of its future trajectory and the means by which it gets their than you. In part that is because I was treated like garbage when I started off in life and had to plow through enormous barriers( Yes I know everyone does in their own way). So my view of what is achievable and aspirational for MU may be different from yours.
My view is MU should be moving in the direction of Georgetown and BC. Your view is firmly in the camp that will lodge us south of SLU and Loyola. Who knows maybe your right and I am terribly misguided in my notion. I ate crow on several occasions on this message board , so at least I am willing to eat my own cooking.
That's over the top!
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/024/724/ban_hammer.jpg?1257015625)
When I applied to Marquette (1965) and was accepted I was not offered financial aid (I was an only child) even though I was from a typical blue collar family. And though my dad was an electrician and my mom was a factory worker they were still able to save enough to pay my way through MU. I doubt they could afford MU today. I even wonder if my 529 for my grand daughter will be enough in 2029 the way college costs are rising; far exceeding inflation.
I don't think most parents are going to look at rankings; they are going to look at the price tag. I think my grand daughter will attend community college her first two years then go and get her degree at a 4 year school. Most community colleges here in New Jersey have 100 percent credit transfer to Rutgers and Rutgers even allows them to continue taking some upper level courses at the community college, thus essentially cutting the cost of school almost in half; but if she really wanted to go to MU I would not discourage her as I think living away from home can teach you independence and self reliance and we will find the money so she could go. I still love MU and it would be the only school I would consider spending the big bucks.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on September 12, 2017, 08:02:30 PM
When I applied to Marquette (1965) and was accepted I was not offered financial aid (I was an only child) even though I was from a typical blue collar family. And though my dad was an electrician and my mom was a factory worker they were still able to save enough to pay my way through MU. I doubt they could afford MU today. I even wonder if my 529 for my grand daughter will be enough in 2029 the way college costs are rising; far exceeding inflation.
I don't think most parents are going to look at rankings; they are going to look at the price tag. I think my grand daughter will attend community college her first two years then go and get her degree at a 4 year school. Most community colleges here in New Jersey have 100 percent credit transfer to Rutgers and Rutgers even allows them to continue taking some upper level courses at the community college, thus essentially cutting the cost of school almost in half; but if she really wanted to go to MU I would not discourage her as I think living away from home can teach you independence and self reliance and we will find the money so she could go. I still love MU and it would be the only school I would consider spending the big bucks.
Yet four year college enrollment, at public and private universities, keeps growing even though costs rise higher than inflation.
Quote from: Herman Cain on September 12, 2017, 07:10:28 PM
I know you have done a lot for the school in a formal way and have applauded you and Mr. Warriorchick for your efforts . You shouldn't make assumptions about people just because they follow paths that are different from yours. The world is full of people who took circuitous routes to the top. I learned along the way that everything is not black and white when it comes to the most successful people, as they see things in a more fluid way .
Marquette had a place in my life and always will. I just have a materially different view of its future trajectory and the means by which it gets their than you. In part that is because I was treated like garbage when I started off in life and had to plow through enormous barriers( Yes I know everyone does in their own way). So my view of what is achievable and aspirational for MU may be different from yours.
My view is MU should be moving in the direction of Georgetown and BC. Your view is firmly in the camp that will lodge us south of SLU and Loyola. Who knows maybe your right and I am terribly misguided in my notion. I ate crow on several occasions on this message board , so at least I am willing to eat my own cooking.
Huh? Are you from Hibbing?
MU is #90 in the rankings released today.
Here is a selected list of schools behind MU.
#94 Drexel University
#94 Saint Louis University
#97 University of Oklahoma
#103 Auburn University
#103 Illinois Institute of Technology
#103 Loyola University Chicago
#103 University of Oregon
#103 University of South Carolina
#103 University of Tennessee
#110 University of Alabama
#110 University of San Francisco
#110 University of Utah
#115 Arizona State University--Tempe
#115 Iowa State University
#115 Temple University
#115 University of Kansas
#120 The Catholic University of America
#120 DePaul University
#120 Duquesne University
#120 University of Missouri
#124 Colorado State University
#124 Seton Hall University
#124 University of Arizona
#124 University of Dayton
#124 University of Nebraska--Lincoln
#133 Louisiana State University--Baton Rouge
#133 The New School
#133 University of Arkansas
#133 University of Cincinnati
#133 University of Kentucky
#140 George Mason University
#140 New Jersey Institute of Technology
#140 San Diego State University
#140 University of South Florida
#140 Washington State University
#145 Kansas State University
#145 Oregon State University
#145 University of Illinois--Chicago
#145 University of Mississippi
#151 Ohio University
#156 Oklahoma State University
#159 Illinois State University
#159 University of Alabama--Birmingham
#159 University of Maryland--Baltimore County
#165 St. John's University
#165 University of Louisville
#171 Mississippi State University
#171 Virginia Commonwealth University
#176 Kent State University
#176 Texas Tech University
#181 University of Wyoming
#187 Ball State University
#187 Pace University
#187 West Virginia University
#192 University of Houston
#192 University of New Mexico
#192 University of North Dakota
#198 New Mexico State University
#198 North Dakota State University
#198 University of North Carolina--Charlotte
#202 Bowling Green State University
#202 California State University--Fullerton
#202 University of Nevada--Reno
#207 Central Michigan University
#207 Western Michigan University
#216 Southern Illinois University--Carbondale
#216 Utah State University
#223 Georgia State University
#223 University of South Dakota
The following schools are listed as "Ranked Not Published"
Boise State University
Cardinal Stritch University
Cleveland State University
Eastern Michigan University
Georgia Southern University
Indiana State University
Jackson State University
Liberty University
Middle Tennessee State University
National Louis University
Northern Illinois University
North Carolina A&T State University
Northern Arizona University
Old Dominion University
Portland State University
University of Akron
University of Louisiana--Monroe
University of Memphis
University of Nebraska--Omaha
University of Nevada--Las Vegas
University of New Orleans
University of Southern Mississippi
University of South Alabama
University of Texas--San Antonio
University of Wisconsin--Milwaukee
MU's US News Ranking History
http://publicuniversityhonors.com/2016/09/18/average-u-s-news-rankings-for-126-universities-2010-1017/
2007 = 81
2008 = 82
2009 = 77
2010 = 84
2011 = 75
2012 = 82
2013 = 83
2014 = 75
2015 = 76
2016 = 86
2017 = 86
2018 = 90
Quote from: Sultan of Slap O' Fivin' on September 12, 2017, 08:07:00 PM
Yet four year college enrollment, at public and private universities, keeps growing even though costs rise higher than inflation.
Is that freshman enrollment or just enrollment? To day we live in a society where debt is easy to come by, while saving is punished. To me the worst thing you can do to your child is saddle them with a large debt payment right out of school. I wonder how many really think is that degree I just earned worth the ROI.
Quote from: Sultan of Slap O' Fivin' on September 12, 2017, 09:15:36 AM
I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Rankings, like USN&WR, meant a lot more 15 years ago then they do now. There has been such a proliferation of rankings, that there is a large segment of students (and their parents) that simply tune them out.
It was also a methodology meant for more of a "mass recruiting" time. When schools would cast a wide net for students. Now student recruitment is all about efficiency and targeting. MU has embraced this completely. So have many other schools, public and private, large and small.
Look at Marquette's undergraduate admissions webpage. They never mention rankings. (I personally think the page is too busy with too many links, but whatever...)
No, I understood exactly what you were saying. My response simply explained that when my cohorts and I were looking 15 years ago, we
did care about rankings, and that I'm glad there's been a shift away from that in favor of tailored marketing because MU provides an excellent opportunity to folks for whom the school fundamentals (size, city, educational environment, etc.) are a good fit. That includes friends who, 15 years ago, chose other schools because of rankings inasmuch as we cared about that stuff.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on September 13, 2017, 07:00:44 AM
Is that freshman enrollment or just enrollment? To day we live in a society where debt is easy to come by, while saving is punished. To me the worst thing you can do to your child is saddle them with a large debt payment right out of school. I wonder how many really think is that degree I just earned worth the ROI.
I made my kids take out student loans as part of financing their education. They seem to understand why...
https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/02/11/study-income-gap-between-young-college-and-high-school-grads-widens
"Among millennials ages 25 to 32, median annual earnings for full-time working college-degree holders are $17,500 greater than for those with high school diplomas only. That gap steadily widened for each successive generation in the latter half of the 20th century."
I was pretty surprised that "undergraduate academic reputation" is only worth 22.5% of a school's overall score. Because of the way this stuff is marketed, people who just want to look at rankings without knowing the numbers behind them probably put that correlation closer to 100% in their minds. I remember looking at the rankings when I was applying to schools and but don't remember ever moving past that into the specifics.
Quote from: Warrior Code on September 13, 2017, 09:56:22 AM
I was pretty surprised that "undergraduate academic reputation" is only worth 22.5% of a school's overall score. Because of the way this stuff is marketed, people who just want to look at rankings without knowing the numbers behind them probably put that correlation closer to 100% in their minds. I remember looking at the rankings when I was applying to schools and but don't remember ever moving past that into the specifics.
Depends on how they measure that. I think weight it should be lower, if not a non-factor. It is a purely subjective measurement, and may or may not be supported by actual experiences of the folks giving the opinion.
If you were interviewing a job, and the part of the selection criteria was your reputation, wouldn't you want to know if they only took into consideration the opinions of folks who have actually worked with you in some capacity? What if they just asked around if anyone had heard of you and got basically, "Yeah, I heard he is a good guy" or "Yeah, I met Warrior Code at an industry function once and he was a drunken jag at the cocktail reception".
They used to measure it by sending surveys to the presidents of all the colleges and universities in the country. Not sure if that's still the case.
It is a complete joke.
Quote from: 1.21 Jigawatts on September 12, 2017, 09:44:21 AM
In 2015 US news dropped the category of national liberal arts university and collapsed into the broader category of national University. That's why we fell back 20 spots.
Villanova was always one of the highly rated liberal arts universities that moved into the broader category around 50.
Dude, what? No
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-liberal-arts-colleges
Some schools switched categories, e.g., Nova, but not all schools.
Quote from: Sultan of Slap O' Fivin' on September 13, 2017, 10:17:13 AM
They used to measure it by sending surveys to the presidents of all the colleges and universities in the country. Not sure if that's still the case.
It is a complete joke.
+1
There is a feedback issue there as well. President X rates school Y highly. X jumps in rankings. President of Y ranks school X even higher the next time and so on. And this feedback issue is completely independent of the fact that many of the admin across schools know each other, especially at the top schools.
Quote from: Sultan of Slap O' Fivin' on September 13, 2017, 10:17:13 AM
They used to measure it by sending surveys to the presidents of all the colleges and universities in the country. Not sure if that's still the case.
It is a complete joke.
And I would not be surprised if there was organized, yet unofficial, mutual back-scratching agreements in place for this.
Quote from: Sultan of Slap O' Fivin' on September 13, 2017, 09:24:26 AM
I made my kids take out student loans as part of financing their education. They seem to understand why...
https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/02/11/study-income-gap-between-young-college-and-high-school-grads-widens
"Among millennials ages 25 to 32, median annual earnings for full-time working college-degree holders are $17,500 greater than for those with high school diplomas only. That gap steadily widened for each successive generation in the latter half of the 20th century."
I think that is true for an advanced degree which is lumped in that statistic. I am sure the difference between those without a BS/BA and those with is probably not as great. I know some diesel mechanics, plumbers, and HVACs who are making really good money and people with BA s who are making a lot less than those folks. Don't get me wrong, a college education is important, just make sure it makes you marketable when you start your working career.
Quote from: warriorchick on September 12, 2017, 06:43:04 PM
Honest question, and please answer it:
Why do you care so much about a school that you didn't even attend?
In fairness to MUFNY, I know quite a few MUHS alums who did not attend Marquette University, yet still have a particular fondness for it.
Quote from: Eldon on September 13, 2017, 11:12:25 AM
In fairness to MUFNY, I know quite a few MUHS alums who did not attend Marquette University, yet still have a particular fondness for it.
Do any of them go on a message board with detailed criticisms about everything that they are doing wrong in terms if their long-term academic plans or student admissions?
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on September 12, 2017, 02:07:30 PM
What is hurting us the most is the acceptance rate of 74%, much higher than it has been. We should be below 60%.
Like it or not these ranking do matter in hiring in the more exclusive areas like finance and engineering. Many of the elite Silicon Valley and Wall Street firms won't touch a MU grad out of college, regardless of their qualifications, based on college ranking alone. We need to do better. And, a higher academic ranking can pay dividends in hoops recruiting.
Thank You Billy! You speak the truth! Believe it or not, that 74% figure is outdated and it was actually 84% the most recent year. Don't believe me? Just click on the attached link and scroll to page 6 of the PDF. The stats are right there for everyone to see themselves.
http://mu.edu/oira/documents/MU-CDS-1617-Final.pdf
The university may as well just adopt an open enrollment policy because they're already about as close to it as they can get! Is that an unfair exaggeration since MU is only recruiting students that meet their criteria and already are highly likely to be accepted in the first place? Yes absolutely, but it doesn't matter and I'll tell you why.
The average incoming standardized test scores and GPA's of the incoming freshmen class could be the highest they've ever been in the school's history, but if they accepted 84% of everyone who applied, that stat sticks out like a sore thumb and no one pays attention to the underlying metrics behind it. It's not fair, and administrators are right to say as much, but they're wrong to ignore the impact that having an acceptance rate that high has had on the Marquette brand.
MU has improved in virtually every other metric US News measures in the last 5 years except the acceptance rate, and despite their improvement in other metrics, the low acceptance rate is the ONLY issue that's diminishing the brand. There's a direct correlation between our increasing acceptance rate and decreasing ranking that is indisputable. What is unfathomable to me is why no one in the administration or on the BOT seems to care about this and dismisses as irrelevant out of hand.
Where due University of Phoenix and DeVry University rank, hey?
Quote from: muwarrior69 on September 13, 2017, 11:05:40 AM
I think that is true for an advanced degree which is lumped in that statistic. I am sure the difference between those without a BS/BA and those with is probably not as great. I know some diesel mechanics, plumbers, and HVACs who are making really good money and people with BA s who are making a lot less than those folks. Don't get me wrong, a college education is important, just make sure it makes you marketable when you start your working career.
Well sure if you're going to compare low end BA jobs with high end non-BA jobs, you can make the stats say what you want them to.
But the fact is that the averages say that most people make up the marginal cost of their student loans within a year or two.
Quote from: Eldon on September 13, 2017, 10:30:19 AM
Dude, what? No
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-liberal-arts-colleges
Some schools switched categories, e.g., Nova, but not all schools.
yes ... the switched out a bunch of schools to the national university category which pushed down MU several spots in 2015. My bad for suggesting that the entire category was eliminated, it was not, it only had several highly rated members moved.
Question - West Point and the Naval Academy are still in the national liberal arts category. I think they should be in the national university category. If/when they move, I think they are both top 20, if not top 10 Universities.
Thoughts?
Quote from: 1.21 Jigawatts on September 13, 2017, 02:06:14 PM
...My bad for suggesting that the entire category was eliminated, it was not, it only had several highly rated members moved...
"Suggesting." lol
You'll always be a favorite, Heisy.
Quote from: 1.21 Jigawatts on September 13, 2017, 02:06:14 PM
yes ... the switched out a bunch of schools to the national university category which pushed down MU several spots in 2015. My bad for suggesting that the entire category was eliminated, it was not, it only had several highly rated members moved.
Question - West Point and the Naval Academy are still in the national liberal arts category. I think they should be in the national university category. If/when they move, I think they are both top 20, if not top 10 Universities.
Thoughts?
To be sure, the classification is neither arbitrary nor does it belong to USWNR. It's an official classification from the Carnegie Foundation (http://carnegieclassifications.iu.edu/)
The classifications are based on data, not "eyeballing it." Thus, West Point and Navy are liberal arts colleges because they meet the official criteria, e.g., the majority of their majors are in a liberal arts field, they have very few graduate/professional programs, etc.
Quote from: 1.21 Jigawatts on September 13, 2017, 02:06:14 PM
yes ... the switched out a bunch of schools to the national university category which pushed down MU several spots in 2015. My bad for suggesting that the entire category was eliminated, it was not, it only had several highly rated members moved.
Question - West Point and the Naval Academy are still in the national liberal arts category. I think they should be in the national university category. If/when they move, I think they are both top 20, if not top 10 Universities.
Thoughts?
Well seen as how neither of them are even in the top 10 of the national liberal arts category....no