Why is one celebrated and the other demonized? First of all, this board's primary scold regarding JUCOs is on hiatus, hanging out at sporting events and inspiring his like-minded friends with similar writing styles to troll. So let us set that aside for a moment.
Neither one is a long term answer. One fills a need for one year, one for two.
The grad transfer already has his degree, so academics aren't as large a concern.
It is easier to project how a 5th year D1 player will do than an anonymous JUCO
Does anyone have the stats on how many grad transfers actually get their graduate degree? Is the graduate degree thing an air quotes myth, or do they actually get one? Is it just a sham in the end that certain coaches know how to exploit?
JUCO's have been part of the MU culture for 40 years. The standards have been tightened by MU's admin. Fair or not fair?
I get that Wojo doesn't have the JUCO contacts that Buzz did. Is he merely an early adopter of what is going to be a widespread trend? Are graduate transfers going to be part of the culture going forward or is this just a short term fix?
Is this just a different type of squirmy? The new reality? Or is the NCAA going to have put the genie back in the bottle?
I don't care where they come from as long as they can put the ball in the hoop.
Fairly certain Lockett got his degree from MU
I think it mostly has to do with APR requirements. So many JUCOs, especially given Marquette's lack of a Phys Ed degree, have a tough time staying on course to graduate, at least in 2 years. Have we had some success? Sure, but mainly with three year guys like DJO and Jimmy Butler. Jameel McKay would've been okay too, but remember that Marquette was working with him and his JUCO to make sure that he was on track throughout his sophomore year.
With grad transfers, there's no such worry. They already graduated, and all you have to do is get them credits to stay on track for a graduate degree that they almost certainly won't complete (nor have to complete) in their one year.
With how the NCAA has cracked down and placed tournament bans, it's not that surprising that MU has shied away from JUCOs. If there were a more streamlined degree program for them in place here, or if there were better work done by the JUCO basketball producing schools to keep their kids on track to graduate once they go to a four-year, it might be easier and more palatable to Marquette's administration. But as it is, I'm pretty sure there's a reason Wojo has been very selective about the JUCOs he offered. The last one we went hard after was Maurice O'Field, and like DJO and JFB, he was another three-year guy.
It's all about the APR.
Quote from: tower912 on April 03, 2017, 01:13:12 PM
Why is one celebrated and the other demonized? First of all, this board's primary scold regarding JUCOs is on hiatus, hanging out at sporting events and inspiring his like-minded friends with similar writing styles to troll. So let us set that aside for a moment.
Neither one is a long term answer. One fills a need for one year, one for two.
The grad transfer already has his degree, so academics aren't as large a concern.
It is easier to project how a 5th year D1 player will do than an anonymous JUCO
Does anyone have the stats on how many grad transfers actually get their graduate degree? Is the graduate degree thing an air quotes myth, or do they actually get one? Is it just a sham in the end that certain coaches know how to exploit?
JUCO's have been part of the MU culture for 40 years. The standards have been tightened by MU's admin. Fair or not fair?
I get that Wojo doesn't have the JUCO contacts that Buzz did. Is he merely an early adopter of what is going to be a widespread trend? Are graduate transfers going to be part of the culture going forward or is this just a short term fix?
Is this just a different type of squirmy? The new reality? Or is the NCAA going to have put the genie back in the bottle?
That's your answer.
Quote from: Boozemon Barro on April 03, 2017, 01:19:43 PM
I don't care where they come from as long as they can put the ball in the hoop.
Same here. I'd love to see some JUCOS, but I think our minds are a bit warped. We got some of the best JUCOS ever. Buzz's track record with JUCOS was unbelievable. As TAMU has shown multiple times, there just aren't very many good ones.
The other interesting impact will be on traditional transfers following frosh and soph years.
Coaches have taken frosh and soph transfers with an expectation that after using a scholarship for a year, they'll be around for 3 or 2 more years respectively.
But each of these will ostensibly be able to graduate before his senior season. A soph transfer coming in with 2 years of school and 2 years of eligibility should be on track to graduate after his junior year. Now he's eligible for a grad transfer.
If you were only going to get a year out of him, you might as well take a grad transfer and not waste a scholie with a player sitting out a year.
Ditto with developmental redshirts. Coaches traditionally decide to redshirt an incoming player to preserve a year of eligibility 4 years down the road. But if the player is a free agent after his junior year, and likely to leave, there's no value in the redshirt. Why not just play him during his freshman year?
Quote from: tower912 on April 03, 2017, 01:13:12 PMDoes anyone have the stats on how many grad transfers actually get their graduate degree? Is the graduate degree thing an air quotes myth, or do they actually get one?
I do wonder a bit about this. Perhaps KR already got his graduate degree, but from his instagram, sure looks to me like the guy hightailed out of Milwaukee as soon as the season was over. So maybe he just stopped going to class and will get his degree anyway, maybe he was already done, or maybe he just doesn't give a sh** about his sports leadership (or whatever he chose) graduate degree, and bounced as soon as hoops was over.
Frankly, I don't really give a sh** either way. But I do wonder.
If a grad transfer quits going to class as soon as the season is over, does that affect the APR?
Quote from: tower912 on April 03, 2017, 01:48:21 PM
If a grad transfer quits going to class as soon as the season is over, does that affect the APR?
No. As of right now, as I understand it, grad transfers are positively counted toward APR scores regardless if they receive a degree.
I can't speak to all programs but here at TAMU most of the graduate transfers end up in a 1 year master's program in leadership. So they do leave with a degree. Not sure what other schools do.
APR is a big concern as Brew pointed out. Grad transfers aren't nearly as risky.
I'm honestly not sure but I'd imagine a lot of jucos require extra massaging on admissions whereas grad transfers do not. That bothers some and not others.
As JJJJJ brought up, we have an inflated view of jucos. Buzz had what I am pretty sure was literally the best run of juco success in the modern era of basketball. I don't think any other coach in this generation has ever found 4 future NBA players in the juco ranks in their entire career, let alone in a 3 year span. The one juco "bust" who made it to campus was Joe Fulce who had pretty crippling injuries. Buzz was the best in the business at finding and coaching up quality JUCOs. The vast majority of juco players aren't high major talents. There are a ton more quality grad transfers every year than JUCO transfers.
But more than anything, most of the "demonization" of jucos is a myth. Wojo is free to recruit and has recruited JUCOs. The only JUCOs who would likely be restricted are 2 year JUCOs who major in Phy Ed. MU doesn't have a Phy. Ed. program and thus makes a majority of the player's incoming credits useless.
Quote from: The Equalizer on April 03, 2017, 01:45:40 PM
The other interesting impact will be on traditional transfers following frosh and soph years.
Coaches have taken frosh and soph transfers with an expectation that after using a scholarship for a year, they'll be around for 3 or 2 more years respectively.
But each of these will ostensibly be able to graduate before his senior season. A soph transfer coming in with 2 years of school and 2 years of eligibility should be on track to graduate after his junior year. Now he's eligible for a grad transfer.
If you were only going to get a year out of him, you might as well take a grad transfer and not waste a scholie with a player sitting out a year.
Ditto with developmental redshirts. Coaches traditionally decide to redshirt an incoming player to preserve a year of eligibility 4 years down the road. But if the player is a free agent after his junior year, and likely to leave, there's no value in the redshirt. Why not just play him during his freshman year?
It is a question, but at least as of now, most players who are "grad transfer eligible" do not grad transfer. This is a one team sample size but Marquette's had at least a handful who were eligible (Rowsey, Thomas, J Wilson, Otule off the top of my head) who didn't transfer. Duane was the first one to actually do it. I think you make the best move for your team at the moment and worry about them becoming a grad transfer later. Most cases if the player is happy and is a major contributor they aren't going to transfer.
Quote from: The Equalizer on April 03, 2017, 01:45:40 PM
The other interesting impact will be on traditional transfers following frosh and soph years.
Coaches have taken frosh and soph transfers with an expectation that after using a scholarship for a year, they'll be around for 3 or 2 more years respectively.
But each of these will ostensibly be able to graduate before his senior season. A soph transfer coming in with 2 years of school and 2 years of eligibility should be on track to graduate after his junior year. Now he's eligible for a grad transfer.
If you were only going to get a year out of him, you might as well take a grad transfer and not waste a scholie with a player sitting out a year.
Ditto with developmental redshirts. Coaches traditionally decide to redshirt an incoming player to preserve a year of eligibility 4 years down the road. But if the player is a free agent after his junior year, and likely to leave, there's no value in the redshirt. Why not just play him during his freshman year?
That is most definitely not always true of a traditional transfer. Of course some are able to graduate in 4 years (so after their redshirt junior year), but it depends on credit transfers between schools and course load. Being a D1 athlete and working in 18 credits isn't the easiest thing in the world to do, even with extensive academic aid available to them.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on April 03, 2017, 01:46:09 PM
I do wonder a bit about this. Perhaps KR already got his graduate degree, but from his instagram, sure looks to me like the guy hightailed out of Milwaukee as soon as the season was over. So maybe he just stopped going to class and will get his degree anyway, maybe he was already done, or maybe he just doesn't give a sh** about his sports leadership (or whatever he chose) graduate degree, and bounced as soon as hoops was over.
Frankly, I don't really give a sh** either way. But I do wonder.
A lot of time they can choose a graduate degree where the 2nd semester is essentially thesis writing. As long as they turn in their thesis before the end of the semester they graduate. He very likely could have already turned it in.
Quote from: forgetful on April 03, 2017, 06:02:44 PM
A lot of time they can choose a graduate degree where the 2nd semester is essentially thesis writing. As long as they turn in their thesis before the end of the semester they graduate. He very likely could have already turned it in.
Makes sense
Understand that there's a huge difference between APR & graduation rate. Different things.
To Equalizer's point, I bet there's athletic departments across the country urging academic support groups to slow down the progress of their red shirt players.
Take Madison for example it makes zero sense for them to have Happ graduate in 4 years and be a free agent in year 5 (if he stays and doesn't go pro). So now you've got schools incentivized to not act in the best interest of the student athlete. Which is just classic NCAA.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 03, 2017, 02:59:20 PM
That is most definitely not always true of a traditional transfer. Of course some are able to graduate in 4 years (so after their redshirt junior year), but it depends on credit transfers between schools and course load. Being a D1 athlete and working in 18 credits isn't the easiest thing in the world to do, even with extensive academic aid available to them.
True. Although with all the summer classes they take, they can make up some ground.
Quote from: tower912 on April 03, 2017, 01:48:21 PM
If a grad transfer quits going to class as soon as the season is over, does that affect the APR?
According to my dad who works in the academic side of the athletics department, KR has definitely skipped out of town and if he doesn't finish his classes it does negatively effect Marquette's apr.
Quote from: zrjones13 on April 03, 2017, 08:05:54 PM
According to my dad who works in the academic side of the athletics department, KR has definitely skipped out of town and if he doesn't finish his classes it does negatively effect Marquette's apr.
I'm guessing your dad shouldn't be sharing that kind of stuff.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on April 03, 2017, 02:00:35 PM
I can't speak to all programs but here at TAMU most of the graduate transfers end up in a 1 year master's program in leadership. So they do leave with a degree. Not sure what other schools do.
APR is a big concern as Brew pointed out. Grad transfers aren't nearly as risky.
I'm honestly not sure but I'd imagine a lot of jucos require extra massaging on admissions whereas grad transfers do not. That bothers some and not others.
As JJJJJ brought up, we have an inflated view of jucos. Buzz had what I am pretty sure was literally the best run of juco success in the modern era of basketball. I don't think any other coach in this generation has ever found 4 future NBA players in the juco ranks in their entire career, let alone in a 3 year span. The one juco "bust" who made it to campus was Joe Fulce who had pretty crippling injuries. Buzz was the best in the business at finding and coaching up quality JUCOs. The vast majority of juco players aren't high major talents. There are a ton more quality grad transfers every year than JUCO transfers.
But more than anything, most of the "demonization" of jucos is a myth. Wojo is free to recruit and has recruited JUCOs. The only JUCOs who would likely be restricted are 2 year JUCOs who major in Phy Ed. MU doesn't have a Phy. Ed. program and thus makes a majority of the player's incoming credits useless.
To your point,Set forth below are the stats of a typical juco candidate . There is risk involved. YMMV
http://www.kjccc.org/sports/mbkb/2016-17/div1/players/nicknoskowiak8kay
Quote from: zrjones13 on April 03, 2017, 08:05:54 PM
According to my dad who works in the academic side of the athletics department, KR has definitely skipped out of town and if he doesn't finish his classes it does negatively effect Marquette's apr.
Well if you look at KR's Instagram you can come to a pretty good conclusion and for the APR you could probably find that out yourself.
Quote from: zrjones13 on April 03, 2017, 08:21:03 PM
Well if you look at KR's Instagram you can come to a pretty good conclusion and for the APR you could probably find that out yourself.
You have it wrong.
Quote from: zrjones13 on April 03, 2017, 08:21:03 PM
Well if you look at KR's Instagram you can come to a pretty good conclusion and for the APR you could probably find that out yourself.
No. the question is whether he adequately completes his small course load, whether from a distance or otherwise. The public can't see that, only attempt to determine a year+ after the fact
NVM