He's shown he can coach offense. Will he figure out the other side of the ball?
I think most people can agree that he turned an average group of guys into an offensive powerhouse, but we were inexcusably bad at defense. Can he adjust and improve? I hate having to wait and see, keeping my fingers crossed, but there is no way a team if this caliber should get beat by 20 (20!) in a half.
How much size is coming in?
Wojo and his staff did not show an ability to devise a winning defensive strategy. There's no question about that.
But undersized guards and slow big guys are not good ingredients from which to work. Next year will be telling in terms of wojos development as coach
Quote from: tower912 on March 17, 2017, 11:13:41 PM
How much size is coming in?
A couple big guys, but on the skinny side.
Quote from: tower912 on March 17, 2017, 11:13:41 PM
How much size is coming in?
Size is one thing, ability/skills are another.
Heldt has size, but no BE ability/skills.
Maybe that changes.
Wojo believes that defense is mostly effort.
The team defense was no better in practice. Wojo tells people "they just don't want to play defense."
Wojo will take MU as far as the individual talent allows. He will not make them better as a unit than they are individually (like a Brad Stevens did).
Quote from: mayfairskatingrink on March 17, 2017, 11:21:58 PM
Wojo believes that defense is mostly effort.
The team defense was no better in practice. Wojo tells people "they just don't want to play defense."
Wojo will take MU as far as the individual talent allows. He will not make them better as a unit than they are individually (like a Brad Stevens did).
Go ahead then coach, grab your whistle and your clipboard if you think you have all the damn answers.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on March 17, 2017, 11:23:23 PM
Go ahead then coach, grab your whistle and your clipboard if you think you have all the damn answers.
This kind of comment is ridiculous. Wojo needs to get better at coaching defense. That is an undebatable fact. We don't get paid 7 figures to know how to do this, coupled with another massive travel and recruiting budget. He does. And he needs to improve. Period.
He's got the offensive side down. Defense is a far cry from acceptable, though.
Agree the D is poor. We made SC look like UCLA.
Here's hoping he can pick it up.
Quote from: skianth16 on March 17, 2017, 11:27:54 PM
This kind of comment is ridiculous. Wojo needs to get better at coaching defense. That is an undebatable fact. We don't get paid 7 figures to know how to do this, coupled with another massive travel and recruiting budget. He does. And he needs to improve. Period.
He's got the offensive side down. Defense is a far cry from acceptable, though.
The coaching staff needs to improve in that regard but our personnel had plenty of limitations as well. Tom Thibodeau wouldn't have made this a good defensive team.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on March 18, 2017, 12:20:16 AM
The coaching staff needs to improve in that regard but our personnel had plenty of limitations as well. Tom Thibodeau wouldn't have made this a good defensive team.
False.
Saying this is a personnel limitation is an easy way out. If he can coach these guys to be one of the most efficient offenses, then he should be able to do something on defense too. He squeezed some magic from a fairly average group, so why was the magic so one sided?
Quote from: skianth16 on March 18, 2017, 12:34:32 AM
Saying this is a personnel limitation is an easy way out. If he can coach these guys to be one of the most efficient offenses, then he should be able to do something on defense too. He squeezed some magic from a fairly average group, so why was the magic so one sided?
Who said it was only a personnel situation?
Having a great offense has nothing to do with having a good defense.
To not recognize the limitations of our players and how they contributed to the poor defense is ignorant.
Quote from: tower912 on March 17, 2017, 11:13:41 PM
How much size is coming in?
Answer: A lot of it.
Henry Froling 6' 11" PF/C Transfer from SMU - Now eligible to play.
Theo John 6' 9" PF/C Frosh
Ikechukwu Eke 6' 9" PF/C Frosh
Jamal Cain 6' 6" SF/PF Frosh
In 2018:
Brendan Bailey 6' 7" SF Frosh - The son of one of my favorite college players of all-time, Thurl Bailey
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on March 18, 2017, 12:37:09 AM
To not recognize the limitations of our players and how they contributed to the poor defense is ignorant.
To assume players are only capable of playing one way seems worse to me.
Apparently the same hands, legs, and brains that can put up 83 per game in a tough conference shouldn't be expected to prevent the ball from going through the hoop. Interesting logic.
You would've seen a different lineup. Thibs (in a ridiculous hypothetical) would've made this team better defensively but it would've cost us points. I was admittedly glib in my "false" post, and I apologize. But thibs would've rarely played Fish, Rowsey or Howard. I'm not sure why I'm arguing this as I am happy how this season ended up (with a bright future) but it seems obvious --- offense at the expense of defense. It was the right move by Wojo and wait all of a sudden I realize It's 1:00 and I'm drunk and I'm defending Tom thibedeau on an internet message board and goodlord I'm going to bed. Good night, Marquette.
Quote from: skianth16 on March 18, 2017, 12:47:02 AM
To assume players are only capable of playing one way seems worse to me.
Apparently the same hands, legs, and brains that can put up 83 per game in a tough conference shouldn't be expected to prevent the basement from going through the hoop. Interesting logic.
Once again, no one is assuming that. Your comprehension needs some serious work.
Quote from: DavidBoone2inchesTaller on March 18, 2017, 12:45:43 AM
Answer: A lot of it.
Henry Froling 6' 11" PF/C Transfer from SMU - Now eligible to play.
Theo John 6' 9" PF/C Frosh
Ikechukwu Eke 6' 9" PF/C Frosh
Jamal Cain 6' 6" SF/PF Frosh
In 2018:
Brendan Bailey 6' 7" SF Frosh - The son of one of my favorite college players of all-time, Thurl Bailey
Read Cain is closer to 6'8" now.
Quote from: DavidBoone2inchesTaller on March 18, 2017, 12:45:43 AM
Answer: A lot of it.
Henry Froling 6' 11" PF/C Transfer from SMU - Now eligible to play.
Theo John 6' 9" PF/C Frosh
Ikechukwu Eke 6' 9" PF/C Frosh
Jamal Cain 6' 6" SF/PF Frosh
In 2018:
Brendan Bailey 6' 7" SF Frosh - The son of one of my favorite college players of all-time, Thurl Bailey
How much of that size is ready to contribute next year?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on March 18, 2017, 12:52:41 AM
Once again, no one is assuming that. Your comprehension needs some serious work.
I fundamentally cannot comprehend how the same group of guys can be so efficient at offense and can simultaneously be such a dumpster fire on defense. Your comment that the lack of defense is based on personnel just doesn't make sense when they can be so good at the other half of the game.
You're literally saying that the reason we're bad at defense is because we have bad players. Yet somehow these bad players are capable of forming one of the best offenses in the country.
Does not compute.
Froling and John
Quote from: skianth16 on March 18, 2017, 01:02:16 AM
I fundamentally cannot comprehend how the same group of guys can be so efficient at offense and can simultaneously be such a dumpster fire on defense. Your comment that the lack of defense is based on personnel just doesn't make sense when they can be so good at the other half of the game.
You're literally saying that the reason we're bad at defense is because we have bad players. Yet somehow these bad players are capable of forming one of the best offenses in the country.
Does not compute.
That's not what I'm saying at all. We have guys who can shoot the lights out and move the ball. That skill set doesn't translate to the other side of the ball.
Howard and Rowsey are small and not super quick or athletic. Our wings have some athleticism but nothing out of the ordinary and they are not strong. Sam is fundamentally sound but is not extremely quick or athletic. Luke and Matt are big but not quick or athletic. We didn't have a 4 that could defend and rebound, which makes a huge difference. These are all physical limitations.
Better coaching can help but if you can't see how these limitations hurt on the defensive end but don't have the same impact on the offensive end I don't know what to tell you.
Quote from: skianth16 on March 18, 2017, 01:02:16 AM
I fundamentally cannot comprehend how the same group of guys can be so efficient at offense and can simultaneously be such a dumpster fire on defense. Your comment that the lack of defense is based on personnel just doesn't make sense when they can be so good at the other half of the game.
You're literally saying that the reason we're bad at defense is because we have bad players. Yet somehow these bad players are capable of forming one of the best offenses in the country.
Does not compute.
Why does it not compute? Some players are better at offense. Some are better at defense. We have a lot who are better at offense and maybe 2 who are better at defense. Size also has bigger impact on defense than it does on offense.
That being said, defense was epicly bad this year and some of it is on the coaching. I think some of it was on the scheme, I saw a lot of trying to force square pegs into round holes. But some of it was on teaching defense. Luke got better at hedging screens as the season went on but not nearly fast enough or to a high enough degree.
Wojo is a young coach and is learning. I think the personnel will be a lot more conducive to better defense next season, that'll help. But I think Wojo and his staff will also improve. I also don't think you can underestimate the value of having a team where all the major contributors are your recruits.
I accurately predicted in September what the problem with our defense was going to be. The roster make up dictated it. Our size was slow. Our smalls were slow. And there were more smalls than size. Finally, Wojo is the king of not saying a thing when he talks. Master of coach-speak pablum. So if he actually said that none of them want to play defense, that is actually a huge, brutal indictment. Much like when Buzz warned before his final season that there was a lack of senior leadership and no one paid attention.
Scheme: The same one employed by many teams successfully. Actually fairly commonplace
Size: 6'11 (slow) 6'10 (awkward) 6'7 (210 lbs. A boy wrestling with men) 6'6, 6'5 (went for steals all of the time) 6'5 (worked hard but was snakebit 6'1 (probably the best defender, but guarding 6'5, 225 lb players) 5'11 (a boy wrestling with 6'4, 200 lb guards) 5'10 (at least he efforted and had been in a weight room) Do you see the problem with the players?
Every coach had Luke come out to guard the high pick and rolls. Leaving Sam or JJ to guard the rolling the bigs. It is a matter of physics. Wojo tried zone. But the closeouts and rotations weren't smooth and it didn't hide the lack of size. I was actually impressed with the defensive switch that they tried last night. Did you notice it? They didn't have Luke or Matt come out when Silva went to set the pick, instead leaving them in the middle of the lane to help. In the end, it didn't matter, but it did show thought and creativity.
Wojo is going to have to make the weight room a priority for his returning players. He is going to have to get in their faces about defense. But in the end, they have to commit and do the work.
Quote from: AlumKCof93 on March 17, 2017, 11:16:57 PM
Wojo and his staff did not show an ability to devise a winning defensive strategy. There's no question about that.
But undersized guards and slow big guys are not good ingredients from which to work. Next year will be telling in terms of wojos development as coach
How much do u expect wojo to do? All one had to do was straight line drive on rowsey or howard and it was a foul or a layup. Thats a strength and athleticism issue, not coaching. Jjj chose not to play defense or rebound 3/4 of the time. Hauser is an under sized under strengthed freshman trying to defend qwicker, stronger, bigger n more mature players. Katin did ok. Just rewatch the game last night watching Luke and try to tell me he is not the softest worst defender u have ever seen.
Cheatum and duane are solid defenders but lack strenght and are bankrupt offensively. While good defens they are a disaster on offense and are a net negative while they are out there.
So what exactly was wojo to do. Literally has a roster where only a few guys could guard D1 players. We saw it again last night. Its a foul, a layup or a unguarded jumper. At the end of the day defense comes down to individual matchups, yes there is help and team defense, but can u guard ur man?? And 75% of our roster the answer is an emphatic NO!
Really not much can be done on that. It appears wojo is bringing in what is needed. Lets judge him then. This team is still patchwork at best
Quote from: tower912 on March 18, 2017, 07:49:02 AM
I accurately predicted in September what the problem with our defense was going to be. The roster make up dictated it. Our size was slow. Our smalls were slow. And there were more smalls than size. Finally, Wojo is the king of not saying a thing when he talks. Master of coach-speak pablum. So if he actually said that none of them want to play defense, that is actually a huge, brutal indictment. Much like when Buzz warned before his final season that there was a lack of senior leadership and no one paid attention.
Scheme: The same one employed by many teams successfully. Actually fairly commonplace
Size: 6'11 (slow) 6'10 (awkward) 6'7 (210 lbs. A boy wrestling with men) 6'6, 6'5 (went for steals all of the time) 6'5 (worked hard but was snakebit 6'1 (probably the best defender, but guarding 6'5, 225 lb players) 5'11 (a boy wrestling with 6'4, 200 lb guards) 5'10 (at least he efforted and had been in a weight room) Do you see the problem with the players?
Every coach had Luke come out to guard the high pick and rolls. Leaving Sam or JJ to guard the rolling the bigs. It is a matter of physics. Wojo tried zone. But the closeouts and rotations weren't smooth and it didn't hide the lack of size. I was actually impressed with the defensive switch that they tried last night. Did you notice it? They didn't have Luke or Matt come out when Silva went to set the pick, instead leaving them in the middle of the lane to help. In the end, it didn't matter, but it did show thought and creativity.
Wojo is going to have to make the weight room a priority for his returning players. He is going to have to get in their faces about defense. But in the end, they have to commit and do the work.
This is a very good summation of the problem.
Look at Sam. Guarding a power forward last night that was quicker and had about 50 pounds on him. He's been doing that all year. Ultimately personnel is the coach's issue, but it seems obvious he understands it given who he is bringing in next year.
Quote from: tower912 on March 18, 2017, 07:49:02 AM
I accurately predicted in September what the problem with our defense was going to be. The roster make up dictated it. Our size was slow. Our smalls were slow. And there were more smalls than size. Finally, Wojo is the king of not saying a thing when he talks. Master of coach-speak pablum. So if he actually said that none of them want to play defense, that is actually a huge, brutal indictment. Much like when Buzz warned before his final season that there was a lack of senior leadership and no one paid attention.
Scheme: The same one employed by many teams successfully. Actually fairly commonplace
Size: 6'11 (slow) 6'10 (awkward) 6'7 (210 lbs. A boy wrestling with men) 6'6, 6'5 (went for steals all of the time) 6'5 (worked hard but was snakebit 6'1 (probably the best defender, but guarding 6'5, 225 lb players) 5'11 (a boy wrestling with 6'4, 200 lb guards) 5'10 (at least he efforted and had been in a weight room) Do you see the problem with the players?
Every coach had Luke come out to guard the high pick and rolls. Leaving Sam or JJ to guard the rolling the bigs. It is a matter of physics. Wojo tried zone. But the closeouts and rotations weren't smooth and it didn't hide the lack of size. I was actually impressed with the defensive switch that they tried last night. Did you notice it? They didn't have Luke or Matt come out when Silva went to set the pick, instead leaving them in the middle of the lane to help. In the end, it didn't matter, but it did show thought and creativity.
Wojo is going to have to make the weight room a priority for his returning players. He is going to have to get in their faces about defense. But in the end, they have to commit and do the work.
+1. Great summary Tower.
Quote from: lohaus on March 18, 2017, 01:04:02 AM
Froling and John
Cain will be ready, physically to play right away as well. One thing about Froling though, I believe he is not eligible to suit up until the second semester (conference play), because of his transfer.
Quote from: DavidBoone2inchesTaller on March 19, 2017, 06:20:18 PM
Cain will be ready, physically to play right away as well. One thing about Froling though, I believe he is not eligible to suit up until the second semester (conference play), because of his transfer.
Pedantic I know, but it is actually after the end of the first semester.
I read Dec 18
Quote from: tower912 on March 17, 2017, 11:13:41 PM
How much size is coming in?
"Bend over and I'll show you" --Ty Webb
Quote from: tower912 on March 18, 2017, 07:49:02 AM
I accurately predicted in September what the problem with our defense was going to be. The roster make up dictated it. Our size was slow. Our smalls were slow. And there were more smalls than size. Finally, Wojo is the king of not saying a thing when he talks. Master of coach-speak pablum. So if he actually said that none of them want to play defense, that is actually a huge, brutal indictment. Much like when Buzz warned before his final season that there was a lack of senior leadership and no one paid attention.
Scheme: The same one employed by many teams successfully. Actually fairly commonplace
Size: 6'11 (slow) 6'10 (awkward) 6'7 (210 lbs. A boy wrestling with men) 6'6, 6'5 (went for steals all of the time) 6'5 (worked hard but was snakebit 6'1 (probably the best defender, but guarding 6'5, 225 lb players) 5'11 (a boy wrestling with 6'4, 200 lb guards) 5'10 (at least he efforted and had been in a weight room) Do you see the problem with the players?
Every coach had Luke come out to guard the high pick and rolls. Leaving Sam or JJ to guard the rolling the bigs. It is a matter of physics. Wojo tried zone. But the closeouts and rotations weren't smooth and it didn't hide the lack of size. I was actually impressed with the defensive switch that they tried last night. Did you notice it? They didn't have Luke or Matt come out when Silva went to set the pick, instead leaving them in the middle of the lane to help. In the end, it didn't matter, but it did show thought and creativity.
Wojo is going to have to make the weight room a priority for his returning players. He is going to have to get in their faces about defense. But in the end, they have to commit and do the work.
This is the first team in 4 years to actually play in an NCAA tournament game; hopefully that is enough incentive for the guys to put in the work and know that they can compete at that level and next time win.
Quote from: tower912 on March 18, 2017, 07:49:02 AM
I accurately predicted in September what the problem with our defense was going to be. The roster make up dictated it. Our size was slow. Our smalls were slow. And there were more smalls than size. Finally, Wojo is the king of not saying a thing when he talks. Master of coach-speak pablum. So if he actually said that none of them want to play defense, that is actually a huge, brutal indictment. Much like when Buzz warned before his final season that there was a lack of senior leadership and no one paid attention.
Scheme: The same one employed by many teams successfully. Actually fairly commonplace
Size: 6'11 (slow) 6'10 (awkward) 6'7 (210 lbs. A boy wrestling with men) 6'6, 6'5 (went for steals all of the time) 6'5 (worked hard but was snakebit 6'1 (probably the best defender, but guarding 6'5, 225 lb players) 5'11 (a boy wrestling with 6'4, 200 lb guards) 5'10 (at least he efforted and had been in a weight room) Do you see the problem with the players?
Every coach had Luke come out to guard the high pick and rolls. Leaving Sam or JJ to guard the rolling the bigs. It is a matter of physics. Wojo tried zone. But the closeouts and rotations weren't smooth and it didn't hide the lack of size. I was actually impressed with the defensive switch that they tried last night. Did you notice it? They didn't have Luke or Matt come out when Silva went to set the pick, instead leaving them in the middle of the lane to help. In the end, it didn't matter, but it did show thought and creativity.
Wojo is going to have to make the weight room a priority for his returning players. He is going to have to get in their faces about defense. But in the end, they have to commit and do the work.
Absolutely right Tower (as usual).
The question isn't what we are but what we will be. The ability of our freshmen to contribute next year will be essential to our success. If some of these guys are tough, Bob Lackey/Maurice Lucas-type ballplayers, the sky is the limit.
But if they're weak and intimidated, we'll be lucky to repeat this year's success. Given where they play, I'm betting we're getting something closer to Lucas and Lackey.
Wojo did adjust this entire season. He adjusted both in-game and across the season. He changed starters, he changed player combinations, he changed who he played max minutes and who he played min minutes, etc. Some times they worked, some times they didn't but he 100% adjusted. There is a possibility that there was no silver bullet to fix the defense, the combination of players, teaching, training, and current basketball theory prevented anyone from fixing this defense.
That is not to absolve Wojo from any of this, but the question is not will he try new things on defense the question is will this team have the right combination of talent, scheme, and effort to be at least an average defense. I refuse to believe that someone with Wojo's pedigree has no ability to put together an average defense given time and resources.