Until we have bigs who truly have the strengths and skills of legitimate starters, we can expect disappointing, damaging losses like this.
While they have moments when they look adequate, Ousmane Barro and Dwight Burke are in most cases woefully inadequate.
Yes, the rest of the team looked lousy, inconsistent and far from intimidating today, but Barro and Burke are still the collective problem for this team.
Hmmmm I don't know what game you were watching but I didn't feel like this was our problem today. If we had true bigs we would have been in more trouble because true bigs wouldve had more trouble guarding the perimeter and wvus entire team can shoot the 3
Agree...certainly didn't see Ousman or Burke as the problem today. Poor D, missed layups (I looking at you Lazaar), 13 assists to 14 TO's float to teh top of the list much more than those two.
lack of an adequate backup for Lazar really hurt, they did absolutely nothing on offense or defense.
Quote from: muball on January 06, 2008, 07:16:53 PM
lack of an adequate backup for Lazar really hurt, they did absolutely nothing on offense or defense.
Agree 100%. Fitz killed us today. Added nothing on offense and was abused on defense. They scored way more frequently whenever Hayward sat. I'd rather see a little more of Blackledge. At least he gets some boards and plays a little D.
Those who have responded to my post above -- and maybe others who also love Marquette basketball -- think we are not unacceptably weak on offense and vulnerable on defense because of our big men's inadequacies?
Our opponents in most cases need not worry much about Ousmane Barro and Dwight Burke. The expectation that our guards will rule the day put us in a bad position today and will do the same in other tough games to come this season.
Just watch.
Quote from: MU Avenue on January 06, 2008, 08:22:38 PM
Those who have responded to my post above -- and maybe others who also love Marquette basketball -- think we are not unacceptably weak on offense and vulnerable on defense because of our big men's inadequacies?
Our opponents in most cases need not worry much about Ousmane Barro and Dwight Burke. The expectation that our guards will rule the day put us in a bad position today and will do the same in other tough games to come this season.
Just watch.
I'm sure Bo Ryan and Tim Welsh take comfort in learning that MU is unacceptably weak inside. NOW you tell them!
Yes, we have some outstanding players who have led us to some good wins. But without strong big men, our guards will not carry this team to ultimate success.
No chance! None!
Just watch.
Quote from: MU Avenue on January 06, 2008, 08:38:33 PM
Yes, we have some outstanding players who have led us to some good wins. But without strong big men, our guards will not carry this team to ultimate success.
No chance! None!
Just watch.
I'd like to echo those statements but as long as the fg%, 3fg% and ft% are really good, I don't think that'll affect every MU game.
But I don't know how we're going to deal with Hibbert, Harangody, Young, etc.
What upsets me more about our bigs are their lack of offensive touch and "little nose for the ball" around the basket. There were some gimmes they missed!
key point in game ..Mu up 3 ...Barro misses dunk and then both three throws... :o Fitz and Barro graduate = addition by subtraction. Fitz head case..Barro not talented enough ::)
MU has a great inside/outside guy in Lazar. They needed more from Ous and Burke no question. But we all know that Ous' points come mostly in transition, which MU had little of today. Burke has had zero offensive looks in three, four games straight now. He looks like Burke of last year.
I loved the energy Blackledge brought today. He deserves more minutes. But this loss should be taken w/a grain of salt too. To say we are in all this trouble is nonsense.
Lazar is awesome and the most important guy on the team. When he was out, they were terrible today. And even he missed a couple shots that always go in for him too.
Also, the shooting percentage for WVU in teh second half was aided by the foul trouble of McNeal and Matthews which hurt their aggressiveness.
I don't know what Fitz was doing today. He looked terrible. I'm usually a fan of his even with all his faults, but he was brutal today.
WVU's no slouch and I'm not about to bury this team because of one loss. But it should be a nice wake up call. And just because we lost this game, doesn't mean we lack the bigs to compete and go far this year.
It was actually Barro who took it us out of the game. We were up three and had the momentum when he was fouled and missed both free throws. Then he fouled the West Virginia palyer from behind on the next play. The player made the basket anyways, but I think he missed the free throw. The next time down the floor they got the ball inside to him and he was sandwiched by three players and got his shot blocked. Totally turn the momentum around in the game and we never recovered.
I couldn't agree more with Bilsu and Mr. Hayward about Barro and momentum. The game completely changed after the the missed shot and ft's. Barro will bounce back and continue to work hard.
Fitz is having a hard time fitting in on this team. Yesterday was the type of game he should have done well in and unfortunately it didn't go his way.
Quote from: MU Avenue on January 06, 2008, 06:00:19 PM
Re: Our lack of strong, skilled big men remains a HUGE problem
Couldn't you say that about 90% of the teams across the country?
I'm not saying that MU couldn't use a skilled big man, but I'm just saying that most teams could say the EXACT same thing (especially after a loss).
It's like saying "our lack of an all-American player is a HUGE problem"... I mean, EVERY team could say that.
Quote from: 2002mualum on January 07, 2008, 11:37:17 AM
Quote from: MU Avenue on January 06, 2008, 06:00:19 PM
Re: Our lack of strong, skilled big men remains a HUGE problem
Couldn't you say that about 90% of the teams across the country?
I'm not saying that MU couldn't use a skilled big man, but I'm just saying that most teams could say the EXACT same thing (especially after a loss).
It's like saying "our lack of an all-American player is a HUGE problem"... I mean, EVERY team could say that.
Don't be ridiculous. You couldn't say that about AT LEAST half the teams in the Top 10.
Likewise, I don't believe you could say it is HUGE problem for MU as presented in the original post. If your expectations for MU are winning the national title, then yes, it may in fact be a HUGE problem. If not, perhaps we can say it is less than ideal. I continue to see this team as very similar to the Illinois team that played in the title game a couple years back...They got just enough from Augustine in particular that year to make them a very good team. Until of course they met up with UNC and May in the final game and didn't have a shot. Goes back to 2002's point though that most teams in America would be in the same situation. There just aren't whole lot of Hansbroughs, Dorseys, and Loves out there. you put one of those guys on MU and they instantly enter the same conversation as teams like UNC, Memphis, and UCLA. Take those guys off of those teams and they leave that rarefied air and find themselves down a bit into MU's neighborhood, or worse.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on January 07, 2008, 11:55:38 AM
Don't be ridiculous. You couldn't say that about AT LEAST half the teams in the Top 10.
So that leaves, what, ~325 teams about which you could say that their lack of a big man is a "HUGE" problem?
West Virginia's strong, big man killed us. Oh wait...
Quote from: CTWarrior on January 06, 2008, 07:25:31 PM
I'd rather see a little more of Blackledge. At least he gets some boards and plays a little D.
I agree, I don't know why he doesn't get some more minutes. I know he is not much on the offensive end, and is too thin, but he can run around with almost anyone, and I love his defensive intensity.
I didn't see the game yesterday so I don't know if our bigs cost us this game. Up until now, they have not hurt us at all and in fact if it wasn't for Burke against Wisky who has a TON OF BIGS, he helped win us that game so I do believe we will be able to compete against teams like Georgetown and Pitt. Having said that, losing Mbakwe this year was a huge blow. He was competing for a starting spot this year. He would have brought a strong presence in the paint this year. Oh well. We get him next year which is a huge plus but in all likelihood lose Dom which is a huge negative.
I think the problem with Barro is that he is not part of our offense. All they do with him is hide him on the base line and sneak an occassional pass to him. This at times is very effective. However, you never see the ball come into him and go back out. It is always our guards trying to drive the ball in. If you watch most teams they pass the ball inside and pass the ball back out. That is what West Virginia did. We do not do this. It is like playing offense with only four players until the other team forgets about Barro hiding on the base line.
Quote from: Marquette84 on January 06, 2008, 08:32:26 PM
Quote from: MU Avenue on January 06, 2008, 08:22:38 PM
Those who have responded to my post above -- and maybe others who also love Marquette basketball -- think we are not unacceptably weak on offense and vulnerable on defense because of our big men's inadequacies?
Our opponents in most cases need not worry much about Ousmane Barro and Dwight Burke. The expectation that our guards will rule the day put us in a bad position today and will do the same in other tough games to come this season.
Just watch.
I'm sure Bo Ryan and Tim Welsh take comfort in learning that MU is unacceptably weak inside. NOW you tell them!
Providence is missing two key players, bad example. Lets see how we face up against Harangody Saturday. MU Avenue may be right. Time will tell.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on January 07, 2008, 11:55:38 AMI continue to see this team as very similar to the Illinois team that played in the title game a couple years back...They got just enough from Augustine in particular that year to make them a very good team. Until of course they met up with UNC and May in the final game and didn't have a shot.
It is similar in that the guards carry a great team, but I think at the same time we are very different. While we are deeper with our guards, I would take any one of their three guards (Dee Brown, Deron Williams, and Luther Head) over any of our three starting guards (James, Matthews, and McNeal) in a second. Their three guards also shot the ball much better than any of our three guards do, especially from 3 point range. I have both their game against Arizona in the tournament (15 point comeback in 3:27) and the NC against UNC on DVD and their three guards rarely come out. Augustine was a lot better than Barro/Burke, and although I love Lazar, Powell was a completely underrated player. He actually played a lot like Lazar plays now. Also, they sure did have a shot to beat UNC with May. They missed a 3 with about a minute and a half left that would have tied the game. It was a very close game...but yes, May sure did dominate that game.
Quote from: bilsu on January 07, 2008, 05:59:19 PM
However, you never see the ball come into him and go back out.
I'm nit-picking, but Barro did have a nice touch pass back out to McNeal right before halftime of the providence game.
With Barro, I've got to believe the coaching staff has spent so much time on his offensive game that they haven't even spent much time trying to get him to look for assists. He has very little basketball experience except for his 3 1/2 years at MU. Anything you get out of him as far as passing for an assist is a bonus at this point.
If we're lucky, he'll be doing it more by the end of the year - but I'm not counting on it.
I'm excited for a guy like Otule to get to the program - he started his playing days as a guard - before growing to 6'10". I'd expect him to have more court vision from the post
Quote from: wadesworld on January 08, 2008, 12:50:22 AM
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on January 07, 2008, 11:55:38 AMI continue to see this team as very similar to the Illinois team that played in the title game a couple years back...They got just enough from Augustine in particular that year to make them a very good team. Until of course they met up with UNC and May in the final game and didn't have a shot.
It is similar in that the guards carry a great team, but I think at the same time we are very different. While we are deeper with our guards, I would take any one of their three guards (Dee Brown, Deron Williams, and Luther Head) over any of our three starting guards (James, Matthews, and McNeal) in a second. Their three guards also shot the ball much better than any of our three guards do, especially from 3 point range. I have both their game against Arizona in the tournament (15 point comeback in 3:27) and the NC against UNC on DVD and their three guards rarely come out. Augustine was a lot better than Barro/Burke, and although I love Lazar, Powell was a completely underrated player. He actually played a lot like Lazar plays now. Also, they sure did have a shot to beat UNC with May. They missed a 3 with about a minute and a half left that would have tied the game. It was a very close game...but yes, May sure did dominate that game.
Good points, not sure I completely agree, but its close. Pretty sure I'd take James over Dee Brown, and maybe all three. You're right that thet are different. While UI's guys certainly shot better, as a group, our guys get to the rim and finish better, they're stronger, which also helps somewhat to reduce the reliance on inside players. And, as you mentioned our depth adds an element they didn't have. The overall point is as you said - those 3 guys are our team, as they were for Illinois.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on January 08, 2008, 08:23:38 AM
Good points, not sure I completely agree, but its close. Pretty sure I'd take James over Dee Brown, and maybe all three. You're right that thet are different. While UI's guys certainly shot better, as a group, our guys get to the rim and finish better, they're stronger, which also helps somewhat to reduce the reliance on inside players. And, as you mentioned our depth adds an element they didn't have. The overall point is as you said - those 3 guys are our team, as they were for Illinois.
I agree that our guards get to the hoop more and are stronger, but I think I would take James only over the Dee Brown of his senior year, and even that is questionable. His junior year he was the best of the three but then broke his leg during NBA workouts and was never the same (partly because the other two were gone so he was the sole focus of opponents). He was named National Player of the Year by Sporting News, was Big Ten Player of the Year, was First Team All American, and Big Ten Defensive Player of the Year his junior year. His senior year he dropped off to Second Team All-American, First Team All Big Ten, and not sure what else.
what is this about a strong skilled big man. Is this basketball or a dating site?