I've seen in a long time. Yes we still should have won, and a lot of that is on Wojo - how we can go 7 minutes without a FG with this team is beyond me.
but FFS... it's hard to win when you're playing 5 on 8...
Quote from: 1SE on February 25, 2017, 05:34:12 PM
I've seen in a long time. Yes we still should have won, and a lot of that is on Wojo - how we can go 7 minutes without a FG with this team is beyond me.
but FFS... it's hard to win when you're playing 5 on 8...
Not making a shot for 7 minutes isn't on Wojo.
I don't know about worst. But it was weird with the condensation on the floor.
I try to never blame the refs but around the 3 minute mark I knew we were gonna lose. No contact on half of those fouls they called for Cartwright meanwhile MU couldn't get a call to save their life.
Wojo sucks
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 25, 2017, 05:35:25 PM
I don't know about worst. But it was weird with the condensation on the floor.
It was pretty bad, all along, but especially on that last opportunity. Missing either the body/arm on Reinhardt's shot or the Sam undercutting would have been bad. "Missing" them both makes me think the baseline official must have had a parlay on PC making it 4 straight.
The refs should be walking home. This game shouldn't have been played. Forget the shitty job they did down the stretch
That was a foul on Hauser at the end. Absolute bs that it wasn't called. Regardless we choke yet another game. This team really is capable of making the tournament yet we piss away game after game. So disappointing. Our seniors just aren't winners, our coach is God awful in crunch time situations, and just flat out bad luck. Sucks to be a Marquette fan right now
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 25, 2017, 05:35:10 PM
Not making a shot for 7 minutes isn't on Wojo.
We didn't make a FG the last 7 minutes because we started trying to kill clock instead of just running our stuff that got us the lead. That is on Wojo.
We did a lot of good things (though mostly made shots while they missed them) to get that lead. If this was an early Big East game, I'd be saying well, there' a lot of positives we can take away from this, but we don't seem to learn anything.
I didn't think the refs were all that bad or one sided. I didn't like the call on Hauser at the end, but it wasn't egregious in end game scenario, and it should never have come to that.
Quote from: 1SE on February 25, 2017, 05:39:06 PM
It was pretty bad, all along, but especially on that last opportunity. Missing either the body/arm on Reinhardt's shot or the Sam undercutting would have been bad. "Missing" them both makes me think the baseline official must have had a parlay on PC making it 4 straight.
Agree on the last (MU) play. It appeared they were determined not to call a foul thinking the clock was going to expire. BS. But it happened.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 25, 2017, 05:43:07 PM
Agree on the last (MU) play. It appeared they were determined not to call a foul thinking the clock was going to expire. BS. But it happened.
Hard to see on my choppy euro-stream but while I don't think any of the Heldt/Fisher/Howard fouls were pure phantom calls they certainly didn't seem to rise beyond the level on the continuous no-calls on the other end. Having those three in foul trouble in the last 7 completely changed the makeup of the game. Really seemed like the refs were waiting with the whistle in the mouth to call fouls on those 3.
Quote from: CTWarrior on February 25, 2017, 05:42:17 PM
We didn't make a FG the last 7 minutes because we started trying to kill clock instead of just running our stuff that got us the lead. That is on Wojo.
They ran offense that got Hauser a wide open three that he missed, followed by a JJJ lay-up miss. Providence scored both times down.
I'm not sure how much of that is on Wojo. Yeah they were more deliberate, but they got good looks out of their offense.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on February 25, 2017, 05:47:03 PM
They ran offense that got Hauser a wide open three that he missed, followed by a JJJ lay-up miss. Providence scored both times down.
I'm not sure how much of that is on Wojo. Yeah they were more deliberate, but they got good looks out of their offense.
Those were two key plays. Both good shots that didn't go down.
Quote from: CTWarrior on February 25, 2017, 05:42:17 PM
We didn't make a FG the last 7 minutes because we started trying to kill clock instead of just running our stuff that got us the lead. That is on Wojo.
No we didn't. Go back and look at it, and also see the misses, turnovers. Many missed wide open shots along with some that were forced. http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/playbyplay?gameId=400919736
JJJ missed free throw. JJJ took a shot with double digits on the shot clock, that's not running it down. Katin missed a shot 7 seconds into the shot clock with under 8 minutes to play. JJJ missed a layup 15 seconds into the shot clock with 5:35 left. Howard missed a three pointer.
Let's not forget Heldt turnover, Katin turnover, Markus Howard turnover at mid court. Hauser missed 3 pointer with no one near him at the 2:18 mark. Heldt missed free throw. Another JJJ missed layup with 1:58 left (with 11 seconds still on the shot clock).
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on February 25, 2017, 05:47:03 PM
They ran offense that got Hauser a wide open three that he missed, followed by a JJJ lay-up miss. Providence scored both times down.
I'm not sure how much of that is on Wojo. Yeah they were more deliberate, but they got good looks out of their offense.
Cat was out of the bag by then. Those were high pressure shots, which made them more difficult. Hauser, particularly, clutched before taking that three. I suppose that's on Hauser more than Wojo.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 25, 2017, 05:49:48 PM
Those were two key plays. Both good shots that didn't go down.
We come back to this time and again. Players not executing in crunch time (i.e. playing with a 12 point lead, on the road, late in the second half, with a NCAA tourney berth on the line)
is a coaching issue. To a well-coached team, this type of situation shouldn't faze players anymore than a Sunday pick-up game in the rec. Situational awareness/capacity is a coaching issue.
Quote from: 1SE on February 25, 2017, 05:54:07 PM
We come back to this time and again. Players not executing in crunch time (i.e. playing with a 12 point lead, on the road, late in the second half, with a NCAA tourney berth on the line) is a coaching issue. To a well-coached team, this type of situation shouldn't faze players anymore than a Sunday pick-up game in the rec. Situational awareness/capacity is a coaching issue.
I'm not saying a part of this loss isn't on Wojo. Sometimes players miss good shots. Either one of those goes in and it's probably a different story.
I don't blame Sam for missing a wide open 3 but it was a great shot. That's just basketball.
Quote from: 1SE on February 25, 2017, 05:54:07 PM
We come back to this time and again. Players not executing in crunch time (i.e. playing with a 12 point lead, on the road, late in the second half, with a NCAA tourney berth on the line) is a coaching issue. To a well-coached team, this type of situation shouldn't faze players anymore than a Sunday pick-up game in the rec. Situational awareness/capacity is a coaching issue.
Not to mention mismanagement of personnel (there were seriously NO minutes for DW the entire second half?!), and mismanagement of our D.
Quote from: 1SE on February 25, 2017, 05:34:12 PM
I've seen in a long time. Yes we still should have won, and a lot of that is on Wojo - how we can go 7 minutes without a FG with this team is beyond me.
but FFS... it's hard to win when you're playing 5 on 8...
Please, enough with the ref's crap. The team sh## the bed again down the stretch. We have seen this movie several times this year.
Quote from: 1SE on February 25, 2017, 05:54:07 PM
We come back to this time and again. Players not executing in crunch time (i.e. playing with a 12 point lead, on the road, late in the second half, with a NCAA tourney berth on the line) is a coaching issue. To a well-coached team, this type of situation shouldn't faze players anymore than a Sunday pick-up game in the rec. Situational awareness/capacity is a coaching issue.
In part perhaps.
Quote from: NickelDimer on February 25, 2017, 06:01:44 PM
Not to mention mismanagement of personnel (there were seriously NO minutes for DW the entire second half?!), and mismanagement of our D.
Yeah I think DW should have played much more in the second half. JJJ was pretty awful down the stretch.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 25, 2017, 06:00:30 PM
I'm not saying a part of this loss isn't on Wojo. Sometimes players miss good shots. Either one of those goes in and it's probably a different story.
I don't blame Sam for missing a wide open 3 but it was a great shot. That's just basketball.
Sure, there were a few good looks there, but for the most part, our 7 minutes scoreless stretch was once again a result of "deer looking into headlights, hoping the game ends before the truck hits"
Quote from: 1SE on February 25, 2017, 06:04:10 PM
Sure, there were a few good looks there, but for the most part, our 7 minutes scoreless stretch was once again a result of "deer looking into headlights, hoping the game ends before the truck hits"
Not sure how that is entirely on the coach.
But I guess people need a scapegoat.
Quote from: 1SE on February 25, 2017, 06:04:10 PM
Sure, there were a few good looks there, but for the most part, our 7 minutes scoreless stretch was once again a result of "deer looking into headlights, hoping the game ends before the truck hits"
Tis is what it feels like when you're watching it. You can just see and feel it happening. I don't know if you blame the coach or the players, I guess.
Quote from: 1SE on February 25, 2017, 06:04:10 PM
Sure, there were a few good looks there, but for the most part, our 7 minutes scoreless stretch was once again a result of "deer looking into headlights, hoping the game ends before the truck hits"
It's on everyone. And it's a repeated pattern so it's ultimately on the coach but it's not all him.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on February 25, 2017, 06:04:51 PM
Not sure how that is entirely on the coach.
But I guess people need a scapegoat.
No one is saying this is entirely on anyone. Lots of factors contributed to the loss. But to think coaching plays no role here...?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 25, 2017, 06:05:48 PM
It's on everyone. And it's a repeated pattern so it's ultimately on the coach but it's not all him.
Now this I agree with.
Lack of senior leadership is a problem down the stretch as well. (Which is why I thought DW should have played more.)
Quote from: 1SE on February 25, 2017, 06:06:42 PM
No one is saying this is entirely on anyone. Lots of factors contributed to the loss. But to think coaching plays no role here...?
I never said it didn't.
So here's where I *do* blame Wojo and not the refs. I think (but obviously don't know) that wojo has seen our awful defense, and told the guys to be more aggressive / take more fouls if needed.
It *has* led to a slightly better defense (hey, we didn't let PC score more than 80!), but it did cause our 2 big guys to foul out.
Continuing that, I think Luke has been stuggling with fouls lately because he playing the kind of defense that Wojo wants. Double edged sword.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on February 25, 2017, 06:08:00 PM
I never said it didn't.
And I never said it was entirely on Wojo.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 25, 2017, 06:11:48 PM
So here's where I *do* blame Wojo and not the refs. I think (but obviously don't know) that wojo has seen our awful defense, and told the guys to be more aggressive / take more fouls if needed.
It *has* led to a slightly better defense (hey, we didn't let PC score more than 80!), but it did cause our 2 big guys to foul out.
Continuing that, I think Luke has been stuggling with fouls lately because he playing the kind of defense that Wojo wants. Double edged sword.
Interesting theory Rocky. Instead of defending without fouling, defend by fouling.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 25, 2017, 05:35:25 PM
I don't know about worst. But it was weird with the condensation on the floor.
Bush league, the American Hockey League, please.
The leader is always the one who it falls on, that's what a leader is. Anything short is not a leader.
Quote from: warriorfan 14 on February 25, 2017, 05:40:53 PM
That was a foul on Hauser at the end. Absolute bs that it wasn't called. Regardless we choke yet another game. This team really is capable of making the tournament yet we piss away game after game. So disappointing. Our seniors just aren't winners, our coach is God awful in crunch time situations, and just flat out bad luck. Sucks to be a Marquette fan right now
Ah yes, the "fan" that only shows up after a loss.
Was sitting behind MU bench in line with the baseline. There were two occasions when guys slipped in the same spot to the left of the hoop near the left paint line. One was a KR layup and he slipped and it messed up his shot. Sam slipped a bit as well on that last rebound. There was a ref on the baseline about 4' away - no call on either.
I told my wife at the 4:30 mark that they would take it away. They didn't completely take it, we got in the giving mode. Multiple mistakes, ill-advised drives into tall timber, TO's, we have seen it before.
I asked the question after the @SHU debacle if it was on Wojo and got my lunch handed to me.
One thing is certain: no lead is safe - see Pitt, SHU, Butler. So is it the players or the coach? My thinking is if it's the players (getting tight or whatever), the coach could/should correct it. If collapses like this stem from what they get in the huddle, who corrects that?
I know we have a limited, flawed team. The Red Sox used to have a catcher named Tillman who was described as having only a nodding acquaintance with a curveball. The same could be said for this team relative to defense.
I keep hearing that we are making progress. I guess we are, however incrementally. But I would be less than honest if I didn't admit that besides the disappointment, the way things have gone is as irritating as hell.
So if we can beat Creighton at home, are we in?
I'm extremely disappointed with the Big East conference.
First of all, we lost this game because the other team played better.
Playing in such a lousy facility with an unsafe floor is unacceptable. The Big East needs to have rules that require removal of the ice to avoid these circumstances. It's that simple. If PC share the facility, then they need to schedule better.
Next is the refs. If the BEast is going to be an elite hoops conference then it needs elite refs. I'm tired of unwatchable crap games dominated by bad refereeing. This particular game should not have been played. But the refs ruined it with ridiculous and phantom calls both ways.
I hope if UCONN is joining they insist on upgrades as part of their "package", because the only other option is for a team to threaten to leave until these things improve.
They can't remove the ice. There is ice under the floor at almost every Big East home court. They just need to deal with it better.
Honestly, this game shouldn't have been played. Both schools are very, very fortunate that no one got hurt.
The court was obviously not in game shape. It was more than just an isolated issue and everybody knew pregame about it.
This was a total failure by all the adults involved. Coaches, ADs, Big East officials. Somebody needed to step-up and make the right call. They put the players in a very bad spot.
I'm interested if Bill Scholl has some comments about this in the coming days. His job is in part to protect MU's student athletes and MU basketball failed in that regard today.
Quote from: RJax55 on February 25, 2017, 09:40:30 PM
Honestly, this game shouldn't have been played. Both schools are very, very fortunate that no one got hurt.
The court was obviously not in game shape. It was more than just an isolated issue and everybody knew pregame about it.
This was a total failure by all the adults involved. Coaches, ADs, Big East officials. Somebody needed to step-up and make the right call. They put the players in a very bad spot.
I'm interested if Bill Scholl has some comments about this in the coming days. His job is in part to protect MU's student athletes and MU basketball failed in that regard today.
I agree with this analysis.
Hypothetically if the game got cancelled, what would happen? Play Sunday, don't play the game at all, something else?
A loss is a loss. cant blame it on the refs only on ourselves. We need the next one
You should never let yourself get into a position where reffing can determine the game, because bad calls are part of the game. That being said...
31-10 FT differential is very suspect in my opinion. There were several phantom calls on us, specifically on Matt and Luke. I truly believe that they just have reputations as foulers and the refs are quick to whistle them.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 26, 2017, 01:21:20 AM
You should never let yourself get into a position where reffing can determine the game, because bad calls are part of the game. That being said...
31-10 FT differential is very suspect in my opinion. There were several phantom calls on us, specifically on Matt and Luke. I truly believe that they just have reputations as foulers and the refs are quick to whistle them.
MU fouled because PC gained access into the paint, which MU lost 34-16. Add in FTM + PIP, and MU was outscored 52-24 in the shaded area. PC has 12 offensive rebounds to MU's 5. MU won the perimeter 33-15 but had two gaps, about 12 miles minutes total where they did not score a field goal. Paint touches matta. That was the difference, not the officials.
That said, the game day operations between the floor, the clock and the changed lighting was unfair. Why the officials and both coaches agreed to alter the rules for the conditions is beyond me. MU is already at a disadvantage on the road, so those stoppages affected momentum and provided extra time to regroup between redo travels, mopping, and clock/play resets. Yes, both sides had to play in the conditions, but the redo travels for a dribble drive team like the Friars, was in PCs favor (I think 5-1) due to their paint touch gameplan.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on February 25, 2017, 06:07:21 PM
Now this I agree with.
Lack of senior leadership is a problem down the stretch as well. (Which is why I thought DW should have played more.)
this is where i thought katin was supposed to fill a void and wear the big-boy, i've been here before pants. doesn't necessarily mean he has to make the shot or grab the rebound, but bring an air of confidence and calm to the others
did the floor suddenly get slippery after the players went thru their warm-ups? most times, these guys are out on the floor a few hours before game time. i understand that temperature changes can occur as the building fills up with fans, etc, but come on man...
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 26, 2017, 04:55:11 AM
MU fouled because PC gained access into the paint, which MU lost 34-16. Add in FTM + PIP, and MU was outscored 52-24 in the shaded area. PC has 12 offensive rebounds to MU's 5. MU won the perimeter 33-15 but had two gaps, about 12 miles minutes total where they did not score a field goal. Paint touches matta. That was the difference, not the officials.
That said, the game day operations between the floor, the clock and the changed lighting was unfair. Why the officials and both coaches agreed to alter the rules for the conditions is beyond me. MU is already at a disadvantage on the road, so those stoppages affected momentum and provided extra time to regroup between redo travels, mopping, and clock/play resets. Yes, both sides had to play in the conditions, but the redo travels for a dribble drive team like the Friars, was in PCs favor (I think 5-1) due to their paint touch gameplan.
I actually thought the slippery floor favored MU. You lose when one PC player can out rebound 2 or even 3 MU players going after the ball. Our guys are not as athletic.
Yes, we have a lot of deficiencies but early on in the game it was apparent that not much was going to be called on our drivers, and there was plenty (sometimes multiple) contact. 31-10 is pretty much an outlier.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 26, 2017, 04:55:11 AM
MU fouled because PC gained access into the paint, which MU lost 34-16. Add in FTM + PIP, and MU was outscored 52-24 in the shaded area. PC has 12 offensive rebounds to MU's 5. MU won the perimeter 33-15 but had two gaps, about 12 miles minutes total where they did not score a field goal. Paint touches matta. That was the difference, not the officials.
That said, the game day operations between the floor, the clock and the changed lighting was unfair. Why the officials and both coaches agreed to alter the rules for the conditions is beyond me. MU is already at a disadvantage on the road, so those stoppages affected momentum and provided extra time to regroup between redo travels, mopping, and clock/play resets. Yes, both sides had to play in the conditions, but the redo travels for a dribble drive team like the Friars, was in PCs favor (I think 5-1) due to their paint touch gameplan.
This. I'm a Luke apologist. Most of his fouls, it seems, are on guards are running free to the basket and he is offering help. I don't know why officials reward the offensive player for leaning/ jumping into the defender. They are breaking the verticality rule and should be a no call or charge. Second, why are we guarding guys 30 feet from the basket anyway? If a high screen comes way out top, it results a lot of times in the guards getting running starts to the basket and putting our inside players in a tough position.
I'm wary of any games in Providence now after listening to Crimetown. The and-1 that Providence got right at the beginning of the 2nd half where the ball had almost hit the floor before the ref called anything was terrible.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 26, 2017, 01:21:20 AM
You should never let yourself get into a position where reffing can determine the game, because bad calls are part of the game. That being said...
TAMU, I - as usual - agree with you. A different perspective. When I play in my local league I know I only get to use two fouls because the bad refs will call 3 more on me which are not fouls. So I play like I start the game with 3 fouls. This should NOT be the case in Elite college basketball, but unfortunately it is the case in the Big East. The refs are simply not up to the pace of the game, and they are very biased towards the more athletic defenders who constantly hand check and foul (like Providence, who rarely get called) than the less athletic MU guys (bigs especially) who really don't foul that much or that badly.
Again, no sour grapes here about the loss. PC played a good game. I'm just sick of the crap product the BEAST is producing on the court right now, and overall the refs are the biggest part of the problem... even more than DePaul!
Quote from: mileskishnish72 on February 25, 2017, 09:05:44 PM
So is it the players or the coach? My thinking is if it's the players (getting tight or whatever), the coach could/should correct it. If collapses like this stem from what they get in the huddle, who corrects that?
I know we have a limited, flawed team.
I'm not sure the coach can correct it. Once again we are relying on a bunch of freshman and first year BE players. So when Sam misses that shot late in a critical game remember that is a freshman taking that shot. In most other team's that is a upperclassman. Same with Markus's turn over at mid court. Brutal but he is a freshman who had to sit much of the game (why as he sitting because he makes mistakes that cost him fouls because once again he is young). A few years ago when we went on that run to get to the tournament it was Jimmy Butler as a junior taking those shots and making those plays down the stretch. We're kind of in the same situation we were last year. The thing I most counted on was that Haanif would be this team's Jimmy Butler. Young but still experienced. I kind of knew it wouldn't be JJJ. You have to have those guys to win important games on the road. Next year the guys that we rely on now will have been through it once and they will handle this better. If they have Soph years like Haanif and Haanif never returns to form THEN I think you've got to question what Wojo and staff are doing on player development. Unfortunately right now its last year all over again.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on February 26, 2017, 05:13:58 AM
did the floor suddenly get slippery after the players went thru their warm-ups? most times, these guys are out on the floor a few hours before game time. i understand that temperature changes can occur as the building fills up with fans, etc, but come on man...
I was at the game about an hour early and watched both teams go through their early warm-ups, stretches, runs, etc., and there was nothing to indicate what happened would happen. No special attention paid to the floor pre-game, obviously that changed.
I thought the starts and stops favored us, there was no flow in that second half, unfortunately until the last 5 minutes or so
Quote from: rocket surgeon on February 26, 2017, 05:13:58 AM
did the floor suddenly get slippery after the players went thru their warm-ups? most times, these guys are out on the floor a few hours before game time. i understand that temperature changes can occur as the building fills up with fans, etc, but come on man...
Matty V interviewed Markus and they said they had noticed the floor during warm ups.
Quote from: 79Warrior on February 25, 2017, 06:02:33 PM
Please, enough with the ref's crap. The team sh## the bed again down the stretch. We have seen this movie several times this year.
Have to agree with this. So frustrating to have this happen time and again this year.