I want us to be relevant so badly. I'm sure everyone on this board agrees. Somebody give me a reason to be optimistic. We have three 3 star recruits coming next year and the 58th ranked recruiting class per 247. Somebody help me see my glass as half full and not empty.
So far, Wojo has added Traci, Cheatham, Howard, Hauser, and Henry, all of whom were impactful frosh. Odds are 1-2 of his freshmen will be similar next year, and our biggest problem is the defense that will benefit from adding long, athletic players.
Howard and Hauser are future stars and will continue that ascent. We won't be great, but we have the foundation of a great offense and next year's length will improve the defense. It will also help having passionate senior leaders like Duane and Rowsey.
Recruiting wise, Joey Hauser is on the horizon and can be what Henry should've been with a talented supporting cast.
At least that's what I'm telling myself to get through this stretch.
I'll take a stab at it!
1. Wojo has to actually rebuild a program. He unfairly gets compared to buzz, but buzz only had to sustain and then build from a sting foundation. Wojo does not have that luxury.
2. Wojo can recruit. No one questions that.
2a. Wojo first class, wasn't a class just bodies in MU uniforms.
2b. Wojo' second class included McDonalds all American who is now gone pro.
2c. You could look at this year's class as the first recruiting class that stays for mutiple years. (Sans cheatham)
3. Just like the team, I hope Wojo also sees his coaching staff as a work in progress.
4. I said at the beginning of the season we were still a few years from the tournament and everyone was ok with it then. We beat nova and then people thought that we were going to be ranked. We need to temper expectations.
5. It's been awhile since we have had good shooters. We now have then but need other missing pieces. Wojo got the shooters, let's see if he can get the other players needed.
There are still two spots available. Does 247 include the Froling transfer? He was a 4 star. Besides Henry for a year, when is the last time MU had a PF? Mbakwe for a year? MU has two coming in, at the very least they'll help rebounding and playing defense. I also think Hauser will put on 20 pounds. They won't have a problem scoring next year. Guards will be very good with Howard, Rausey, Wilson and Cheatham (haven't given up on his offensive game). Hauser & Froling will spread the floor. They'll also get a solid grad transfer for the wing. Look at the success Lockett, Carlino & Reinhardt have had. I expect another good one. Let's just calm down, the roster isn't great and the Big East is really good this year....9 good teams.
Quote from: esotericmindguy on February 11, 2017, 08:05:58 PM
Let's just calm down, the roster isn't great and the Big East is really good this year....9 good teams.
Is 12-14 St Johns the 9th good team?
That Jae Crowder fellow was a decent PF. Big East POY and 2nd team All American.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 11, 2017, 07:46:04 PM
So far, Wojo has added Traci, Cheatham, Howard, Hauser, and Henry, all of whom were impactful frosh.
Impact freshmen who leave or regress before or during their sophomore seasons don't move a program forward. So far Wojo is 3 for 3 on that account.
Quote from: jonny09 on February 11, 2017, 07:27:38 PM
I want us to be relevant so badly. I'm sure everyone on this board agrees. Somebody give me a reason to be optimistic. We have three 3 star recruits coming next year and the 58th ranked recruiting class per 247. Somebody help me see my glass as half full and not empty.
3 Stars - but they all have something that is missing completely from the current team - Length/quickness combined.
Quote from: WarriorPride68 on February 11, 2017, 08:09:45 PM
Is 12-14 St Johns the 9th good team?
Yes. Playing very well lately.
Remember that stars are NOT that big of a deal. Davante was a 2. Wade was a 3.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 11, 2017, 09:40:46 PM
Impact freshmen who leave or regress before or during their sophomore seasons don't move a program forward. So far Wojo is 3 for 3 on that account.
Yep. Player development (lack of it) might be my biggest concern about Wojo.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 11, 2017, 09:40:46 PM
Impact freshmen who leave or regress before or during their sophomore seasons don't move a program forward. So far Wojo is 3 for 3 on that account.
That's just silly. Would you turn away a one and done? Were you unhappy we landed Henry at the time? Unless you have unedited proof showing that, it's a moot point. Cheatham has improved, just not as much as some hoped. Has he also slumped? Yes. But overall he's been better. Better passer, better defender, better rebounder. Shooting down, but on a team with so many options that's less a necessity. Traci was also better across the board, but left because of the personal issues and Markus Howard roadblock.
Should Wojo stop recruiting the best players he can get? Should he stop working on skills outside shooting? Should he stop recruiting better players that put pressure to perform on the guys already here? Unless you answer yes to all those questions, your entire post is completely unfounded, inane, and flat out wrong.
As much as I went gaga over Ellenson, I knew it wasn't going to do MU well if he bolted after his freshman year and there wasn't any immediate capitalization on it. Granted, Wojo is capitalizing on it a bit now with kids still in HS but Henry's not playing doesn't help maximize the effect on recruits. (Thank god, Jimmy, Jae, Wade and Wesley are.)
It's going to take a strong group of players who will carry this club forward. Two more years and this will be a great club.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 11, 2017, 10:30:02 PM
That's just silly. Would you turn away a one and done? Were you unhappy we landed Henry at the time? Unless you have unedited proof showing that, it's a moot point. Cheatham has improved, just not as much as some hoped. Has he also slumped? Yes. But overall he's been better. Better passer, better defender, better rebounder. Shooting down, but on a team with so many options that's less a necessity. Traci was also better across the board, but left because of the personal issues and Markus Howard roadblock.
Should Wojo stop recruiting the best players he can get? Should he stop working on skills outside shooting? Should he stop recruiting better players that put pressure to perform on the guys already here? Unless you answer yes to all those questions, your entire post is completely unfounded, inane, and flat out wrong.
Whoa, big guy. You defend Wojo by saying he brought in three guys last year who were "impact freshmen". Great. Having 3 "impact freshmen" would normally mean better days ahead for a program. But not if a year later two of them are gone and the other is no longer an "impact player". And if you think Haanif Cheatham is a Big East "impact player" this year, you're nuts. He's a mess and anyone watching him knows it. Want silly, unfounded, inane, and flat out wrong? That would be anyone who cites the wonderfully positive effect Wojo's recruits of two years ago are having on our program this year - and probably in future years. Take a bow.
My biggest reason for optimism is roster balance. Last year we seriously lacked shooting. This year we seriously lacked size. Next year we theoretically should have both.
Our offense this year is elite. Best in modern MU history. Defense is abysmal worst in modern MU history. JJJ and Reinhardt leave and they are actually two of our least efficient offensive players. Luke is one of the best. So overall offense likely takes a step back but I think it still stays top 25. Biggest question mark is defense. Size should help improve the defense but can it improve without harming the offense too much?
I think a defensive stopper grad transfer could do wonders for next year's team.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 11, 2017, 07:46:04 PM
So far, Wojo has added Traci, Cheatham, Howard, Hauser, and Henry, all of whom were impactful frosh. Odds are 1-2 of his freshmen will be similar next year, and our biggest problem is the defense that will benefit from adding long, athletic players.
Howard and Hauser are future stars and will continue that ascent. We won't be great, but we have the foundation of a great offense and next year's length will improve the defense. It will also help having passionate senior leaders like Duane and Rowsey.
Recruiting wise, Joey Hauser is on the horizon and can be what Henry should've been with a talented supporting cast.
At least that's what I'm telling myself to get through this stretch.
cant forget Froling
Quote from: GE911 on February 11, 2017, 07:47:17 PM
I'll take a stab at it!
1. Wojo has to actually rebuild a program. He unfairly gets compared to buzz, but buzz only had to sustain and then build from a sting foundation. Wojo does not have that luxury.
2. Wojo can recruit. No one questions that.
2a. Wojo first class, wasn't a class just bodies in MU uniforms.
2b. Wojo' second class included McDonalds all American who is now gone pro.
2c. You could look at this year's class as the first recruiting class that stays for mutiple years. (Sans cheatham)
3. Just like the team, I hope Wojo also sees his coaching staff as a work in progress.
4. I said at the beginning of the season we were still a few years from the tournament and everyone was ok with it then. We beat nova and then people thought that we were going to be ranked. We need to temper expectations.
5. It's been awhile since we have had good shooters. We now have then but need other missing pieces. Wojo got the shooters, let's see if he can get the other players needed.
You forgot that he has coached the two softest most heartless teams in the last 40 years at MU
I am losing faith slowly in the basketball program I love.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 11, 2017, 11:05:37 PM
Whoa, big guy. You defend Wojo by saying he brought in three guys last year who were "impact freshmen". Great. Having 3 "impact freshmen" would normally mean better days ahead for a program. But not if a year later two of them are gone and the other is no longer an "impact player". And if you think Haanif Cheatham is a Big East "impact player" this year, you're nuts. He's a mess and anyone watching him knows it. Want silly, unfounded, inane, and flat out wrong? That would be anyone who cites the wonderfully positive effect Wojo's recruits of two years ago are having on our program this year - and probably in future years. Take a bow.
And the award for dodging the questions completely goes to Lennys.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 12, 2017, 05:22:21 AM
And the award for dodging the questions completely goes to Lennys.
Here's the difference: Lenny doesn't pretend to be some sort of an "expert" on basketball.
But in this case he is spot on calling out the silliness of your assertion.
Well done, Mr. Bernstein.
Quote from: GoldenEagles32 on February 12, 2017, 12:36:09 AM
I am losing faith slowly in the basketball program I love.
Can you lose faith a lot faster then?
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 12, 2017, 05:22:21 AM
And the award for dodging the questions completely goes to Lennys.
For guys with post names hinting at what milwaukee is about, brew and a tavern, you too should be more simpatico.
Play 5 competitive games to end the conference season, play in NIT/NCAA tourney and we all feel a little better.
One positive: little to no chance of Wojo leaving for another job given last year's extension
I have a somewhat different take.
Our team is like a hot shot baseball pitcher just called up from the minors. He has the tools and his first couple of starts, he throws shut-outs and two- hitters (the baseball equivalent of the Villanova and Creighton games).
Inevitably, someone figures out the book on the pitcher. He goes through the league and managers write the book on him. His fastball still blazes at 100 miles per hour, but hitters learn to wait on the change-up or the curve ball and blast him into the second deck. The pitcher gets frustrated and his control falters until he too learns the book in major league hitters. Maybe he picks up a slider or even a knuckleball, but he learns to pitch in the majors and becomes a star.
First time through the league for us, we were writing the book on ourselves. We were beating people from outside. We shot well and we won. After the Villanova game, coaches adapted their defenses to stop where we were going to beat them. And it has worked. And it will until our guys adjust and learn to play with what we're given. In our case, they'll give Fishy his 12 points because they know aint going to beat 'em. Reinhardt, Rousey and Howard will!
We'll learn. With what's coming in, we'll be fine -- I hope!
Keefe
I wish everyone on here knew MU ball history and had expectations for the future as Lenny does. He's in my Scoop HOF.
Guy asks for reasons for optimism. People offer reasons for optimism. Others attack those people and completely ignore the topic at hand. Yup...typical Scoop after a loss.
I will put my 2 cents into this conversation which probably will not make some people to happy but realize the truth,
1) The 2 freshman, Howard being 17 has done a great job considering he still should be in high school. He probably could have used the extra year in school. Great
shooter, but not quick enough yet to guard most Big East points. But pressure on him and he has trouble. Secondly, being small he has to realize what to do when
he gets past his man. Against Butler, got the shot blocked. Will learn that the next few years, but will will take time. Defense not quick enough. Hauser should be
7th or 8th man on most teams, tweener, not a 4, not big enough, as a 3 not quick enough. Complimentary player, good player on a good team, on MU, does not
bring enough to the table right now, future, really not sure. Might be over recruited, even by his brother. Talking about his brother, he does not have elite
athleticism either. Will have to play the 3, same position as Sam.
2) Cheatham - this is a problem this year and next. Wojo must see more about him then what fans see. A very average athlete, can not jump, and is so dominant
with his left hand, not hard to defend. Zero mid range game, not strong enough defend a Peak or quick enough to guard, Pryor. Do the coaches work with him
at all? It sure does not seem it or he can not grasp using his right hand??
3) JJJ, no basketball IQ, we have talked about him to much. Glad to see him go. Elite athlete that does not bring it.
4) Luke, an above average center, that is not a leader, very quiet. Perfect example, yesterday, if he was strong enough, MU should have been at least even the first
8 minutes but he missed 3 bunnies. Not strong enough. Wojo coaching? Why have they not given his game more verity on the offensive end? Always sets up
back to the basket. After 3 1/2 years seriously? Govan can do both. An issue
5) Keep recruiting grad transfers and they have one agenda. Need just to recruit 4 year players, but that is so hard as he has 5 new players next year and 2 more
to use. The classes are not spaced. If he signs 1 more player, it will affect the other 11, freshman fine, grad student. Not sure.
6) In a nutshell, the Villy win brought great hope, but Villy lost that game more than MU won that game. Every team MU goes up against is more physical and
talented, next year they might be able to compete on the boards. Rebuild - another 2 but more likely 3 years to go. Sad to say.
I still believe we will turn this season around, I'd like to see us press right from the start of the game and force our opponents to adapt to our up tempo. I also like the height we have coming in and hopefully we can play better D and rebound on the offensive end. I will never give up on my team.
Quote from: Goose on February 12, 2017, 08:24:28 AM
Keefe
I wish everyone on here knew MU ball history and had expectations for the future as Lenny does. He's in my Scoop HOF.
Oh please. Everyone wants to have high expectations. People simply differ if we are on that path.
Vinnie
I strongly disagree on shared expectations. Respect your opinion but I hear a ton different expectations on here.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on February 12, 2017, 09:54:34 AM
Oh please. Everyone wants to have high expectations. People simply differ if we are on that path.
I don't necessarily agree Vinnie...I guess it depends on what one considers high expectations..for me, it's making this program Elite, one of the tops in the country year after year, kind of like Gonzaga only better. Yearly tourney appearances, Elite 8's, Final fours and Ulitmately national championships. MU can be that program. But every time I say that people tell me MU can't be elite. I say BS.
Quote from: dgies9156 on February 12, 2017, 08:08:51 AM
I have a somewhat different take.
Our team is like a hot shot baseball pitcher just called up from the minors. He has the tools and his first couple of starts, he throws shut-outs and two- hitters (the baseball equivalent of the Villanova and Creighton games).
Inevitably, someone figures out the book on the pitcher. He goes through the league and managers write the book on him. His fastball still blazes at 100 miles per hour, but hitters learn to wait on the change-up or the curve ball and blast him into the second deck. The pitcher gets frustrated and his control falters until he too learns the book in major league hitters. Maybe he picks up a slider or even a knuckleball, but he learns to pitch in the majors and becomes a star.
First time through the league for us, we were writing the book on ourselves. We were beating people from outside. We shot well and we won. After the Villanova game, coaches adapted their defenses to stop where we were going to beat them. And it has worked. And it will until our guys adjust and learn to play with what we're given. In our case, they'll give Fishy his 12 points because they know aint going to beat 'em. Reinhardt, Rousey and Howard will!
We'll learn. With what's coming in, we'll be fine -- I hope!
Agree with this and there is no fear of Fischer, has one move, cant dunk, doesnt really rebound, is not hard to guard and can not make free throws. Pick ur poison and Fischer scares no one.
Quote from: Goose on February 12, 2017, 10:08:44 AM
Vinnie
I strongly disagree on shared expectations. Respect your opinion but I hear a ton different expectations on here.
Expectations for the program I think are universal across the fanbase. In the tournament every year and making long runs every couple of years building towards another national championship.
The difference comes on expectations for individual seasons. Some apply their program expectations to every season regardless of the roster. Others look at the roster and make adjustments based on that. Neither is wrong, just different kinds of fans. Fortunately, Wojo doesn't adjust based on the roster. He expects us to win every year.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on February 12, 2017, 09:54:34 AM
Oh please. Everyone wants to have high expectations. People simply differ if we are on that path.
+1
I want Marquette to be an elite program. I want us to be routinely ranked, in the tournament, and with a legitimate chance to be a Final Four and National Title contender at least every few years. I'm okay with where we were under Crean and Buzz, and not happy with where we are now.
That said, I also realize that programs don't get there overnight. Buzz left a trainwreck. This was never a 2-year job, unless you had John Calipari as Buzz's replacement. It was always going to take 3-5 years to become nationally relevant again. That's just the reality of the situation. Many refuse to accept that reality.
I'm not sure we're on the right path, but I am positive that it's too soon to say decisively that we aren't.
The reason this season is disappointing is due to our defense. We fix that and we will be competitive. Hopefully the guys coming in can at least defend the rim and as has been stated we need a true PF. I like to think the glass is half full and we have to fill the other half.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on February 12, 2017, 11:07:51 AM
The reason this season is disappointing is due to our defense. We fix that and we will be competitive. Hopefully the guys coming in can at least defend the rim and as has been stated we need a true PF. I like to think the glass is half full and we have to fill the other half.
The defense is disappointing, but I think it's all due to the artificially inflated expectations we had after beating Villanova. Say we lose that game, even if we go 2-3 in the next 5 (turn Providence into a win), we're 6-7 and while disappointed, the same record with two road losses and a home loss to a top-25 team don't look so bad.
We felt like world-beaters after taking down 'Nova. I wouldn't trade that experience because it was fantastic, but if our offense had stayed effective and we get the shot to fall against Providence and complete the comeback against Butler, which would have taken all of 6 more points (two of which were in the air at the buzzer) I don't think there's all that much disappointment.
That's my biggest concern right now. It isn't any of the games taken as a snapshot, it's the trend the past 5 games. Individually, they are all forgivable, but as a whole, it feels like a trend.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 12, 2017, 10:36:34 AM
+1
I want Marquette to be an elite program. I want us to be routinely ranked, in the tournament, and with a legitimate chance to be a Final Four and National Title contender at least every few years. I'm okay with where we were under Crean and Buzz, and not happy with where we are now.
That said, I also realize that programs don't get there overnight. Buzz left a trainwreck. This was never a 2-year job, unless you had John Calipari as Buzz's replacement. It was always going to take 3-5 years to become nationally relevant again. That's just the reality of the situation. Many refuse to accept that reality.
I'm not sure we're on the right path, but I am positive that it's too soon to say decisively that we aren't.
Pretty much agree with all this, brew, except disagree about it being too soon to say that we are not on the right path. I believe we are not. The creighton and Villanova wins looked like we were, but the bed has been soiled since then. While there are a few games left, it appears this will be Wojo's third year of not making the dance. If that happens, we can definitely say for sure we are not in the right direction.
Quote from: Goose on February 12, 2017, 10:08:44 AM
Vinnie
I strongly disagree on shared expectations. Respect your opinion but I hear a ton different expectations on here.
Goose -
Everybody has high hopes.
But not high expectations.
Big difference.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 12, 2017, 05:22:21 AM
And the award for dodging the questions completely goes to Lennys.
I didn't "dodge" any questions. I assumed they were rhetorical ramblings since they had nothing to do with the topic. But of course I would take a one and done. And of course I'm all for recruiting higher level players than Traci Carter.
You can't have it both ways, Brew. If you give Wojo credit for recruiting three "impact freshmen" (who won nothing) isn't it fair to point out that one year later two of them no longer have any impact and the other one is looking more journeyman than star?
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 12, 2017, 10:36:34 AM
+1
I want Marquette to be an elite program. I want us to be routinely ranked, in the tournament, and with a legitimate chance to be a Final Four and National Title contender at least every few years. I'm okay with where we were under Crean and Buzz, and not happy with where we are now.
That said, I also realize that programs don't get there overnight. Buzz left a trainwreck. This was never a 2-year job, unless you had John Calipari as Buzz's replacement. It was always going to take 3-5 years to become nationally relevant again. That's just the reality of the situation. Many refuse to accept that reality.
I'm not sure we're on the right path, but I am positive that it's too soon to say decisively that we aren't.
Just curious, but when would you be convinced that MU is not on the right path?
To the original question...we aren't toast yet. Re formulate...4-1 or 3-2 with 2BET wins or 3-2 with 1 BET win and a SH meltdown and a weird bubble......heck what about 5-0?
And to think that I saw it on Mulberry Street... ;D
Quote from: Eldon on February 12, 2017, 03:34:48 PM
Just curious, but when would you be convinced that MU is not on the right path?
See the other thread I started, but if we don't make the NIT this year, my already existent concerns will grow. Next year should be NCAA or bust, and I feel we should be competing for conference titles by Spring 2019.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 12, 2017, 03:10:39 PMYou can't have it both ways, Brew. If you give Wojo credit for recruiting three "impact freshmen" (who won nothing) isn't it fair to point out that one year later two of them no longer have any impact and the other one is looking more journeyman than star?
Not if you don't take context. One of those players he recruited was so good that he went to the NBA as a top-20 pick. One of them started as a freshman, but the coach brought in an even better player that threatened his playing time. So the only way your "both ways" line holds any water is if you want to refuse McDonald's All-American talent that wants to come here and you want the coach to stop recruiting better players than are on his current roster. That's not rhetorical in the least, it's the reality of the situation.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 12, 2017, 05:07:49 PM
See the other thread I started, but if we don't make the NIT this year, my already existent concerns will grow. Next year should be NCAA or bust, and I feel we should be competing for conference titles by Spring 2019.
I cannot wrap my mind around competing for a conference title in 2019. I can't see anyone on the roster (besides Howard and Hauser) making that leap. I sincerely hope I am wrong.
Quote from: warriorfred on February 12, 2017, 06:08:43 PM
I cannot wrap my mind around competing for a conference title in 2019. I can't see anyone on the roster (besides Howard and Hauser) making that leap. I sincerely hope I am wrong.
The roster would potentially be this:
Seniors: Cheatham, Heldt
Juniors: Howard, Sam Hauser, Froling, Anim
Sophomores: John, Eke, Cain
Freshmen: Joey Hauser, Bailey
I don't know if that roster competes. 7/11 have never played meaningful minutes for us. Joey may go elsewhere. But that seems to be the roster Wojo wants to build. Potentially another player or two (Greg Elliott and TJ Moss, maybe) to round it out, but if that was the roster in 2018-19 and we were still on the bubble, I don't think there's any defense one could come up with to keep Wojo.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 12, 2017, 05:10:28 PM
Not if you don't take context. One of those players he recruited was so good that he went to the NBA as a top-20 pick. One of them started as a freshman, but the coach brought in an even better player that threatened his playing time. So the only way your "both ways" line holds any water is if you want to refuse McDonald's All-American talent that wants to come here and you want the coach to stop recruiting better players than are on his current roster. That's not rhetorical in the least, it's the reality of the situation.
I'll grant you that a "one and done" is a different animal. He doesn't help a rebuild much but as a coach you can't really say no. The other two guys you consider "impact" players, though...I don't think impact players leave the Big East for LaSalle - they go the other direction. And the idea that Haanif Cheatham is an impact player in the Big East is laughable.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 12, 2017, 05:07:49 PM
See the other thread I started, but if we don't make the NIT this year, my already existent concerns will grow. Next year should be NCAA or bust, and I feel we should be competing for conference titles by Spring 2019.
I agree but there has been little evidence to support MU getting there. Everyone knows the plug won't be pulled after this year but barring a near miraculous end to this season, next year has to be NCAA or bust. There are a lot of red flags at this point.
Talent level on this year's team is pathetically mediocre. They are very slow-a-foot and have similar strengths and weaknesses, which includes a below average basketball IQ for players on this level. There is no on-the-floor leader. Instead we have a team that plays not to lose, rather than fighting to win. For those thinking the season will somehow be salvaged in the remaining games, think with your head and not your heart. Your eyes are not deceiving you.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 12, 2017, 06:42:53 PM
Talent level on this year's team is pathetically mediocre. They are very slow-a-foot and have similar strenghts and weaknesses, which includes a below average basketball IQ for players on this level. There is no on-the-floor leader. Instead we have a team that plays not to lose, rather than fighting to win. For those thinking the season will somehow be salvaged in the remaining games, think with your head and not your heart. Your eyes are not deceiving you.
I'm sorry, you're not allowed to author coherent and valuable posts, ai'na?
Holy crap, that was 4ever?!?!?!? Recognizable as English, punctuation, capitalization, coherent. Feeling a little unsettled.
Yeah dudes, i'm pissed. Winter sucks donkey balls 'round here wen Warrior hoops blow, ai na?
Quote from: Goose on February 12, 2017, 08:24:28 AM
Keefe
I wish everyone on here knew MU ball history and had expectations for the future as Lenny does. He's in my Scoop HOF.
Joe
There are a handful of us who have been involved in the program actively since the Glory Years. You and Lenny are in that group and have a keen appreciation for what basketball means for the university.
We have expectations and they are far from being met. And as we both know, there is increasing frustration within the core cadre of backers who make Marquette hoops run. This season has been a major disappointment. The off season will come early once again and it will be interesting to see what transpires.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 12, 2017, 02:54:00 PM
Goose -
Everybody has high hopes.
But not high expectations.
Big difference.
Anyone harboring hopes for this team is absurdly delusional. Until very recently we expected to run roughshod over the St John's and Providence's of the world. Now, every game is a crapshoot.
When you go into combat you look to destroy the enemy with extreme prejudice. Anything less than that is unacceptable. The current coach has not instilled that killer instinct in his team.
Quote from: keefe on February 12, 2017, 08:27:11 PM
Joe
There are a handful of us who have been involved in the program actively since the Glory Years. You and Lenny are in that group and have a keen appreciation for what basketball means for the university.
We have expectations and they are far from being met. And as we both know, there is increasing frustration within the core cadre of backers who make Marquette hoops run. This season has been a major disappointment. The off season will come early once again and it will be interesting to see what transpires.
You know less than what you want other people to believe you know if you think anything might "transpire" this offseason or if you think people who make those decisions are unhappy with the direction of the program.
For people who are so well traveled and claim to be super tough bad boys there sure is a lot of whining coming from some posters about a child's game played by 17-22 year old kids.
Many people whining about a lack of toughness on the team. Oh the irony.
Quote from: WithoutBias on February 12, 2017, 08:39:29 PM
You know less than what you want other people to believe you know if you think anything might "transpire" this offseason or if you think people who make those decisions are unhappy with the direction of the program.
For people who are so well traveled and claim to be super tough bad boys there sure is a lot of whining coming from some posters about a child's game played by 17-22 year old kids.
Many people whining about a lack of toughness on the team. Oh the irony.
Whining?
Hardly. This team is not competitive. And the program is mired in mediocrity.
And there are people very unhappy with this season.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 12, 2017, 06:42:53 PM
Talent level on this year's team is pathetically mediocre. They are very slow-a-foot and have similar strengths and weaknesses, which includes a below average basketball IQ for players on this level. There is no on-the-floor leader. Instead we have a team that plays not to lose, rather than fighting to win. For those thinking the season will somehow be salvaged in the remaining games, think with your head and not your heart. Your eyes are not deceiving you.
Could you please translate that . Thanks.
Posters keep saying the comparison to Buzz is unfair, because he did not have to rebuild. He did inherit a great team. However, the next year he had to replace four starters which included three of our top 10 all-time scorers. That was one quick rebuild.
This off season Wojo better talk to Coach K and get some advice
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 12, 2017, 06:39:29 PM
I'll grant you that a "one and done" is a different animal. He doesn't help a rebuild much but as a coach you can't really say no. The other two guys you consider "impact" players, though...I don't think impact players leave the Big East for LaSalle - they go the other direction. And the idea that Haanif Cheatham is an impact player in the Big East is laughable.
The kid's from Philly. Villanova wasn't an option. Not sure what "other way" was there. Penn State? Maryland? Do they even have scholarships open? If he truly wanted to be home, the A-10 was pretty much the highest league there.
Haanif has had a step down. But he was a starter and I don't think anyone had any question he was an impactful frosh. I'm not calling him a star, I'm saying he had a significant positive impact on this team last year. He's regressed in many ways, mostly shooting the basketball, but in other ways he's improved. He's definitely far from a perfect player, but also far from a finished product.
But again, I specifically said "impactful frosh". Both Traci and Haanif were starters on a competitive Big East team as freshmen. Not as good a team as we'd hope, but one that was clearly better than year one. I chose those words carefully, and picked them specifically because Wojo's track record with freshmen can be used to give hope (the point of this thread) to the poster that Cain, Eke, or John might be more college-ready than we expect and provide meaningful, valuable minutes in their first year.
It had nothing to do whatsoever with what either Traci or Haanif did this year. Nothing. Re-read my post if it's that confusing. I picked my words with care and was as straight-forward as I could be. Your entire diatribe about what happened the next year completely missed the point of the paragraph.
Quote from: keefe on February 12, 2017, 08:45:53 PM
Whining?
Hardly. This team is not competitive. And the program is mired in mediocrity.
And there are people very unhappy with this season.
Others may have a different definition but whining to me means complaining about a problem without offering a solution. You have identified the problem. Its a problem we all have. What is your solution?
Take away their practice unis for starters.
Until they play like Warriors.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 12, 2017, 10:36:46 PM
Your entire diatribe about what happened the next year completely missed the point of the paragraph.
My "entire diatribe?" Seriously? Yours is the diatribe, replete with personal attacks (silly, inane, unfounded, etc.) and misstatements of facts. You claim to "choose your words carefully". Maybe - but incorrectly.
Quote from: WithoutBias on February 12, 2017, 08:39:29 PM
You know less than what you want other people to believe you know if you think anything might "transpire" this offseason or if you think people who make those decisions are unhappy with the direction of the program.
For people who are so well traveled and claim to be super tough bad boys there sure is a lot of whining coming from some posters about a child's game played by 17-22 year old kids.
Many people whining about a lack of toughness on the team. Oh the irony.
+1
Quote from: keefe on February 12, 2017, 08:45:53 PM
Whining?
Hardly. This team is not competitive. And the program is mired in mediocrity.
And there are people very unhappy with this season.
Yep. And so far the cavalry is not coming next year with several unproven players coming in. Wait till next year is becoming the mantra for MU fans.
79Warriors
Spot on. I am surprised with the number of folks expecting next year to be much improved. I think replacing the three departing guys will be very difficult. All three are legit D1 players and are in any rotation in the country. They may lack leadership skills but they are basketball players.
Hey ya'll. Buzz had to rebuild a program as well and in year 3 looks poised to get an NCAA tournament bid. Marquette and wojo? Not so much. The guy just can't get it done.
Next season we might take a minor step back but the year after i think we will be majorly improved. Just have to be patient
Quote from: GoldenEagles32 on February 13, 2017, 11:20:26 AM
Next season we might take a minor step back but the year after i think we will be majorly improved. Just have to be patient
That would be absurd and prove the incompetence of our athletic department. A head coach at Marquette should not get until year FIVE to make the post season. ridiculous any way you spin it...
Quote from: Al Davis on February 13, 2017, 11:26:57 AM
That would be absurd and prove the incompetence of our athletic department. A head coach at Marquette should not get until year FIVE to make the post season. ridiculous any way you spin it...
I think we will make the postseason this year
Quote from: GoldenEagles32 on February 13, 2017, 12:11:58 PM
I think we will make the postseason this year
My only thinking is that we did not make the NIT last season with 20 wins... we're looking like we're not even there this year
Quote from: Al Davis on February 13, 2017, 12:17:52 PM
My only thinking is that we did not make the NIT last season with 20 wins... we're looking like we're not even there this year
look at the new bracket joe came out with, look at bracketmatrix
Quote from: Al Davis on February 13, 2017, 12:17:52 PM
My only thinking is that we did not make the NIT last season with 20 wins... we're looking like we're not even there this year
We are in a much better position RPI wise than we were last year. According to RPI Wizard, if we finish 3-2 (winning home games) and even with a loss in the first round of the BET, we are sitting at 75. Last year we were at 110.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on February 13, 2017, 12:22:41 PM
We are in a much better position RPI wise than we were last year. According to RPI Wizard, if we finish 3-2 (winning home games) and even with a loss in the first round of the BET, we are sitting at 75. Last year we were at 110.
I feel like RPI is overrated
Quote from: GoldenEagles32 on February 13, 2017, 12:23:34 PM
I feel like RPI is overrated
I agree with you, but the NCAA and NIT selection committees use it as a tool.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on February 13, 2017, 12:25:16 PM
I agree with you, but the NCAA and NIT selection committees use it as a tool.
top 50 wins and SOS are more important imo
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 13, 2017, 07:12:42 AM
My "entire diatribe?" Seriously? Yours is the diatribe, replete with personal attacks (silly, inane, unfounded, etc.) and misstatements of facts. You claim to "choose your words carefully". Maybe - but incorrectly.
Your misunderstanding is not my responsibility. Your inability to answer non-rhetorical questions is also not my fault.
Quote from: Goose on February 13, 2017, 11:02:01 AM
79Warriors
Spot on. I am surprised with the number of folks expecting next year to be much improved. I think replacing the three departing guys will be very difficult. All three are legit D1 players and are in any rotation in the country. They may lack leadership skills but they are basketball players.
I'm not sure about next year. On paper, I think we take a step back. We lose three starter level players and replace them with a bunch of three stars and a transfer. Could be better but not anything I would put money on. Add a grad transfer and you might have something.
However, I do think the fact the roster will be balanced and Wojo's guys will be another year older could help offset some of what we lose. Lots of ifs. Too early too say definitively is we will be better or worse next season.
I do seem to remember that many here thought it unlikely that we would be better this year with Henry leaving. At this point, I would say that ended up being incorrect.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 13, 2017, 06:20:01 PM
I'm not sure about next year. On paper, I think we take a step back. We lose three starter level players and replace them with a bunch of three stars and a transfer. Could be better but not anything I would put money on. Add a grad transfer and you might have something.
However, I do think the fact the roster will be balanced and Wojo's guys will be another year older could help offset some of what we lose. Lots of ifs. Too early too say definitively is we will be better or worse next season.
I do seem to remember that many here thought it unlikely that we would be better this year with Henry leaving. At this point, I would say that ended up being incorrect.
Agreed