Does the guy ever pass? When he put his head down, my impression is that's it ... he's taking the shot no matter what. You agree?
He took the last shot today (Prov loss). I'm OK with that but when he started that move, why didn't EVERYONE else on the team crash the boards? Did they think he was passing out of that move? They should know him well enough to know it not getting kicked-out. Specifically I'm thinking of Sam standing around 10 to 12 feet from the basket.
Standing around waiting for the kick-out from Reinhart means you're out of the play. So either crash the boards or go sit on the bench.
Thoughts?
Spread the floor and run an isolation. A play as old as basketball itself.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on January 28, 2017, 07:35:13 PM
Spread the floor and run an isolation. A play as old as basketball itself.
I get that, but with six seconds left at the inbound and Reinhart goes into that move with 3 seconds left, and he does not pass out ... crash the boards. No worry about a rebound a fast break the other way.
After Reinhart missed I thought we had time for a for a o-rebound and put but back not enough MU jerseys to do that. Sam was not in position.
Considering Reinhardt has the second highest assist rate on the team in conference play, I'm going to say yes, he does pass. He passed up an open three to pass earlier in the game, I think if he felt someone had a better look, he'd have passed. On the first play, it looked like Cheatham was open, but that play easily could have been a foul and if not for a great block, he probably makes the lay-up. I have to rewatch the second, but I think the problem there was more scripting the play for Reinhardt, who it was pretty clear was going to take the shot. He should've been a decoy the second time.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 28, 2017, 08:06:15 PM
Considering Reinhardt has the second highest assist rate on the team in conference play, I'm going to say yes, he does pass. He passed up an open three to pass earlier in the game, I think if he felt someone had a better look, he'd have passed. On the first play, it looked like Cheatham was open, but that play easily could have been a foul and if not for a great block, he probably makes the lay-up. I have to rewatch the second, but I think the problem there was more scripting the play for Reinhardt, who it was pretty clear was going to take the shot. He should've been a decoy the second time.
Yes he passes, so let me restate ... at the point when he puts his head down to make a move, he is taking the shot. When others put their head down, I get the impression they are still looking for a kick-out.
Again, on the last play, when he started that move, everyone else should have known the shot was going up and crashed the boards.
Quote from: Yukon Cornelius on January 28, 2017, 08:12:35 PM
Yes he passes, so let me restate ... at the point when he puts his head down to make a move, he is taking the shot. When others put their head down, I get the impression they are still looking for a kick-out.
Again, on the last play, when he started that move, everyone else should have known the shot was going up and crashed the boards.
This isn't true either. I don't have specific stats but there were times during the Creighton and Nova game that he kicked out to an open shooter.
Nova 68 Mu 62.
Reinhardt at top puts his head down with 05 seconds left on shot clock in isso. Leans in to drive.
Kicks to Hauser on the left.
Hauser hits 3. BC erupts.
Weak leading question without paying attention to games.
Rinehardt least of our problems and ive said that since the tme that everyone else wanted to get rid of him
The exception proves the rule.
There us a new expression out there, the affermative slight, it might apply here.
This is not a criticism of Reinhart as I said I was ok with the shot. Lots of players are like this, the most famous being MJ. Nothing wrong with his style, just need to recognize what it is.
Rather I'm asking about his teammates, when he went into his move,and you knew the shot was going was going up, why didn't they crash the boards. I'm specifically thinking of Sam. The time to make space via isolation was over. No worry about a rebound and a break the other way. Why stand their 10 feet from the basket and get their too late?
Not saying that would have won the game. But needed to have a plan for a miss.
Who is "Reinhart"?
Because you don't 'know'. You never 'know' for sure.
He actually passed an open 3 during the 1st half. I thought the 1st play was good...going to the hole. When we didn't get a whistle I thought they may try to give Rowsey a look from 3. I know they didn't get the mismatch they wanted but it didn't seem they had a Plan B
Quote from: fjm on January 28, 2017, 10:56:13 PM
Nova 68 Mu 62.
Reinhardt at top puts his head down with 05 seconds left on shot clock in isso. Leans in to drive.
Kicks to Hauser on the left.
Hauser hits 3. BC erupts.
Weak leading question without paying attention to games.
Yep. One of the biggest plays of the game was a Reinhardt pass after he had put his head down....
I think we should bring back the "Automatic" chant for when Katin is at the freethrow line
Quote from: GoldenEagles32 on January 29, 2017, 10:28:30 PM
I think we should bring back the "Automatic" chant for when Katin is at the freethrow line
And rowsey.
Quote from: GoldenEagles32 on January 29, 2017, 10:28:30 PM
I think we should bring back the "Automatic" chant for when Katin is at the freethrow line
Why? Just bc he's the third best FT shooter on the team??
Quote from: Jay Bee on January 29, 2017, 09:01:57 AM
Who is "Reinhart"?
When you are a better journalist that Matt V. you don't need to know how to correctly spell the name of the subject of your OP.
Yes, clickbait, he does.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/269/marquette-golden-eagles
Actually averaging 3.2 assists in conference.
I have a problem with the play call to begin with. Reinhart hit his head on the floor, possibly was concussed, then Wojo goes and presumably calls the next play for him after he clearly was shaking off the cobwebs.
The problem is that it is difficult to run motion and get a good shot in 6 seconds. It is going to have to be a catch, a couple of dribbles, a drive and either a shot or one pass early for a shot. If Wojo had said at 15 seconds, run motion until we get a match up we like, OK. Tough to do in a tight window. So, I don't really have a problem with the last shot.
Quote from: tower912 on January 30, 2017, 11:59:31 AM
The problem is that it is difficult to run motion and get a good shot in 6 seconds. It is going to have to be a catch, a couple of dribbles, a drive and either a shot or one pass early for a shot. If Wojo had said at 15 seconds, run motion until we get a match up we like, OK. Tough to do in a tight window. So, I don't really have a problem with the last shot.
Yep. As Wojo said in the post-game show with Homer, he wanted a drive to the basket. The only problem I had is that no MU players were in position to get a tip-in (see Nova-VA yesterday).
Put another way, were Blue's two game winners good shots or bad shots? Would they have been good shots if he had missed? Was anyone calling for him to give the ball up on either drive. Similar situations. Remember when Jamil gave the ball back to Derrick rather than attack the basket himself or shoot an 18 ft jumper? Was that a good decision? No, in a short time frame, it is better to give the ball to the guy you want to attack the basket. AND, if a foul had been called on KR's first drive, and there could have been, we would all be hailing Wojo as a genius. A fine line. I have no complaints about the last play.
Yep again. There's not a coach in the country that is going to have the primary option with 6 seconds left and down 1 be a three. This was really the only guaranteed successful situation to put yourself in. He got the ball 1 on 1 with the entire side to himself with 6 seconds to play. He's probably played that situation a million times in 1 on 1. Anything with a pass could have been blown up and led to something more ugly. I think Duane was the only other option going to the hoop that he's going to trust, but KR earned the call with his play against Nova. JJJ is too sloppy one on one, Rowsey would have had to pull up and hope for the defender to bite. I don't like KR as much with the mindset of having to get to the rim as he's better working for a step-back/pull-up, but you hope for the best there.
The play before had HC in the corner as a non-factor which allowed his defender to sag and caused KR to pick up his dribble one step too early. KR had his guy on his hip, one more dribble and he could have gone up or under much stronger. Rowsey or Howard there would have kept them honest.
Tip-in seemed to be more of an effort issue than scheme. They didn't really make it difficult for anyone boxing them out.
R-E-I-N-H-A-R-D-T
Also giving the ball with six seconds left to a guy as tall as Rowsey is can be a problem too. Really it wasn't that bad of a look anyway.
My bigger issue was a calling a timeout with 6 seconds left. I think it benefited the defense more than the offense IMHO.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 30, 2017, 12:42:06 PM
My bigger issue was a calling a timeout with 6 seconds left. I think it benefited the defense more than the offense IMHO.
Interesting point. We've actually had some pretty good baseline sets here and there throughout the year. I can only imagine what the outrage here would have been had we not called a timeout and then not even got a shot off in the resulting play though!
Quote from: g0lden3agle on January 30, 2017, 12:45:58 PM
Interesting point. We've actually had some pretty good baseline sets here and there throughout the year. I can only imagine what the outrage here would have been had we not called a timeout and then not even got a shot off in the resulting play though!
Oh I agree. I don't lose much sleep over last second plays. I have never heard someone say after a game winning shot "that was a terrible play call." Similarly, I have almost never heard someone say "that was a great play call" after a missed game winning shot. The value of the play call is based soley on its success, not whether or not it was strategically the best play.
I always go back to Super Bowl XLVIII. Pete Carroll gets blasted because he called a pass play on the 1 yard line and it go picked when he had the unstoppable Marshawn Lynch in the backfield. If they complete that pass, Pete Carroll would get praised as a genius because everyone would have expected him to run it.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 30, 2017, 12:56:34 PM
Oh I agree. I don't lose much sleep over last second plays. I have never heard someone say after a game winning shot "that was a terrible play call." Similarly, I have almost never heard someone say "that was a great play call" after a missed game winning shot. The value of the play call is based soley on its success, not whether or not it was strategically the best play.
I always go back to Super Bowl XLVIII. Pete Carroll gets blasted because he called a pass play on the 1 yard line and it go picked when he had the unstoppable Marshawn Lynch in the backfield. If they complete that pass, Pete Carroll would get praised as a genius because everyone would have expected him to run it.
Except that when Lynch didn't get the ball, in the few seconds before the interception, I had an urgent thought of "What the <expletive deleted> are they doing!?! I'm sure I wasn't alone. If they scored a touchdown there, my thought would have been that Carroll was lucky rather than smart.
Anyway, I certainly didn't have that urgent feeling on Saturday, though I expected them to take a quick early chance on Rowsey either taking a three or trying to draw a foul with his patented pump fake, and if that didn't work go to Reinhardt, JJJ or Wilson on the drive. I wouldn't take issue with what they did do at all, though.
The thing that bothered me was that didn't rush the ball up and we took 7 seconds off the clock before calling the first time out.
With 6 seconds to go you've got to get to the basket and try to draw contact, so Reinhardt is as good a guy as any we have to do that, so no problem there.
Let me clarify... I'm troubled by a guy with a possible concussion taking the last shot.
Is there any indication he had a concussion or was otherwise hampered?
I saw his head hit the floor on that next-to-last shot too. I thought his head must've been less than clear for the final play but the coaches didn't seem to notice.
He was moving his elbow, I think left?, after he hit the floor, so they were probably more concerned with that.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 30, 2017, 12:56:34 PM
Oh I agree. I don't lose much sleep over last second plays. I have never heard someone say after a game winning shot "that was a terrible play call." Similarly, I have almost never heard someone say "that was a great play call" after a missed game winning shot. The value of the play call is based soley on its success, not whether or not it was strategically the best play.
I always go back to Super Bowl XLVIII. Pete Carroll gets blasted because he called a pass play on the 1 yard line and it go picked when he had the unstoppable Marshawn Lynch in the backfield. If they complete that pass, Pete Carroll would get praised as a genius because everyone would have expected him to run it.
I was at that Super Bowl and the entire stadium expected it to go to Marshawn Lynch. The Patriots did their homework though and knew that play was in the arsenal . The kid who intercepted was paying attention in film.
Quote from: tower912 on January 30, 2017, 12:07:51 PM
Put another way, were Blue's two game winners good shots or bad shots? Would they have been good shots if he had missed? Was anyone calling for him to give the ball up on either drive. Similar situations.
I actually thought about this as I was reading the kvetching earlier.
What was Buzz doing, having Vander run essentially the same play he had run just a week earlier? Certainly Davidson had scouted it, right? Why didn't Vander look to pass - what a chucker!
Quote from: MU82 on January 30, 2017, 10:56:33 PM
I actually thought about this as I was reading the kvetching earlier.
What was Buzz doing, having Vander run essentially the same play he had run just a week earlier? Certainly Davidson had scouted it, right? Why didn't Vander look to pass - what a chucker!
Well he made it so i do not think it matters that much anymore
Quote from: GoldenEagles32 on January 31, 2017, 12:37:36 PM
Well he made it so i do not think it matters that much anymore
That's kind of the point.
If a play succeeds, it was a "good one" to most Monday Morning QBs.
If a play fails, it was a "bad one."
Even if it was the same play by the same person. Or a different play by a different person. Or whatever.
Getting scrutinized by knee-jerk interwebs "experts" is one of many reasons D1 coaches get the big bucks.
Quote from: MU82 on January 30, 2017, 10:56:33 PM
I actually thought about this as I was reading the kvetching earlier.
What was Buzz doing, having Vander run essentially the same play he had run just a week earlier? Certainly Davidson had scouted it, right? Why didn't Vander look to pass - what a chucker!
Why would your best player (or anyone else for that matter) pass up a wide open lay up - which is what Blue's quickness/athleticism got him? His ability to create off the dribble vs Katin's? No comparison, no contest.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 31, 2017, 04:20:19 PM
Why would your best player (or anyone else for that matter) pass up a wide open lay up - which is what Blue's quickness/athleticism got him? His ability to create off the dribble vs Katin's? No comparison, no contest.
Apparently you forgot how bad Vander Blue was at layups.
Quote from: forgetful on January 31, 2017, 05:45:21 PM
Apparently you forgot how bad Vander Blue was at layups.
Ton of Scoop discussion centered on Vander's chocolate wrists at the rim.
Quote from: forgetful on January 31, 2017, 05:45:21 PM
Apparently you forgot how bad Vander Blue was at layups.
Not by the time he was a junior.
Quote from: forgetful on January 31, 2017, 05:45:21 PM
Apparently you forgot how bad Vander Blue was at layups.
Assuming this was supposed to be in teal. If not, WTF?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 31, 2017, 07:48:55 PM
Assuming this was supposed to be in teal. If not, WTF?
He was terrible then improved that season.
"Terrible" is overstating it. He had trouble finishing in traffic.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 31, 2017, 07:48:55 PM
Assuming this was supposed to be in teal. If not, WTF?
Not necessarily in teal. He and Cheats shared a problem for their first two years. As others have noted, improved his junior year.
Quote from: forgetful on January 31, 2017, 09:56:01 PM
Not necessarily in teal. He and Cheats shared a problem for their first two years. As others have noted, improved his junior year.
He had trouble finishing in traffic (as did JFB, by the way) early in his MU career. By junior year (the game Mike referenced was in the NCAAs of that year) he was a flat out stud. Lay ups, contested or not, weren't a problem. Not even a little.
Seem to recall vander driving the lane at the Garden with the clock winding down and putting it up to beat St Johns. Looked like he knew what he was doing. Then the boys paraded around carrying the Big East Trophy.
I'll be there tonight. Not as big a game but hoping for a similiar result.
I didn't like the result of the shot, but I'm cool with the play drawn and the decision made.
Listen... if Bobby Plump (Jimmy Chitwood) missed the buzzer beater at Hinkle (back when the lead paint was still fresh), nobody makes a movie about the Milan Indians. But if coach let someone else take that shot or had Bobby/Jimmy passed off (and either way it missed), there might be a chance a different movie about Milan gets made.
Moral: There are two ways to avoid humiliation... either execute or simply do the right thing.
Epilogue: Nothing remotely humiliating about Katin's shot.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 01, 2017, 02:47:18 PM
He had trouble finishing in traffic (as did JFB, by the way) early in his MU career. By junior year (the game Mike referenced was in the NCAAs of that year) he was a flat out stud. Lay ups, contested or not, weren't a problem. Not even a little.
This is the correct version.
Worst thin' in da world is trouble finishin', hey?
Quote from: Mutaman on February 01, 2017, 03:03:37 PM
Seem to recall vander driving the lane at the Garden with the clock winding down and putting it up to beat St Johns. Looked like he knew what he was doing. Then the boys paraded around carrying the Big East Trophy.
I'll be there tonight. Not as big a game but hoping for a similiar result.
You may have to provide the trophy tonight. Maybe you can talk Deon into carrying it around after they win.