Who would you say was better as a freshman, Markus Howard or Dominic James?
After his freshman season, I thought that DJ was destined for the NBA, but he ended up taking a backseat to Matthews and McNeal.
I'm only working with second hand accounts of James' freshman year but my understanding was that he was pretty one dimensional. Similar to Cheatham last year where he looked great as a freshman but because everyone focused on Novak he was able to capitalize on that.
James was an excellent talent and athlete. Too early to make conclusions, but it looks like Howard has big time basketball IQ. Howard also flat out knows how to put the ball in the basket.
James.
Howard is a MUCH better shooter but DJ was a better overall player at this point, taking into consideration ball-handling, defense, rebounding and creating. DJ was 2nd on the team in scoring, steals and rebounding (!), in addition to leading the team in assists. Howard has the potential to be an all-time great MU point guard but DJ was better as a frosh.
As a frosh, DJ was simply a superior defender. Hard to see Markus being a better defender when he is a senior as DJ was a lock down defender as a senior. Markus obviously has a huge edge offensively.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 12, 2017, 12:32:16 PM
James.
Howard is a MUCH better shooter but DJ was a better overall player at this point, taking into consideration ball-handling, defense, rebounding and creating. DJ was 2nd on the team in scoring, steals and rebounding (!), in addition to leading the team in assists. Howard has the potential to be an all-time great MU point guard but DJ was better as a frosh.
Results were better, but I don't know that DJ was necessarily better for sure. Senior year Novak has no comparison on this team, other than maybe Howard himself from a scoring and spread the floor standpoint. JjJ is probably a better play on offense then Jerel but worse on defense. Haanif is probably slightly better than Wes but worse than Joe Chapman. Barro is probably a wash with Luke and Hauser/Katin are a step above Amo/Fitz.
So with a better team, DJ outperformed Howard. I have no way to prove this, but if you flipped Howard and DJ, the 06 is amazing offensively and struggles some defensively while the 16 team gets better defensively but is probably considerably worse offensively.
The real question is who was a better 17 year old?
Markus 2 NBA
James couldn't fill Howard's Bike, ai na?
Howard is a far better shooter. James was more athletic, a better defender. Glad both came to MU.
Agree,
Dominc James was an absolutely amazing athlete that played basketball and could overwhelm others with his athleticism.
Marcus is supremely skilled and is athletic, yet no where near as athletic as DJ.
Combine the two n you get a guy like Russell Westbrook
At this point we have to assume that teams are scouting & actively trying to stop Howard right? We dont really have a 'star' outside of him on the team. That makes me feel like he may be better at this point - hanging 22 on a team we already played once is a pretty strong result (i.e. they knew what was coming and still couldn't stop him).
James is 30 and hasn't played competitive basketball for 3+ years. I think Markus is better now.
Quote from: MU82 on January 12, 2017, 11:19:22 PM
James is 30 and hasn't played competitive basketball for 3+ years. I think Markus is better now.
Dom cutting it up in Qatar
http://basketball.asia-basket.com/team/Qatar/El-Jaysh-Army-SC-Doha/6038
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 12, 2017, 11:28:24 PM
Dom cutting it up in Qatar
http://basketball.asia-basket.com/team/Qatar/El-Jaysh-Army-SC-Doha/6038
Thanks Dr. B. I somehow missed that. The last thing I had read was that he had given up hoops to be some kind of balloon entrepreneur.
I was checking same. DJ Frosh stats: 15.3 points, 5.4 assists, 4.5 reb, 1.6 stl. He was better as a frosh... more complete. But, because he got to the hole so easily, no-one realized until much later that he couldn't shoot, and his shot was fundamentally flawed in many ways. Howard has a higher ceiling, because he can shoot.
Steve Novak doesn't have the senior year he had without Dominic James.
A former Marquette player who's been around the program for 64 years told me Dominic James is the best on ball defender he's ever seen at Marquette and the when you add in his assists and top 5 scoring, one of MU's best ever.
James was the best on ball defender I have ever seen at MU. Watching him play D was extremely enjoyable and much appreciated by this fan. He really was the definition of lock down D and that is my favorite kind of D.
Yup, Dom could do more things simply because he was a freakish athlete with unreal hops. Earlier in the year when the discussion was about MU's porous defense, someone reposted the youtube of Dom going up and stuffing a 6'8" PF at the rim. Amazing. (Ah, here it is, about 25 seconds in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6aVbxKf1WM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6aVbxKf1WM))
But although he was a scorer, he was a poor shooter and a really poor FT shooter. But when he focused more on being a defender and distributor MU thrived. His broken foot senior year derailed a team that had a real chance to make a run at the Final Four.
All that said, the early returns suggest to me that Markus has the potential to be better overall. You just can't teach his shooting ability (just as you couldn't teach Dom's athletic ability), and he seems to have a fantastic BB IQ.
Quote from: TedBaxter on January 13, 2017, 01:39:13 AM
Steve Novak doesn't have the senior year he had without Dominic James.
A former Marquette player who's been around the program for 64 years told me Dominic James is the best on ball defender he's ever seen at Marquette and the when you add in his assists and top 5 scoring, one of MU's best ever.
Agree... DJ was actually phenomenal at eveything but his jumpshot. His on ball desfense was a work of art. His combination of strength and quickness and his ability to drive was almost superhuman. Possibly the best athlete to ever play at MU
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 12, 2017, 11:28:24 PM
Dom cutting it up in Qatar
http://basketball.asia-basket.com/team/Qatar/El-Jaysh-Army-SC-Doha/6038
Give that man a Pullon!
Ironically, the last shot James made before he hurt his foot was a perfect-form, nothing-but-net 3.
And DJ was by no means a bad offensive player. Crean screwed eveything up his sophomore year by playing him more off the ball andattempting to make him the primary scoring option. Started taking way to many shots as creans sets were for dj shots n he was forced into taking shots that didnt fit his skill set. He struggled n fans started in on him. Was creans fault. When he got back to his strengths , thanks Buzz. Uneducated fans began to think he was pretty good again
Howard
James had super human ability to defend. I know we are talking freshman year, but by his senior year it was a tough process just to get the ball past half court with James defending. I've never seen anything like it before or since then. Always thought he should have gotten the Tyron Lue shot at playing in the league.
Howard seems to be very good to excellent at most skills, but James's defense was all-world if there was such a thing and it completely changed the game. Howard's overall impact might trump James's impact eventually, but has to lead this team to NCAAs to start in my mind, winning matters. I don't care how different the supporting casts were.
Howard has a better offensive game. Dom had the better overall game. Both are/were top tier MU PGs.
I am not sure how Howard would fare against a Louisville press? I think Howard is still learning to play point guard. When Howard's MU career is finished he will unquestionably be considered the better player.
Quote from: dw3dw3dw3 on January 13, 2017, 10:28:12 AM
James had super human ability to defend. I know we are talking freshman year, but by his senior year it was a tough process just to get the ball past half court with James defending. I've never seen anything like it before or since then. Always thought he should have gotten the Tyron Lue shot at playing in the league.
Howard seems to be very good to excellent at most skills, but James's defense was all-world if there was such a thing and it completely changed the game. Howard's overall impact might trump James's impact eventually, but has to lead this team to NCAAs to start in my mind, winning matters. I don't care how different the supporting casts were.
Lue was a better shooter. Which should tell you that, no matter his size, if he continues to shoot like this Markus Howard will be in the NBA.
That being said, Dominic James was fantastic as a freshman, and I would agree is the best on ball defender I have seen at MU. Very reliable with the ball as well. For Markus to be mentioned in that light is quite an accomplishment so far.
Dominic's injury is one of the biggest what-ifs in MU history. Up there with Chones going pro mid-season.
We were 8th in the country, 12-2 in conf and earlier that day the New York Times did 1,000+ words on Buzz. We were officially back.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/25/sports/ncaabasketball/25marquette.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/25/sports/ncaabasketball/25marquette.html)
I don't think comparing stats is fair here. It is like asking the question of who is a better pg, John Stockton or Steph Curry. It largely depends on what you are expecting from a PG.
The other problem with the question is it is asking people to try to undo the memories of James in his last three years (still great). James was pretty absurd his freshman year, he did absolutely everything; but his outside shot was not great. If James had even a good outside shot, he'd still be playing in the NBA as an all-star every year.
Howard (Curry), has otherworldly abilities to shoot the rock, but pales in other parameters compared to James (Stockton/Kidd).
Trying to pick one or the other is pure opinion, we should just be thrilled we've had them both.
Quote from: The Lens on January 13, 2017, 01:04:52 PM
Dominic's injury is one of the biggest what-ifs in MU history. Up there with Chones going pro mid-season.
We were 8th in the country, 12-2 in conf and earlier that day the New York Times did 1,000+ words on Buzz. We were officially back.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/25/sports/ncaabasketball/25marquette.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/25/sports/ncaabasketball/25marquette.html)
While it definitely is a major "what if" let's also step back and be rational, of those 12 wins only two were against a team that would be in the tournament that year (WVU and Nova) and we had lost to two teams that wouldn't make the tournament that year (Dayton and USF). Yes we were obviously much worse without James and probably would've picked up a few more wins but I think that 12-2 is grossly inflated by who we had played.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on January 13, 2017, 01:56:49 PM
While it definitely is a major "what if" let's also step back and be rational, of those 12 wins only two were against a team that would be in the tournament that year (WVU and Nova) and we had lost to two teams that wouldn't make the tournament that year (Dayton and USF). Yes we were obviously much worse without James and probably would've picked up a few more wins but I think that 12-2 is grossly inflated by who we had played.
We were not ranked 8th in the country at that point based on who we had beaten or who we had lost two. That team was absolutely loaded and played like a pack of junk yard dogs. Come with the pomeroy on this one! We were viewed as one of the top teams in the country n would of beat ranked even higher had we beeatn those two teams tgat we should have!
Quote from: forgetful on January 13, 2017, 01:06:37 PM
I don't think comparing stats is fair here. It is like asking the question of who is a better pg, John Stockton or Steph Curry. It largely depends on what you are expecting from a PG.
The other problem with the question is it is asking people to try to undo the memories of James in his last three years (still great). James was pretty absurd his freshman year, he did absolutely everything; but his outside shot was not great. If James had even a good outside shot, he'd still be playing in the NBA as an all-star every year.
Howard (Curry), has otherworldly abilities to shoot the rock, but pales in other parameters compared to James (Stockton/Kidd).
Trying to pick one or the other is pure opinion, we should just be thrilled we've had them both.
I posted this in another thread, but I agree with forgetful here.
If you are comparing the two at this point in their careers, I think that they are about even. Howard can be unreal shooting wise, but James' athleticism and defense were game-changing during his freshman year. Considering both Matthews and McNeal surpassed him, it is tough to remember that he was the best of the Three Amigos his freshman year.
Howard has the ceiling to be a superstar, and one of the best PG to play at MU by the end of his career, which is saying a whole heck of a lot. And, considering he is 17 right now, that's something.
Hes a freshman his age has zero bearing. This whole hes 17 is beyond old, it simply doesnt matter
I will say it again, along the same lines will it be held as a detriment when Bailey comes in as a 20 yr old freshman. Plz stop
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on January 13, 2017, 01:56:49 PM
While it definitely is a major "what if" let's also step back and be rational, of those 12 wins only two were against a team that would be in the tournament that year (WVU and Nova) and we had lost to two teams that wouldn't make the tournament that year (Dayton and USF). Yes we were obviously much worse without James and probably would've picked up a few more wins but I think that 12-2 is grossly inflated by who we had played.
Think about it this way...
With a very limited James, Marquette still should have beat Missouri to get to the Sweet 16. (Only after somehow managing to beat The Legend in the opening round.) That Missouri team then beat Memphis before giving UConn a tough game in the E8.
With a healthy James, Marquette is clearly better than Missouri IMO. Could have definitely been a Final Four team.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on January 13, 2017, 02:53:10 PM
Think about it this way...
With a very limited James, Marquette still should have beat Missouri to get to the Sweet 16. (Only after somehow managing to beat The Legend in the opening round.) That Missouri team then beat Memphis before giving UConn a tough game in the E8.
With a healthy James, Marquette is clearly better than Missouri IMO. Could have definitely been a Final Four team.
And with a healthy James, we probably have a 3 seed and a far easier path to the final four as well.
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on January 13, 2017, 02:36:32 PM
Hes a freshman his age has zero bearing. This whole hes 17 is beyond old, it simply doesnt matter
I will say it again, along the same lines will it be held as a detriment when Bailey comes in as a 20 yr old freshman. Plz stop
Not sure what you mean by this Sandman.
I think the age can matter. Males don't hit their peak physical shape until well into their twenties. At 17, most males are still developing.
So, Howard doing this at his age is pretty remarkable; in some situations, he is truly a boy playing among men. What Howard is doing now takes a ton of talent, which can transcend age. But, it also means that he has the potential to only become more dominant as he ages and grows stronger (and potentially even taller--some continue growing late in their teenage years). With additional strength and muscle mass, and he should be able to defend, rebound, and finish through contact even better--all aspects of his game that he would benefit in enhancing.
On the flip side, I think Bailey coming in as a 20-year old freshman is a positive--he'll be two years further into his growth chart and prime years. Having him until he is 24/25 could be huge, as he physically will be more developed than many that he'll be facing up against.
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on January 13, 2017, 02:36:32 PM
Hes a freshman his age has zero bearing. This whole hes 17 is beyond old, it simply doesnt matter
I will say it again, along the same lines will it be held as a detriment when Bailey comes in as a 20 yr old freshman. Plz stop
It has a ton of bearing on projected growth, especially with NBA scouts ;)
M2N
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on January 13, 2017, 01:56:49 PM
While it definitely is a major "what if" let's also step back and be rational, of those 12 wins only two were against a team that would be in the tournament that year (WVU and Nova) and we had lost to two teams that wouldn't make the tournament that year (Dayton and USF). Yes we were obviously much worse without James and probably would've picked up a few more wins but I think that 12-2 is grossly inflated by who we had played.
Without James, I think we would've beat UConn, Louisville, and Syracuse. At least two of those would've been wins, which would've also made our BET road easier (all three would've given us the 2 seed).
In my lifetime, the James injury was the biggest in season what if. That team was fully capable of winning the BET and making a Final Four run.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on January 13, 2017, 02:53:10 PM
Think about it this way...
With a very limited James, Marquette still should have beat Missouri to get to the Sweet 16. (Only after somehow managing to beat The Legend in the opening round.) That Missouri team then beat Memphis before giving UConn a tough game in the E8.
With a healthy James, Marquette is clearly better than Missouri IMO. Could have definitely been a Final Four team.
I'm in agreement we're better than that Missouri team, though we also likely aren't playing that Missouri team in this world (unless you believe James being healthy doesn't change any regular season wins and loses). We still had a very glaring hole down low and it would've been all matchups. Yes I believe that team was unreal and even better than the DJO/Crowder team in 11-12 but that record of 12-2 is grossly over stated as our schedule had been pretty easy to that point.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on January 13, 2017, 04:02:51 PM
I'm in agreement we're better than that Missouri team, though we also likely aren't playing that Missouri team in this world (unless you believe James being healthy doesn't change any regular season wins and loses). We still had a very glaring hole down low and it would've been all matchups. Yes I believe that team was unreal and even better than the DJO/Crowder team in 11-12 but that record of 12-2 is grossly over stated as our schedule had been pretty easy to that point.
Which is why DJames' defense was so important to that team's success. He extended the opposing PG's point of attack, greatly reducing the amount of time the other team spent in the paint. With him out, our weakness down low was too easily exploited.
Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on January 13, 2017, 04:06:08 PM
Which is why DJames' defense was so important to that team's success. He extended the opposing PG's point of attack, greatly reducing the amount of time the other team spent in the paint. With him out, our weakness down low was too easily exploited.
interesting. Where was his defense against Lowry and Verdejo? I don't know, maybe it's because I'm remembering it as a 17/18yr old senior in high school who expected that team to be all world and was let down but the Dayton and USF losses make me question certain aspects of that team.
Don't get me wrong I'd still take them over ever team since Wade but that doesn't mean I can't question if it was truly a FF caliber team.
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on January 13, 2017, 02:36:32 PM
Hes a freshman his age has zero bearing. This whole hes 17 is beyond old, it simply doesnt matter
I will say it again, along the same lines will it be held as a detriment when Bailey comes in as a 20 yr old freshman. Plz stop
I think his age is an amazing thing. I love it when commentators bring it up. Many posters here said he would be an impact player. I discounted Howard, because he should be a high school senior. I was totally wrong on him being ready to play at this level. I also think he is too small to leave early for the NBA and I hope for our sake that I am not wrong on that belief.
Does anybody know the actual NBA rule. At one time I thought there was an age 19 rule. By that you had to be out of high school a year and also 19 years old by a certain date to turn pro. Is that 19 year old rule still in place and when do you have to be 19 by? If there is a 19 year old rule that would prevent him from turning pro this year and maybe next year. Now do not bother to argue he is not ready for the NBA, it only matters what Howard thinks.
Quote from: bilsu on January 13, 2017, 04:36:18 PM
I think his age is an amazing thing. I love it when commentators bring it up. Many posters here said he would be an impact player. I discounted Howard, because he should be a high school senior. I was totally wrong on him being ready to play at this level. I also think he is too small to leave early for the NBA and I hope for our sake that I am not wrong on that belief.
Does anybody know the actual NBA rule. At one time I thought there was an age 19 rule. By that you had to be out of high school a year and also 19 years old by a certain date to turn pro. Is that 19 year old rule still in place and when do you have to be 19 by? If there is a 19 year old rule that would prevent him from turning pro this year and maybe next year. Now do not bother to argue he is not ready for the NBA, it only matters what Howard thinks.
The rule is twofold. Americans declaring for the draft need to be one year removed from high school and need to turn 19 in the calendar year of the draft. So if Markus had been born 3 months earlier, he'd be able to declare as a freshmen. As he doesn't turn 19 until March 2018, the soonest he could declare is the 2018 NBA draft.
Both great players that we are lucky came to Marquette.
Dom was also a terrific kid whom I was fortunate to meet a few times. No matter the situation, he always made time to talk to fans. Everything I've read and heard about Markus indicates he is the same, and I look forward to meeting him someday.
Overall, my feeling is that Markus' offense is more advanced as a frosh, but Dominic's defense was far better.
My whole point on the age things is yes hes 17 and what hes doing is great but at the end of the day it doesnt mean sqwat. Puts to extra points on the board n in some ways does him a disservice. Age doesnt matter production does n hes getting it dine all that needs to be said
Will never forget when DJ went down in the BC: Dead quiet as he limped off at the time out and I remember thinking there goes the season. Price dominated Acker. Sinking feeling although the game was competitive.
http://www.gazettextra.com/news/2009/feb/26/marquette-loses-game-uconn-loses-james-broken-foot/
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 13, 2017, 06:47:12 PM
Will never forget when DJ went down in the BC: Dead quiet as he limped off at the time out and I remember thinking there goes the season. Price dominated Acker. Sinking feeling although the game was competitive.
http://www.gazettextra.com/news/2009/feb/26/marquette-loses-game-uconn-loses-james-broken-foot/
We stuck with them most of that game, but Acker just couldn't stop Price. He was the difference in that game. If DJ plays that whole game, I'm confident we'd have won that, and had a legit shot at sharing the conference title with Pitt and Louisville.
I'm just glad that we can have this discussion.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 13, 2017, 06:47:12 PM
Will never forget when DJ went down in the BC: Dead quiet as he limped off at the time out and I remember thinking there goes the season. Price dominated Acker. Sinking feeling although the game was competitive.
http://www.gazettextra.com/news/2009/feb/26/marquette-loses-game-uconn-loses-james-broken-foot/
Yep was there too
So pumped n then the word spread broken foot
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on January 13, 2017, 06:26:06 PM
My whole point on the age things is yes hes 17 and what hes doing is great but at the end of the day it doesnt mean sqwat. Puts to extra points on the board n in some ways does him a disservice. Age doesnt matter production does n hes getting it dine all that needs to be said
speling puncktuashun and grammmer doesnt mean sqwat, eether.
Quote from: Goose on January 12, 2017, 12:31:30 PM
Howard also flat out knows how to put the ball in the basket.
Digger? Is that you you magnificent bastard??
Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on January 13, 2017, 04:06:08 PM
Which is why DJames' defense was so important to that team's success. He extended the opposing PG's point of attack, greatly reducing the amount of time the other team spent in the paint. With him out, our weakness down low was too easily exploited.
Exactly. Maybe the best defensive PG in college was replaced by 5'6" 140 lb Mo Acker. A liability replaced a lockdown.
Quote from: T-Bone on January 13, 2017, 07:13:55 PM
I'm just glad that we can have this discussion.
Problems we like to have.