I did not see the game against Wisconsin because of Christmas events. Always disappointing to lose to the instate rival. However, just reflecting back, Crean could not make the Big Dance with two future NBA players on the team (Novak and Diener) and how would Buzz have done without his first year having Lazar, DJ, Wesley and Jerel? I say hang in there with Wojo. He is doing a lot of good things. We are arguably in the best BB conference in the country.
This post is far too reasonable to appear on scoop less than 24 hours after a "bad" loss.
I haven't given up on Wojo. I'm not sold on him either. I expected to lose to Wisconsin. I expected this team to be better than last year as a team but possibly not get to 20 wins in the regular season. In another post I list all of the things about this team that have exceeded my expectations. Clearly, there is still work to do. But I was here for the Majerus/Dukiet years. This is still better.
I agree with both of you.
The lack of upper-class leadership on this team is disappointing. JJJ was awful. Luke was OK but he is flawed. Ditto for Duane. The most composed player out there many times was the youngest guy on the team. That's a problem.
Wojo needs that one player that plays like Lazar or Crowder, right now his players are not tough or physical. Henry last year gave them some physicality, this year
none. Reinhardt guarding Hayes, not close. The size difference was significant, even Sam was guarding him, Hayes knew he could take him. Happ same thing, Iverson
yep, all are more physical then anyone on MU.
My main concern is Wojo taking players just because he was having trouble recruiting. Rowsey, Carter and Howard, 3 tiny guards, add Duane to the mix and you
have no toughness, to small. Wait to they play X or Villy, it will be a challenge. I do not know enough about John or Eke, but they better bring a mental toughness
to the team next year. Wojo has 1 scholarship left, better find somebody. I think he will only take one as the following year he already has Hauser and Bailey which
leaves him one left for that year.
I do not see them beating any of the Top 5 teams in the conference, conference is good. Coaching is important but talented players make a coach and right now he does not have the horses. It will not change unless he finds somebody like that. Bailey and Hauser are not like that either, more finesse. John will be the key next
year. Anybody who has seen John, think he can do it? Be that player.
Dis is not da country's best basketball conference, hey?
There were actually two years where Crean had Diener & Novak and finished 19-12. The last year Diener broke his hand, so that one does not really count. The first one was Crean not being prepared for Wade leaving early, which I say is somewhat similar to Wojo not being prepared for Henry leaving early.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 11, 2016, 10:00:50 AM
Dis is not da country's best basketball conference, hey?
No but it's probably the 2nd best.
Quote from: tower912 on December 11, 2016, 09:24:05 AM
But I was here for the Majerus/Dukiet years. This is still better.
^This. Not that I would want us to settle for where the program is now--I want to get back to expected S16-S16-E8 runs--but if you lived through Rod Grosse, Roman Mueller, Anthony Candelino, Joe Nethen, et al., then you know we aren't anywhere near the valley.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 11, 2016, 10:00:50 AM
Dis is not da country's best basketball conference, hey?
Top to bottom it certainly is.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on December 11, 2016, 09:28:00 AM
I agree with both of you.
The lack of upper-class leadership on this team is disappointing. JJJ was awful. Luke was OK but he is flawed. Ditto for Duane. The most composed player out there many times was the youngest guy on the team. That's a problem.
Very true. All three guys are Buzz recruits, so round pegs in square holes to some extent. Not sure any of them are guys Wojo would have recruited...maybe Luke.
JJJ's regression he last 3-4 games is really puzzling. Cheatham has been struggling, but JJJ is back to making horrible decisions and not hustling back on defense.
No argument on the Dukiet years. Majerus's team at least made the NIT, which was really a disappointment compared to the prior 20 years, but would be an improvement over our last three years.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 11, 2016, 10:58:08 AM
Top to bottom it certainly is.
I don't know exactly what this means, but since its inception the "new" Big East has never been the NCAA's best conference. It's not this year either. Might be #2 which would be its best ever.
ACC, Big 12, Big 10, Pac 12, SEC are all better, hey?
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on December 11, 2016, 11:20:45 AM
No.
Sagarin says #3 (behind Big 12 and ACC), Massey says #4 (behind Big 12, ACC and Big 10). Don't know about Pomeroy. Maybe this translates to "certainly #1 from top to bottom" but I doubt it.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 11, 2016, 11:26:52 AM
Sagarin says #3 (behind Big 12 and ACC), Massey says #4 (behind Big 12, ACC and Big 10). Don't know about Pomeroy. Maybe this translates to "certainly #1 from top to bottom" but I doubt it.
Pomeroy has the Big East third behind the Big 12 and ACC.
Quote from: bilsu on December 11, 2016, 10:11:36 AM
There were actually two years where Crean had Diener & Novak and finished 19-12. The last year Diener broke his hand, so that one does not really count. The first one was Crean not being prepared for Wade leaving early, which I say is somewhat similar to Wojo not being prepared for Henry leaving early.
Crean was prepared, everyone knew it was coming, thus bringing in top 40 recruit Dameon Mason. Unfortunately he was badly overrated. Who was really missed that year was RJax.
We have seen peaks and valleys over the past years and without a doubt Dukiet was Death Valley. TC gave us a FF appearance but Buzz was the closest we saw for a true peak in decades. It had some longevity to it and we received more national exposure with him as coach.
This topic actually pisses me off. Spent most of Saturday pre and post game talking to my son about the peaks post Al and if I did not have a good memory on MU ball it could have been a short conversation. Sadly all of my peak stories ended in a loss of game or coach. All in all, the post Al era (Rick and Hank) we have seen more disappointment than over the top success.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 11, 2016, 11:26:52 AM
Sagarin says #3 (behind Big 12 and ACC), Massey says #4 (behind Big 12, ACC and Big 10). Don't know about Pomeroy. Maybe this translates to "certainly #1 from top to bottom" but I doubt it.
We all know a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, right?
Replace 'chain' with 'conference,' and while not entirely appropriate, it does form a basis for what is being implied by the "top to bottom" argument.
Quote from: bilsu on December 11, 2016, 11:02:13 AM
No argument on the Dukiet years. Majerus's team at least made the NIT, which was really a disappointment compared to the prior 20 years, but would be an improvement over our last three years.
Last years team wpuld have been in the NIT if they were going by the format of when Majerus coached.
MU is going to be outsized most games they need to be way more physical
Quote from: TSmith34 on December 11, 2016, 10:55:17 AM
^This. Not that I would want us to settle for where the program is now--I want to get back to expected S16-S16-E8 runs--but if you lived through Rod Grosse, Roman Mueller, Anthony Candelino, Joe Nethen, et al., then you know we aren't anywhere near the valley.
Those years were an ocean trench.
Mueller vs Candelino and Nathen is not even worth discussing. When we hit Candelino levels it was rock bottom in program history. Not going to try and defend Mueller, but at least he was not called on to contribute. I pray to God I never see the Dukiet era re-lived again.
Quote from: bilsu on December 11, 2016, 11:02:13 AM
No argument on the Dukiet years. Majerus's team at least made the NIT, which was really a disappointment compared to the prior 20 years, but would be an improvement over our last three years.
We had the feel of a D3 program in the Dukiet days. Kevin O'Neill was such a good and fortunate hire given the state of the program at the time. Yes, he had his flaws, but he started things going in an entirely different direction for MU hoops.
The last four years has felt very much like the late Deane / early Crean era. It's nowhere close to as bad as Dukiet. I'm just hoping that the good years will follow like it did in the mid 2000s.
Quote from: Goose on December 12, 2016, 01:15:40 PM
Mueller vs Candelino and Nathen is not even worth discussing. When we hit Candelino levels it was rock bottom in program history. Not going to try and defend Mueller, but at least he was not called on to contribute. I pray to God I never see the Dukiet era re-lived again.
I think this is the same Anthony Candelino
http://jacksonville.com/sports/basketball/2016-06-07/story/high-schools-notebook-anthony-candelino-resigns-bolles-basketball
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on December 12, 2016, 02:05:44 PM
The last four years has felt very much like the late Deane / early Crean era. It's nowhere close to as bad as Dukiet. I'm just hoping that the good years will follow like it did in the mid 2000s.
All the bad stems from Buzz leaving the program with nothing. The 2 seniors are average and DWilson is that as well. None of those 3 really are difference makers.
Sure on a given night they will a good game, but no consistency. JJJ is just a defensive liability, it is amazing he plays at all.
Quote from: HoopsterBC on December 12, 2016, 03:25:55 PM
JJJ is just a defensive liability.
IMO, he's just gotten into the bad habit of playing every possession for the chance at a steal and break away dunk. He certainly has all the athletic ability required to play excellent fundamental defense if he wants.
HoopsterBC
I disagree on your assessment of JJJ, Luke and Wilson. All three of those guys would be contributors on almost every 20 team in the country. In addition, he was left Burton who has played quite nicely at a program much more advanced than MU. He was not left the 60's Celtics, but he was left some talent to work around.
Quote from: Goose on December 12, 2016, 01:15:40 PM
Mueller vs Candelino and Nathen is not even worth discussing. When we hit Candelino levels it was rock bottom in program history. Not going to try and defend Mueller, but at least he was not called on to contribute. I pray to God I never see the Dukiet era re-lived again.
Talking about my time span at MU!
Quote from: Goose on December 12, 2016, 03:42:12 PM
HoopsterBC
I disagree on your assessment of JJJ, Luke and Wilson. All three of those guys would be contributors on almost every 20 team in the country. In addition, he was left Burton who has played quite nicely at a program much more advanced than MU. He was not left the 60's Celtics, but he was left some talent to work around.
OK, opinions are great, I disagree. Luke has not developed a game other than backing himself to the basket. He is good shooter, Wojo should take advantage of
that and has not done anything to create different looks for him. Wojo fault? maybe, but he is so soft defensively. Again, Wojo puts him 25 feet from the basket, again Wojo have something to do with that. Maybe a coaching issue on him.
JJJ, enigma, at times he shows great talent, at times no talent. Takes chances on D, once a game he wins. Soft again, and has one thought on his mind to drive the
right side of the hoop. He has made some jump shots, but does not let the flow the offense come to him. At times defensively, not there.
Duane, I remember how they compared Koenig and him, boy there is no comparison now. This one is challenging to me, looks like he is healthy but Wojo does not
seem to like him much. Volume shooter, that needs time to play but not getting it. A starter most of his life, I am sure hard on him.
So 3 highly rated kids out of high school, have they lived up to there rating or hype, in my mind, no. For sure not leaders.
Quote from: HoopsterBC on December 12, 2016, 03:25:55 PM
JJJ is just a defensive liability, it is amazing he plays at all.
JJJ leads the team in D-Rating. He is also second on the team in Net Pts (a statistic that combines o and d rating). I think by any objective measure he is our best defender and 2nd best player overall. He also leads the team in lowest basketball IQ. That is why I personally get frustrated with him. Such a good player who makes such questionable decisions.
Quote from: Goose on December 12, 2016, 03:42:12 PM
HoopsterBC
I disagree on your assessment of JJJ, Luke and Wilson. All three of those guys would be contributors on almost every 20 team in the country. In addition, he was left Burton who has played quite nicely at a program much more advanced than MU. He was not left the 60's Celtics, but he was left some talent to work around.
I think most top 20 teams would be happy to have Luke or JJJ as one of their starters. I think all of them would be mortified if either of them was one of their top two players. Let alone both.
Disagree on Wilson. 8th on the team in O-rating. 5th on the team in D-rating. Haven't seen much from him this season. Have almost wondered if having his legs back has thrown off his game.
Quote from: HoopsterBC on December 12, 2016, 03:55:41 PM
OK, opinions are great, I disagree. Luke has not developed a game other than backing himself to the basket. He is good shooter, Wojo should take advantage of
that and has not done anything to create different looks for him. Wojo fault? maybe, but he is so soft defensively. Again, Wojo puts him 25 feet from the basket, again Wojo have something to do with that. Maybe a coaching issue on him.
JJJ, enigma, at times he shows great talent, at times no talent. Takes chances on D, once a game he wins. Soft again, and has one thought on his mind to drive the
right side of the hoop. He has made some jump shots, but does not let the flow the offense come to him. At times defensively, not there.
Duane, I remember how they compared Koenig and him, boy there is no comparison now. This one is challenging to me, looks like he is healthy but Wojo does not
seem to like him much. Volume shooter, that needs time to play but not getting it. A starter most of his life, I am sure hard on him.
So 3 highly rated kids out of high school, have they lived up to there rating or hype, in my mind, no. For sure not leaders.
Don't like any of those top 100 guys Buzz left for Wojo in his 3rd year? You might want to remember what Crean left behind for Buzz in his 3rd year - zilch, zip, nada, nothing. And what did Buzz do in year 3 with no holdovers from the TC era? Oh yeah - went to the Sweet 16. This weeping and gnashing of teeth for poor ol' Wojo has got to cease.
Quote from: TSmith34 on December 12, 2016, 03:33:39 PM
IMO, he's just gotten into the bad habit of playing every possession for the chance at a steal and break away dunk. He certainly has all the athletic ability required to play excellent fundamental defense if he wants.
Yep, it's above the Neck.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 12, 2016, 04:28:41 PM
JJJ leads the team in D-Rating. He is also second on the team in Net Pts (a statistic that combines o and d rating). I think by any objective measure he is our best defender and 2nd best player overall. He also leads the team in lowest basketball IQ. That is why I personally get frustrated with him. Such a good player who makes such questionable decisions.
Here's the thing with JJ...my guess is he has a good defensive rating because he is elite at stealing the basketball. His 5.2 steal percentage is 2nd in the league and 12th in the nation. He does great at turning errant passes into points. However he still isn't a great man defender. He sometimes gambles too much and can get stuck in traffic. When he's good, he's great, but when he's bad, he's abysmal. But when it comes to trying to rate a defender, things like blocks and steals can skew statistics for guys that are average defenders in the other aspects of the game.
EDIT: For instance, JJ this year is notably better at block percentage, steal percentage, and defensive rebounding percentage than Jimmy Butler ever was. I'd be shocked if he didn't have a higher defensive rating than Jimmy. But if you needed to lock someone down, if you needed one of those two playing defense for you, which would you pick? I'd take Jimmy every single time and it's not even a question.
Brew, his help defense is poor as well. Against UW, he was either far too slow or failed to rotate over numerous times.
The big reason MU gives up some many uncontested lay-ups and dunks is that our help defense is poor overall. Yes, guys are getting beat, but then MU compounds it by not rotating.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 12, 2016, 05:01:03 PM
Here's the thing with JJ...my guess is he has a good defensive rating because he is elite at stealing the basketball. His 5.2 steal percentage is 2nd in the league and 12th in the nation. He does great at turning errant passes into points. However he still isn't a great man defender. He sometimes gambles too much and can get stuck in traffic. When he's good, he's great, but when he's bad, he's abysmal. But when it comes to trying to rate a defender, things like blocks and steals can skew statistics for guys that are average defenders in the other aspects of the game.
EDIT: For instance, JJ this year is notably better at block percentage, steal percentage, and defensive rebounding percentage than Jimmy Butler ever was. I'd be shocked if he didn't have a higher defensive rating than Jimmy. But if you needed to lock someone down, if you needed one of those two playing defense for you, which would you pick? I'd take Jimmy every single time and it's not even a question.
I agree to a point. But you can't just throw out the fact that JJJ is very good at stealing, blocking, rebounding, etc. All those things are part of being a good defender.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 12, 2016, 05:22:52 PM
I agree to a point. But you can't just throw out the fact that JJJ is very good at stealing, blocking, rebounding, etc. All those things are part of being a good defender.
If this makes sense, I think they do more to help the defense than actually contribute to being a good defender.
My main contention is that JJ isn't our best defender, mainly because of that aforementioned basketball IQ. Traci and Katin are both better defenders. Their contributions may not show up on the stat sheet, but I have far more faith in their ability to lock a guy down than I do of JJ.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 12, 2016, 04:52:50 PM
Don't like any of those top 100 guys Buzz left for Wojo in his 3rd year? You might want to remember what Crean left behind for Buzz in his 3rd year - zilch, zip, nada, nothing. And what did Buzz do in year 3 with no holdovers from the TC era? Oh yeah - went to the Sweet 16. This weeping and gnashing of teeth for poor ol' Wojo has got to cease.
Yup. Excuses need to end. Year 3 people.
Quote from: TSmith34 on December 11, 2016, 10:55:17 AM
^This. Not that I would want us to settle for where the program is now--I want to get back to expected S16-S16-E8 runs--but if you lived through Rod Grosse, Roman Mueller, Anthony Candelino, Joe Nethen, et al., then you know we aren't anywhere near the valley.
My era as well... unfortunately. I remember Candelino and Nethen getting torched even at the rec center. Any 5 guys who usually played on court 3 back then could beat any 5 players from that MU team (with the exception of Tony Smith).
TAMU
IMO all three of them are in the rotation on almost any team in the country. Agree they would not be top one or two guys, but 20 minute or more guys. I think Wilson would benefit a great deal by a change of environment. At the moment a complete of confidence is hurting him.
Quote from: WarriorFan on December 12, 2016, 07:00:52 PM
My era as well... unfortunately. I remember Candelino and Nethen getting torched even at the rec center. Any 5 guys who usually played on court 3 back then could beat any 5 players from that MU team (with the exception of Tony Smith).
So you're saying I could have dunked on them too.
Quote from: Goose on December 12, 2016, 07:29:07 PM
TAMU
IMO all three of them are in the rotation on almost any team in the country. Agree they would not be top one or two guys, but 20 minute or more guys. I think Wilson would benefit a great deal by a change of environment. At the moment a complete of confidence is hurting him.
I don't disagree with you. They could be in the rotation anywhere. Unfortunately they are our two of our best players and one sub. I'm not sure if its confidence hurting Duane. His legs are 100% for the first time in years. That can mess with your shot if you've been playing hurt and compensating for it for awhile.
Quote from: WarriorFan on December 12, 2016, 07:00:52 PM
My era as well... unfortunately. I remember Candelino and Nethen getting torched even at the rec center. Any 5 guys who usually played on court 3 back then could beat any 5 players from that MU team (with the exception of Tony Smith).
I was there from 1987-91 as well. The 1991 class has the worst winning percentage of any MU class since World War II. However, a five of Tony Smith, Trevor Powell, Mark Anglavar, Tyrone Baldwin, and any one of Mike Flory/Pat Foley/Pop Sims would beat any challenging 5 from the Rec Center.
I know you were just joking, but as bad the Warriors were in that era, they still had a handful of decent players - they just had no bench whatsoever and were plagued with injuries, suspensions, academic casualties, etc.. Thank God Kevin O'Neill arrived when he did.
Quote from: Norm on December 13, 2016, 08:41:39 AM
I was there from 1987-91 as well. The 1991 class has the worst winning percentage of any MU class since World War II. However, a five of Tony Smith, Trevor Powell, Mark Anglavar, Tyrone Baldwin, and any one of Mike Flory/Pat Foley/Pop Sims would beat any challenging 5 from the Rec Center.
I know you were just joking, but as bad the Warriors were in that era, they still had a handful of decent players - they just had no bench whatsoever and were plagued with injuries, suspensions, academic casualties, etc.. Thank God Kevin O'Neill arrived when he did.
I think I still have my
Thank you Tony & Ty sign in my attic crawlspace from their Senior day.
I still have my Dukiet Farewell Tour t-shirt somewhere.