Wisconsin was picked to win the B1G this year.
Marquette was picked 7th in the BEAST.
I know it isn't fun to lose to Wisconsin... especially the way Marquette did, but people need to temper their expectations.
We just aren't there yet (again).
No argument. I expected us to lose today.
No internet in the BC, so I haven't really seen. Is anyone actually surprised? Game was over at halftime.
Quote from: tower912 on December 10, 2016, 03:55:33 PM
No argument. I expected us to lose today.
I also expected us to lose. I did not, however, expect us to get outscored 32-10 on our home court in the first 10 minutes of the second half. Course I didn't expect Fresno St to outscore us by 15 in the back half of the previous game at the BC either. I'm a little concerned.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 10, 2016, 03:54:35 PM
Wisconsin was picked to win the B1G this year.
Marquette was picked 7th in the BEAST.
I know it isn't fun to lose to Wisconsin... especially the way Marquette did, but people need to temper their expectations.
We just aren't there yet (again).
And 7th it looks like it will be. I picked UW to win this one, but if MU could play defense we had a chance. So far our best win is Georgia.
So, if MU is the barometer, the Big 10 is better than the SEC. Stunner.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 10, 2016, 04:21:28 PM
I also expected us to lose. I did not, however, expect us to get outscored 32-10 on our home court in the first 10 minutes of the second half. Course I didn't expect Fresno St to outscore us by 15 in the back half of the previous game at the BC either. I'm a little concerned.
I agree
I just finished watching the game, I was uuugely disappointed. Getting run out of the gym is one thing, but this wasn't the case this afternoon. I have to put this one mostly on Wojo. To start how about that 16-0 or 16-2 run in the second half by Wisconsin, how about a time out, call a play call another time out do something those guys were dying out there, wtf? The blocking foul by Marcus when he took an elbow to the chops, perfect time to take a technical maybe light a fire under the troops. I thought you could tell he wanted to go off but didn't, why? All this is on top of the ever present turnovers and from what I would call absolutely crap defense. As far as the defense goes either the staff is not teaching them or the team is not executing either of which is a significant problem in my opinion. I will admit I am a bit wound up right now but I don't foresee an MU team in the near future that can over come the turn overs and defensive lapses that this one has consistently. I think they aren't that far away, I hope they can get there.
He took the timeouts. Players just didn't perform Hauser, Hani, JJJ, and Luke is very slow on D
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 10, 2016, 04:10:54 PM
No internet in the BC, so I haven't really seen. Is anyone actually surprised? Game was over at halftime.
Lol
Quote from: Newsdrms on December 10, 2016, 05:27:29 PM
He took the timeouts. Players just didn't perform Hauser, Hani, JJJ, and Luke is very slow on D
I was watching on DVR while cooking dinner, I didn't notice he was taking time outs. I rescind 25% of my criticism of Wojo.
Quote from: Newsdrms on December 10, 2016, 05:27:29 PM
He took the timeouts. Players just didn't perform Hauser, Hani, JJJ, and Luke is very slow on D
This as serious as the racist guy and his 11 year old son
Quote from: manny31 on December 10, 2016, 05:51:07 PM
I was watching on DVR while cooking dinner, I didn't notice he was taking time outs. I rescind 25% of my criticism of Wojo.
You really think he should have taken a technical? Cmon.
Quote from: manny31 on December 10, 2016, 05:20:29 PM
I just finished watching the game, I was uuugely disappointed. Getting run out of the gym is one thing, but this wasn't the case this afternoon. I have to put this one mostly on Wojo. To start how about that 16-0 or 16-2 run in the second half by Wisconsin, how about a time out, call a play call another time out do something those guys were dying out there, wtf? The blocking foul by Marcus when he took an elbow to the chops, perfect time to take a technical maybe light a fire under the troops. I thought you could tell he wanted to go off but didn't, why? All this is on top of the ever present turnovers and from what I would call absolutely crap defense. As far as the defense goes either the staff is not teaching them or the team is not executing either of which is a significant problem in my opinion. I will admit I am a bit wound up right now but I don't foresee an MU team in the near future that can over come the turn overs and defensive lapses that this one has consistently. I think they aren't that far away, I hope they can get there.
I believe he took 2 timeouts on their run.
And you really want to give up 2 extra free throws down, what, 12 with about 4 minutes to go? That's about the last thing in the world needed there.
Quote from: manny31 on December 10, 2016, 05:20:29 PM
I just finished watching the game, I was uuugely disappointed. Getting run out of the gym is one thing, but this wasn't the case this afternoon. I have to put this one mostly on Wojo. To start how about that 16-0 or 16-2 run in the second half by Wisconsin, how about a time out, call a play call another time out do something those guys were dying out there, wtf?
Wilson and Cheatham were on the floor during their run. They were no more effective than you and I would have been.
A loss is a loss and this is a game we were expected to lose so big surprise. We are still early in the season. The results could have been much worse. We are not out of the running, we have much work to do but we have a chance. Last year we had no chance. Let the season play out a bit more before going off.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on December 10, 2016, 06:05:05 PM
You really think he should have taken a technical? Cmon.
Per my lack of attention, the time outs didn't work or the team wasn't executing what he was prescribing during the time outs. So yes, I don't think getting the technical is ridiculous course of action . It wasn't like MU was down a point or five, maybe it fires up the team. I don't see the downside in that situation, at that moment MU was getting its crap handed to them. Not as an argument to support my assertion that Wojo should have taken a technical but out of curiosity how many technicals has Wojo gotten as head coach? How does it compare to coaches that have perennial top 25 programs?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 10, 2016, 04:21:28 PM
I also expected us to lose. I did not, however, expect us to get outscored 32-10 on our home court in the first 10 minutes of the second half. Course I didn't expect Fresno St to outscore us by 15 in the back half of the previous game at the BC either. I'm a little concerned.
Why does this matter? All that matters is the final score. If you told me we were going to lose by single digits against Wisconsin I would have been pleasantly surprised. Not happy about it of course. But preseason I expected a blow out.
Quote from: Class71 on December 10, 2016, 06:30:39 PM
A loss is a loss and this is a game we were expected to lose so big surprise. We are still early in the season. The results could have been much worse. We are not out of the running, we have much work to do but we have a chance. Last year we had no chance. Let the season play out a bit more before going off.
With the way Wojo teaches "defense," MU has no chance against a good team unless they hit a huge number of 3's.
Talent is bad, coaching is worse...
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 10, 2016, 07:01:46 PM
Why does this matter? All that matters is the final score. If you told me we were going to lose by single digits against Wisconsin I would have been pleasantly surprised. Not happy about it of course. But preseason I expected a blow out.
Kinda was a blowout in the second half.
Quote from: 79Warrior on December 10, 2016, 08:29:20 PM
Kinda was a blowout in the second half.
And we were the better team in the first half. Put the two halves together and you have a single digit loss.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on December 10, 2016, 06:05:05 PM
You really think he should have taken a technical? Cmon.
I'm not a huge believer in the T as motivation (especially from an infamous de-motivator), but I have to honestly say it crossed my mind on this occasion. The call was so outrageous, and MU had been whipped into submission so badly, that I thought at the time, "Do it."
Almost surely wouldn't have a made a difference, but as Agent Orange told Black America: "What do you have to lose?"
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 10, 2016, 07:01:46 PM
Why does this matter? All that matters is the final score. If you told me we were going to lose by single digits against Wisconsin I would have been pleasantly surprised. Not happy about it of course. But preseason I expected a blow out.
A teams ability to not let a situation spiral out of control is very important. It's been a long time since MU had the right set of guys that could withstand the other team's flurry of punches and then come back with a run of their own.
Quote from: g0lden3agle on December 10, 2016, 11:35:34 PM
A teams ability to not let a situation spiral out of control is very important. It's been a long time since MU had the right set of guys that could withstand the other team's flurry of punches and then come back with a run of their own.
Equally important is a team's ability to build a favorable situation to lose control of in the first place. In the end, the final score is all that matters. Losing sucks. Losing to Bucky sucks the most. Losing by single digits to Bucky was unfortunately a realistic prediction going into this game.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 10, 2016, 11:40:15 PM
Equally important is a team's ability to build a favorable situation to lose control of in the first place. In the end, the final score is all that matters. Losing sucks. Losing to Bucky sucks the most. Losing by single digits to Bucky was unfortunately a realistic prediction going into this game.
Looking only at your pregame expectation and final score masks a lot of important details about how a game went down. We're noticing a trend in Marquette's ability (or lack thereof) to withstand the opponents 2nd half runs that would not be recognizable if only looking at the final score.
Im personally a fan of the concept of breaking a game up into the chunks of time between timeouts. The ability to rattle off consecutive winning chunks of time, or prevent the opponent from doing so, is a factor in a team's long term success.
Quote from: g0lden3agle on December 10, 2016, 11:55:09 PM
Looking only at your pregame expectation and final score masks a lot of important details about how a game went down. We're noticing a trend in Marquette's ability (or lack thereof) to withstand the opponents 2nd half runs that would not be recognizable if only looking at the final score.
Im personally a fan of the concept of breaking a game up into the chunks of time between timeouts. The ability to rattle off consecutive winning chunks of time, or prevent the opponent from doing so, is a factor in a team's long term success.
Since you were curious.
First Half:
U16: UW 12, MU 9
U12: UW 3, MU 7
U8: UW 12, MU 9
U4: UW 6, MU 9
Half: UW 2, MU 5
2nd Half:
U16: UW 8, MU 4
U12: UW 13, MU 3
U8: UW 11, MU 3
U4: UW 9, MU 12
Final: UW 17, MU 22
UW won 5 timeouts, MU won 5 timeouts. UW won their's by 9 more. If you want to dissect how we lost, that's great. No issue with that. I like breaking up the game too.
That wasn't my point.
My point is that a 9 point loss is a 9 point loss, no matter how you get there. It is not worse to build a lead than lose it, than it is to build a deficit and then fail to come all the way back. It's not better if its neck and neck all game with one side pulling away at the end. A 9 point loss is a 9 point loss. Breaking it down can help diagnose what went wrong, but there isn't a better way to lose.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 10, 2016, 07:01:46 PM
Why does this matter? All that matters is the final score. If you told me we were going to lose by single digits against Wisconsin I would have been pleasantly surprised. Not happy about it of course. But preseason I expected a blow out.
You keep (ad nauseam) repeating your mantra of this being "a single digit loss" as if this was a close game. It wasn't. We won garbage time because they were disinterested on defense and stalling (and missing some free throws) on offense. Even with that we needed to throw in a meaningless 3 in the final seconds to get to what I guess you consider the all important "single digit" margin. Sorry, this was a blowout. if you just see the final on a scroll you might not think so, but if you watched the game you know so.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 10, 2016, 08:59:32 PM
And we were the better team in the first half. Put the two halves together and you have a single digit loss.
Considering Happ was on the bench most of the first half I would not take much comfort in the halftime score. We sucked in the second half and got hammered at home.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 11, 2016, 12:20:34 AM
Since you were curious.
First Half:
U16: UW 12, MU 9
U12: UW 3, MU 7
U8: UW 12, MU 9
U4: UW 6, MU 9
Half: UW 2, MU 5
2nd Half:
U16: UW 8, MU 4
U12: UW 13, MU 3
U8: UW 11, MU 3
U4: UW 9, MU 12
Final: UW 17, MU 22
UW won 5 timeouts, MU won 5 timeouts. UW won their's by 9 more. If you want to dissect how we lost, that's great. No issue with that. I like breaking up the game too.
That wasn't my point.
My point is that a 9 point loss is a 9 point loss, no matter how you get there. It is not worse to build a lead than lose it, than it is to build a deficit and then fail to come all the way back. It's not better if its neck and neck all game with one side pulling away at the end. A 9 point loss is a 9 point loss. Breaking it down can help diagnose what went wrong, but there isn't a better way to lose.
Thank you for breaking down the segments and the results like that. I was planning on doing so when I woke up this morning :).
I agree with Lenny in regards to the merit in calling this a single digit loss. What i see is a Wisconsin team that came out and knocked out MU by dominating three straight segments of the 2nd half and being able to take the foot off the gas.
MUs tendency to allow massive runs like this is very troubling.
Major ass kickin' while we were takin' to da woodshed. Da younguns just aren't connoisseurs of fine Warrior basketball, ai na?
4ever
We were out of it halftime. Only up 5 with Happ on the pines for 18 minutes was not good enough. Long, long, long way to go for the program at this point.
Quote from: mayfairskatingrink on December 10, 2016, 08:08:55 PM
With the way Wojo teaches "defense," MU has no chance against a good team unless they hit a huge number of 3's.
Talent is bad, coaching is worse...
Sky is falling, sky is falling. Let's see in two months if you feel the same way. To expect us to beat the rodents this early in the season is unrealistic. If we finish in the top 30-40 this will be a successful season. We need to be a bit realistic.
Quote from: Class71 on December 11, 2016, 09:44:41 AM
Sky is falling, sky is falling. Let's see in two months if you feel the same way. To expect us to beat the rodents this early in the season is unrealistic. If we finish in the top 30-40 this will be a successful season. We need to be a bit realistic.
Couldn't agree more. Everyone freaks out. We have 3 losses. So many people here thought we would have 4 or 5 by now. We have lost to quality opponents. And anyone who thinks Madison ISNT a top 10 team is drunk. They have lost two games. To UNC and Creighton.
We have lost 3 games... 3.
To good teams.
Actually we should shut the program down and move to D3.
Quote from: 79Warrior on December 11, 2016, 12:55:43 AM
Considering Happ was on the bench most of the first half I would not take much comfort in the halftime score. We sucked in the second half and got hammered at home.
We also down 5 or 7 when Reinhardt came off the bench and hit four threes, which is not likely to happen again. The game was actually lossed in the frist half when we did not take greater advantage of Happ being on the bench.
We did take advantage of Happ's pine time. But, dat's all da juice dis team's got. Needed ta be up big league at da break. Woefully short on talent and da upperclassmen have not improved or taken da next step, ai na?
Quote from: fjm on December 11, 2016, 09:55:14 AM
Couldn't agree more. Everyone freaks out. We have 3 losses. So many people here thought we would have 4 or 5 by now. We have lost to quality opponents. And anyone who thinks Madison ISNT a top 10 team is drunk. They have lost two games. To UNC and Creighton.
We have lost 3 games... 3.
To good teams.
Actually we should shut the program down and move to D3.
Sorry if reality is freaking out. This team cannot defend and if you cannot defend then it will be a long season. We have one quality win, Georgia. UCLA lit up Michigan yesterday and Michigan made us look like a division 2 team. The loss to UW does not bother me, they are the better team. The lack of improvement defensively by Marquette troubles me.
Quote from: 79Warrior on December 11, 2016, 10:25:30 AM
Sorry if reality is freaking out. This team cannot defend and if you cannot defend then it will be a long season. We have one quality win, Georgia. UCLA lit up Michigan yesterday and Michigan made us look like a division 2 team. The loss to UW does not bother me, they are the better team. The lack of improvement defensively by Marquette troubles me.
While agree on the defense issue, I can't agree on the UCLA issue. UCLA is no2 in the country.
Everyone is freaking out, yet no one is considering rankings or other teams capabilities.
Yes Georgia was a good win and so far our best. Hope to see many more this season.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 11, 2016, 12:51:57 AM
You keep (ad nauseam) repeating your mantra of this being "a single digit loss" as if this was a close game. It wasn't. We won garbage time because they were disinterested on defense and stalling (and missing some free throws) on offense. Even with that we needed to throw in a meaningless 3 in the final seconds to get to what I guess you consider the all important "single digit" margin. Sorry, this was a blowout. if you just see the final on a scroll you might not think so, but if you watched the game you know so.
See I didn't see the same thing you did. We were within 8 with over 3 minutes to go. That's plenty of time to make up that deficit. That technical foul gets called on Wisconsin and that's anywhere from a 2 to 6 point swing. I saw us beat Wisconsin in the first half. Get real down early in the the second. Than I saw us battle back to make it a game. You bring up the meaningless three. I can just as easily say that Marquette could have let the game go when we were down 8 with 36 seconds left. Wisconsin hit some meaningless free throws to extend their lead. This was a single digit loss. It sucks. But giving up a first half lead isn't any worse than Wisconsin creaming us in the first half and us battling back to a single digit loss. Or Wisconsin just being slightly better than us all game and slowly pulling away to a 9 point win.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 11, 2016, 03:16:13 PM
See I didn't see the same thing you did. We were within 8 with over 3 minutes to go. That's plenty of time to make up that deficit. That technical foul gets called on Wisconsin and that's anywhere from a 2 to 6 point swing. I saw us beat Wisconsin in the first half. Get real down early in the the second. Than I saw us battle back to make it a game. You bring up the meaningless three. I can just as easily say that Marquette could have let the game go when we were down 8 with 36 seconds left. Wisconsin hit some meaningless free throws to extend their lead. This was a single digit loss. It sucks. But giving up a first half lead isn't any worse than Wisconsin creaming us in the first half and us battling back to a single digit loss. Or Wisconsin just being slightly better than us all game and slowly pulling away to a 9 point win.
I'm kind of with Lenny inasmuch as I don't think we can take much away from the final score or last 8 or so minutes of the game. The late lineup was almost exclusively Howard, Rowsey, Reinhardt, Cheatham and Hauser. You cannot win a significant number of meaningful games with that lineup. Sure you'll get up and run and can score in bunches, but that lineup will make a game look closer than it is. You play that lineup (or, I would argue, even one where you bring in Fischer for Hauser in that lineup) for more than 5 or so minutes a game, and any moderately balanced team will take you apart.
I'm not claiming the sky is falling, either. But I don't think there were any meaningful takeaways over the final 1/4 yesterday.