MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: StillAWarrior on May 23, 2016, 06:53:47 AM
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To suspend, or not to suspend. That is the question.
I vote yes. What say you?
Edited to add link to video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyKYiC7lHvY).
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No. I don't think it was intentional. I would not rescind the flagrant foul.
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Definitely intentional. Second instance of it. Any athlete who's played basketball at a high level, knows where your leg is going on that exaggerated of a movement.
That's why it's pretty darn rare for a guy to get kicked in the nuts, let alone twice by the same guy in a series.
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Suspend him for the first half.
Any more endangering nuts and 2 games.
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The kick was about as inadvertent as Green putting on his uniform to play the game.
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Suspend him for a game, that looked as intentional as the things Suh does on the FB field.
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I am a big DG fan. Suspend him.
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as annoying as he can be, i don't think it was intentional. in other news, steve adams has been invited to sing soprano for the florentine opera this weekend
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Normally no, but you can't suspend Jones and not Green.
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Normally no, but you can't suspend Jones and not Green.
Yeah I think you can. Greens was on a basketball move. Jones wasn't.
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I'm quite certain it was intentional. I, too, like the way Green plays, but I say he's gotta sit a game. Can't have ballers goin' after each others balls.
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Intentional, and I think they have to suspend him on the heels of the Cleveland suspension. Thought it wouldn't completely shock me if they used the "basketball play" argument and didn't suspend. Without the Jones suspension, he gets off.
I think there'd be a lot more backlash to a non-suspension than to a suspension.
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I'm quite certain it was intentional. I, too, like the way Green plays, but I say he's gotta sit a game. Can't have ballers goin' after each others balls.
I don't think it was as intentional as "I'm gonna get a nut shot on this dude", but was intentional as "Im gonna kick my legs out and get a shot in so I can make sure people aren't getting close in on me". Same as jump shooters kicking their legs forward to draw contact.
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I don't think it was as intentional as "I'm gonna get a nut shot on this dude", but was intentional as "Im gonna kick my legs out and get a shot in so I can make sure people aren't getting close in on me". Same as jump shooters kicking their legs forward to draw contact.
Or Bruce Bowen closeouts.
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I don't think it was as intentional as "I'm gonna get a nut shot on this dude", but was intentional as "Im gonna kick my legs out and get a shot in so I can make sure people aren't getting close in on me". Same as jump shooters kicking their legs forward to draw contact.
Agreed. How the league views it will determine the punishment.
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I don't think it was as intentional as "I'm gonna get a nut shot on this dude", but was intentional as "Im gonna kick my legs out and get a shot in so I can make sure people aren't getting close in on me". Same as jump shooters kicking their legs forward to draw contact.
That's what I thought when I saw it live. Jump shooters get the foul call a lot when they throw there legs forward, so I thought is was an attempt by Green to make contact hoping he would get a call.
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The whistle had already blown and the ball was long gone. That so called "follow through" was not a natural shooting motion or any basketball move related motion, it was just a cheap shot after the whistle.
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Video of Draymond kicking his legs. Does it all the time.
https://twitter.com/TEN000HOURS/status/734825505971544064
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Video of Draymond kicking his legs. Does it all the time.
https://twitter.com/TEN000HOURS/status/734825505971544064
That is interesting. I have mixed emotions on whether that changes my mind. On the one hand, he probably did not intentionally kick Adams in the balls -- although I was never really convinced of that anyway. That mitigates things a bit for me. On the other hand, he recklessly kicks his legs out all the time. If he is going to keep doing that, he may have to pay a steep price when it connects.
Speaking as a Cleveland fan, perhaps LeBron should start balling up his hands into fists and swinging them wildly as part of his embarrassingly frequent flopping. If he should happen to nail someone in the face...hey, he does that all the time...it wasn't intentional.
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The whistle had already blown and the ball was long gone. That so called "follow through" was not a natural shooting motion or any basketball move related motion, it was just a cheap shot after the whistle.
I agree it is not natural - just like when jump shooters do it. Reggie Miller was probably the best (worst) at it.
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Suspend. It was intentional based on the way he behaved after the fact.
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the best offense is a good defense-HEY'nahey?
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For those saying "don't suspend him" - if you had the talent and size to play against the guy, would you do it without a cup?
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For those saying "don't suspend him" - if you had the talent and size to play against the guy, would you do it without a cup?
My opinion is that NBA players flail like that all the time. LeBron flails his arms constantly. Nobody ever gets suspended for flailing. We're going to suspend because he happened to kick someone? Meh.
If you can determine intent, then that's obviously different.
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My opinion is that NBA players flail like that all the time. LeBron flails his arms constantly. Nobody ever gets suspended for flailing. We're going to suspend because he happened to kick someone? Meh.
If you can determine intent, then that's obviously different.
Yeah, the NBA would never suspend a guy for a kick that connects when flailing after a foul (http://thebiglead.com/2016/05/23/dwyane-wade-was-suspended-for-a-similar-kick-to-draymond-greens-in-2012/).
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I like what Van Gundy said last night:
If Steven Adams "inadvertently" kicked Steph Curry EXACTLY like that, would he have gotten suspended?
If you believe the answer is yes, then Green absolutely has to be suspended. If you believe the answer is no, then Green shouldn't be suspended.
Van Gundy thinks Adams would have been suspended had he booted Steph in the nuts - and maybe for multiple games - because of Curry's star-status, and he thinks that's blatantly unfair.
(And when talking about flagrant fouls and the like, Van Gundy almost always errs on the side of letting guys get away with murder. One need only remember his Knicks tenure to know that.)
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My reaction? "Meh. When you call your African-American opponents 'monkeys,' you might have something coming your way."
And don't give me all this BS about a "different culture" and an "honest mistake/poor choice of words." I talked to someone who lived in Australia for 3 years and travelled to New Zealand and he said people in both countries are incredibly racist.
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My reaction? "Meh. When you call your African-American opponents 'monkeys,' you might have something coming your way."
Silly.
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Silly.
So is someone a New Zealander calling African Americans "monkeys."
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So is someone a New Zealander calling African Americans "monkeys."
Yeah I thought this probably should have had more attention drawn to it. Adams was quick to apologize and he gives some great quotes/seems like a good guy so the media was quick to chalk it up to the foreign guy not meaning anything by it (and maybe rightfully so).
And honestly, I'm shocked so many people think it was suspension worthy. I didn't even think it was a flagrant foul.
On the flip side of the " if Adams kicked Curry would he have gotten suspended" question....If Curry/Thompson/Westbrook/Durant did the same thing and hit Bogut/Barnes/Adams/Ibaka would anyone really care or be calling for suspension? I doubt it, because nobody hates those guys and they have squeaky clean reputations.
Most people hate Draymond, and I think that plays into the calls for suspension.
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Yeah I thought this probably should have had more attention drawn to it. Adams was quick to apologize and he gives some great quotes/seems like a good guy so the media was quick to chalk it up to the foreign guy not meaning anything by it (and maybe rightfully so).
And honestly, I'm shocked so many people think it was suspension worthy. I didn't even think it was a flagrant foul.
On the flip side of the " if Adams kicked Curry would he have gotten suspended" question....If Curry/Thompson/Westbrook/Durant did the same thing and hit Bogut/Barnes/Adams/Ibaka would anyone really care or be calling for suspension? I doubt it, because nobody hates those guys and they have squeaky clean reputations.
Most people hate Draymond, and I think that plays into the calls for suspension.
I don't hate Green. I like watching him play and I have been amazed at the career he has put together. And yet I think he should have been suspended. I don't think Van Gundy has anything against Green, either, and yet he thinks Green should have been suspended.
Would the media have swept "monkeys" under the rug so quickly if Curry, Green, any other black NBA players -- or Sharpton or the NAACP or any other prominent black voice -- made a big deal about it? Nope. The media would have run with it, as the media always does. It would have been 24 hours of "monkeys" talk -- might have even replaced NC potties in the news cycle for awhile!
But folks quickly accepted Adams' explanation and/or simply chose not to be fauxraged. They are to be applauded for it, IMHO.
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Yeah I thought this probably should have had more attention drawn to it. Adams was quick to apologize and he gives some great quotes/seems like a good guy so the media was quick to chalk it up to the foreign guy not meaning anything by it (and maybe rightfully so).
And honestly, I'm shocked so many people think it was suspension worthy. I didn't even think it was a flagrant foul.
On the flip side of the " if Adams kicked Curry would he have gotten suspended" question....If Curry/Thompson/Westbrook/Durant did the same thing and hit Bogut/Barnes/Adams/Ibaka would anyone really care or be calling for suspension? I doubt it, because nobody hates those guys and they have squeaky clean reputations.
Most people hate Draymond, and I think that plays into the calls for suspension.
I don't hate Green. I like watching him play and I have been amazed at the career he has put together. And yet I think he should have been suspended. I don't think Van Gundy has anything against Green, either, and yet he thinks Green should have been suspended.
Would the media have swept "monkeys" under the rug so quickly if Curry, Green, any other black NBA players -- or Sharpton or the NAACP or any other prominent black voice -- made a big deal about it? Nope. The media would have run with it, as the media always does. It would have been 24 hours of "monkeys" talk -- might have even replaced NC potties in the news cycle for awhile!
But folks quickly accepted Adams' explanation and/or simply chose not to be fauxraged. They are to be applauded for it, IMHO.
I don't know which is worse, someone who knows that calling a couple of African Americans "monkeys" is horribly wrong but does it knowing it'll rile people up and hopefully distract those two opponents from the task at hand, or someone whose instincts are just to call them "monkeys" because they grew up in an incredibly racist society and then is very apologetic once they are told that that stuff doesn't fly where they now live.
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Yeah, the NBA would never suspend a guy for a kick that connects when flailing after a foul (http://thebiglead.com/2016/05/23/dwyane-wade-was-suspended-for-a-similar-kick-to-draymond-greens-in-2012/).
Wow. Major cheap shot by Dwyane. Surprising and disappointing.
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Wow. Major cheap shot by Dwyane. Surprising and disappointing.
You're just saying that because you hate Dwyane.
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Dwayne only takes the easy cheap shots.
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I don't know which is worse, someone who knows that calling a couple of African Americans "monkeys" is horribly wrong but does it knowing it'll rile people up and hopefully distract those two opponents from the task at hand, or someone whose instincts are just to call them "monkeys" because they grew up in an incredibly racist society and then is very apologetic once they are told that that stuff doesn't fly where they now live.
Again, since when are black societal leaders and black athletes so quick and willing to forgive and forget ... unless they really do realize it was not a big deal?
If this was a "thing," wouldn't Adams have been totally killed about it -- not by the media but by prominent black voices? (And THEN by the media, echoing the black voices.)
I watched PTI the next day, and Mike Wilbon -- who is not at all afraid of discussing racial issues and taking on people he deems as racists -- shrugged his shoulders and gave Adams a pass. So there's the intersection of a notable black figure AND a notable member of the media saying it's no big deal.
Back on the political board, I often was accused of being far left, liberal, etc., especially on social issues. So you'd think I would be all over Adams for "monkeys." In cases like these, however, I tend to at least wait to see what prominent black people have to say and how they react.
wadesworld, I am intrigued about your outrage, given that Curry, Wilbon, Barkley and Sharpton have shrugged their shoulders about this.
And if Adams really "deserved" to get kicked in the nuts, what fate does a guy like Trump deserve? Or Riley Cooper?
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New Zealand is a "terribly racist society?"
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So even you support the Adams deserved the kick, it still shows it was intentional and Green has to deal with the consequences. If you took the law into your own hands and attacked someone as retribution for attacking your family, you will be forgiven in public court but that doesn't protect you from being sent to jail.
It was real interesting how much JVG went off on the NBA for both this, the fouls and flagrant fouls. Usually the TNT announcers keep with the Company line.
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It was real interesting how much JVG went off on the NBA for both this, the fouls and flagrant fouls. Usually the TNT announcers keep with the Company line.
Van Gundy has NEVER been one to toe the line. He says what is on his mind. I'm guessing maybe you haven't watched to much NBA coverage.
I'd say he is a lot closer to a Johnny Miller-type color man than to Jon Gruden.
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New Zealand is a "terribly racist society?"
Yes.
Again, since when are black societal leaders and black athletes so quick and willing to forgive and forget ... unless they really do realize it was not a big deal?
If this was a "thing," wouldn't Adams have been totally killed about it -- not by the media but by prominent black voices? (And THEN by the media, echoing the black voices.)
I watched PTI the next day, and Mike Wilbon -- who is not at all afraid of discussing racial issues and taking on people he deems as racists -- shrugged his shoulders and gave Adams a pass. So there's the intersection of a notable black figure AND a notable member of the media saying it's no big deal.
Back on the political board, I often was accused of being far left, liberal, etc., especially on social issues. So you'd think I would be all over Adams for "monkeys." In cases like these, however, I tend to at least wait to see what prominent black people have to say and how they react.
wadesworld, I am intrigued about your outrage, given that Curry, Wilbon, Barkley and Sharpton have shrugged their shoulders about this.
And if Adams really "deserved" to get kicked in the nuts, what fate does a guy like Trump deserve? Or Riley Cooper?
Personally, I don't really care what people of a certain race, ethnicity, gender, etc. say about a subject. I like to form my own opinion on it. To be perfectly honest, I'm not all that outraged about it. I'm just saying that when someone who has spent a lot more time than I have (none) in New Zealand tells me that there's absolutely no chance he didn't know that the term "monkeys" was an incredibly derogatory word towards African Americans I tend to not buy into the whole, "Oh, it's all good, he uses the word 'mate' and has a cute accent. He's just ignorant!" excuse, so I could certainly understand how karma can sometimes hurt in this case.
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Yes.
Personally, I don't really care what people of a certain race, ethnicity, gender, etc. say about a subject. I like to form my own opinion on it. To be perfectly honest, I'm not all that outraged about it. I'm just saying that when someone who has spent a lot more time than I have (none) in New Zealand tells me that there's absolutely no chance he didn't know that the term "monkeys" was an incredibly derogatory word towards African Americans I tend to not buy into the whole, "Oh, it's all good, he uses the word 'mate' and has a cute accent. He's just ignorant!" excuse, so I could certainly understand how karma can sometimes hurt in this case.
I of course form my own opinion but for all of us, our opinions are formed taking in multiple factors.
So I do pay attention to the allegedly aggrieved parties. And if they are not particularly aggrieved, it makes little sense for me to be aggrieved on their behalf. It's kind of like these new polls showing that 90% of Indians are not offended by "Redskins." Who am I to tell them they should be? And I'm one who argued forcefully on their behalf up until now.
As for karma ... anybody who watched Game 4 saw Adams have another fine game and Green play worse than he has the entire postseason.
Karma's a bitch!
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I of course form my own opinion but for all of us, our opinions are formed taking in multiple factors.
So I do pay attention to the allegedly aggrieved parties. And if they are not particularly aggrieved, it makes little sense for me to be aggrieved on their behalf. It's kind of like these new polls showing that 90% of Indians are not offended by "Redskins." Who am I to tell them they should be? And I'm one who argued forcefully on their behalf up until now.
As for karma ... anybody who watched Game 4 saw Adams have another fine game and Green play worse than he has the entire postseason.
Karma's a bitch!
The African-American community can be outraged at whatever they want to be. I'm not trying to tell them they should be offended or raise hell about Steven Adams calling Curry and Thompson "monkeys." All I'm saying is that when someone who's experienced the culture Adams grew up in tells me that there is "absolutely no chance" he didn't know that was a derogatory word, I tend to believe him and not buy into the "cultural differences." Hell, New Zealand doesn't even have monkeys living in the country outside of zoos. So you're going to believe New Zealanders run around calling everyone who's pretty quick a "monkey?" I find it hard to believe, but again, I've never been there so maybe the buddy who has was just playing a trick on me thinking, "Hey, maybe this guy will go onto a Marquette basketball forum (he's not a Marquette fan at all, so he has no idea I spend my days on here) and make a fool of himself based on my joke!"
And yes, Draymond played awful, just like the entire Warriors team has played awful all Playoffs, really. Draymond is a great guy to have on your team during the regular season because he's pretty versatile and he works really hard. When it gets to the Playoffs and everyone works really hard, Draymond needs to be stronger than the guys he's going up against to be anything overly impressive. To be honest if you throw him on any top level team he's at best the 3rd best player, and if he's better than your 3rd best player you simply aren't that great of a team. He looks great because Curry and Thompson create such a wide open court for him that he can get open looks at will plus open passing lanes, but if I'm playing against him I'm begging him to shoot any shot 18 feet and out, and hoping the ball just stays in his hands.
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You've never been to New Zealand, but have no problem calling them a "terribly racist society." OK...
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You've never been to New Zealand, but have no problem calling them a "terribly racist society." OK...
Yeah, my friend is a minority who has been there. So like I said, maybe it's all a big joke and he's sitting here as a UW Madison fan/alum monitoring MUScoop to see me come and report this and getting a good kick out of it. Could be! OK...
You could look it up yourself, there are plenty of articles about the racism problems in New Zealand. Or you can just think "wadesworld said it so I'm going to go against what he said because it's what I do."
Either way, whatever makes you happy.
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There are racists everywhere. Adams doesn't seem to be one. No one seems outraged about his comments. Therefore I think it was a slip of the tongue and not indicative of his mindset.
Or I will think he is the product of a "terribly racist society" and deserves to be kicked in the balls because wades is doing his Skip Bayless impression.
Yeah I'm going with the former.
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There are racists everywhere. Adams doesn't seem to be one. No one seems outraged about his comments. Therefore I think it was a slip of the tongue and not indicative of his mindset.
Or I will think he is the product of a "terribly racist society" and deserves to be kicked in the balls because wades is doing his Skip Bayless impression.
Yeah I'm going with the former.
Fair enough pal.
Sounds like one of us was told a first hand experience and then did a simple Google search to immediately find that the claim was pretty easily backed up (New Zealand, like Australia, is a very racist country), while the other just thinks, "The guy's Skip Bayless and doesn't know what he's talking about!"
Thanks as always for chiming in, Steven A!
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You're painting with a real broad brush here. I have a friend who's spent extensive time in New Zealand. He loves it and is moving there. He's a racial minority and has had no issues with racism there. Individual experiences are just that--individual.
He said something he shouldn't have, he theoretically didn't know it was wrong, he genuinely apologized, and (almost) everyone has moved on.
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You're painting with a real broad brush here. I have a friend who's spent extensive time in New Zealand. He loves it and is moving there. He's a racial minority and has had no issues with racism there. Individual experiences are just that--individual.
He said something he shouldn't have, he theoretically didn't know it was wrong, he genuinely apologized, and (almost) everyone has moved on.
Fair enough. Glad he's had a great experience and is happy to be moving there.
I'll step out of the argument with the words of a sociologist professor from Aukland regarding the phrase, "Two Wongs don't make a white," used first by a New Zealand political leader in 1947 and then recited by New Zealand First leader Winston Peters a year ago in regards to Chinese home buyers (not a racist statement at all from one of the biggest political figures in the entire country, I guess):
"The problem is that a lot of people here still think that it is okay to make jokes like that and those who are offended should simply lighten up. The inference is they should stop complaining and fit in."
Best of luck to your friend. The brush is being painted by one of their own.
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New Zealanders use the term "little monkeys" to describe children running around and acting goofy. There are no racial overtones when using that term in New Zealand. Basically, Adams was trying to say that defending Curry and Thompson was like chasing around a couple of fast kids.
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The African-American community can be outraged at whatever they want to be. I'm not trying to tell them they should be offended or raise hell about Steven Adams calling Curry and Thompson "monkeys." All I'm saying is that when someone who's experienced the culture Adams grew up in tells me that there is "absolutely no chance" he didn't know that was a derogatory word, I tend to believe him and not buy into the "cultural differences." Hell, New Zealand doesn't even have monkeys living in the country outside of zoos. So you're going to believe New Zealanders run around calling everyone who's pretty quick a "monkey?" I find it hard to believe, but again, I've never been there so maybe the buddy who has was just playing a trick on me thinking, "Hey, maybe this guy will go onto a Marquette basketball forum (he's not a Marquette fan at all, so he has no idea I spend my days on here) and make a fool of himself based on my joke!"
And yes, Draymond played awful, just like the entire Warriors team has played awful all Playoffs, really. Draymond is a great guy to have on your team during the regular season because he's pretty versatile and he works really hard. When it gets to the Playoffs and everyone works really hard, Draymond needs to be stronger than the guys he's going up against to be anything overly impressive. To be honest if you throw him on any top level team he's at best the 3rd best player, and if he's better than your 3rd best player you simply aren't that great of a team. He looks great because Curry and Thompson create such a wide open court for him that he can get open looks at will plus open passing lanes, but if I'm playing against him I'm begging him to shoot any shot 18 feet and out, and hoping the ball just stays in his hands.
All right, wades, we've both said our piece and I guess we're both dug in. Seems a little silly to me, but whatevs.
We're cool, and we agree on most things hoops-related.
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All right, wades, we've both said our piece and I guess we're both dug in. Seems a little silly to me, but whatevs.
We're cool, and we agree on most things hoops-related.
Yup, it's nothing personal, just an opinion, which...
New Zealanders use the term "little monkeys" to describe children running around and acting goofy. There are no racial overtones when using that term in New Zealand. Basically, Adams was trying to say that defending Curry and Thompson was like chasing around a couple of fast kids.
...turns out I was apparently wrong.
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I'm not a Kiwi, but we call our kids little monkeys all the time.
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I'm not a Kiwi, but we call our kids little monkeys all the time.
(http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/disneycreate/images/d/db/Thats-Racist.gif/revision/latest?cb=20131226161449)