MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Charley Farley on April 21, 2016, 10:08:37 PM
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I'm curious, why is it that it's fine in the minds of most for a player to go pro after one year when it is his best interest and the best interest of his family, but it is not ok to not renew the scholarship of a player when it is in the best interest of the coach and program. Is commitment not a two way street?
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I'm curious, why is it that it's fine in the minds of most for a player to go pro after one year when it is his best interest and the best interest of his family, but it is not ok to not renew the scholarship of a player when it is in the best interest of the coach and program. Is commitment not a two way street?
1. I've been told that Henry has made it clear during recruitment he only planned to play one year.
2. Ellenson is about to get a 3 year guaranteed contract as a top 10 pick. Why isn't it in his best interest to go?
3. I hold a coach to a higher standard than a 19-year old.
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It is in his best interest to leave and I think he should. My point is that Wojo also has to do what is in his best interest. Every player should assume their scholarship is a year by year offer. Perform or get out. Welcome to life. You want all the perks of being a big time college basketball player then you have to deal with the pressures also.
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SO MUCH HAND WRINGING!
Get over it already
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It is in his best interest to leave and I think he should. My point is that Wojo also has to do what is in his best interest. Every player should assume their scholarship is a year by year offer. Perform or get out. Welcome to life. You want all the perks of being a big time college basketball player then you have to deal with the pressures also.
Sorry misread it.
It all depends on setting expectations. If Wojo told Wally he was welcome on the team all three years and suddenly pulled the schollie, that's on Wojo. Wally as a player didn't change. Now if Wally refused to dedicate himself to basketball I could see Wojo's side.
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3. I hold a coach to a higher standard than a 19-year old.
OK, I just don't buy the whole "poor 19-year old kid" thing. This entire arrangement was a business deal worked out by adults. Everyone knew knew exactly what they wanted and got it for two years. You can argue Wally was a pawn in the deal, but he hardly came off a loser.
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Who's next? Sandy?
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Sandy next? Sandy should have been first
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When one side is being paid millions and the other is getting a free "education" I expect the side that is earning millions off these players to hold their end of the bargains. If a player is having a hard time or has a better opportunity elsewhere I believe it is well within their rights to seek it.
Now if we want to leave all this bullcrap about "a family" or "bettering these players" or "great opportunity of education" or any of the other dumb things coaches/ncaa say, then I'm all for the cuts.
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When one side is being paid millions and the other is getting a free "education" I expect the side that is earning millions off these players to hold their end of the bargains. If a player is having a hard time or has a better opportunity elsewhere I believe it is well within their rights to seek it.
Now if we want to leave all this bullcrap about "a family" or "bettering these players" or "great opportunity of education" or any of the other dumb things coaches/ncaa say, then I'm all for the cuts.
Remember that the guy that is getting millions got to that position by starting off as one of those guys just getting a free education. He used that free education to position himself for a lifelong career that is now getting him paid millions.
Many would kill to have the opportunity these gets get to have for free.
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Now if we want to leave all this bullcrap about "a family" or "bettering these players" or "great opportunity of education" or any of the other dumb things coaches/ncaa say, then I'm all for the cuts.
Wally did get a great opportunity for education. In fact, even after he was cut, Marquette still made sure he had a scholarship to continue his education. He also was bettered as a player. Just not bettered enough to be better than the 13 other players who want to be a part of our program.
And it is a family. Wojo has to think of the needs of all of his players. What is more important, giving a back of the rotation player a basketball scholarship and committing yourself to another year of rebuilding? Or give a back of the roation player a track scholarship and signing a player who can put your team back in the ncaa tournament? How is it fair to Luke and JJJ who have never been to an NCAA tournament and will never get another chance to handicap your team like that?
Wally doesn't deserve special treatment because his brother is an NBA star. Scholarships are earned, he didn't earn his. He tried his hardest, I believe that. But he's simply not a high major basketball player. Scholarship needs to go to another player.
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Marquette basketball is a business. In that light the CEO is expected to be as competitive as possible.
But an interesting question is: If Henry stays for another year does Wojo cut Wally?
Therein lies the bottom line.
Personally, I think the whole Wally thing was a calculated, cynical move by Wojo.
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Marquette basketball is a business. In that light the CEO is expected to be as competitive as possible.
But an interesting question is: If Henry stays for another year does Wojo cut Wally?
Therein lies the bottom line.
Personally, I think the whole Wally thing was a calculated, cynical move by Wojo.
That's a my gripe right now. Wally will come out of this fine, but he came here because he wanted to play basketball, and that's now no longer an option, not here or anywhere. I have a feeling there's no way that happens if Henry stays.
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That's a my gripe right now. Wally will come out of this fine, but he came here because he wanted to play basketball, and that's now no longer an option, not here or anywhere. I have a feeling there's no way that happens if Henry stays.
In the other thread I posted Wally's stats at Minnesota. Without Henry no way is he able to transfer to MU based on his play.
It works both ways.
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That's a my gripe right now. Wally will come out of this fine, but he came here because he wanted to play basketball, and that's now no longer an option, not here or anywhere. I have a feeling there's no way that happens if Henry stays.
I wanted to play basketball in college too
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Of course Wally would still be on the team if Henry was. But then again, we'd have 36 minutes of our #4 covered and his sitting at the end of the bench wouldn't be an issue. That's definitely not the case today.
The real trade here is Wally for Reinhardt. I'd be upset if Wally hadn't received a full track ride. But he did and our basketball team is significantly better as a result. Done.
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I'm curious, why is it that it's fine in the minds of most for a player to go pro after one year when it is his best interest and the best interest of his family, but it is not ok to not renew the scholarship of a player when it is in the best interest of the coach and program. Is commitment not a two way street?
Is it in the best interest of the program? I do not think so, because it hurts the program's and coach's reputation. I am assuming here, but I can see this hurting team unity. Assuming they bring someone else in, it is not likely to help much this season anyways. To me it is a short sighted decision. Personally, I think Wojo knowing he had four seniors should of concentrated on next year's class with an emphasis on players over 6'7".
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Of course Wally would still be on the team if Henry was. But then again, we'd have 36 minutes of our #4 covered and his sitting at the end of the bench wouldn't be an issue. That's definitely not the case today.
The real trade here is Wally for Reinhardt. I'd be upset if Wally hadn't received a full track ride. But he did and our basketball team is significantly better as a result. Done.
This is 100% correct. I also have no doubt that this possibility was communicated to all parties depending on how Wally developed. If there wasn't an Ellenson connection this would simply be a recruiting miss (talent just wasn't there) and we would all move on with a collective shrug. The kid wanted to play at a very high level in two NCAA sports, that's extremely rare and it turns out he couldn't do both since he didn't develop adequately as a basketball player to justify his scholarship.
And for those talking about team chemistry....how's the chemistry work out if you keep Wally which may hamper the opportunity for guys like JjJ and Luke to make their first ever tournament as well as making them do all the work while Wally gets to skip out on stuff so he can try in a different sport with a different team?
I will freely admit the optics don't look great, and there might be some fall out but at the end of the day I'm comfortable with the move, the Ellensons get a lot out of all of this and Marquette will be a better basketball team next year and the following years.
#respecttheprocess
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This is 100% correct. I also have no doubt that this possibility was communicated to all parties depending on how Wally developed. If there wasn't an Ellenson connection this would simply be a recruiting miss (talent just wasn't there) and we would all move on with a collective shrug. The kid wanted to play at a very high level in two NCAA sports, that's extremely rare and it turns out he couldn't do both since he didn't develop adequately as a basketball player to justify his scholarship.
And for those talking about team chemistry....how's the chemistry work out if you keep Wally which may hamper the opportunity for guys like JjJ and Luke to make their first ever tournament as well as making them do all the work while Wally gets to skip out on stuff so he can try in a different sport with a different team?
I will freely admit the optics don't look great, and there might be some fall out but at the end of the day I'm comfortable with the move, the Ellensons get a lot out of all of this and Marquette will be a better basketball team next year and the following years.
#respecttheprocess
The optics don't look great because it's a chump move by Wojo. I'm reading all the rationalizations and they are all valid but bottom line is and anyone that is honest with themselves knows this is not cool. Wojo's ethics are now in question along with his coaching ability. The timetable on Wojo's hotseat was just moved to next season. This team better dance next year.
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The optics don't look great because it's a chump move by Wojo. I'm reading all the rationalizations and they are all valid but bottom line is and anyone that is honest with themselves knows this is not cool. Wojo's ethics are now in question along with his coaching ability. The timetable on Wojo's hotseat was just moved to next season. This team better dance next year.
Why is is not cool? The Ellensons will have one kid graduate debt free with a college degree while having a good shot at the olympics and the other will be making millions in the NBA. Wally wasn't fully committed to the basketball program (perfectly understandable) but he also didn't have the talent that justified such an extravagance so we've moved on.
Wojo had to get to the dance next year anyway, now he's just given himself a shot to do so.
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The optics don't look great because it's a chump move by Wojo. I'm reading all the rationalizations and they are all valid but bottom line is and anyone that is honest with themselves knows this is not cool. Wojo's ethics are now in question along with his coaching ability. The timetable on Wojo's hotseat was just moved to next season. This team better dance next year.
Again, the vast majority here are twisting themselves in knots defending MU. Just imagine the sh*tstorm here if UW had pulled this.
I think the big mistake is thinking Wojo is different from other coaches or MU is different from other schools.
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SO MUCH HAND WRINGING!
Get over it already
I will reserve final judgement until all the facts come out, if they do. But it certainly isn't hang wringing to say that an institution that I care about should hold itself to a standard higher than "only winning matters." If Wojo even insinuated that Wally would have been allowed to stay on the team and still try for the Olympics, than Wally should be on the team. If Sunday was the first time this issue came up, than Wally should still be on the team.
**I don't care if we need a power forward. That's Wojo's fault for poor roster construction.
**I don't care if Wally still can go to school for free. He came here to play basketball at Wojo's invitation. If he just wanted to be a track athlete, he would have either stayed at Minnesota or gone somewhere else.
**I don't care if the Ellensons give Wojo a headache. That's not Wally's fault.
I don't like the rationalizations. I don't like the condescending attitude about Wally. I want Marquette to be the institution *it claims* to be. Now I will still root for them to win, but I think this is a black mark on both Wojo and the program IF this was a "cold, calculated move" as keefe puts it.
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There isn't a level of basketball beyond middle school where a player can't get cut, not sure why people think college should be any different.
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Again, the vast majority here are twisting themselves in knots defending MU. Just imagine the sh*tstorm here if UW had pulled this.
I think the big mistake is thinking Wojo is different from other coaches or MU is different from other schools.
I don't think there is a single person on this board that thinks this is an awesome move, simply that it is a necessary evil and we can accept the negative blow back that comes with it. Other programs should criticize us....if they don't have any recruiting issues in their own closet *cough* Uthoff *cough*
Wojo is no different and he made a move that will probably be good for the program long term. If it's not then it's a black mark on his record, if he gets too many of those he gowne
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When one side is being paid millions and the other is getting a free "education" I expect the side that is earning millions off these players to hold their end of the bargains. If a player is having a hard time or has a better opportunity elsewhere I believe it is well within their rights to seek it.
Now if we want to leave all this bullcrap about "a family" or "bettering these players" or "great opportunity of education" or any of the other dumb things coaches/ncaa say, then I'm all for the cuts.
yep. as I've been saying for years, lets just call it what it is.
I don't understand why so may feel the need to contort their thinking because for some reason, they want/need to believe that Wojo isn't every bit the dirt bag as all the rest of these guys. He is. Its in the job description. That's the way the business works. I just don't get why people care. If you want to be a fan of college football/basketball you better be prepared to shower often. It has become a big money, cutthroat business, and Wojo/MU have done plenty to prove they are going to do what is necessary just like everybody else. The sooner you come to terms with that, the happier you'll be. Now, that may drive you away as it continues to for me, but my disappointment in this regard is not with MU as an institution because they are doing what's normal (they provide plenty of other reasons for disappointment), but rather with the sham system in which they operate that makes the behaviors normal.
If you dislike or think little of the likes of Pitino, Bo Ryan, Bob Huggins, Boeheim, Roy Williams, Buzz Williams...If you are being honest with yourself, you know darn well, you have every reason to feel the same about Wojo. Its just the nature of the business.
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The rodents suit up 18 to 20 players per game.
Marquette should give scholarships out to the best players possible that give us the best chance to win. Wally was given three scholarships (2 years for basketball and now 1 year track). We need to improve the roster err r to compete in the tough Big East. This isn't the slow and dull Big Ten. I hope we have another player changeover coming.
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I will reserve final judgement until all the facts come out, if they do. But it certainly isn't hang wringing to say that an institution that I care about should hold itself to a standard higher than "only winning matters." If Wojo even insinuated that Wally would have been allowed to stay on the team and still try for the Olympics, than Wally should be on the team. If Sunday was the first time this issue came up, than Wally should still be on the team.
**I don't care if we need a power forward. That's Wojo's fault for poor roster construction.
**I don't care if Wally still can go to school for free. He came here to play basketball at Wojo's invitation. If he just wanted to be a track athlete, he would have either stayed at Minnesota or gone somewhere else.
**I don't care if the Ellensons give Wojo a headache. That's not Wally's fault.
I don't like the rationalizations. I don't like the condescending attitude about Wally. I want Marquette to be the institution *it claims* to be. Now I will still root for them to win, but I think this is a black mark on both Wojo and the program IF this was a "cold, calculated move" as keefe puts it.
Sunday was not the first time this came up, it had been talked about all through the process. Wally was never guaranteed a spot, he had to mature as a player and develop...Wojo felt he hadn't matured enough and would not with his limited summer involvement up coming, the parents disagreed. Largely the "disagreement" stems from the evaluation of Wally's basketball talent.
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Remember that the guy that is getting millions got to that position by starting off as one of those guys just getting a free education. He used that free education to position himself for a lifelong career that is now getting him paid millions.
Many would kill to have the opportunity these gets get to have for free.
I would agree with you if it wasn't for a dumb rule that prevented him going pro in the first place. Nothing was special about MU that made him into a lottery pick. If he would've not even played this year (just trained), went d-league, or went to china he still would have been a top 20 pick.
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That's a my gripe right now. Wally will come out of this fine, but he came here because he wanted to play basketball, and that's now no longer an option, not here or anywhere. I have a feeling there's no way that happens if Henry stays.
You are right. Had Henry stayed, Wally would have stayed. And then Sacar or Sandy would have gotten the axe so we could pick up Reinhardt. And no one would have cared.
This is the part that bothers me the most. Players get cut all the time. We didn't bat an eye when Jamal Ferguson or Scott Christopherson or others were let go. But because Wally has a famous brother, we think this is the worst thing in the world. Wally doesn't deserve special treatment because his brother is a budding NBA star. If you are the 13th man on the roster and there's someone else who's better than you who wants to sign, you're going to get cut. Most of the time you don't get a full ride in another sport so you have the option to stay at your current university.
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And for those talking about team chemistry....how's the chemistry work out if you keep Wally which may hamper the opportunity for guys like JjJ and Luke to make their first ever tournament as well as making them do all the work while Wally gets to skip out on stuff so he can try in a different sport with a different team?
What if there was an issue with team chemistry because teammates believed Wally was getting preferential treatment? As in, the players are there every single day taking shots, running drills, lifting weights, busting their a$$es to improve their game while Wally was off jumping over a bar.
Admittedly, I have no idea if this is the case and I don't mean to insinuate that track athletes don't put in hours of hard work but the Adam LaRoche situation made me wonder about this. In that case, there was a ton of immediate backlash against the FO before it came out that some teammates had voiced displeasure about Drake's constant presence.
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Why is is not cool? The Ellensons will have one kid graduate debt free with a college degree while having a good shot at the olympics and the other will be making millions in the NBA. Wally wasn't fully committed to the basketball program (perfectly understandable) but he also didn't have the talent that justified such an extravagance so we've moved on.
Wojo had to get to the dance next year anyway, now he's just given himself a shot to do so.
Do we know that Wally was given the choice to go "all-in" on basketball or not? If he was given that choice and said "nah, I'm still going to do track" knowing what that would mean (off the b-ball team) then there is absolutely no issue at all. If he wasn't given the choice, or didn't fully understand what that choice meant to his basketball future, then I think I might feel a little differently.
Not sure anybody knows the above, but pretty important to fully judge what went down.
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You are right. Had Henry stayed, Wally would have stayed. And then Sacar or Sandy would have gotten the axe so we could pick up Reinhardt. And no one would have cared.
This is the part that bothers me the most. Players get cut all the time. We didn't bat an eye when Jamal Ferguson or Scott Christopherson or others were let go. But because Wally has a famous brother, we think this is the worst thing in the world. Wally doesn't deserve special treatment because his brother is a budding NBA star. If you are the 13th man on the roster and there's someone else who's better than you who wants to sign, you're going to get cut. Most of the time you don't get a full ride in another sport so you have the option to stay at your current university.
No what bothers me is that Wally was cut with no basketball options available. Sacar and Sandy would have had plenty.
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Sunday was not the first time this came up, it had been talked about all through the process. Wally was never guaranteed a spot, he had to mature as a player and develop...Wojo felt he hadn't matured enough and would not with his limited summer involvement up coming, the parents disagreed. Largely the "disagreement" stems from the evaluation of Wally's basketball talent.
And if this is the case, then I am fine.
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No what bothers me is that Wally was cut with no basketball options available. Sacar and Sandy would have had plenty.
I wouldn't be certain that Wally doesn't have any basketball options.
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This has been interesting. There are some here who seemingly believe that MU must commit to a player for the full term of his basketball eligibility from day #1. I'd argue that a surefire way to finish 8th every year in what has become an annual competitive environment for the best players. Kids are now using the Graduate Transfer option to position themselves. So schools can't?
I'd be the first to say Wally was getting a raw deal is his scholly had been yanked and he had no recourse to graduate from MU or any other institution (because of the 6 year limit) without paying the freight. But that's not what happened at all.
So let's take this to the next logical level. Let's say Sacar doesn't progress at all this year and it become apparent that he won't get above 12th man during his 4 years here despite being a great kid and a credit to the university. Wojo should honor that bench spot for two more years so the kid can graduate? Or should he make a ton of phone calls on Sacar's behalf trying to help him land a transfer spot at a school where he can contribute on the basketball court while at the same time excelling in the classroom toward his degree? I'd argue Wojo's (and Marquette's) moral obligation would be complete following step #2. It would seem some disagree.
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I wouldn't be certain that Wally doesn't have any basketball options.
TAMU, Sultan's right. Wally doesn't have D1 basketball options as far as I can calculate. He doesn't qualify for graduate transfer status, would have to sit out a year, and won't be eligible the year after that. That part does suck.
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I wouldn't be certain that Wally doesn't have any basketball options.
He'd have to drop from D1 to a lower division.
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Look, this is not ideal. But commitment is a two way street. At any school, including the one to the west. Wally, rightfully, based upon his track potential is not fully committed to basketball. But some on here think Wojo should be fully committed to him, even if he isn't fully committed to the team. All the other players have to be fully committed. Welcome to D-1 basketball. Wally has not lost the love for basketball, but he isn't totally 100% in love with basketball either.
I can see both sides, but it truly is a two way commitment. Kind of tough on Wally as he wants to play basketball, but isn't going to be fully committed to the team like the other 12 players. Kind of tough on Wojo to say all others have to be fully committed, attend summer school, work outs, etc, but not for Wally...
Both sides need to take a deep breath and realize this is not clear cut. For those who think black and white, there is a lot more grey here.
For those that disagree, the next time a player decides to not be 100% committed, has other interests first, the coach at MU should say great, let's help you out with that and of course we'll keep you on scholarship and you do your thing. Not happening anywhere at the higher D-1 level.
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That's a my gripe right now. Wally will come out of this fine, but he came here because he wanted to play basketball, and that's now no longer an option, not here or anywhere. I have a feeling there's no way that happens if Henry stays.
No doubt in my mind — if Henry didn't declare for the NBA draft, Wally is still on the roster for the 2016-17. So it's obviously not just about Wally's basketball abilities. But I'm not sure it ever was. Would we have pursued Wally as a transfer if he wasn't Luke's brother? I don't think so. I hoped that Wally could translate his athleticism into becoming a high-energy role player, defender and rebounder off the bench, but he never showed much in the way of development.
The fact is that Henry did declare for the draft. And that changed everything. It changed the roster and focus of the entire team. And if we signed Wally in part to make his brother happy — well, his brother's not on the team anymore.
If you have issues with Wally losing his MU basketball scholarship, I think you also have to question whether he should have gotten one in the first place.
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There's only one thing I know for sure, and it's the majority of players on this team won't be losing any sleep over not having any Ellenson's on the team any longer. There's a lot going on here, but that's one thing you don't need to worry about. Team unity will be fine.
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Of course Wally would still be on the team if Henry was. But then again, we'd have 36 minutes of our #4 covered and his sitting at the end of the bench wouldn't be an issue. That's definitely not the case today.
Agreed. If Henry had stayed, we would have no need to replace Wally.
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I wouldn't be certain that Wally doesn't have any basketball options.
Right - he can play at the rec center and go after all of Ners's single season records.
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Right - he can play at the rec center and go after all of Ners's single season records.
Maybe he can go play with his other brother.
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He'd have to drop from D1 to a lower division.
That is an option. I think there might be other options as well.
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Maybe he can go play with his other brother.
That brother graduated
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Do we know that Wally was given the choice to go "all-in" on basketball or not? If he was given that choice and said "nah, I'm still going to do track" knowing what that would mean (off the b-ball team) then there is absolutely no issue at all. If he wasn't given the choice, or didn't fully understand what that choice meant to his basketball future, then I think I might feel a little differently.
Not sure anybody knows the above, but pretty important to fully judge what went down.
Yes
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There's only one thing I know for sure, and it's the majority of players on this team won't be losing any sleep over not having any Ellenson's on the team any longer. There's a lot going on here, but that's one thing you don't need to worry about. Team unity will be fine.
that's a pretty bold statement there
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that's a pretty bold statement there
Travis Diener wouldn't lie would he?
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that's a pretty bold statement there
bold and correct aren't mutually exclusive terms FYI
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that's a pretty bold statement there
Bold as in BOLD, yet it will get lost in the drivel of moral existentialism.
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Its in the job description. That's the way the business works. I just don't get why people care. If you want to be a fan of college football/basketball you better be prepared to shower often. It has become a big money, cutthroat business, and Wojo/MU have done plenty to prove they are going to do what is necessary just like everybody else. The sooner you come to terms with that, the happier you'll be.
This is the best point made throughout all of these threads.
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With regards to da Wally heave ho by Wojo, y'all don't seem ta get it. This isn't some playin' in da sandbox, holdin' hands, and singin' kumbaya gig. Warrior hoops is big time business and da University has committed da shekels needed for da coach to be successful. This team has not been to da post season for 3 years and it stings bad. If Steve can't get it done, he'll soon be standin' in line on 12th and Vliet St. Let da man do his job. Who da fook are we kiddin' here? Wojo and the athletic director are in obvious lockstep to right this ship. Frankly, there's a lot more dead driftwood on da roster that should be purged if an upgrade in talent were available.
Athletes transfer constantly, yet da coach is expected ta stand on higher ground. Don't commitments work both ways? Besides, athletic scholarships are one year renewable. So, everythin' with regards to Wally is kosher. He got a more than fair shake and continues to do so. Da answer is real simple. Wanna be on a basketball scholarship and part of da team? Then, improve yo game, ai na?
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There's only one thing I know for sure, and it's the majority of players on this team won't be losing any sleep over not having any Ellenson's on the team any longer. There's a lot going on here, but that's one thing you don't need to worry about. Team unity will be fine.
Disagree on the team unity will be fine comment. This was a necessary issue to take care of but there is still one glaring and obvious issue that needs to be addressed for team unity to be fine next year.
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Disagree on the team unity will be fine comment. This was a necessary issue to take care of but there is still one glaring and obvious issue that needs to be addressed for team unity to be fine next year.
Even BOLDER statement.
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He'd have to drop from D1 to a lower division.
Only D3. D2 is not an option.