Buzz just lost his second guy in as many days - Jalen Hudson and Satchel Pierce. As has been discussed ad nauseam here, transfers are hardly uncommon in modern NCAA Basketball. Nonetheless, it definitely seems that Buzz has more than his fair share.
Why is it that some programs (and/or some coaches) face so many more transfers than others? Is it realistic to say that some coaches are that much harder on their players? Do some coaches over-sell what they have to offer? Other thoughts...?
Ah Satchel Pierce...
Satchel Paige Pierce was a project Buzz gave a chance to. He did not work out. I hope he finds a home in a lesser conference and does well.
Satch hardly played this season. Looked decent as a frosh the year before. Wonder what happened?
Quote from: Nukem2 on April 06, 2016, 07:25:42 PM
Satch hardly played this season. Looked decent as a frosh the year before. Wonder what happened?
VT got better. He didn't
Satchel Pierce was never a part of the Marquette program. He was part of Team Bert. Obviously, his faith was misplaced.
Quote from: MUFlutieEffect on April 06, 2016, 06:49:35 PM
Buzz just lost his second guy in as many days - Jalen Hudson and Satchel Pierce. As has been discussed ad nauseam here, transfers are hardly uncommon in modern NCAA Basketball. Nonetheless, it definitely seems that Buzz has more than his fair share.
Why is it that some programs (and/or some coaches) face so many more transfers than others? Is it realistic to say that some coaches are that much harder on their players? Do some coaches over-sell what they have to offer? Other thoughts...?
Bi-polar, ai-na?
Buzz doesn't seem to keep his fringe players around. But not many of those who left under Buzz did much elsewhere. Pierce did next to nothing this past season. He was a project all along. If he does not see increased PT in his future, why not go somewhere he can play. Next, Buzz is always recruiting and doesn't fear a transfer. Finally, IIRC, somewhere around 40% of D1 basketball players transfer. (or is it do not play 4 years at their original school?)
Mbao 2.0
Quote from: Nukem2 on April 06, 2016, 07:25:42 PM
Satch hardly played this season. Looked decent as a frosh the year before. Wonder what happened?
yeah, i thought he looked pretty good-surprised he dropped off buzz' radar-he looked to have size and some talent-anyone know what happened? VT does seem to be moving forward however according to some pre-season prognostications
Quote from: rocket surgeon on April 07, 2016, 05:49:50 AM
VT does seem to be moving forward however according to some pre-season prognostications
Everyone knows you need a football program in order for your basketball program to succeed...... ::)
Buzz takes chances on projects and late bloomers (usually bigs) in hopes that they'll develop and/or raise their level of play to at least be rotation players. Sometimes it works out well for both parties (Otule, Gardner) and sometimes it doesn't (Mbao, Pierce).
For better or worse, that's his recruiting style.
Anyone care to discuss Kostas in light of the Satchel Pierce transfer?
I think that Wojo puts a premium on roster stability and for that reason, he's far less likely to take a flyer on a project.
Take a flier like Kostas when you have a roster with balance, both by position and by year. When you have that, a kid like Kostas is the one you WANT to take a flier on. Possible extreme upside, not needed to contribute for 2-3 years. But everyone involved has to understand that going in.
Quote from: tower912 on April 07, 2016, 10:14:35 AM
Take a flier like Kostas when you have a roster with balance, both by position and by year. When you have that, a kid like Kostas is the one you WANT to take a flier on. Possible extreme upside, not needed to contribute for 2-3 years. But everyone involved has to understand that going in.
I think that's a great point. Wojo must get production out of this scholly immediately. Doesn't necessarily have to start but must produce in a meaningful way.
Quote from: jsglow on April 07, 2016, 11:02:09 AM
I think that's a great point. Wojo must get production out of this scholly immediately. Doesn't necessarily have to start but must produce in a meaningful way.
Like Heldt and Anim this season?
If Wojo wants an immediate contributor, he'll go for a grad transfer big man. However, he's building for the long-term. What will he decide makes the most sense: a 1-year postplayer to contribute immediately or a 4-year postplayer who won't be ready to contribute right away?
After Luke graduates, it's Heldt and no other front court players.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 07, 2016, 11:22:26 AM
Like Heldt and Anim this season?
If Wojo wants an immediate contributor, he'll go for a grad transfer big man. However, he's building for the long-term. What will he decide makes the most sense: a 1-year postplayer to contribute immediately or a 4-year postplayer who won't be ready to contribute right away?
After Luke graduates, it's Heldt and no other front court players.
This is a good point. You got to look ahead at recruiting. You don't want to put yourself in a position where you need to find a grad transfer every year to fill a hole. That works for a while but eventually you'll miss and fall hard.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 07, 2016, 11:22:26 AM
After Luke graduates, it's Heldt and no other front court players.
As of today that is True.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 07, 2016, 11:22:26 AM
If Wojo wants an immediate contributor, he'll go for a grad transfer big man. However, he's building for the long-term. What will he decide makes the most sense: a 1-year postplayer to contribute immediately or a 4-year postplayer who won't be ready to contribute right away?
I don't mean to single you out, Stache, because this "building for the long-term" fiction is a recurring theme from more posters than I can count on Scoop.
Wojo's best player in his first year was a one year graduate student. His best player in year two was a one and done freshman and he went hard (albeit unsuccessfully) after several one year grad transfers and two year jucos. This year we're in the grad transfer game again. His objective is win now. If he can't get the players to win now he reverts to plan B, which is to win later.
One year transfers make sense when the transfer is the missing link for a very good team. Trent Locket filled that bill. Carlino was a better player than Locket, but the team still sucked with him, so signing a four year player may of made more sense. Getting a transfer last year could of made that team very good. Unless the transfer is a physical rebounder/defender it does not make much sense to take a one year transfer this year.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 07, 2016, 11:22:26 AM
Like Heldt and Anim this season?
A minor point - Heldt was getting decent backup minutes (~5mpg) when Luke came out of the game -- before he got hurt.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on April 07, 2016, 01:13:04 PM
A minor point - Heldt was getting decent backup minutes (~5mpg) when Luke came out of the game -- before he got hurt.
And you'd consider that to be "producing in a meaningful way?" (jsglow's statement)
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 07, 2016, 01:23:09 PM
And you'd consider that to be "producing in a meaningful way?" (jsglow's statement)
More meaningful than Anim.
I'd say Wojo needs more than Heldt and Anim production out of this scholly. How much more is an open question. I'll answer it this way. Hopefully he finds TC Frosh PG level production.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 07, 2016, 12:36:32 PM
I don't mean to single you out, Stache, because this "building for the long-term" fiction is a recurring theme from more posters than I can count on Scoop.
Wojo's best player in his first year was a one year graduate student. His best player in year two was a one and done freshman and he went hard (albeit unsuccessfully) after several one year grad transfers and two year jucos. This year we're in the grad transfer game again. His objective is win now. If he can't get the players to win now he reverts to plan B, which is to win later.
Ding Ding Ding
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 07, 2016, 12:36:32 PM
I don't mean to single you out, Stache, because this "building for the long-term" fiction is a recurring theme from more posters than I can count on Scoop.
Wojo's best player in his first year was a one year graduate student. His best player in year two was a one and done freshman and he went hard (albeit unsuccessfully) after several one year grad transfers and two year jucos. This year we're in the grad transfer game again. His objective is win now. If he can't get the players to win now he reverts to plan B, which is to win later.
I can't speak for everyone, but I know when I talk about building long term all I mean is that Wojo looks at the long term before the short term. For example, everyone is clamoring for a grad transfer big to play next season. I think Wojo would take one, but not if it means not getting a Khalif Young or Dylan O...ski. Wojo is already looking ahead and seeing that if he doesn't recruit a big for the 17-18 season, we are going to have Matt Heldt and that's it in the post. The need for a 17-18 big is greater than the need for a 16-17 big. Other coaches might not think that way. They might the think, the need for a 17-18 big is greater but I have more time to fill it. I'll get a grad transfer PF this year and worry about 17-18 later. That could work fine, but if the coach never gets that 17-18 big, than you could be in huge trouble down the road.
Also, as pointed out in other threads, Wojo's never had full scholarships to work with before. Matt Carlino didn't take a spot from anybody because we had other schollies to fill. Same with Henry and Damion Lee. Now, if he gets a Savon Goodman, it actually means sacrificing a potential two, three, or four year contributor because there is no more schollies to give.
Quote from: Howard's Eagle on April 07, 2016, 03:42:14 PM
I can't speak for everyone, but I know when I talk about building long term all I mean is that Wojo looks at the long term before the short term. For example, everyone is clamoring for a grad transfer big to play next season. I think Wojo would take one, but not if it means not getting a Khalif Young or Dylan O...ski. Wojo is already looking ahead and seeing that if he doesn't recruit a big for the 17-18 season, we are going to have Matt Heldt and that's it in the post. The need for a 17-18 big is greater than the need for a 16-17 big. Other coaches might not think that way. They might the think, the need for a 17-18 big is greater but I have more time to fill it. I'll get a grad transfer PF this year and worry about 17-18 later. That could work fine, but if the coach never gets that 17-18 big, than you could be in huge trouble down the road.
Also, as pointed out in other threads, Wojo's never had full scholarships to work with before. Matt Carlino didn't take a spot from anybody because we had other schollies to fill. Same with Henry and Damion Lee. Now, if he gets a Savon Goodman, it actually means sacrificing a potential two, three, or four year contributor because there is no more schollies to give.
With the proliferation of transfers in college bball, I dont know that coaches have the luxury of completely thinking this way. You cannot bank on a high percentage of your existing roster staying - or in the case of Buzz you need to turn over the non-productive part of your roster to get better. Additionally there is too much money tied up in this thing to have only a long-term focus.
This 'open scholly' theory of 1 year players sounds nice, but my bet is Wojo's priorities are 1. make the team as good as possible next year 2. dont completely burn yourself in out years.
Wojo could very well be playing 'the long game', but I think putting a tourney appearance on the board for 16-17 is more important at this stage in his career.
Quote from: Howard's Eagle on April 07, 2016, 03:42:14 PM
I can't speak for everyone, but I know when I talk about building long term all I mean is that Wojo looks at the long term before the short term. For example, everyone is clamoring for a grad transfer big to play next season. I think Wojo would take one, but not if it means not getting a Khalif Young or Dylan O...ski. Wojo is already looking ahead and seeing that if he doesn't recruit a big for the 17-18 season, we are going to have Matt Heldt and that's it in the post. The need for a 17-18 big is greater than the need for a 16-17 big. Other coaches might not think that way. They might the think, the need for a 17-18 big is greater but I have more time to fill it. I'll get a grad transfer PF this year and worry about 17-18 later. That could work fine, but if the coach never gets that 17-18 big, than you could be in huge trouble down the road.
Also, as pointed out in other threads, Wojo's never had full scholarships to work with before. Matt Carlino didn't take a spot from anybody because we had other schollies to fill. Same with Henry and Damion Lee. Now, if he gets a Savon Goodman, it actually means sacrificing a potential two, three, or four year contributor because there is no more schollies to give.
I agree with your side of the argument, Eagle.
Just because he has taken short term guys doesn't change that belief or mean that he doesn't prefer bringing in freshmen. Wojo has his ideas about how a team needs to be built, but a coach still has to do what he needs to do - and on a short roster, that sometimes means bringing in short-term guys.
Quote from: bilsu on April 07, 2016, 01:10:00 PM
One year transfers make sense when the transfer is the missing link for a very good team. Trent Locket filled that bill. Carlino was a better player than Locket, but the team still sucked with him, so signing a four year player may of made more sense. Getting a transfer last year could of made that team very good. Unless the transfer is a physical rebounder/defender it does not make much sense to take a one year transfer this year.
Maybe, but look at the perception issues also. With that lineup, adding another 4 year player would have added very little in the short term, and part of what Wojo needed to do was at least have "some" success and some wins in his first year. With the transfers, non-commitments, and such, he was a stop gap only.
End of the day, we are still young for next year, but certainly not as young....which we were so ridiculously on one side of that equation this season. Looking forward to next season.
It will be interesting to see how much we move up the "age chart". Weren't we the eighth youngest of 351 D-1 teams?