I keep hearing this craziness about sucking, or 3 years no post season. First of all, no one knows the latter yet, so let's wait a few hours.
Secondly, some of you guys must be in their 20's or 30's....I can't believe anyone in their 40's has already forgotten about Dukiet and O'Neill's first few years. It took KO 4 years to go to any post season tournament. Wojo is in year two and the team improved from the first year to the second. We'll see what happens next year.
Good recruits coming in, players understanding the style he wants to play..this is why you give a coach 4 or 5 years. Some of this knee jerk stuff....give it a rest. No way we should have missed all the post season Buzz's last year, but we did..he left...his guys transferred or didn't come, what was left wasn't the right pieces. So we've had a coach have to take what he has and try to get his guys into the mix, that takes time if you aren't cutting corners, cheating, etc. Patience.
+1
Chicos, I'm from the 1970s and I agree. It takes time to rebuild given what the Hillbilly left us with. I miss the thrill of the NCAA Championships with a Marquette entry and I've been regular following our team around the Midwest when tournament time comes. Yeah, I miss that.
But sometimes we have to invest. I've read some posts comparing us to, say General Electric. Coach Wojo is an investment and while a lot of us thought Henry might pay bigger short-term dividends than he did, the fact is that by any measure we're improving. We have what a lot of public companies have, restless shareholders (or stakeholders, in our case).
When Boeing started building the 747, for example, they knew that the work that was started in 1966 was not going to generate cash flow until 1970 and probably would not be profitable until the 1980s. Did that mean they didn't do it? No, they did and the 747 became the most ubiquitous airplane in the skies for 40 years.
We're no different. Wojo did not have the luxury Hank Raymonds did where he was taking over a defending national champion with a strong reputation and an ability to open any front door of a star high-school player in America. Nothing we could have done in Milwaukee could have made a difference last year (it was a disaster) and this year, perhaps we underachieved. But a basketball coach is a long-term investment and what we're hoping is that Marquette's presence in the NCAA in the future will be as ubiquitous as the 747s during the last 40 years.
We're on the right path with Coach Wojo. There's nothing that tells me this was not a great hire.
I'm on the fence whether it was a good, great, bad hire. I just don't know....I don't think any of us will know for a few more years.
What I do like, he wants to win, he is passionate about winning, he works hard, demands that of his players, represents the university well (it seems). Good recruiter, stresses defense first (that doesn't mean we are good at defense, but I think that is the right thing to stress).
What I don't like or am uncertain of....young staff. I'd like some experience there. I said the same thing when Crean was here. I'd like to see us get some guys that can shoot and handle the ball. Last 4 or 5 years the recruiting bios said that was coming, but it hasn't materialized to the level I would have liked. I remember the buzz on this board last year about Henry's 3 point shooting, and I didn't believe it then and I certainly don't believe it now. High school is a different thing altogether when shooting the 3....you're tired, long guys defending, etc. If we can get some kids to stretch the defense, and have a PG with heady decision making, cut down on the turnovers...I think we'll be ok.
But a few more years to know.
I remember the Dukiet and Deane years and even O'Neil.Really Hate to say that the only coach
the administration hired that had some results was "Tan Tommy". Liked him until he pulled out
of MU.
Chico's
As you know some of us are old enough to remember a lot of coaches along the way. I really have zero problem on not making postseason if the trend is going the right way. I have stated many times that I do not share the optimism for next season. If Henry leaves I am not so sure we play .500 ball next season.
More troubling to me is that I really do not see the talent in the program. Next year you have several guys that are mid to upper end D1 players and that is about it. I am sorry but the thought of getting jacked up for transfer from nowhere does not do it for me. Buzz left the joint in shambles and that is not Wojo's fault. Unfortunately fixing that is his problem.
I have always felt you have to sometimes go backwards to move ahead. My fear is going backwards for three years and not being able to buck the trend. This opinion is not based on my feelings of the program four decades ago. I love that era and Al as much as anyone on here but that is simply very fond memories. I have felt for long time that the school takes the program and supporters for granted and might be taking a big gamble on that philosophy.
Again, I am not going anywhere. I love MU and the basketball program way too much to jump ship. That said, I can say that I have moved from frustrated to really not caring as much. If good things happen I will be excited and if they do not I probably will care a little bit less.
Goose said it much better than I did. Agree with him. Been MU fan since Al's years.Talent isn't
there anymore.
Impossible to have any kind of opinion on Wojo for another 3 years.
Here is the Acid Test: Today is Selection Sunday.
Q1. How many Scoopers will bother to watch the Selection Sunday broadcast?
Q2: Will the Marquette players, cheerleaders, and fans jam the Mug Rack today to watch Selection Sunday?
Quote from: keefe on March 13, 2016, 02:29:37 PM
Here is the Acid Test: Today is Selection Sunday.
Q1. How many Scoopers will bother to watch the Selection Sunday broadcast?
Q2: Will the Marquette players, cheerleaders, and fans jam the Mug Rack today to watch Selection Sunday?
1. I'm watching.
2. Nope.
Keefe
I will be in the Mugrack with my "Give 'em Hell, Al" pin on. Come join me, I'm buying!!
Quote from: Goose on March 13, 2016, 02:33:17 PM
Keefe
I will be in the Mugrack with my "Give 'em Hell, Al" pin on. Come join me, I'm buying!!
Man, two Old China Hands swapping tall tales in the bosom of where it all started... That would be a great afternoon, Goose!
Quote from: Goose on March 13, 2016, 02:19:57 PM
More troubling to me is that I really do not see the talent in the program. Next year you have several guys that are mid to upper end D1 players and that is about it.
You don't see the talent in the program??? Wojo's first recruiting class had 5 guys. I'll discount HE because I assume your point is well he is leaving. But then we have Haanif, a guy who after his freshman year many are giving a good chance of becoming MU's all time leading scorer. You have a point guard who was probably the best freshman point we've had since D James. In the current class you have 2 signed both top 100 kids. If Marcus Howard signs that will be a top 35 PG. Add to that Rowsey, a kid who lead his D-1 team in scoring as a freshman. MU's problem at PG (which is the main thing that got us into this mess) will appear to be fixed. You seem to discount getting a rebounding 4 as a grad transfer. Let me ask you this. Who in their right mind is going to come to MU as long as HE is guaranteed 35+ minutes at that position. Once its for sure that HE is gone I would bet money that MU will get a grad transfer because the PT will be there for sure.
You guys have got to step away from the window. The glass is more than 1/2 full. My biggest question with Wojo is still his coaching but his ability to put talent on the team is already a proven yes. Remember we aren't even done with his second recruiting class
Quote from: Goose on March 13, 2016, 02:19:57 PM
Chico's
As you know some of us are old enough to remember a lot of coaches along the way. I really have zero problem on not making postseason if the trend is going the right way. I have stated many times that I do not share the optimism for next season. If Henry leaves I am not so sure we play .500 ball next season.
More troubling to me is that I really do not see the talent in the program. Next year you have several guys that are mid to upper end D1 players and that is about it. I am sorry but the thought of getting jacked up for transfer from nowhere does not do it for me. Buzz left the joint in shambles and that is not Wojo's fault. Unfortunately fixing that is his problem.
I have always felt you have to sometimes go backwards to move ahead. My fear is going backwards for three years and not being able to buck the trend. This opinion is not based on my feelings of the program four decades ago. I love that era and Al as much as anyone on here but that is simply very fond memories. I have felt for long time that the school takes the program and supporters for granted and might be taking a big gamble on that philosophy.
Again, I am not going anywhere. I love MU and the basketball program way too much to jump ship. That said, I can say that I have moved from frustrated to really not caring as much. If good things happen I will be excited and if they do not I probably will care a little bit less.
Fifty years ago was my Freshman year. Not in my wildest dreams did I think Al would bring Marquette to it "Golden Era" of basketball. Let's give Wojo a few more years. Seton Hall looked like a ship wreck this time last year and look where they are now. The problem we have had over the last few years is balance. We have had great guards but no bigs. Now we have bigs but lack guards and no one who can shoot consistently from the perimeter. Lastly, when was the last time we had a full contingent of 13 scholarship players, not including walk-ons that were given scholarships.
NotanAlum
Maybe we value talent from a different perspective. There is talent, just not enough of it.
MUWarrior
Different times than when Al was here. Far from giving up hope, simply do share the optimism others feel.
Quote from: Earl Tatum on March 13, 2016, 02:23:03 PM
Goose said it much better than I did. Agree with him. Been MU fan since Al's years.Talent isn't
there anymore.
That can be said across every school. College basketball has changed dramtically and for you older guys, I think you just refuse to accept it. The programs you speak of back in the day, kids were around 4 years, more scholarships kept kids at just 25 to 35 schools...that's all gone now.
Today's Kansas, UNC, UCLA, etc...none of the schools have the experienced talent that was around back in the day. If they get premiere players, they are gone within a year. Waiting for those days to happen again is a moot point. It doesn't mean I don't disagree with you guys, I really don't. I was lucky enough to watch John Wooden in person coaching. I just think folks need to accept the reality of how the world is today in college basketball. There is a strong argument that suggests not even going after 5 star players, because they won't be around. Focus on 3's and 4's, build your program from the experience angle.
Chico's
I am not talking talent level from forty years ago. Our talent level with HE was not top 75 this year. Without him, forget about it. Wojo is going to need to be a great coach in a hurry or he could be on a hot seat a year from now.
Quote from: keefe on March 13, 2016, 02:29:37 PM
Here is the Acid Test: Today is Selection Sunday.
Q1. How many Scoopers will bother to watch the Selection Sunday broadcast?
Q2: Will the Marquette players, cheerleaders, and fans jam the Mug Rack today to watch Selection Sunday?
I will....two of my alma maters won their league, so I want to see where they are going.
Quote from: Goose on March 13, 2016, 02:54:13 PM
Chico's
I am not talking talent level from forty years ago. Our talent level with HE was not top 75 this year. Without him, forget about it. Wojo is going to need to be a great coach in a hurry or he could be on a hot seat a year from now.
I'll wait to judge the talent after seeing them with a bit more seasoning. Freshmen thrown to the wolves is usually a recipe for disaster..there are rare exceptions, but even then there is a guiding force of experience...Novak with the three amigos, for example.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2016, 02:54:37 PM
I will....two of my alma maters won their league, so I want to see where they are going.
I have to confess that I have never actually watched that show. But I always loved watching the Youtubes of our guys jumping up when Marquette was called. Won't happen this year.
Quote from: Goose on March 13, 2016, 02:54:13 PM
Our talent level with HE was not top 75 this year.
I flat out think you are wrong (from any perspective). Our talent was well beyond top 75. it just happened to be YOUNG.
But I'm sure there were Seton Hall fans last year saying "These freshman are over rated, we really don't have much talent. I mean we just lost to Marquette by 20 and they finished in last place"
Give it time.
Keep in mind this was a program that had been to 8 straight NCAAs and 3 straight sweet 16s. Any comparison to KO or Dukiet is invalid. This program has established a level of excellence that wasn't present in the 80s and 90s. Crean and Buzz should be the comparison not KO and Dukiet. That's why 3 straight years of no postseason is unacceptable. I'm not blaming Wojo & I'm not blaming the new AD or prez. They haven't even been here 2 years. That said, there needs to be some accountability. As I posted on my Twitter feed, if this were a business and it tanked after 8 years of sustained success - there would be changes.
Patience? The counter argument: We've learned that coaches come and go when they want. Kids come and go when they want. Injuries happen. Recruits decide to go elsewhere. The ball bounces badly and you lose.
Lack of success festers. Kids being recruited today need to dip into 4+ year old archives to get excited about the MU program .. which means MU has burned through so much of the "program glow" the S16s and E8s gave off. Not all, but a lot.
MU had this rock solid program 5 years ago and a 3-4-5-6 year dry spell seemed, honestly, highly improbable. Ok, the OBE broke up? Fine, us, GTown, Nova are gonna dominate the NBE, year after year.
Now? Not even sure it's a coin flip we bust out of this slump, we're back to relying on catching a break.
So the OP is about patience. It's good people are impatient. You know what comes after that?
Apathy.
Quote from: KC_Warrior on March 13, 2016, 03:06:19 PM
As I posted on my Twitter feed, if this were a business and it tanked after 8 years of sustained success - there would be changes.
If that business had two different CEOs who resigned during those 8 years (including one who left the company in terrible shape when he left), the new CEO would be given a little more time than 2 years to turn things around, especially if he or she had to basically rebuild the business from scratch.
I have no problem with Coach Wojo and agree it will take a some years before we get an accurate read. However, all the elements appear to be in place for long, positive run.
I do not agree with folks that have second guessed Coach Wojo's plays/defence/schemes. Schemes do not win games, players do. He has shown a skill set, flexibility, and creativity that the previous two coaches did not. He also seems to recruit well, and knows exactly what type of player he wants.
What leaves me a bit perplexed is that the team was never able to build on its successful wins. The Warriors ended the season five and five. The last third of the season was one step forward, one step backwards (Think Georgetown win, Butler beatdown, St. John's win, Xavier beatdown.)
At times I had the impression while Wojo recruited a high level of talent, but in the end, this talent did not mix well on the floor. Was it individual player strength/weakness balance that failed to optimise team success?
At other times, I had the impression that Wojo was too intense and over-coached, putting too much pressure on the team. As result, were they so "tight", they would lose confidence when things did not go as planned and feared letting down their coach?
And, yes, the best thing that happens to freshmen is they become sophomores.
Weighed in its total, Marquette basketball is on track. Time will tell if it arrives on time at the right station.
Quote from: KC_Warrior on March 13, 2016, 03:06:19 PM
Keep in mind this was a program that had been to 8 straight NCAAs and 3 straight sweet 16s. Any comparison to KO or Dukiet is invalid. This program has established a level of excellence that wasn't present in the 80s and 90s. Crean and Buzz should be the comparison not KO and Dukiet. That's why 3 straight years of no postseason is unacceptable. I'm not blaming Wojo & I'm not blaming the new AD or prez. They haven't even been here 2 years. That said, there needs to be some accountability. As I posted on my Twitter feed, if this were a business and it tanked after 8 years of sustained success - there would be changes.
My point in bringing them up is when people say the program is struggling, or sucks, they have a weird baseline.
But if you are going to go with your line of thinking (which is fine), Wojo isn't coaching in the old Big East and all the positives that came with it. He also inherited a team that didn't make the NIT and had a lot of missing pieces.
Buzz, continued what Crean had started. So I don't think the comparisons to the previous years are necessarily fair, either....totally different contract, prestige, TV, and inheriting a team that simply wasn't constructed well.
Yes, patience but with improvement. Apathy happens when there are no signs of hope, no improvement. That was not the case this year. Improved from year 1 to year 2....pretty simple. Young guys coming back with a season under their belt.
Chico's
Agreed minor improvement in year two over year one. Year three is the problem from my perspective. Disappointed a tad with season but more that they did not take advantage of HE season a tad more. The more I think about it the more I am very worried about next season.
It feels like we dealt a body blow to our program around the time of the freak out about Hiroshima. I think the support is here to pull out of it and thankfully leadership has changed.
Hilltoppers has it right, I don't get the hand wringing about people having high expectations. It sure is better than apathy.
Next year is really important for Wojo.
Maybe this will help with the part you feel is perplexing. I've added the KenPom Power Rank next to the opponent keeping in mind that MU was 105 and if it was home, away or neutral
Quote from: UticaBusBarn on March 13, 2016, 03:17:52 PM
What leaves me a bit perplexed is that the team was never able to build on its successful wins. The Warriors ended the season five and five. The last third of the season was one step forward, one step backwards (Think Georgetown win 71,home, Butler beatdown 40,away, St. John's win 240,away, Xavier beatdown 15, neutral.)
Viewed that way the inconsistency just makes sense. We lost to 2 teams that were a lot better than we were. We beat one as expected and may have preformed a little better than predicted against GT even at home. Add to that young teams tend to be inconsistent.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 13, 2016, 03:37:12 PM
It feels like we dealt a body blow to our program around the time of the freak out about Hiroshima. I think the support is here to pull out of it and thankfully leadership has changed.
Hilltoppers has it right, I don't get the hand wringing about people having high expectations. It sure is better than apathy.
Next year is really important for Wojo.
Nothing wrong with high expectations, but rational thought should be applied, too. I know for fans that is tough.
My time at Marquette straddled the Majerus and Dukiet eras. This isn't anywhere near that bad. I have my concerns about Wojo. IMO, his success at MU will be determined by his ability to grow beyond his Duke roots and adapt to the Big East. But leaving that alone, this is what it looks like when a coach leaves and leaves the cupboard empty. It isn't a mystery. Some to think because it says 'Marquette' on the jersey, that we should be exempt from the rebuilding process. Myopic and narcissistic. Sustained excellence is tough. Legendary programs have down years. Syracuse, Kentucky, UCLA, Duke.... all have had seasons where they went to the NIT or worse. Right now, it is Marquette's turn in the barrel. See my signature.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2016, 03:59:42 PM
Nothing wrong with high expectations, but rational thought should be applied, too. I know for fans that is tough.
What about my post is irrational?
Quote from: NotAnAlum on March 13, 2016, 02:46:16 PM
You don't see the talent in the program??? Wojo's first recruiting class had 5 guys. I'll discount HE because I assume your point is well he is leaving. But then we have Haanif, a guy who after his freshman year many are giving a good chance of becoming MU's all time leading scorer. You have a point guard who was probably the best freshman point we've had since D James. In the current class you have 2 signed both top 100 kids. If Marcus Howard signs that will be a top 35 PG. Add to that Rowsey, a kid who lead his D-1 team in scoring as a freshman. MU's problem at PG (which is the main thing that got us into this mess) will appear to be fixed. You seem to discount getting a rebounding 4 as a grad transfer. Let me ask you this. Who in their right mind is going to come to MU as long as HE is guaranteed 35+ minutes at that position. Once its for sure that HE is gone I would bet money that MU will get a grad transfer because the PT will be there for sure.
You guys have got to step away from the window. The glass is more than 1/2 full. My biggest question with Wojo is still his coaching but his ability to put talent on the team is already a proven yes. Remember we aren't even done with his second recruiting class
Assuming HE leaves, there are some high quality players remaining, but not enough to be much more that a .500 BE team next season. We need some beef or our fellas will get abused again.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2016, 03:28:36 PM
My point in bringing them up is when people say the program is struggling, or sucks, they have a weird baseline.
But if you are going to go with your line of thinking (which is fine), Wojo isn't coaching in the old Big East and all the positives that came with it. He also inherited a team that didn't make the NIT and had a lot of missing pieces.
Buzz, continued what Crean had started. So I don't think the comparisons to the previous years are necessarily fair, either....totally different contract, prestige, TV, and inheriting a team that simply wasn't constructed well.
I think that's what's perplexing for some...you hit the nail on the head..it's NOT the same conference(it's MUCH easier), which with missing pieces or not, MU still should not have taken the steps backwards they have. In a weaker conference MU can't even finish top half, when in reality with the strength(or lack thereof) of this conference Vis a vis the old BE, MU should be running through it, ala Memphis in the old CUSA.
Where the program took a nosedive was the horrible decisions to hire Pilarsz and Larry...who were hired to get rid of Buzz. That's where the problem all started...those two never enter the picture, Buzz may still be here, and MU would be humming along.
I was the one that at the time said that administration wanted to make the program like SLU(hence Hiroshima)...3 years later..does it look much different than SLU's?? Larry got what he wanted...to destroy MU, now others are left to pick up the pieces and who knows when, or if it will ever be the same.
I love the fortune 500 / GE capital comparisons. Let's replace *everyone* in the company today, and see if it's just as profitable next year, or two years from now. Lol, you guys are delusional.
MU improved by +4 BE games this year, no doubt. But that comes with a note: We had a NBA lottery pick on our team. Who will be likely be gone next year. This year's excuse: We're rebuilding, we're young.
Selection Sunday 2017 is 365 days away. If we need an excuse as to why MU misses again, it's built in: Well, MU is rebuilding from losing Henry.
I apologize for the frustration. Selection Sunday = Valentines Day with no date.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 13, 2016, 04:24:48 PM
What about my post is irrational?
Nothing, I wasn't referencing you....sorry.
Quote from: muguru on March 13, 2016, 04:41:35 PM
I think that's what's perplexing for some...you hit the nail on the head..it's NOT the same conference(it's MUCH easier), which with missing pieces or not, MU still should not have taken the steps backwards they have. In a weaker conference MU can't even finish top half, when in reality with the strength(or lack thereof) of this conference Vis a vis the old BE, MU should be running through it, ala Memphis in the old CUSA.
Where the program took a nosedive was the horrible decisions to hire Pilarsz and Larry...who were hired to get rid of Buzz. That's where the problem all started...those two never enter the picture, Buzz may still be here, and MU would be humming along.
I was the one that at the time said that administration wanted to make the program like SLU(hence Hiroshima)...3 years later..does it look much different than SLU's?? Larry got what he wanted...to destroy MU, now others are left to pick up the pieces and who knows when, or if it will ever be the same.
That goes both ways. The tougher conference meant better RPI, easier to get in if you just went .500 AND easier to recruit and land major players.
You're kidding me if you think we are anywhere close to SLU. This is why I think you are so over the top. SLU is in the A-10, we are in the Big East. SLU is going the wrong way fast. Not the way we are going. I don't see the comparison at all.
I just hope we land some sort of PF so people can start being excited about how we increased our win total by 7, doubled our conference wins, and quadrupled our top 50 RPI wins despite having the 8th youngest roster in D1.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 13, 2016, 07:31:23 PM
I just hope we land some sort of PF so people can start being excited about how we increased our win total by 7, doubled our conference wins, and quadrupled our top 50 RPI wins despite having the 8th youngest roster in D1.
Only because of Henry who will be gone
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 13, 2016, 07:31:23 PM
I just hope we land some sort of PF so people can start being excited about how we increased our win total by 7, doubled our conference wins, and quadrupled our top 50 RPI wins despite having the 8th youngest roster in D1.
A good recruiter will pitch exactly that...the future promise, the potential, etc
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2016, 03:30:12 PM
Yes, patience but with improvement. Apathy happens when there are no signs of hope, no improvement. That was not the case this year. Improved from year 1 to year 2....pretty simple. Young guys coming back with a season under their belt.
Two years of underachievement however, compared to expectations.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on March 13, 2016, 05:16:31 PM
MU improved by +4 BE games this year, no doubt. But that comes with a note: We had a NBA lottery pick on our team. Who will be likely be gone next year. This year's excuse: We're rebuilding, we're young.
Selection Sunday 2017 is 365 days away. If we need an excuse as to why MU misses again, it's built in: Well, MU is rebuilding from losing Henry.
I apologize for the frustration. Selection Sunday = Valentines Day with no date.
Frustrated too. This team should have been at least an NIT team. Yes, they were young. Yes, we had a crap non-con schedule. Yes, the NIT had a all-time high number of automatic qualifiers.
Nevertheless, a better coach could have taken our talent, even though they are young, even despite the non-con, despite a limited number of at-large, and have received the NIT invite.
Not saying Wojo is a crap coach. But the coaching staff needs to up their game alongside the players.
Frustrated by 3 things:
1. Teams with less talent making the tournament in our conference (how many top 100 players does Butler have?)
2. Coaches who we could have had also making the tournament (Cuonzo)
3. The whole experience factor as an excuse. Cal's experience: 258; Seton Hall: 321. Us: 344. Those two in the tournament, us in nothing.
Need to learn to game the RPI like the PAC 12 did.
Quote from: statnik on March 13, 2016, 08:11:48 PM
Two years of underachievement however, compared to expectations.
Expectations grounded in fallacies. Many of us here told folks back in September how crazy people were to say NCAAs. We said NIT at best. Can't help it if people are delusional in their expectations.
Quote from: MUDPT on March 13, 2016, 09:05:15 PM
Frustrated by 3 things:
1. Teams with less talent making the tournament in our conference (how many top 100 players does Butler have?)
2. Coaches who we could have had also making the tournament (Cuonzo)
3. The whole experience factor as an excuse. Cal's experience: 258; Seton Hall: 321. Us: 344. Those two in the tournament, us in nothing.
Need to learn to game the RPI like the PAC 12 did.
1) Experience replaces talent often.
2) Are you going to be real and compare what Cuonzo walked into vs Wojo? Cuonzo took over a 21 win team that went to the 3rd round of the NIT. Wojo took over a team that went.....nowhere.
3) Look at what you just said on experience. Cal is 258 while MU is 344. Meaning, 98% of teams were more experienced than MU, while 73% of teams were more experienced than Cal's. Yes, it makes a difference. Lets also not forget that it comes down to actually plays, not just guys that sit on the bench. Seton Hall is led by a senior who has been to 3 NCAA tournaments. Please show me the senior that we have on our team that has played in even one NCAA tournament?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2016, 09:06:51 PM
Expectations grounded in fallacies. Many of us here told folks back in September how crazy people were to say NCAAs. We said NIT at best. Can't help it if people are delusional in their expectations.
Is Rte. 50 cleared yet?
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 13, 2016, 09:16:54 PM
Is Rte. 50 cleared yet?
Don't know....we've been at the resort since yesterday, got up here before the heavy stuff. Coming down very hard right now, but most of the chair lifts were closed today, so we went snow shoeing instead. Looking forward to the next three days. Tonight, jacuzzi, drinking, maybe a movie.
Chains required.....pretty nasty out there. http://newtoreno.com/ca-us50-webcams-twin-bridges.htm
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2016, 09:06:51 PM
Expectations grounded in fallacies. Many of us here told folks back in September how crazy people were to say NCAAs. We said NIT at best. Can't help it if people are delusional in their expectations.
Just what you said in 2009-10. We ended up with a 6 seed.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2016, 01:55:52 PM
I keep hearing this craziness about sucking, or 3 years no post season. First of all, no one knows the latter yet, so let's wait a few hours.
Secondly, some of you guys must be in their 20's or 30's....I can't believe anyone in their 40's has already forgotten about Dukiet and O'Neill's first few years. It took KO 4 years to go to any post season tournament. Wojo is in year two and the team improved from the first year to the second. We'll see what happens next year.
Good recruits coming in, players understanding the style he wants to play..this is why you give a coach 4 or 5 years. Some of this knee jerk stuff....give it a rest. No way we should have missed all the post season Buzz's last year, but we did..he left...his guys transferred or didn't come, what was left wasn't the right pieces. So we've had a coach have to take what he has and try to get his guys into the mix, that takes time if you aren't cutting corners, cheating, etc. Patience.
This is the first and ONLY time since 1963-66 that MU has missed three consecutive postseasons.
No additional perspective is necessary.
Quote from: MUFlutieEffect on March 13, 2016, 09:36:23 PM
This is the first and ONLY time since 1963-66 that MU has missed three consecutive postseasons.
No additional perspective is necessary.
Likely by choice...I suspect if we wanted in to one of the other tournaments, we could have got in. You can thank Bumstead and how he left the program. Fortunately we are on the way up, despite the hand left to his successor.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2016, 09:38:21 PM
Likely by choice...I suspect if we wanted in to one of the other tournaments, we could have got in. You can thank Bumstead and how he left the program. Fortunately we are on the way up, despite the hand left to his successor.
Perhaps skipped the Vegas 16 "by choice," but it's irrelevant. As far as postseason appearances are concerned, this is a 50-year low, and I'm not seeing any way around that.
Quote from: MUFlutieEffect on March 13, 2016, 09:43:58 PM
Perhaps skipped the Vegas 16 "by choice," but it's irrelevant. As far as postseason appearances are concerned, this is a 50-year low, and I'm not seeing any way around that.
Again, thank Bumstead.
Win or lose, I love my teams. This team gave us some exciting moments this season (remember the first Providence win?). They also gave us some extreme lows -- like the Iowa and Butler losses. The team worked their butts off and came up short. But I have to be encouraged by the forward progress of this season.
As a contrast, consider the Richard Pitino era at Minnesota. In his first year, he took a bunch of Tubby's players who had gone to the round of 32 the previous year and won the the NIT. Year 2, he had 6 wins in the B1G and an overall 18-15 record. This year, they had 2 wins in the B1G and were 8-23 overall. In the meantime, the program has been beset with discipline problems (including the suspension of three guards at the end of this season, and unexplained and sudden dismissal of a senior captain and the expulsion of a Pitino recruit for assault) and difficult recruiting (Jarvis Johnson not being cleared to play). Now we Gopher fans are praying that Coffey doesn't ask for his release and Murphy doesn't decide to transfer and that both will stick around when Pitino inevitably is let go next year. This, people, is what a program that's imploding under a new coach looks like. Yet, I'm still a fan and season ticket holder. I go to every game I'm in town for.
That's my perspective. I believe Marquette has a bright future and will regain basketball greatness. I prefer to be positive about a bunch of 18- 22 year olds who want to represent my schools playing basketball. I'm already looking forward to next season. We'll see what we can do.
Quote from: MomofMUltiples on March 13, 2016, 09:47:48 PM
As a contrast, consider the Richard Pitino era at Minnesota.
Hey, I'm all for positivity, but there's a difference between "glass is half-full" and really reaching to find something to be happy about.
Seems like your claim is "hey, some schools are worse than us!"
Those same schools make a FRACTION of the investment in hoops that Marquette makes and can't hold a flame to MU Basketball's history. I'd hardly consider beating the Gophers something to get excited about.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2016, 09:13:56 PM
1) Experience replaces talent often.
2) Are you going to be real and compare what Cuonzo walked into vs Wojo? Cuonzo took over a 21 win team that went to the 3rd round of the NIT. Wojo took over a team that went.....nowhere.
3) Look at what you just said on experience. Cal is 258 while MU is 344. Meaning, 98% of teams were more experienced than MU, while 73% of teams were more experienced than Cal's. Yes, it makes a difference. Lets also not forget that it comes down to actually plays, not just guys that sit on the bench. Seton Hall is led by a senior who has been to 3 NCAA tournaments. Please show me the senior that we have on our team that has played in even one NCAA tournament?
1. So we are sold on Wojo as a great recruiter, but we also have to wait for all of his top 100 recruits to be what junior, seniors? When? Why not just have a solid X and O's coach kind of like, say Butler?
2. Cal was 64 in Pomeroy in 2014. MU was 76, HUGE difference. In fact Cal was rated lower than us last year, but somehow flew by us this year.
3. Sorry, do you really think Derrick Gordon is Seton Hall's leader? He plays 58% of their minutes, that's less than any of their starters. I have no idea what kind of leader he is in the locker room, but his play on the court is not in any way the main reason that Seton Hall is where they are. Providence is 322 in experience by the way.
I think we all have the right to be frustrated.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2016, 01:55:52 PM
I keep hearing this craziness about sucking, or 3 years no post season. First of all, no one knows the latter yet, so let's wait a few hours.
Secondly, some of you guys must be in their 20's or 30's....I can't believe anyone in their 40's has already forgotten about Dukiet and O'Neill's first few years. It took KO 4 years to go to any post season tournament. Wojo is in year two and the team improved from the first year to the second. We'll see what happens next year.
Good recruits coming in, players understanding the style he wants to play..this is why you give a coach 4 or 5 years. Some of this knee jerk stuff....give it a rest. No way we should have missed all the post season Buzz's last year, but we did..he left...his guys transferred or didn't come, what was left wasn't the right pieces. So we've had a coach have to take what he has and try to get his guys into the mix, that takes time if you aren't cutting corners, cheating, etc. Patience.
Kevin O'Neill's first MU team went to the NIT. His next two missed the postseason and then he finished with two trips to the NCAAs.
Quote from: MUFlutieEffect on March 13, 2016, 09:52:27 PM
Seems like your claim is "hey, some schools are worse than us!"
Not really. My point is that Marquette's rebuilding is going in the right direction. There are folks on here who believe that only a postseason appearance (or only the NCAAs) denote success in this program. I understand your disappointment. I choose to look at other factors, and put a lot of stock in hope. There's always another season, and there are still moves for Wojo to make this spring. And so, I put this season to bed. We'll get'em next year.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2016, 09:44:34 PM
Again, thank Bumstead.
Bumstead took over at a worse situation and is in the post-season. Cuonzo took over a tough situation and is a 4 seed in the Big Dance. When exactly is Wojo on the clock? Enough of the deflections.
Here is a stat for you: Wojo has 15 home losses in two years, Buzz had 15 home losses in six seasons. Last time MU had 15 or more losses over two seasons was 1964-65. Think about that.
What other news is coming?
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 13, 2016, 10:37:21 PM
Bumstead took over at a worse situation and is in the post-season. Cuonzo took over a tough situation and is a 4 seed in the Big Dance. When exactly is Wojo on the clock? Enough of the deflections.
Here is a stat for you: Wojo has 15 home losses in two years, Buzz had 15 home losses in six seasons. Last time MU had 15 or more losses over two seasons was 1964-65. Think about that.
What other news is coming?
Well said Dr...it's the home losses that are the most maddening...It wasn't that long ago the BC was regarded as one of the toughest places to play...TC's teams almost NEVER lost at home, and Buzz and TC's teams, there was one thing that that stood out with them...it seemed like no matter how big they got down, they would almost always get there way back into it, maybe not had enough to pull it out, but got within striking distance. We havent seen much of that with Wojo's teams yet.
Quote from: MUDPT on March 13, 2016, 09:05:15 PM
3. The whole experience factor as an excuse. Seton Hall: 321. Us: 344.
I think you need to consider the calculations in a... deeper... manner.
MU had freshman play about 45-46% of its minutes.
Seton Hall? Around 11%.
Sure, we had a couple of juniors - including Luke who had never played a full season - but this team relied heavily on freshmen. Freshmen such as Traci and Hanny who had poor turnover rates - something that hurt us a lot this year.
Quote from: muguru on March 13, 2016, 10:45:55 PM
Well said Dr...it's the home losses that are the most maddening...It wasn't that long ago the BC was regarded as one of the toughest places to play...TC's teams almost NEVER lost at home, and Buzz and TC's teams, there was one thing that that stood out with them...it seemed like no matter how big they got down, they would almost always get there way back into it, maybe not had enough to pull it out, but got within striking distance. We havent seen much of that with Wojo's teams yet.
Home games suck now. They aren't exciting anymore. Place is a morgue.
Buzzs guys were so easy to cheer for. That's just being honest. They played tough D and always played with a chip on their shoulder. Always got the crowd going and their underdog stories of how they made it to MU was always cool. That's what made it a tough place to play.
We don't recruit guys that have that chip on their shoulder anymore. If there was one it was quickly brushed off and vacuumed up as soon as wojo arrived. More crew cuts less dreads. Like Larry envisioned.
I feel like MU is stuck in college basketball hell right now. The program is by no means awful, but I don't know where they go in the next two years.
With HE gone, is MU going to play a bad non league schedule again to round the team into some confidence? It's frustrating and fleeting to have a lottery pick on the roster and have the season go nowhere. MU doesn't get the caliber recruit of HE regularly, and his one year here will go down as non-descript.
Frustrating...MU is a great basketball school, it's very tough this time of year not seeing them in the field of 68.
Quote from: KenoshaWarrior on March 13, 2016, 07:52:30 PM
Only because of Henry who will be gone
No, not only because of Henry. Henry was the biggest piece but not the only piece. As far as anyone knows, we are only losing one player (and that's not even for sure). Yes he's our best player, but he's only one. I understand the fear that we will be too small to compete next season, but overall our team will be better next season than it was this season. Again, assuming no other major defections.
Quote from: MUDPT on March 13, 2016, 09:55:06 PM
1. So we are sold on Wojo as a great recruiter, but we also have to wait for all of his top 100 recruits to be what junior, seniors? When? Why not just have a solid X and O's coach kind of like, say Butler?
2. Cal was 64 in Pomeroy in 2014. MU was 76, HUGE difference. In fact Cal was rated lower than us last year, but somehow flew by us this year.
3. Sorry, do you really think Derrick Gordon is Seton Hall's leader? He plays 58% of their minutes, that's less than any of their starters. I have no idea what kind of leader he is in the locker room, but his play on the court is not in any way the main reason that Seton Hall is where they are. Providence is 322 in experience by the way.
I think we all have the right to be frustrated.
1) No, I don't think you have to wait until they are juniors and seniors, but more than just freshmen
2) That Cal team played 3 post season games in the NIT. MU played 0. That is a HUGE difference. A post season team earning post season experience vs a team that earned none.
3) Again, who played the minutes. MU's youngsters played close to half the minutes. Seton Hall's, not even close.
Quote from: Norm on March 13, 2016, 10:03:45 PM
Kevin O'Neill's first MU team went to the NIT. His next two missed the postseason and then he finished with two trips to the NCAAs.
You're right, I forgot...against Penn State or someone. Can't remember....I should, I was a student at the time and interning for the department. I'm getting old.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2016, 11:50:55 PM
1) No, I don't think you have to wait until they are juniors and seniors, but more than just freshmen
2) That Cal team played 3 post season games in the NIT. MU played 0. That is a HUGE difference. A post season team earning post season experience vs a team that earned none.
3) Again, who played the minutes. MU's youngsters played close to half the minutes. Seton Hall's, not even close.
Exactly. My issue that is that everyone complaining seems to be ignoring that last year we finished the year with 7 scholarship players and finished tied for last in the Big East. It was progress. If we take a step back next year, then there is cause for concern. But we clearly progressed from last year to this year and throughout the season.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 13, 2016, 10:37:21 PM
Bumstead took over at a worse situation and is in the post-season. Cuonzo took over a tough situation and is a 4 seed in the Big Dance. When exactly is Wojo on the clock? Enough of the deflections.
Here is a stat for you: Wojo has 15 home losses in two years, Buzz had 15 home losses in six seasons. Last time MU had 15 or more losses over two seasons was 1964-65. Think about that.
What other news is coming?
Do you guys even pay attention to what you write? I know a lot of you are in the fetal position right now, but most of you (especially you Blackheart) are smarter than this.
Both (Va Tech and Cal) of them had much more experienced teams than we did. Cal has an experienced team of juniors and seniors, I don't know how that slipped your mind. What I wouldn't do for a solid, senior point guard
CalTryone Wallace, leading scorer and their Point Guard....a senior
Jordan Matthews, 3rd leading scorer...a junior
Jabari Bird, 5th leading scorer....a junior
First two guys off the bench....junior and redshirt sophomore.
Va Tech...same thingZach Leday....top scorer....Transfer Junior from South Florida
Seth Allen....2nd leading scorer....Transfer Junior from Maryland
Justin Bibbs....3rd leading scorer...Sophomore
They played freshmen, but their top three guys had experience, including two that played at other schools and transferred to VaTech and sat out an extra year to get more experience.
That's wonderful about Buzz's home losses....Buzz walked into a great gig at Marquette, Wojo did not....ironically, because of how Wojo left it for him.
Quote from: muguru on March 13, 2016, 10:45:55 PM
Well said Dr...it's the home losses that are the most maddening...It wasn't that long ago the BC was regarded as one of the toughest places to play...TC's teams almost NEVER lost at home, and Buzz and TC's teams, there was one thing that that stood out with them...it seemed like no matter how big they got down, they would almost always get there way back into it, maybe not had enough to pull it out, but got within striking distance. We havent seen much of that with Wojo's teams yet.
I agree, we will have to get better at defending home court....but I'd also remind you that our first two years with Crean at home we weren't that great either. It took time, to get his guys, etc. So why, after only ONE YEAR of recruits from the current coach are you guys acting like he's had 3 or 4 years? He hasn't. He came in with guys not honoring their commitments, later more transferred out, what the hell do you guys expect? Good Lord.
Waaah waaah waaah ... oh poor us!
Quote from: NotAnAlum on March 13, 2016, 03:53:38 PM
Maybe this will help with the part you feel is perplexing. I've added the KenPom Power Rank next to the opponent keeping in mind that MU was 105 and if it was home, away or neutral
Viewed that way the inconsistency just makes sense. We lost to 2 teams that were a lot better than we were. We beat one as expected and may have preformed a little better than predicted against GT even at home. Add to that young teams tend to be inconsistent.
Thank you for pointing this out. I think we agree, as my point was the Warriors got a beatdown well beyond the spread.
To say it in another way, Marquette did not appear to consistently play with an edge ... except, of course, for "Mad Dog" Carter. Even JJJ, as well as he played down the stretch, suffered from moments when he seemed to simply fade out.
The underlying question is, Why? Over coaching? Individual player skill set? Chemistry? Freshmen? I think we will know a great deal more when we read the next chapter of the "Wojo and Warriors" novel in 2016-17.
Quote from: MUDish on March 13, 2016, 11:06:17 PM
I feel like MU is stuck in college basketball hell right now. The program is by no means awful, but I don't know where they go in the next two years.
With HE gone, is MU going to play a bad non league schedule again to round the team into some confidence? It's frustrating and fleeting to have a lottery pick on the roster and have the season go nowhere. MU doesn't get the caliber recruit of HE regularly, and his one year here will go down as non-descript.
Frustrating...MU is a great basketball school, it's very tough this time of year not seeing them in the field of 68.
I feel this. My logic brain is in an epic struggle with my fan brain. I know we are young but I really don't want to hear that excuse. I think we had years of a really great run and just don't appreciate how bad things in the program were. I don't want to settle for the NIT, yet would have been thrilled if we got in. I see flashes of real talent on this team but the pieces don't seem to play well together. I guess I have to placate fan brain by placing hopes on the future.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2016, 11:50:55 PM
1) No, I don't think you have to wait until they are juniors and seniors, but more than just freshmen
2) That Cal team played 3 post season games in the NIT. MU played 0. That is a HUGE difference. A post season team earning post season experience vs a team that earned none.
3) Again, who played the minutes. MU's youngsters played close to half the minutes. Seton Hall's, not even close.
So are you saying that youngsters are sophomores or junior/seniors? Seton Hall's minutes were played by freshmen and sophomores except for Gordon. And I guess that means we have no excuses next year to miss the tournament. Our minutes will come from 2 seniors, 2 juniors and 2 sophomores (possibly 4 sophomores and another senior). And if experience is the only thing that matters, maybe we should stop recruiting players like HE. After all, he will be gone after this year and won't get to be a sophomore or junior or senior, which is all that matters.
I agree with JayBee on the experience with the turnovers. There were a lot of points this season, I thought #12 would have been a better PG option, except for the whole FT situation.
As for Cal, we brought back a ton after the E8 run and fell flat on our face. What happened then?
Quote from: muguru on March 13, 2016, 04:41:35 PM
when in reality with the strength(or lack thereof) of this conference Vis a vis the old BE, MU should be running through it, ala Memphis in the old CUSA.
Marquette should be "running through" undefeated a conference with two top 5 teams and a couple of other top 20 teams? Really?
Seton Hall is the only reference that matters in my opinion. They started almost all (if not entirely all for some games) freshman last and suffered the kind of beat downs we got this year. Heck, WE delivered one of those beat downs in the first round of the BET. Look where they are now. Patience people, patience. Be happy we play in a league that turns boys into men faster than most. 1 year into the process of building a new system and recruiting the type of players that fit the system is not the time to be drawing any conclusions or passing any judgement. I'm as disappointed as anybody but college ball is more competitive now than it's ever been.
Our guys will improve and hopefully some holes will be plugged once HE situation is decided
As for coaching. Coaches don't commit 16 turnovers in a game
Quote from: muguru on March 13, 2016, 04:41:35 PM
MU should be running through it, ala Memphis in the old CUSA.
I question how much you know about basketball when you make this absurd comment.
Quote from: MUDPT on March 14, 2016, 09:11:26 AM
So are you saying that youngsters are sophomores or junior/seniors? Seton Hall's minutes were played by freshmen and sophomores except for Gordon. And I guess that means we have no excuses next year to miss the tournament. Our minutes will come from 2 seniors, 2 juniors and 2 sophomores (possibly 4 sophomores and another senior). And if experience is the only thing that matters, maybe we should stop recruiting players like HE. After all, he will be gone after this year and won't get to be a sophomore or junior or senior, which is all that matters.
I agree with JayBee on the experience with the turnovers. There were a lot of points this season, I thought #12 would have been a better PG option, except for the whole FT situation.
As for Cal, we brought back a ton after the E8 run and fell flat on our face. What happened then?
In reverse order.....brought back a ton after the Elite 8 run? I don't know, ask Buzz Williams why we landed flat on our face. To me, it all started when Vander Blue made a really stupid decision, but whatever.
Do you watch the guys in practice every day or do the coaches? I suspect the coaches do and determine who will be best in the turnover department. Unfortunately, with young guys, turnovers happen and it may just be the lesser of two evils.
On the minutes, you keep comparing apples to oranges, and I don't know why.
Marquette's minutes this year by FRESHMEN was 48% of all minutes.
Seton Hall's minutes this year by FRESHMEN was 7.7% of all minutes.
So I ask you, why do you continue to make absurd comparisons?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2016, 12:02:40 AM
Va Tech...same thing
Zach Leday....top scorer....Transfer Junior from South Florida
Seth Allen....2nd leading scorer....Transfer Junior from Maryland
Justin Bibbs....3rd leading scorer...Sophomore
They played freshmen, but their top three guys had experience, including two that played at other schools and transferred to VaTech and sat out an extra year to get more experience.
None of those guys were at Virginia Tech when Buzz arrived. I don't think any of Tech's contributors were in Blacksburg when Buzz arrived. This year Wojo had two top 100 (Luke and Duane) and one top 30 (JJJ) player left from the Buzz regime.
Buzz took over a much worse program and a much barer cupboard than Wojo. And his team was 41 slots higher than us in Pomeroy and are in the postseason. Any MU fan who's not at least a little disappointed is in denial.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 14, 2016, 10:55:43 AM
None of those guys were at Virginia Tech when Buzz arrived. I don't think any of Tech's contributors were in Blacksburg when Buzz arrived. This year Wojo had two top 100 (Luke and Duane) and one top 30 (JJJ) player left from the Buzz regime.
Buzz took over a much worse program and a much barer cupboard than Wojo. And his team was 41 slots higher than us in Pomeroy and are in the postseason. Any MU fan who's not at least a little disappointed is in denial.
There is no doubt that Buzz is a better coach than Wojo right now. And I have little doubt that if Buzz had stayed, the 13-14 season would have been the outlier and MU would be back where we all want it to be. But that ship has sailed. And when it sailed the program hit an iceberg. So, disappointed, yes, but not ready to throw Wojo overboard.
Quote from: tower912 on March 14, 2016, 11:03:46 AM
There is no doubt that Buzz is a better coach than Wojo right now. And I have little doubt that if Buzz had stayed, the 13-14 season would have been the outlier and MU would be back where we all want it to be. But that ship has sailed. And when it sailed the program hit an iceberg. So, disappointed, yes, but not ready to throw Wojo overboard.
Buzz goes for the quick fix, that's fine...that's his MO. Transfers, JUCOs, etc. He got two his first year, and that paid off very well for him this year having two guys that have been in college basketball for three years (two years playing, a third year practicing during transfer period).
MU is taking the long term, consistent approach. It is a LOT easier to coach guys that have multiple years under their belts, more mature, stronger bodies, etc. That's what Buzz has always done. Buzz with high school players turned college freshmen....not so great.
So that's the question I ask, is Buzz, the coach of college freshmen that good...better than Wojo? Based on what? What we saw at MU certainly isn't the case with Buzz and young players. The difference here is MU isn't going for massive quick fix. I have no doubt we will plug some holes where we can with transfers, JUCO, etc, but that's not the bread and butter of this team or program moving forward.
Buzz had the option of not having to play freshmen before they were ready. Many of those freshmen who didn't play resented it and left before they could be developed. Wojo didn't have that option. Blue and Gardner sure developed OK. And a really solid 5 year run with one off year is not a quick fix. Better winning percentage, more NCAA wins than his predecessor in 3 fewer years. You continue to think (because it was Buzz) that the issues that happened under his watch were systemic. I view them as episodic, just as I viewed the issues that occurred at Marquette under Crean's watch.
Quote from: tower912 on March 14, 2016, 11:14:56 AM
Buzz had the option of not having to play freshmen before they were ready. Many of those freshmen who didn't play resented it and left before they could be developed. Wojo didn't have that option. Blue and Gardner sure developed OK. And a really solid 5 year run with one off year is not a quick fix. Better winning percentage, more NCAA wins than his predecessor in 3 fewer years.
Blue and Gardner developed with other older guys around them to take off the load. Wojo has had no such luxury. Buzz with high school kids is a lot more suspect than he was with ready made players, I don't think you can deny this. Buzz inheriting future NBA players is also pretty good.
We'll see how the freshmen at MU develop over the next number of years, but Buzz was always a better coach with guys that are ready made bodies, etc. Wojo isn't playing the quick fix game, so the comparisons seem way off base to me.
Buzz and Wojo are apples and oranges. Not really sure why it even is a point of discussion. Good Buzz was very good and the Buzz with moving van packed in December was not very good...actually terrible. Chico's can play the devil's advocate on twenty threads if he cares to and that is fine. I think biggest thing he is missing is that HE was our best freshman and not having him around will cause a ripple affect next season.
IMO I do not think we have nearly enough talent coming back next year to be optimistic about. Even with HE the team had to work very hard for every basket in the half court offense. Wojo can take the methodical approach to the rebuild and hope it works. In addition, I hope he can create some excitement level to keep the fans and students on board. To me, 3-5 in toilet means nothing if next 15 are good, fun competitive basketball. At this point I am not sure on the latter happening.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 13, 2016, 09:16:54 PM
Is Rte. 50 cleared yet?
50 to 80mph winds on the mountain today, really bad....many of the chairs shut down, so I'm opting for a massage, a sushi making class with my daughter, probably some gambling on the Nevada side....put some money down on my Jayhawks and Hoosiers just for fun.
I'll keep you posted.
EDIT: Also adding a Bloody Mary bar today for my wife and I....a class on making the best bloody mary's....I'll keep you posted
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 14, 2016, 10:55:43 AM
None of those guys were at Virginia Tech when Buzz arrived. I don't think any of Tech's contributors were in Blacksburg when Buzz arrived. This year Wojo had two top 100 (Luke and Duane) and one top 30 (JJJ) player left from the Buzz regime.
Buzz took over a much worse program and a much barer cupboard than Wojo. And his team was 41 slots higher than us in Pomeroy and are in the postseason. Any MU fan who's not at least a little disappointed is in denial.
Agreed. Doesn't mean we have to hate on Wojo. I really have no dog in the Buzz sucks/Crean sucks fight but we must accept the coaching staff needs to improve as they had the players to get to the NIT ala Virginia Tech this year.
Quote from: Goose on March 14, 2016, 11:42:21 AM
Buzz and Wojo are apples and oranges. Not really sure why it even is a point of discussion. Good Buzz was very good and the Buzz with moving van packed in December was not very good...actually terrible. Chico's can play the devil's advocate on twenty threads if he cares to and that is fine. I think biggest thing he is missing is that HE was our best freshman and not having him around will cause a ripple affect next season.
IMO I do not think we have nearly enough talent coming back next year to be optimistic about. Even with HE the team had to work very hard for every basket in the half court offense. Wojo can take the methodical approach to the rebuild and hope it works. In addition, I hope he can create some excitement level to keep the fans and students on board. To me, 3-5 in toilet means nothing if next 15 are good, fun competitive basketball. At this point I am not sure on the latter happening.
Maybe it will, maybe it won't. He took too many poor outside shots, in my opinion and at times we let him due too much. He's a wonderful talent, we'll see if he goes...assuming he does, then other guys can blossom. Teams lose their best player all the time, and do just fine.
The bigger point that I think so many of you are missing is what our new coach inherited and what he has to play with. That's going to take time. No senior leadership on this team, freshmen playing almost half the minutes....that means some rough outings, tired guys (freshmen aren't used to playing this much), and up and down results. I'm going for the glass half full, and trying to follow the data as it stands. Not fluffy data like RSCI rankings which mean nothing.