Our guards.
TC ranks 6th in the BE for A/T, 3rd in steals as a freshman.
JJJ can dominate for stretches, as the season wore on the length of those stretches increased.
HC keep up the confidence in his game, and he will be awesome.
Du is extremely talented, he will be as good as he wants.
Down low
Fish... Stay out of foul trouble, I'm happy
Heldt, made some great strides, looking forward to his Jr year.
Sandy, needs to find a way to be an offensive factor again. Others took some leaps past him, but he has the talent to do more.
I like what we got.
http://www.bigeast.com/documents/2015/11/15/1516MBBStats.pdf
Lots of open questions still
PG play.
Does someone leave....grad transfer, regular transfer
HE
DW has to get better at decision making, but has talent
Sandy...don't know, just don't know
Need a PF its that simple.
Howard and at least 1 Big would make us pretty damn good.
Quote from: T-Bone on March 10, 2016, 11:22:26 PM
Our guards.
TC ranks 6th in the BE for A/T, 3rd in steals as a freshman.
JJJ can dominate for stretches, as the season wore on the length of those stretches increased.
HC keep up the confidence in his game, and he will be awesome.
Du is extremely talented, he will be as good as he wants.
Down low
Fish... Stay out of foul trouble, I'm happy
Heldt, made some great strides, looking forward to his Jr year.
Sandy, needs to find a way to be an offensive factor again. Others took some leaps past him, but he has the talent to do more.
I like what we got.
http://www.bigeast.com/documents/2015/11/15/1516MBBStats.pdf
Duane needs to shoot better or else his minutes will be down. Rowsey is a better shooter, Hauser, JJJ, and Cohen are better shooters as well. Worst shooting % among the 7 guys in the rotation and 2nd worst 3-point shooter (Fischer took no 3-pointers).
You never knew what Duane's shot would look like. Release changed, arc changed. No repeatable consistency at all. Doesn't bode well for next year, but hopefully he puts in the necessary work.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 10, 2016, 11:24:41 PM
Sandy...don't know, just don't know
I'm going to chalk this one up to lack of self confidence. He was clearly trying out some new offensive tools, but because he never regressed back to his natural style of play — cherry picking from the 3pt line — he never regained confidence in his skills. Just a thought.
I think Carter will take a huge step up next year.
Very bullish on next season. Assuming no major defections besides HE, we will be a bubble team. Assuming no major defections besides HE and we get Markus Howard, we will be a very good bubble team. Assuming no major defections besides HE and we get Markus Howard and we get an impact player at the PF position....watch out.
Oh, and if HE stays, top 20 easy.
Wojo sees something in Sandy. That's why he got the minutes he did.
Jajuan was maddeningly inconsistent his first two years but has really stepped it up this year. I'm not ready to close the book on Sandy, but he certainly does look out of sorts.
Next year will be interesting. We need another big, honestly could use another even if Henry were to stay. Fully expecting he'll be gone and Howard will be here, so the staff needs to find a ready to play big man.
Scheme will be interesting. If our core rotation after Luke is JJ, Duane, Cheatham, Rowsey, Sandy, Traci, and Wally, that's a very small team. Tough to play man against 6'7" and bigger wings and forwards when you can't really contest their shots. Might need more zone to protect Luke. Offensively, however, we would be very quick and very good on the perimeter.
Quote from: T-Bone on March 10, 2016, 11:22:26 PM
Our guards.
TC ranks 6th in the BE for A/T, 3rd in steals as a freshman.
JJJ can dominate for stretches, as the season wore on the length of those stretches increased.
HC keep up the confidence in his game, and he will be awesome.
Du is extremely talented, he will be as good as he wants.
Down low
Fish... Stay out of foul trouble, I'm happy
Heldt, made some great strides, looking forward to his Jr year.
Sandy, needs to find a way to be an offensive factor again. Others took some leaps past him, but he has the talent to do more.
I like what we got.
http://www.bigeast.com/documents/2015/11/15/1516MBBStats.pdf
Dreaming is free.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on March 10, 2016, 11:26:48 PM
Need a PF its that simple.
Howard and at least 1 Big would make us pretty damn good.
Yes, that would be the dream scenario and I am sure the staff knows that Fischer experiences foul trouble and with Heldt the only bigman left, well....
Last night when Henry fouled out, leaving JJJ and Cohen up front, they are man handled by Reynolds and Farr. It was really not fun to watch those two thin kids against grown men.
One question I have. Is Anim that bad, because even with the foul issues experienced, Heldt being out, he basically saw no playing time. Since BE play, Anim played a total of 30 minutes in 22 games. Even with Cohen having a bad BE season, Anim didn't see the floor. Is Cohen that much better than Anim?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 11, 2016, 12:14:04 AM
Oh, and if HE stays, top 20 easy.
Why? Even in a dream scenario where HE stays, what makes you think this is a top 20 team? Bubble team, sure. But we haven't done anything to indicate that even with a year under our belt, we're capable of consistently beating quality, top 25 opponents. I'm not saying it wouldn't happen, I'm only saying that top 20 "easy" is not based on the evidence.
Quote from: Babybluejeans on March 11, 2016, 07:10:52 AM
Why? Even in a dream scenario where HE stays, what makes you think this is a top 20 team? Bubble team, sure. But we haven't done anything to indicate that even with a year under our belt, we're capable of consistently beating quality, top 25 opponents. I'm not saying it wouldn't happen, I'm only saying that top 20 "easy" is not based on the evidence.
We've currently got 5 wins over Top 50 KenPom opponents and were very competitive with at least 3 more of those games.
Quote from: Bricky on March 10, 2016, 11:47:20 PM
I'm going to chalk this one up to lack of self confidence. He was clearly trying out some new offensive tools, but because he never regressed back to his natural style of play — cherry picking from the 3pt line — he never regained confidence in his skills. Just a thought.
He may have a confidence issue, but his biggest problem is that he moves two speeds slower than everyone else. He takes forever to get his 3 point shot off, and when you're not playing cupcakes getting that time is more difficult.
As for the team next year, we are losing our best player by far, and we have no one to replace him. We are a pretty bad rebounding team with Henry, what are we going to be without him? As of now, we don't have a single real PF on the roster for the 2016-17 season, good, bad or otherwise. I can't see us being an NCAA team without one of those (and frankly, how many good teams only have one of those?). I would be a lot more optimistic if we land a PF capable of big minutes immediately. I do very much like the quality we have assembled at the 2/3 positions, and Carter gets better every day at PG. There are pieces of a good team here, but not enough quality size, particularly since our guards are not very good defenders.
I agree with CT. We need a rebounding PF bad. But I know Wojo knows that and think he'll address it.
I suppose the very good news is that pretty much everything else seems to be NCAA tourney worthy.
2/3 play by Haani, JjJ and Duane. NCAA worthy. Check.
PG. Traci, Andrew and maybe Markus. NCAA worthy. Check.
C. Luke backed up by Matty. Check.
Now perhaps Sacar, Wally and/or Sandy can add enough muscle to provide some reasonable time at #4 but I have my doubts that the combination of those 3 is enough.
Quote from: Babybluejeans on March 11, 2016, 07:10:52 AM
Why? Even in a dream scenario where HE stays, what makes you think this is a top 20 team? Bubble team, sure. But we haven't done anything to indicate that even with a year under our belt, we're capable of consistently beating quality, top 25 opponents. I'm not saying it wouldn't happen, I'm only saying that top 20 "easy" is not based on the evidence.
Because we will return 99.9% of our production (by far biggest factor in determining off-season improvement), add an impact guard (potentially two if Howard commits), add a top 100 freshmen wing, and the biggest jump in production tends to be between freshmen and sophomore year.
We seem to really forget that teams do most of their development in the off-season.
I don't see what others see in Traci Carter. He'd maybe see the floor for 2 other teams in conference. He can't shoot, not a great ball handler and average perimeter defender. He hustles, but he consistently gets beat off the dribble. I like how hard he plays, other teammates could learn from him and Wally. This team is extremely soft. Duane, JJJ, Fish and Cohen are soft. I'm wondering who will grab a rebound next season. Until Wojo recruits some toughness, I see another lackluster season.
A couple of posters in this thread have been talking about getting Howard and a PF for next year, we don't currently have the scholarships spots for that correct? We have one plus one if Henry leaves making two (one taken already), right?
While normally the voice of impending doom, I too think we will be a better team next year. I really like Hani and think he will make a jump next year, and have to give major credit to JJJ for his work this year. Not expecting top 20 and we miss HE to be sure, but overall I think we become a more rounded and stable team.
Funny, I have been thinking just the opposite. I am not terribly bullish on the near-term futur. The have some nice pieces, but are losing by far the best player off a team that frankly wasn't very good. The inexperience and inconsistency are well documented and is a legitimate excuse, but while there are some nice pieces (Cheatam, Carter and JJJ in particular) there, i suspect lack of depth will be even a bigger issue next season. If I were Wojo, I'd be looking very hard at jucos. I see next year being a lot like this year. Largely competitive, but not really very good, and completely over matched by the top teams in the league.
Long time between now, players to be added, etc., so we'll see, but they are still a long way away.
Quote from: LAMUfan on March 11, 2016, 07:51:56 AM
A couple of posters in this thread have been talking about getting Howard and a PF for next year, we don't currently have the scholarships spots for that correct? We have one plus one if Henry leaves making two (one taken already), right?
Incorrect. We have one available right now even after Hauser and Bailey signed. Bailey won't end up counting while he goes on LDS mission. If (when) HE leaves we'll have 2 available. So expect 3 new players in uniform next year. Hauser plus two TBD.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 11, 2016, 07:57:10 AM
Funny, I have been thinking just the opposite. I am not terribly bullish on the near-term futur. The have some nice pieces, but are losing by far the best player off a team that frankly wasn't very good. The inexperience and inconsistency are well documented and is a legitimate excuse, but while there are some nice pieces (Cheatam, Carter and JJJ in particular) there, i suspect lack of depth will be even a bigger issue next season. If I were Wojo, I'd be looking very hard at jucos. I see next year being a lot like this year. Largely competitive, but not really very good, and completely over matched by the top teams in the league.
Long time between now, players to be added, etc., so we'll see, but they are still a long way away.
Yeah, I don't know where people are getting any kind of optimism for next season. They seem to be based on wishful scenarios that simply are not likely to happen. Henry stays or we bring in a dominant power forward. Carter, Duane and Heldt take a huge step forward. Is there any indication that will happen? I see us fighting to hang with the mid-pack of the Big East and probably missing the NIT. Again.
Quote from: jsglow on March 11, 2016, 07:59:03 AM
Incorrect. We have one available right now even after Hauser and Bailey signed. Bailey won't end up counting while he goes on LDS mission. If (when) HE leaves we'll have 2 available. So expect 3 new players in uniform next year. Hauser plus two TBD.
Thanks.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 11, 2016, 05:37:26 AMNext year will be interesting. We need another big, honestly could use another even if Henry were to stay. Fully expecting he'll be gone and Howard will be here, so the staff needs to find a ready to play big man.
Scheme will be interesting. If our core rotation after Luke is JJ, Duane, Cheatham, Rowsey, Sandy, Traci, and Wally, that's a very small team. Tough to play man against 6'7" and bigger wings and forwards when you can't really contest their shots. Might need more zone to protect Luke. Offensively, however, we would be very quick and very good on the perimeter.
I don't see Wojo moving away from the inside-out philosophy; early in the possession, all of our guards (whether it's Traci, Haanif, Jajuan or Duane) are looking to drive or feed the post first.
But if the returning guards and Rowsey are better than this year, it could open up the middle even more than the combination of Henry and Luke did. Having more reliable three-point shooters means defenders can't sag into the lane to double-team as often. And if defenders are playing close on the perimeter, once you get the first step or a good pick you're creating havoc on your way to the basket.
Quality bigs make a difference. But that only goes so far. Good teams found ways to limit Henry's touches and deny him the ball where he wanted it. This is a guard's game. Cut down on the turnovers, make more threes, and I think we're going to be okay.
And hopefully Henry stays or we land another big.
Quote from: real chili 83 on March 11, 2016, 05:27:36 AM
Wojo sees something in Sandy. That's why he got the minutes he did.
Maybe becomes next season's JJJ?
If you look at Sandy's stats this season and JJJ's last year, there are similarities.
If you look at the way Duke plays lately, and I'm assuming that Wojo has similar philosophies, they love to go small. And at times this year Marquette has looked great when they have gone small. (The home game v. Butler for instance.) I think while Wojo wants a PF of some type, I think he would be fine with four guard line ups with many scoring options.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on March 11, 2016, 09:03:34 AM
If you look at the way Duke plays lately, and I'm assuming that Wojo has similar philosophies, they love to go small. And at times this year Marquette has looked great when they have gone small. (The home game v. Butler for instance.) I think while Wojo wants a PF of some type, I think he would be fine with four guard line ups with many scoring options.
They looked great playing small when Henry was the big. Luke and Heldt can't replicate that versatility.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on March 11, 2016, 09:03:34 AM
If you look at the way Duke plays lately, and I'm assuming that Wojo has similar philosophies, they love to go small. And at times this year Marquette has looked great when they have gone small. (The home game v. Butler for instance.) I think while Wojo wants a PF of some type, I think he would be fine with four guard line ups with many scoring options.
It is fine to go small much like Villanova, but small with MU next year is very small. Physically Carter, Johnson, Wilson, Cohen do not scare me at all as these 4 players
are not physically tough at all. Oh I forgot, Rowsey, now there is a speciman. They need a 6'7" Faisal Abraham type, this will be a telling off-season for Wojo, if he can
get that player he is moving forward, if not, another challenging year. He can offer any grad student minutes immediately much less an incoming frosh, so that has to
present some interest from somebody. I say he finds somebody.
Quote from: MUfan12 on March 11, 2016, 09:16:24 AM
They looked great playing small when Henry was the big. Luke and Heldt can't replicate that versatility.
Agreed.
Except that everyone on the floor for Duke can shoot the 3. And not 34% shooters, 42% shooters. Until Marquette has at least 2 guys that can do that, the small ball won't work.
In college basketball, even pros now, you need knock down 3 point shooters. Carlino was nice for a year, but I can't think of the last one before him. Wisconsin consistently has those guys.
Quote from: esotericmindguy on March 11, 2016, 09:27:39 AM
Except that everyone on the floor for Duke can shoot the 3. And not 34% shooters, 42% shooters. Until Marquette has at least 2 guys that can do that, the small ball won't work.
Right. Which is why they went out and got guys like Haanif, Rowsey, Hauser and Bailey, and have completely revamped JJJ's shot.
Quote from: esotericmindguy on March 11, 2016, 09:27:39 AM
Except that everyone on the floor for Duke can shoot the 3. And not 34% shooters, 42% shooters. Until Marquette has at least 2 guys that can do that, the small ball won't work.
In college basketball, even pros now, you need knock down 3 point shooters. Carlino was nice for a year, but I can't think of the last one before him. Wisconsin consistently has those guys.
Before Carlino it was DJO, before DJO it was the "midgets", before that it was the Trio. I can keep going if you would like.
Quote from: esotericmindguy on March 11, 2016, 09:27:39 AM
Except that everyone on the floor for Duke can shoot the 3. And not 34% shooters, 42% shooters. Until Marquette has at least 2 guys that can do that, the small ball won't work.
In college basketball, even pros now, you need knock down 3 point shooters. Carlino was nice for a year, but I can't think of the last one before him. Wisconsin consistently has those guys.
Totally agree, yesterday was a perfect analysis, open 3's early and often, they were at the end of game like 2-16 or so and this has happened numerous times. The 4 I listed above do not have any consistency from 3 land. They might once in awhile but not like Bluitt or Macara, X has a chance to win it all. Rowsey and Howard plus Hauser might be a nice combination of shooters, but will they be able to defend anybody?
Quote from: T-Bone on March 10, 2016, 11:22:26 PM
Our guards.
TC ranks 6th in the BE for A/T, 3rd in steals as a freshman.
JJJ can dominate for stretches, as the season wore on the length of those stretches increased.
HC keep up the confidence in his game, and he will be awesome.
Du is extremely talented, he will be as good as he wants.
Down low
Fish... Stay out of foul trouble, I'm happy
Heldt, made some great strides, looking forward to his Jr year.
Sandy, needs to find a way to be an offensive factor again. Others took some leaps past him, but he has the talent to do more.
I like what we got.
http://www.bigeast.com/documents/2015/11/15/1516MBBStats.pdf
We lose our best once in two decades player to the NBA
We go from a team of freshmen to a team of sophomores and freshmen
We will likely lose some of our limited experience to transfer
We still do not have a legitimate PF
We showed no empirical evidence of improving over the course of the year
Marquette has gone from being a top tier Big East program to a mediocre bottom of the league team that is no where near being ranked in the polls much less getting invited to compete for the National Championship.
Looking at the muscle movement that will occur between now and next November is not encouraging. The University invests heavily in its basketball team. It has every right to expect more.
Quote from: keefe on March 11, 2016, 09:38:04 AM
We lose our best once in two decades player to the NBA
We showed no empirical evidence of improving over the course of the year
Marquette has gone from being a top tier Big East program to a mediocre bottom of the league team that is no where near being ranked in the polls much less getting invited to compete for the National Championship.
Looking at the muscle movement that will occur between now and next November is not encouraging. The University invests heavily in its basketball team. It has every right to expect more.
I think we definitely improved this year - but we never became the 'tough out' night in and night out that I expected us to become at this point in the year. That being said having a young team makes it a really tough season to be too judgmental. There is a lot to like - namely skill development and recruiting.
My opinion is next year is really important for Wojo. He may have all the time/support in the world to rebuild things the "right way" - but I imagine another season like this one would be a blow to the fan base and the coffers. Momentum is hard to recapture - think of this, a whole class of MU fans are basically reliving the equivalent of the Deane years (worse actually). Need to get people excited again.
Need a big (hopefully experienced) body to rebound | Teach some defense | get an experienced coach for the bench.
Me too.
I expect HE to go pro. I expect MU to go hard after the best big men grad transfers that present themselves. And I expect Markus Howard to commit.
I then expect an 11-7 BE record, and back to the dance. I too, am bullish. Pretty damn bummed I have to watch another tourney without Marquette, but we made progress.
Thanks God opening day is around the corner.
Quote from: nyg on March 11, 2016, 07:06:14 AM
Yes, that would be the dream scenario and I am sure the staff knows that Fischer experiences foul trouble and with Heldt the only bigman left, well....
Last night when Henry fouled out, leaving JJJ and Cohen up front, they are man handled by Reynolds and Farr. It was really not fun to watch those two thin kids against grown men.
One question I have. Is Anim that bad, because even with the foul issues experienced, Heldt being out, he basically saw no playing time. Since BE play, Anim played a total of 30 minutes in 22 games. Even with Cohen having a bad BE season, Anim didn't see the floor. Is Cohen that much better than Anim?
Sacar was a SG is Hs. To expect him to play minutes as freshman PF is a big time stretch. Don't see a clear path to minutes for him until his junior year, but think he'll be pretty good and hope he sticks it out.
Quote from: keefe on March 11, 2016, 09:38:04 AM
We showed no empirical evidence of improving over the course of the year
In general, I agree with your skepticism of next year's optimism, and that MU should expect more for its investment.
However, I can and will show empirical evidence of improving over the course of the year.
Very bearish on next year assuming Wojo is still the coach
Quote from: keefe on March 11, 2016, 09:38:04 AM
We lose our best once in two decades player to the NBA
We go from a team of freshmen to a team of sophomores and freshmen
We will likely lose some of our limited experience to transfer
We still do not have a legitimate PF
We showed no empirical evidence of improving over the course of the year
Marquette has gone from being a top tier Big East program to a mediocre bottom of the league team that is no where near being ranked in the polls much less getting invited to compete for the National Championship.
Looking at the muscle movement that will occur between now and next November is not encouraging. The University invests heavily in its basketball team. It has every right to expect more.
this is garbage - these kids aren't assets in some f'ing corporation -
Quote from: keefe on March 11, 2016, 09:38:04 AM
We lose our best once in two decades player to the NBA
We go from a team of freshmen to a team of sophomores and freshmen
We will likely lose some of our limited experience to transfer
We still do not have a legitimate PF
We showed no empirical evidence of improving over the course of the year
Marquette has gone from being a top tier Big East program to a mediocre bottom of the league team that is no where near being ranked in the polls much less getting invited to compete for the National Championship.
Looking at the muscle movement that will occur between now and next November is not encouraging. The University invests heavily in its basketball team. It has every right to expect more.
What's gotten into you today Keefe? You're usually more level headed than this.
Despite having mostly the same players, I think this team is gonna have a VERY different look next year. My honest opinion is that we'll have pretty similar results to this season. Bummer.
What intrigues/excites me is that, if we get Howard for next year, our 3 newcomers will almost certainly be our 3 best shooters. That's 3 new outside weapons that will change the flow of the offense and how teams have to defend us. Luke frustrated the crap out of me this year but I think he will benefit a lot from those additions (if Howard comes and if Hauser can defend well enough to get minutes).
Edit: I recognize you can put Cheatham in the "best shooters" category but he's a slasher first and doesn't shoot enough for me to put him in there.
Quote from: CAGASS24 on March 11, 2016, 10:19:47 AM
this is garbage - these kids aren't assets in some f'ing corporation -
Hahaha. The hell they aren't.
We were definitely closer to the bottom of the conference this year than the top, so I don't totally understand the optimism especially without Henry.
If HE leaves we will be status quo, similar to this year. Improvements from returning players but lack of toughness, physical presence, height and knowing how to play lock down defense added to losing a stud like HE makes it extremely difficult to make the improvements necessary to make the NCAA tourney. I am afraid this time next year we will be hoping to make the NIT.
Now if HE stays, we should make the tourney.
Quote from: statnik on March 11, 2016, 10:59:14 AM
We were definitely closer to the bottom of the conference this year than the top, so I don't totally understand the optimism especially without Henry.
On one hand "Everyone else is coming back!"
On the other hand "Everyone else is coming back....."
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 11, 2016, 10:31:13 AM
What's gotten into you today Keefe? You're usually more level headed than this.
I think I am being realistic, Aggie. I have long been a champion of the current staff but this past season was disappointing and I can't see how next year will be any better.
At best, Marquette is treading water and I think next year we actually regress.
Let there be no doubt: I care more about Marquette basketball than any other sports team (including Michigan football) but I do not see us making the progress we should reasonably expect.
Next year could be better but I am seeing more subtraction than addition.
Quote from: esotericmindguy on March 11, 2016, 09:27:39 AMExcept that everyone on the floor for Duke can shoot the 3. And not 34% shooters, 42% shooters. Until Marquette has at least 2 guys that can do that, the small ball won't work.
That's part of what makes teams like Kansas and Michigan State so dangerous.
The Jayhawks have gone 270-633 (42.7%) from 3-point range this season — a 56.7% effective field goal percentage. Each of their top five scorers have taken 58 or more threes
and made at least 40% of them. That's astounding. It's really tough to defend everyone everywhere on the court.
Michigan State doesn't have quite as many great shooters. But they have a couple who are off the charts. Their leading scorer Valentine hits 45.4% from three. Their second-leading scorer Forbes, has made a mind-boggling 50.5%. As a team, MSU knocks down 43.9% from 3-point range — a 56.5% effective field goal percentage.
Neither team has a dominant big man the likes of Henry. I'm glad we landed him, glad I got a chance to see him in person, wish that he decides to come back for one more year. But at the same time, you don't have to have All-Americans at the 4 or 5 spot to compete at the highest level of NCAA Division I basketball.
Let's wait until the roster is set before we start worrying about regression.
Sandy transfers and we pick up a Juco
Quote from: keefe on March 11, 2016, 11:03:43 AM
I think I am being realistic, Aggie. I have long been a champion of the current staff but this past season was disappointing and I can't see how next year will be any better.
What were your expectations for this season?
I agree with your overall sentiment towards next year, but looking at this team coming in to this year they performed as reasonably expected.
Quote from: CAGASS24 on March 11, 2016, 10:19:47 AM
this is garbage - these kids aren't assets in some f'ing corporation -
Garbage, huh? If you haven't figured out that Div I college sports is a big business then you are woefully naive. And the principles of efficient management most definitely apply to the running of a college basketball team.
You might not agree with my sentiment that Marquette will struggle next year but do not kid yourself that this is a business operation.
Marquette doesn't invest in the program because the Society of Jesus likes basketball. The University sees it as a strategic investment and they have every right to expect a return - both intangible and quantifiable.
Those kids are assets and Wojo is being paid to deliver on that investment.
Quote from: LAZER on March 11, 2016, 11:16:23 AM
What were your expectations for this season?
I agree with your overall sentiment towards next year, but looking at this team coming in to this year they performed as reasonably expected.
Yep. They were right about where I expected. Exceeded/met my expectations in non con (11-2). Fell about a game short in conference.
Quote from: keefe on March 11, 2016, 11:03:43 AM
I think I am being realistic, Aggie. I have long been a champion of the current staff but this past season was disappointing and I can't see how next year will be any better.
At best, Marquette is treading water and I think next year we actually regress.
Let there be no doubt: I care more about Marquette basketball than any other sports team (including Michigan football) but I do not see us making the progress we should reasonably expect.
Next year could be better but I am seeing more subtraction than addition.
I honestly don't understand the disappointment. We got 20 wins, are fighting for a postseason bid, improved by 4 conference wins, and did it all with the 8th youngest team in D1. That's an accomplishment. And while you may try to say there was no improvement, the stats tell a completely different story. Go back and check some of the charts from Henry Sugar. We've been trending up all season. And I've already rehashed my argument repeatedly about why Henry leaving doesn't mean we will regress. I am confident that this team will be better next season (assuming no other major defections).
The future is bright Crash.
Guys
I know most out there think my thoughts are crazy, but I do not share any bullish sentiment. As Keefe noted, at best we are treading water. We are slipping faster than many want to admit and believe I can prove that to some extent from purely eye test. Ask yourselves the following questions:
1. Did you leave more home game tickets in the drawer or giveaway this year vs. previous years?
2. Did you watch the games you blew off in from start to finish?
3. If MU ball comes up in everyday conversation do you find yourself digging deeper to provide "true" optimism?
My point is simple, the program is slowly slipping. Not jump off a cliff slipping, but if truthful I would think more fans have to dig deep to find true bullish beliefs for next season.
Sandy and Sacar transfer. Get 2 worthy BIGS>
Quote from: Earl Tatum on March 11, 2016, 01:10:02 PM
Sandy and Sacar transfer. Get 2 worthy BIGS>
Sacar is not transferring. He came here knowing he'd have to work to play alot as an upperclassmen and chose that route over going to a smaller school. He wanted the challenge. He's not going to bail.
Sandy....I doubt he bails but idk
Quote from: Henry Sugar on March 11, 2016, 10:07:26 AM
In general, I agree with your skepticism of next year's optimism, and that MU should expect more for its investment.
However, I can and will show empirical evidence of improving over the course of the year.
Looking forward to seeing your analysis. Aside from Sandy, and Fish being up and down, I think everyone has improved during the year.
i hope I'm wrong, but I expect a frustrating year coming up.
Here's the scenario I envision: With HE gone, Du feels it's his turn to be the man and tries to take over games especially late in the contest. And the forced shots and turnovers costs us. Just my opinion. Like I said, hope I'm wrong.
T Bone
One thing on guys improving, it does not hurt having a double-double machine in the lineup. Luke and HC benefited a great deal from HE being on the court. No disrespect to either one of them but HE tilted the court more than most think.
On that note, the improvement of JJJ in past two months is the most impressive thing I have seen at MU ball in a long time. Aside from greatly improved I really do believe he has a big time player and I mean big time player on national scale. He took over stretches on games and made it look easy. Have always been big fan of his and happy for the kid!!
Quote from: Goose on March 11, 2016, 02:20:06 PM
T Bone
One thing on guys improving, it does not hurt having a double-double machine in the lineup. Luke and HC benefited a great deal from HE being on the court. No disrespect to either one of them but HE tilted the court more than most think.
On that note, the improvement of JJJ in past two months is the most impressive thing I have seen at MU ball in a long time. Aside from greatly improved I really do believe he has a big time player and I mean big time player on national scale. He took over stretches on games and made it look easy. Have always been big fan of his and happy for the kid!!
I agree. That having HE makes everyone better.
I'm saw improvement (perceived on my part, numbers might tell a different story) in players like HC and TC. They are far better than at the beginning of the season and even better than they were at the start of conference play. Both offensively and defensively.
Henry's improvement was obscured by starting at a high level. Aside from Iowa he was in double figures every game. However as competition improved, he maintained those numbers. Tough to do as you move from cupcake to conference. He is a much better player than he was. Offensively, I'm not touching his defense...
I miss statsheet.
And regarding JJJ, keep in mind he had that weird windup on his shot that was slow and inconsistent. As he grows more comfortable with his new form, sky's the limit.
Quote from: T-Bone on March 11, 2016, 03:17:52 PM
Henry's improvement was obscured by starting at a high level. Aside from Iowa he was in double figures every game. However as competition improved, he maintained those numbers. Tough to do as you move from cupcake to conference. He is a much better player than he was. Offensively, I'm not touching his defense...
For Henry, look at his efficiency. Yes, he was in double digits, but he was very inefficient the first 8 games of conference play once the season started for real. We needed him out there for his rebounding, but his high usage coupled with low eFG% was hurting us.
The rest of the way (after Stetson) he really turned it up. Honestly, Henry has been playing at close to an All-American level since the end of January. His offensive rating, eFG%, 3PFG% are all up. His shot selection is better, and he's doing it while still rebounding at the same level. Kid has really turned it up the past 6 weeks. Can't even imagine what he'd be like if he came back next year.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 11, 2016, 03:48:33 PM
For Henry, look at his efficiency. Yes, he was in double digits, but he was very inefficient the first 8 games of conference play once the season started for real. We needed him out there for his rebounding, but his high usage coupled with low eFG% was hurting us.
The rest of the way (after Stetson) he really turned it up. Honestly, Henry has been playing at close to an All-American level since the end of January. His offensive rating, eFG%, 3PFG% are all up. His shot selection is better, and he's doing it while still rebounding at the same level. Kid has really turned it up the past 6 weeks. Can't even imagine what he'd be like if he came back next year.
I would say HE and JJJ have really turned it up over the final third of the season. Carter looks much improved from beginning of the year as well. So why did this team not take it to another level? Why did we get blown out in 2 of our last 3 games. Why did our defense look worse at the end of the year? I think that all goes back to Wojo.
Quote from: mufanatic on March 11, 2016, 05:11:36 PM
I would say HE and JJJ have really turned it up over the final third of the season. Carter looks much improved from beginning of the year as well. So why did this team not take it to another level? Why did we get blown out in 2 of our last 3 games. Why did our defense look worse at the end of the year? I think that all goes back to Wojo.
Christ, look who we lost to. Butler, X, Nova. A tournament team, a 2 seed, and a 1 seed. We did improve, but these teams were just better.
Sandy's production and impact dropped dramatically once Wojo dropped him from the starting 5. He was not good coming off the bench. Why that is, I have no opinion at all. But Wojo needs to figure out how to get the best out of him.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on March 12, 2016, 02:10:51 PM
Sandy's production and impact dropped dramatically once Wojo dropped him from the starting 5. He was not good coming off the bench. Why that is, I have no opinion at all. But Wojo needs to figure out how to get the best out of him.
Perhaps you are confusing cause with effect.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on March 12, 2016, 02:10:51 PM
Sandy's production and impact dropped dramatically once Wojo dropped him from the starting 5. He was not good coming off the bench. Why that is, I have no opinion at all. But Wojo needs to figure out how to get the best out of him.
The best for Sandy is to transfer as he does not have an offensive game that is Big East ready. Shot takes way to long to get off and has no mid-range game. But
since he will not transfer he needs to re-vamp his shot much like JJJ did last summer. They have to break it down and start over.
Quote from: warriorchick on March 12, 2016, 02:12:37 PM
Perhaps you are confusing cause with effect.
I question why Wojo yanked him from the starting 5. He was playing well while a starter, he wasn't a star, but a contributor. He never contributed in one game off the bench. Butler game doesn't count, it was all garbage time production. Some guys just aren't good coming off the bench. Duane was playing well in a reserve role early in the season. JJJ contributed in whatever role he was given. What was the compelling reason to bench Sandy for good after about mid-January and reduce him to non-factor? Wojo could have made it work better with the personnel he had.
I still like and believe in Wojo, and have been a fierce defender of him on this board, but I don't think he managed personnel very well once they got into conference. He took a guy who was productive in Cohen and he became a non-factor when his role was changed. That's on the coach and his staff.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on March 12, 2016, 02:34:50 PM
I question why Wojo yanked him from the starting 5. He was playing well while a starter, he wasn't a star, but a contributor. He never contributed in one game off the bench. Butler game doesn't count, it was all garbage time production. Some guys just aren't good coming off the bench. Duane was playing well in a reserve role early in the season. JJJ contributed in whatever role he was given. What was the compelling reason to bench Sandy for good after about mid-January and reduce him to non-factor? Wojo could have made it work better with the personnel he had.
I still like and believe in Wojo, and have been a fierce defender of him on this board, but I don't think he managed personnel very well once they got into conference. He took a guy who was productive in Cohen and he became a non-factor when his role was changed. That's on the coach and his staff.
Cohen started the first six BE games and played 30 mpg. He went 13/31 in those games (.419) and 2/10 from 3 (.200). Averaged 6.5/3.0/3.0.
Not terrible. But hardly stellar. Can't blame Wojo for wanted to switch things up.
Even after he was moved to the bench, he got plenty of time. Double digit minutes in 6 of the next 7 games. Including 20+ in three of them. He didn't shoot bad in those appearances. He barely shot the ball at all.
Struggling to see how this is Wojo's fault.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on March 12, 2016, 03:05:44 PM
Cohen started the first six BE games and played 30 mpg. He went 13/31 in those games (.419) and 2/10 from 3 (.200). Averaged 6.5/3.0/3.0.
Not terrible. But hardly stellar. Can't blame Wojo for wanted to switch things up.
Even after he was moved to the bench, he got plenty of time. Double digit minutes in 6 of the next 7 games. Including 20+ in three of them. He didn't shoot bad in those appearances. He barely shot the ball at all.
Struggling to see how this is Wojo's fault.
I'm including what he did as a starter throughout non-conference too, not just looking at BEast by itself. Wojo trusted him enough in the Badger game to run a play for him late in the game, in which he delivered.
Agreed he wasn't anything stellar as a starter, but like I said, at least he was contributing. He fell off a cliff as far as production when he fell out of the starting 5.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on March 12, 2016, 03:24:09 PM
I'm including what he did as a starter throughout non-conference too, not just looking at BEast by itself. Wojo trusted him enough in the Badger game to run a play for him late in the game, in which he delivered.
Agreed he wasn't anything stellar as a starter, but like I said, at least he was contributing. He fell off a cliff as far as production when he fell out of the starting 5.
OK. So how is this Wojo's fault?
I'm hoping for big things from Sandy (notice I said hoping, not expecting). If we are going to lose Henry and run a 4 guard offense, Sandy is the best candidate to start in the 4 spot. He's got the height and he has shown that he can guard forwards who are bigger and stronger than him (his work on Nigel Hayes comes to mind) but his rebounding and offense is simply not BEast caliber at this time. We need him to hit the gym and add some strength. I agree with Hoopster when he needs to have his shot completely broken down and built back up. It takes too long to get off. If he can speed up his release without sacrificing accuracy, he could be a serviceable guard-forward next season.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on March 12, 2016, 03:34:47 PM
OK. So how is this Wojo's fault?
Maybe I was being too critical of Wojo while excluding Cohen's own responsibility in his disappearance. There's also the fact of Cohen being a sophomore, this season being his first one of meaningful and significant minutes after being used very little last year, and the natural development process which happens with most players at this level.
But the coach and his staff need to determine players roles which will help bring out their best play. And I think it's fair to question if Wojo did that with Cohen this year.
Quote from: real chili 83 on March 11, 2016, 05:27:36 AM
Wojo sees something in Sandy. That's why he got the minutes he did.
i think he did initially, but chilled on him as the season wore on. foul troubles, turnovers and some kind of disciplinary issue that although some of you may know what it was, i never did hear. i would love to see him correct/improve on those weaknesses mentioned. i like his size and potential shooting abilities. 6'5" shooting the trey baby
Quote from: Goose on March 11, 2016, 11:59:58 AM
Guys
I know most out there think my thoughts are crazy, but I do not share any bullish sentiment. As Keefe noted, at best we are treading water. We are slipping faster than many want to admit and believe I can prove that to some extent from purely eye test. Ask yourselves the following questions:
1. Did you leave more home game tickets in the drawer or giveaway this year vs. previous years?
2. Did you watch the games you blew off in from start to finish?
3. If MU ball comes up in everyday conversation do you find yourself digging deeper to provide "true" optimism?
My point is simple, the program is slowly slipping. Not jump off a cliff slipping, but if truthful I would think more fans have to dig deep to find true bullish beliefs for next season.
I disagree with this analysis.
I am assuming Henry leaves and I still believe we will be an improved team next year.
First, Our coaching staff will be more experienced. I have not been a huge fan of this group over the last two years, but I do see signs of improvement. We did win many of the close games this year. I think our coaching staff can move from bottom third of the league to middle third of the league, based on combination of recruiting and game coaching.
Second, As has been pointed out by others, we have a very high percentage of our offensive production coming back. Haanif, JJJ and Duane will be a very strong trio. Luke will continue to progress and reduce his fouls. Those four guys are all effective offensive players. In addition they all have something to bring to the table defensively. Finally, JJJ is the kind of player , when playing well, tends to bring the best out in the other players because of his passing and willingness to look to others first.
Third, Our point guard situation will be solid from day 1. Carter showed steady improvement all year long and most importantly has all the requisite point guard skills. He will be even better next year. Rowsey, is a proven D1 point guard ,with over 1000 career points already, who has had a year to build chemistry and work with the team. He is in an ideal position, as there are others around to shoulder the burden, and I thus expect him to be a more efficient scorer.
Fourth , Heldt will move into his sophomore year with some experience and is positioned to give us 12-15 solid minutes as a back up to Luke. Similarly, Wally will be an experienced 5th year senior and we can get some solid energy minutes from him. Sacar will have more chances to demonstrate his ability and grow.
Fifth , Sandy will use the summer to bulk up and work on his shot. He will find a role because of his defense.
Sixth, We will not have to depend on freshman next year. Hauser could possibly red shirt.
We are obviously going to need to find someone to help replace Henry's rebounds and size. I am confident that the coaching staff is working on this. A JUCO or a grad transfer will likely be in the picture . In the past they have not been willing to take a player for the sake of taking a player, but I think with two years of Big East under their belt they will take a more pragmatic approach.
I did not think we would win 20 games this year and so I am very happy with that. I hoping we can 1 or 2 more wins to that in some post season tournament. We clearly were not near as good as Villanova, Xavier and Seton Hall. Villianova losses two very good players, but still has a lot coming back. Xavier losses Abell, Farr and Coker. They will also have a lot coming back assuming Sumner and Bluitt do not turn pro. Seton Hall does not lose much by graduation. However, if Whithead would go pro they would take a step back. Butler will have significant losses. Providence will problably lose Dunn and maybe Bentil. I could see MU finishing 4th next year, but part of that is the middle of the league should be weaker. Assuming we improve the strength of our non-conference schedule it will be hard to replicate 11-2 again.