MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: The Lens on February 14, 2016, 06:41:13 AM
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Just checking.
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No Bueno.
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Same as it was before the Creighton game. Same as it was before the Providence game honestly.
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Was reflecting back on the last rebuilding era we had and progress that was visible. I remember vividly being at Cameron and watching the big three that KO brought and knowing we were going the right direction. We got drilled by Duke that night and three weeks later by Kansas but there was feel that something good was starting to happen.
The positive juice that KO brought in to the program was seen by everyone. To be honest, there have been some positive moments this year and cannot dismiss that. I am just not sure enough of them to get overly jacked up about the near term future. I really believe that next year we are bringing back 4-5 mid to upper level D1 players and beyond that not much in the cupboard.
To sum it up, losing three years in year sucks. Losing best player after one season sucks. I think Wojo has a much bigger challenge ahead of him than he probably thought coming in. Hopefully he has it in him to get it done and only time will tell.
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I think the season still has to play out in order to give definitive grades as the team is inexperienced so we should see the most improvement at the end of the year.
>Have the players and the team progressed?
>What is the team identity and how has it evolved? Do players play as a team? How do they respond to coaching? Losses? Do they defend home court?
>Does the offensive system match the talent in place? Do we match up well? Is space being created? Shots being made in the flow?
>Does the defensive system allow for stops? Limit match up disadvantages?
>Are players improving? Put in a position to succeed and in their proper positions to succeed? Does talent reach their potential? Exceed it?
>Are mistakes repeated? Are match ups exploited? Is the team finishing?
>Does the team take care of teams they should beat or are at parity with? Play above their stripes against top tier teams?
>Is the coaching staff putting together good game plans? Are they pantsed or doing the pantsing coming out of breaks? Timeouts? Getting calls? Winning or losing situational match ups? Finishing games with good execution, strategy? Teaching? Or looking for excuses?
Lots of question marks yet. But lots of answers. Many of which are not favorable, many of which are. That said, at this point, MU at 8th place is not even an NIT team. Got to earn it.
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I stand by what I said before -- we're improving. Wojo has shown he can recruit. Now he has to show he can develop and build.
This year has been maddening. For those of us from my era -- and probably Goose's as well -- we think we have a God-given right to a tournament berth and should be in the running to be national champions. We're better off than we were a year ago, but tournament teams and championship contenders win games like Creighton. If we were a tournament team, last night should have required our Warriors to break a sweat, play some defense, hit some shots and be at the bars by 11:00 p.m. (OK, I am dating myself).
Instead we lost again in a season so madly inconsistent that even Jesus would lose patience with us. We've lost to Depaul but somehow we'll find a way to beat Villanova at home! We defeated Providence twice but lost to Creighton? C'mon!
It has been said many times in here that there will be bumps along the way. I agree but I'd like to see the beginning of more consistent play. Henry or no Henry, we're a tournament team next year if we are consistent in our play and view it as a business -- we're businesslike in how we handle ourselves on the court.
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dgies9156
I am far from giving up, I love MU ball way too much. My frustration comes from the lack of consistent improvement. JJJ has been the bright light of the season for me. I can live without the NCAA for a few years if the end game is being a top tier program.
We are from a great era and remember when Xavier was a cupcake on our schedule. They are now so far beyond our program that it makes cringe. There is a tremendous amount of work ahead for this program.
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Unchanged. Young players take time to learn and mature. So do young coaches.
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The biggest thing for the program now is to get that 17th win on the board against DePaul. Guarantees a winning season. Wojo can make the case to recruits we briefly hit bottom and are back on the way up. Each additional win reinforces that notion.
I haven't lost hope yet. There are still several paths to the tournament. Have to either win out regular season or win Big East Tournament. This team has enough talent to do both.
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Was reflecting back on the last rebuilding era we had and progress that was visible. I remember vividly being at Cameron and watching the big three that KO brought and knowing we were going the right direction. We got drilled by Duke that night and three weeks later by Kansas but there was feel that something good was starting to happen.
The positive juice that KO brought in to the program was seen by everyone. To be honest, there have been some positive moments this year and cannot dismiss that. I am just not sure enough of them to get overly jacked up about the near term future. I really believe that next year we are bringing back 4-5 mid to upper level D1 players and beyond that not much in the cupboard.
To sum it up, losing three years in year sucks. Losing best player after one season sucks. I think Wojo has a much bigger challenge ahead of him than he probably thought coming in. Hopefully he has it in him to get it done and only time will tell.
I think he knows exactly the challenge he has. He's a very good recruiter, I'm not worried about that part.
As for Kevin, it was easy to feel that way back then because we were an independent and then MCC, so doing well in that environment didn't take a huge jump to immediately get to the top of the conference. Kevin also did it during a time where the program 75 miles west was a non NCAA participant for 54 straight years.
I'd remind people that Kevin was 11-18 his second year. Yes, a brutal schedule but even in a weak MCC we were only 7-7. In Kevin's third year, we were only 16-13 and only 5-5 in the GMC, certainly a better conference but not at the Big East level.
People can dismiss the youth (not you Goose, this is just a general statement) if they wish, but I'm not sure how they can with a straight face.
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I haven't lost hope yet. There are still several paths to the tournament. Have to either win out regular season or win Big East Tournament. This team has enough talent to do both.
Is holding the NCAA headquarters hostage one of those scenarios ;)? (J/k)
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A little math here
98.29% of the rest of the NCAA men's basketball teams have more experience than MU.
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Unchanged. Young players take time to learn and mature. So do young coaches.
Spot on.
What i'm surprised at is the level of immaturity and entitlement in some of the fan base. I get that it's a message board but if even 10% the level of immaturity and outrage is expressed in daily interactions these folks must be insufferable.
Add in the neurotic obsession with the Badgers and it's disheartening - granted I don't live in Wisconsin but either nut up and be proud of your decision and the benefits of a Marquette education or don't, but stop the incessant whining.
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A little math here
98.29% of the rest of the NCAA men's basketball teams have more experience than MU.
I think your math is off. Knock down the numerator by 2, a'inal?
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I'd remind people that Kevin was 11-18 his second year. Yes, a brutal schedule but even in a weak MCC we were only 7-7. In Kevin's third year, we were only 16-13 and only 5-5 in the GMC, certainly a better conference but not at the Big East level.
This.
I find it humorous that many of the same people who rip Wojo wax poetic about KO. If KO were here now and producing the same results he did in his own second season, he'd be placed on a "leash" by some of these same yahoos.
I appreciate how KO helped a program badly in need of helping, but KO was at best OK if analyzed objectively. I have high -- and I think realistic -- hopes that Wojo's tenure will be better. Perhaps much better.
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Add in the neurotic obsession with the Badgers and it's disheartening - granted I don't live in Wisconsin but either nut up and be proud of your decision and the benefits of a Marquette education or don't, but stop the incessant whining.
To be fair, we have a badgers hate week & love talking about Bo whenever we can find stuff out. It's what in state rivals do. Similar to how Kentucky & Lousiville aren't in same conference & loath each other.
But yes, comparing rosters & current squads are pointless
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I think your math is off. Knock down the numerator by 2, a'inal?
98.58%
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To be fair, we have a badgers hate week & love talking about Bo whenever we can find stuff out. It's what in state rivals do. Similar to how Kentucky & Lousiville aren't in same conference & loath each other.
But yes, comparing rosters & current squads are pointless
Great point. It's the ongoing comparisons, that some seem to translate to personal self worth, that confound me.
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A little math here
98.29% of the rest of the NCAA men's basketball teams have more experience than MU.
And about 3 % have the budget and 4/5 star players we do
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Great point. It's the ongoing comparisons, that some seem to translate to personal self worth, that confound me.
Exactly.
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And about 3 % have the budget and 4/5 star players we do
Bingo!!!
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dgies9156
I am far from giving up, I love MU ball way too much. My frustration comes from the lack of consistent improvement. JJJ has been the bright light of the season for me. I can live without the NCAA for a few years if the end game is being a top tier program.
We are from a great era and remember when Xavier was a cupcake on our schedule. They are now so far beyond our program that it makes cringe. There is a tremendous amount of work ahead for this program.
I agree with both your posts. At the end of the day, this is three straight years at the lower end of the BE. We have a long way to go.
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A little math here
98.29% of the rest of the NCAA men's basketball teams have more experience than MU.
Whose fault is that? We went after grad transfers and jucos but couldn't land them.
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Whose fault is that? We went after grad transfers and jucos but couldn't land them.
The coaches. But given how successful they have been at recruiting outside of those few misses, I don't think its something to hold against them.
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Chico's
My only mention of KO was based off there was high level of optimism that things were going the right way. We were losing with KO but anyone with ball knowledge KNEW that would change. Currently I THINK we have brighter future.
I have zero negative comments regarding Wojo at this point. Two years into KO a lot of us were thinking big things were ahead for the program. Different era now. For the record, this idiot is still dreaming big.
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And about 3 % have the budget and 4/5 star players we do
And infinite% more starters who have played in two final fours. But again, do you have any other topics of conversation besides the Badgers?
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The reality is that MU is playing with mostly 7 players.3 are Freshmen,2 are so called veterans from the old regime that turn the ball over way to much and play suspect defense.They have no sub for the 2 frontcourt players and only have 1 true ballhandler who is a freshman.Inexperience at guard is not good at any level.Wojo has only had one recruiting class.It is going to take another 2 classes before things really turnaround.The fan base has to understand this was a total rebuilding project.The cupboard was bare.
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And about 3 % have the budget and 4/5 star players we do
Is your self worth predicated on how MU does? I'm worried for you Nate, I really am.
We'll be fine, young staff and young team. If we aren't fine, then they will replace, but I've got news for a lot of folks here, the approach isn't changing. Kids will be held accountable for their actions off the court, as will coaches. That seems to irk some folks. Too bad. They are running a university first and foremost, not a minor league team where they get to act as if they are on an island onto themselves without repercussions.
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Is your self worth predicated on how MU does? I'm worried for you Nate, I really am.
We'll be fine, young staff and young team. If we aren't fine, then they will replace, but I've got news for a lot of folks here, the approach isn't changing. Kids will be held accountable for their actions off the court, as will coaches. That seems to irk some folks. Too bad. They are running a university first and foremost, not a minor league team where they get to act as if they are on an island onto themselves without repercussions.
I don't want to overstate its importance, because there are elements that will try to work around it...
...however, the new eligibility requirements could cause some issues for programs who tend to bring in lesser-students...
Will there be significant impact? Probably not as much in the BEast (some exceptions, certainly)... but I've got to believe there are some talents that will struggle to reach eligibility.
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I think it's in Wisconsin, not Michigan
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I don't want to overstate its importance, because there are elements that will try to work around it...
...however, the new eligibility requirements could cause some issues for programs who tend to bring in lesser-students...
Will there be significant impact? Probably not as much in the BEast (some exceptions, certainly)... but I've got to believe there are some talents that will struggle to reach eligibility.
Yup, could happen. They will adjust on the margins if I had to guess.
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The reality is that MU is playing with mostly 7 players.3 are Freshmen,2 are so called veterans from the old regime that turn the ball over way to much and play suspect defense.They have no sub for the 2 frontcourt players and only have 1 true ballhandler who is a freshman.Inexperience at guard is not good at any level.Wojo has only had one recruiting class.It is going to take another 2 classes before things really turnaround.The fan base has to understand this was a total rebuilding project.The cupboard was bare.
This I agree with. Almost totally. Maybe we Warriors expected too much this year. Next year should be telling and the year after that demonstrative as to the kind of coach Wojo is and the kind of program we will become.
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Not as bad as it will be, if we manage to lose at DePaul and then again to DePaul in Big East tournament. MUScoopers will be jumping out of windows.
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Maybe we Warriors expected too much this year.
This team has exceeded the win total I expected from them. My rationale was that counting on freshman to produce at a high level is not consistent and that we didn't have enough size after Henry and Luke. IMO, they are better than I expected because Haanif and Traci, and Henry are better than I expected. As I have said ad nauseum and ad infinitum, freshmen are not reliably consistent. They just aren't. Every challenge is new. The Creighton game was a challenge of stopping the transition game and a really gifted PG. Coming off of a double overtime game. New to half the team.
As much as we wish it to be different, a freshmen dominated team is unlikely to be a consistent team, a tournament team. Other than a few more wins, this team has been exactly what I expected.
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dgies9156
I am far from giving up, I love MU ball way too much. My frustration comes from the lack of consistent improvement. JJJ has been the bright light of the season for me. I can live without the NCAA for a few years if the end game is being a top tier program.
We are from a great era and remember when Xavier was a cupcake on our schedule. They are now so far beyond our program that it makes cringe. There is a tremendous amount of work ahead for this program.
Goose
What concerns me is when I tune in from afar and see all of the empty seats. Al defined job success in a way that only he could: were the four seats in the upper corners of the Arena filled?
Perhaps more than anyone here, your family has been a part of the Marquette narrative from the beginning. You know the history and the traditions cold.
When ground floor alums start bringing forward the questions you are now asking the administration needs to listen. While I remain optimistic for the future I am taking note that guys like you are expressing concerns.
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What concerns me is when I tune in from afar and see all of the empty seats. Al defined job success in a way that only he could: were the four seats in the upper corners of the Arena filled?
Perhaps more than anyone here, your family has been a part of the Marquette narrative from the beginning. You know the history and the traditions cold.
When ground floor alums start bringing forward the questions you are now asking the administration needs to listen. While I remain optimistic for the future I am taking note that guys like you are expressing concerns.
The upperdeck of the student section was empty at tip-off. That's an issue. Young fans are apathetic.
And with regards to youth, we're starting 3 juniors and a McDonald's All-American. Plus we sort of made it easy to leave for a would be senior in STJ.
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Goose
What concerns me is when I tune in from afar and see all of the empty seats. Al defined job success in a way that only he could: were the four seats in the upper corners of the Arena filled?
Perhaps more than anyone here, your family has been a part of the Marquette narrative from the beginning. You know the history and the traditions cold.
When ground floor alums start bringing forward the questions you are now asking the administration needs to listen. While I remain optimistic for the future I am taking note that guys like you are expressing concerns.
Lets be fair about the attendance. Our current facility is way to big for MU. The old arena was the perfect size, and it is much easier to sell 11k versus 18k.Agree with the concerns raised by Goose. Three straight years of sub par is wearing on the old timers.
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Lets be fair about the attendance. Our current facility is way to big for MU. The old arena was the perfect size, and it is much easier to sell 11k versus 18k.Agree with the concerns raised by Goose. Three straight years of sub par is wearing on the old timers.
Our old facility was great if we were a Horizon League team, not a BEast team. I agree with you that 3 sub par years is wearing on the old timers. Count me among them.
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Lets be fair about the attendance. Our current facility is way to big for MU. The old arena was the perfect size, and it is much easier to sell 11k versus 18k.Agree with the concerns raised by Goose. Three straight years of sub par is wearing on the old timers.
If we were having the season Seton Hall is having we would have 15-16k at games. I was at the Seton Hall game back on the 3rd. Granted it was a late mid week start, but the lower bowl was only 2/3 full (maybe 8000) and 100 were MU fans. The upper deck at the Rock is not available for seating at Seton Hall games. We start winning attendance will go up.
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It has the Dukiet/KO era feeling. It was not all roses with KO. There was a fair amount of criticism of KO in his 3d year. Players did not seem to be developing, the offensive and defensive schemes were questionable, and the Warriors lost at Dayton and were absolutely demolished by Kansas.
In brief, Marquette had a young coach and a young team. The bright spot was that KO brought in consistently good recruiting classes. I second the opinion that there seemed to be some momentum toward the end of the 1991-1992 season.
Wojo had much the same rebuilding project as KO, but then again KO had a much bigger task. In 1989, KO did not have a state-of-the-art athletic facility, Marquette was in the god-awful MCC, and Marquette was nowhere near a top 5 (in dollars spent) program.
I will reserve judgment on Wojo for another season, but his "floor" is a lot higher than KO's.
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It has the Dukiet/KO era feeling. It was not all roses with KO. There was a fair amount of criticism of KO in his 3d year. Players did not seem to be developing, the offensive and defensive schemes were questionable, and the Warriors lost at Dayton and were absolutely demolished by Kansas.
In brief, Marquette had a young coach and a young team. The bright spot was that KO brought in consistently good recruiting classes. I second the opinion that there seemed to be some momentum toward the end of the 1991-1992 season.
Wojo had much the same rebuilding project as KO, but then again KO had a much bigger task. In 1989, KO did not have a state-of-the-art athletic facility, Marquette was in the god-awful MCC, and Marquette was nowhere near a top 5 (in dollars spent) program.
I will reserve judgment on Wojo for another season, but his "floor" is a lot higher than KO's.
I agree with you regarding the Wojo / KO comparisons. It is hard for me to remember how I felt back then in his third year however.
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State of the program, fair to poor. Near the bottom of the conference. Lost to one of the two worst teams. Not even close to being in the hunt for the NCAA tourney. If we are talking 'maybe' we have a chance for the NIT then that is state of the program.
Ok, so HE is good. He isn't enough to carry a team at this point consistently. His defense is suspect. He is gone.
As always, it will always hinge on recruiting. What would I be happy with? 23 wins'ish, top 1/3 of the conference, NCAA with an occasional deep run. That would be a good state of the program to me.
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98.58%
Counting Luke as a Junior and Duane as a Sophomore. A little bit of Fool's Gold, ai na?
Now, inexperience at PG is a major issue as is who is starting at PG--the one who never played a minute there in high school and who will be a great 2G. That is a coach decision. Ying and Yang.
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Was watching the Michigan State game this afternoon. Would really be a good role model for us. Izzo has a stready stream of bigs that become solid players as upper classmen who crash the offensive boards and get tip ins , The rest of the team is very focused on moving the ball. The team makes a lot of layups and has wide open looks for 3s. Moves the ball on the break. MSU is getting blue blood results by sticking with this method year after year. Occasionally they get a great recruit, but for the most part they actually develop their players. It has been that way since the Jud Heathcoate era for them.
Assuming HE goes, we still have a decent base to work off of. Luke is a solid senior center, JJJ will be an impactful senior, Duane will continue to be productive, Haanif could be a bona fide star. Rowsey is a proven D1 player who will contribute. Sandy is a question mark but his athleticism and experience should converge into something better next year. Carter is on a steady upward progression should be better as a sophomore.
If Heldt and Anim can make the next step and become bona fide Big East level role players as Sophs we should be ok.
Anything from Hauser or a transfer would be gravy.
In the meantime we have to start stockpiling bigs like MSU. That is what the Xaviers of the world seem to be doing well. Even Creighton seems to consistently come up competitive bigs. This will reduce the reliance on outside shooting.
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Our old facility was great if we were a Horizon League team, not a BEast team. I agree with you that 3 sub par years is wearing on the old timers. Count me among them.
Duke's facility also would be great if they were a Horizon League team. Same with Notre Dame's facility, good for a Big West team.
Ditto Oklahoma's, Baylor's, Gonzaga's, Oregon State's, Colorado's, Washington's, Auburn's, Mississippi State's, etc, etc, etc.
What a bunch of losers, starting with Duke and ND!
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Was watching the Michigan State game this afternoon. Would really be a good role model for us. Izzo has a stready stream of bigs that become solid players as upper classmen who crash the offensive boards and get tip ins , The rest of the team is very focused on moving the ball. The team makes a lot of layups and has wide open looks for 3s. Moves the ball on the break. MSU is getting blue blood results by sticking with this method year after year. Occasionally they get a great recruit, but for the most part they actually develop their players. It has been that way since the Jud Heathcoate era for them.
Assuming HE goes, we still have a decent base to work off of. Luke is a solid senior center, JJJ will be an impactful senior, Duane will continue to be productive, Haanif could be a bona fide star. Rowsey is a proven D1 player who will contribute. Sandy is a question mark but his athleticism and experience should converge into something better next year. Carter is on a steady upward progression should be better as a sophomore.
If Heldt and Anim can make the next step and become bona fide Big East level role players as Sophs we should be ok.
Anything from Hauser or a transfer would be gravy.
In the meantime we have to start stockpiling bigs like MSU. That is what the Xaviers of the world seem to be doing well. Even Creighton seems to consistently come up competitive bigs. This will reduce the reliance on outside shooting.
yes, Creighton does sell in that respect. This year, they have a Top 100 guy 6'11" Jusyim Patton redshirting as well. Too bad we dis not have the luxury of that with Heldt.
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The upperdeck of the student section was empty at tip-off. That's an issue. Young fans are apathetic.
And with regards to youth, we're starting 3 juniors and a McDonald's All-American. Plus we sort of made it easy to leave for a would be senior in STJ.
Yesterday we started
Freshman
Freshman
Sophomore
Junior (who is really a Sophomore and a half because he lost time due to transfer)
Junior
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Counting Luke as a Junior and Duane as a Sophomore. A little bit of Fool's Gold, ai na?
Now, inexperience at PG is a major issue as is who is starting at PG--the one who never played a minute there in high school and who will be a great 2G. That is a coach decision. Ying and Yang.
Luke didn't redshirt so he is a junior no matter how you look at it. Duane I get. But every other team counts their redshirts that way so its still an accurate number.
Definitely agree about the inexperience at PG
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Counting Luke as a Junior and Duane as a Sophomore. A little bit of Fool's Gold, ai na?
Now, inexperience at PG is a major issue as is who is starting at PG--the one who never played a minute there in high school and who will be a great 2G. That is a coach decision. Ying and Yang.
Duane is a Redshirt Sophomore. Luke is a junior, even though he hasn't played the number of games a normal Junior would due to the transfer.
Here's what I think is kind of funny from the Buzz brigade that was on the chat at the end of the game yesterday.
HE isn't here if Buzz is still here. PERIOD.
The players that drive me the most crazy on this team...Duane Wilson....a Buzz recruit. Tremendous talent, but also puts himself in so many spots where he is disadvantage. JJJ...also a lot of talent, but doesn't like to play defense. Sandy Cohen...at times can look pretty good, but has had a sophomore slump IMO. Must get stronger.
Buzz left this team with a lot of misfit toys. He just wasn't a great high school recruiter and our best player wouldn't even be here if he was still here, yet some people want him back (going off the chat room yesterday). SMDH
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I am bullish on the team and program. The admin never gave up on the program. Neither did the fans. Keep pounding.
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And with regards to youth, we're starting 3 juniors and a McDonald's All-American.
If by 3 juniors and an All-American you mean:
2 freshmen
1 sophomore
2 juniors, one of whom has never played a full season and has already set a career-high in minutes with at least 6 games left to play; the other who, through Saturday (game #26), has 23 career starts
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Duane is a Redshirt Sophomore. Luke is a junior, even though he hasn't played the number of games a normal Junior would due to the transfer.
Here's what I think is kind of funny from the Buzz brigade that was on the chat at the end of the game yesterday.
HE isn't here if Buzz is still here. PERIOD.
The players that drive me the most crazy on this team...Duane Wilson....a Buzz recruit. Tremendous talent, but also puts himself in so many spots where he is disadvantage. JJJ...also a lot of talent, but doesn't like to play defense. Sandy Cohen...at times can look pretty good, but has had a sophomore slump IMO. Must get stronger.
Buzz left this team with a lot of misfit toys. He just wasn't a great high school recruiter and our best player wouldn't even be here if he was still here, yet some people want him back (going off the chat room yesterday). SMDH
I wasn't one of the Buzz Brigade spouters so whatever, but I don't like excuses either for the continual brain cramps. St. Mary's, Kentucky, Ohio State, Providence and Seton Hall are all around MU on experience as a note. Lame, and if experience is the final answer then where are the Jucos and transfers like McBuckets Sr. has assembled?
And if those Buzz players (Luke, JJJ, Duane, Deonte, Dawson, Todd, Steve) are/were the issues (counting Nick, Levin and Sandy as Wojo's as he reup'ed or signed them), then you are telling me we are going into yet another year of a rebuild? Basically at scratch again as he didn't House Crean or Buzz Cut as his predecessors did at their new gigs. I am not there but basically you are saying that Wojo made a major mistake keeping Duane, JJJ, Luke and Sandy. That, my friend, is a major condemnation of our current head coach. One I don't share but you are entitled to your own opinion. I want to see a progression of the team. You seem to want to blame a coach from three seasons ago.
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dgies9156
We are from a great era and remember when Xavier was a cupcake on our schedule. They are now so far beyond our program that it makes cringe. There is a tremendous amount of work ahead for this program.
You must being going back to the 80's on that one when they were in the MCC.
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Spin anyway you want, Duane's a junior.
And Luke's a junior.
Just like Wade was a junior when he led us to the FF.
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Spin anyway you want, Duane's a junior.
And Luke's a junior.
Just like Wade was a junior when he led us to the FF.
It's not "spinning" to say Duane is a sophomore. He is exactly that.
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Spin anyway you want, Duane's a junior.
And Luke's a junior.
Just like Wade was a junior when he led us to the FF.
Then what is Creighton's Maurice Watson, who turns 23 in a few weeks?
Duane is a sophomore.
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He's been in a multi million dollar college program for 3 years. That's a junior to me.
And while Buzz wouldn't have landed Henry, he a) never needed a Burger Boy in March and b) Diamond Stone might very well be here.
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No
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He's been in a multi million dollar college program for 3 years. That's a junior to me.
Sounds like you're the one "spinning" because he is *literally* a sophomore.
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Spin anyway you want, Duane's a junior.
And Luke's a junior.
Just like Wade was a junior when he led us to the FF.
No spin, basketball he is a sophomore and it often shows on the court.
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He's been in a multi million dollar college program for 3 years. That's a junior to me.
And while Buzz wouldn't have landed Henry, he a) never needed a Burger Boy in March and b) Diamond Stone might very well be here.
This is why the whole concept of burger boys is a joke. It's a marketing gimmick as much as anything. Buzz had 5 NBA players in the 2011 squad and was the last four teams into the tournament.
Highly rated Wisconsin high school kids still are overrated nationally in my opinion. Way better than they used to be, but not equivalent to the hype or rankings they receive.
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He's been in a multi million dollar college program for 3 years. That's a junior to me.
And while Buzz wouldn't have landed Henry, he a) never needed a Burger Boy in March and b) Diamond Stone might very well be here.
Well as long as he's a junior to you i'm sold! forget the NCAA and their weird regulatory rules.
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This is why the whole concept of burger boys is a joke. It's a marketing gimmick as much as anything. Buzz had 5 NBA players in the 2011 squad and was the last four teams into the tournament.
Highly rated Wisconsin high school kids still are overrated nationally in my opinion. Way better than they used to be, but not equivalent to the hype or rankings they receive.
Are you saying Henry is over rated or Duane?
PS, fine we started
2 juniors
1 red shirt sophomore
1 McDonalds All-American
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Back to the original question... the state of the program now... is right where it's supposed to be.
It would have been a nice surprise if suddenly an elite point guard emerged from our plethora of 2's and probably would be worth 2-3 more wins.
It would also be possible that this team would have lost 3-4 more games.
But it didn't... it's right on target. As for the rest of the season, what happens, happens. Wojo's biggest recruiting job is keeping Henry.
What needs to change:
- recruit a bruising BEAST PF
- pick up a seasoned coaching vet as an "offensive coordinator"
Other than that, this program has integrity, money, great facilities, and a lot of great kids and coaches. Exactly where it's supposed to be!
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Buzz left this team with a lot of misfit toys. He just wasn't a great high school recruiter and our best player wouldn't even be here if he was still here, yet some people want him back (going off the chat room yesterday). SMDH
What's done is done, so arguing about Buzz is a waste of energy at this point. But based on his record here, expressing confusion about why some folks would want him back seems absurdly disingenuous.
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What's done is done, so arguing about Buzz is a waste of energy at this point.
What's done is done? On Scoop? That's the funniest line I've heard in awhile!
T3 sucks. Bert sucks. Deane's a drunk. KO saved us ... until he didn't. Lather, rinse, repeat.
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St. Mary's, Kentucky, Ohio State, Providence and Seton Hall are all around MU on experience as a note.
And if those Buzz players (Luke, JJJ, Duane, Deonte, Dawson, Todd, Steve) are/were the issues (counting Nick, Levin and Sandy as Wojo's as he reup'ed or signed them), then you are telling me we are going into yet another year of a rebuild?
I always forget about Noskowiak & Levin
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Are you saying Henry is over rated or Duane?
PS, fine we started
2 juniors
1 red shirt sophomore
1 McDonalds All-American
We're only starting 4 guys? No wonder we are struggling at times. ;)
Do I think Henry is the 9th best high school player in the country (RSCI)? No. Do I think he is a darn good player? Yes. Do I think Duane Wilson was the 59th best player in the country? Let's just say guys ranked lower than him have impressed me more. Again, I think the young man has great talent, but he also makes a lot of mistakes that a "third year guy" (to use your verbiage) shouldn't be making.
For that matter, JJJ was ranked in RSCI as the 30th best player in the country.
There is a reason why I find pre season basketball rankings and recruiting rankings to be highly comical. They are fun for fans, etc, but so many misses.
Doesn't mean they are bad, not at all. I just don't buy into the hype.
EDIT: HE was rated anywhere from 5th to 23rd. He was consensus #9. I don't know if I would go as low as 23, but I wouldn't have him top 10.
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Here's what I think is kind of funny from the Buzz brigade that was on the chat at the end of the game yesterday.
I dont post on here often but I was probably part of what you consider the Buzz brigade from yesterday's chat.
I was trying to get across that some people trivialized how long a full rebuild can take, especially with the situation our athletic department was in a few years back. I also get irritated when I see posts saying we weren't held accountable under him. To be honest outside of Scoop very few people saw Marquette as dirty under the past regime.
Regarding the topic at hand here's my thought. I'm not sure everybody knew what to expect when we took on a full rebuild of the program. A good example of a similar program rebuild is at Iowa. McCaffrey took over a team decimated by roster turnover. It took two years to get to the NIT, 4 years to get to the play-in NCAA game, 5 years to win an NCAA game, and 6 to fight for the top of the conference. We should be aligning our expectations with that type of schedule for our rebuild.
I actually think Wojo and crew are about a year ahead of schedule regarding their rebuild. The team is winning some good games and is far better than last year. But on the other hand, there isn't any real depth this year and they still seem too inconsistent. We'll get there but not for a while.
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I wasn't one of the Buzz Brigade spouters so whatever, but I don't like excuses either for the continual brain cramps. St. Mary's, Kentucky, Ohio State, Providence and Seton Hall are all around MU on experience as a note. Lame, and if experience is the final answer then where are the Jucos and transfers like McBuckets Sr. has assembled?
And if those Buzz players (Luke, JJJ, Duane, Deonte, Dawson, Todd, Steve) are/were the issues (counting Nick, Levin and Sandy as Wojo's as he reup'ed or signed them), then you are telling me we are going into yet another year of a rebuild? Basically at scratch again as he didn't House Crean or Buzz Cut as his predecessors did at their new gigs. I am not there but basically you are saying that Wojo made a major mistake keeping Duane, JJJ, Luke and Sandy. That, my friend, is a major condemnation of our current head coach. One I don't share but you are entitled to your own opinion. I want to see a progression of the team. You seem to want to blame a coach from three seasons ago.
Not saying that at all. I believe Duane, JJJ, Luke are all good players, but they still play young. Will they be able to take it to the next gear? Actually, Luke plays mature, but he has limitations.
Now, do I think Duane or JJJ are top 60 players like their HS ratings suggested? No.
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I dont post on here often but I was probably part of what you consider the Buzz brigade from yesterday's chat.
I was trying to get across that some people trivialized how long a full rebuild can take, especially with the situation our athletic department was in a few years back. I also get irritated when I see posts saying we weren't held accountable under him. To be honest outside of Scoop very few people saw Marquette as dirty under the past regime.
Regarding the topic at hand here's my thought. I'm not sure everybody knew what to expect when we took on a full rebuild of the program. A good example of a similar program rebuild is at Iowa. McCaffrey took over a team decimated by roster turnover. It took two years to get to the NIT, 4 years to get to the play-in NCAA game, 5 years to win an NCAA game, and 6 to fight for the top of the conference. We should be aligning our expectations with that type of schedule for our rebuild.
I actually think Wojo and crew are about a year ahead of schedule regarding their rebuild. The team is winning some good games and is far better than last year. But on the other hand, there isn't any real depth this year and they still seem too inconsistent. We'll get there but not for a while.
Fair points, appreciate the response.
I agree with you entirely that many people do not and still don't understand how long a rebuild happens. If you go back and look at the predictions for this year, there was crazy crazy talk by people. Like unhinged talk. Some of us were much more level headed, but I was worried then that people were out of their heads with expectations.
This is why when I hear the love for KO I have to chuckle. It took him 4 years to get to the dance, against much weaker competition and not having a powerhouse program in our backyard. How soon we forget.
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Fair points, appreciate the response.
I agree with you entirely that many people do not and still don't understand how long a rebuild happens. If you go back and look at the predictions for this year, there was crazy crazy talk by people. Like unhinged talk. Some of us were much more level headed, but I was worried then that people were out of their heads with expectations.
This is why when I hear the love for KO I have to chuckle. It took him 4 years to get to the dance, against much weaker competition and not having a powerhouse program in our backyard. How soon we forget.
The love for KO was because he revived us from the near death experience of Dukiet and by the end of his tenure with us restored us to where we believed we were entitled to be. At the time we imploded it was truly a shock to everyone.
I knew the it was the beginning of the end when I was sitting in the stands at Market Square arena against Miami in 78. but had no idea we would fall so hard . I thought we should have recruited Dick Vitale after he found out he wasnt an NBA coach. So even though I think KO made a mistake by leaving I am forever grateful for the work he did to revive the program.
We were nowhere near a near death experience when Buzz left. Yes he left on bad terms but the cupboard was not completely bare. It is a historical fact that both Buzz and Wojo put their faith in Derrick at PG and that obviously was a disaster, but absent that one position we were not in bad shape at all. Wojo made a decision to get rid of Todd, Deonte, Taylor and Dawson for the greater good of the program. That plus the false start on Levin hurt us in the short term. Looking at who we have plus the pipeline it is pretty clear we will back on track toward most peoples expectations next year.
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Wojo made a decision to get rid of Todd, Deonte, Taylor and Dawson for the greater good of the program.
I agree with the rest of your post but not this. Wojo did nit make a decision to get rid of any of these guys. Especially not Todd. That decision was made for him.
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Regarding the topic at hand here's my thought. I'm not sure everybody knew what to expect when we took on a full rebuild of the program. A good example of a similar program rebuild is at Iowa. McCaffrey took over a team decimated by roster turnover. It took two years to get to the NIT, 4 years to get to the play-in NCAA game, 5 years to win an NCAA game, and 6 to fight for the top of the conference. We should be aligning our expectations with that type of schedule for our rebuild.
Strong point, strong post.
You should post here on Scoop more often.
Oh, and if you get tired of the basketball chat, you can always do some posting on the political board. That way you can really learn how stupid you are, at least according to our resident geniuses!
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The love for KO was because he revived us from the near death experience of Dukiet and by the end of his tenure with us restored us to where we believed we were entitled to be. At the time we imploded it was truly a shock to everyone.
I knew the it was the beginning of the end when I was sitting in the stands at Market Square arena against Miami in 78. but had no idea we would fall so hard . I thought we should have recruited Dick Vitale after he found out he wasnt an NBA coach. So even though I think KO made a mistake by leaving I am forever grateful for the work he did to revive the program.
We were nowhere near a near death experience when Buzz left. Yes he left on bad terms but the cupboard was not completely bare. It is a historical fact that both Buzz and Wojo put their faith in Derrick at PG and that obviously was a disaster, but absent that one position we were not in bad shape at all. Wojo made a decision to get rid of Todd, Deonte, Taylor and Dawson for the greater good of the program. That plus the false start on Levin hurt us in the short term. Looking at who we have plus the pipeline it is pretty clear we will back on track toward most peoples expectations next year.
Well said. While Buzz's last year was a major disappointment, enough of pretending it was an excuse to miss the tourney the next three years. What does it matter that Buzz wouldn't have gotten Henry if he surrounded him with a bubble NIT team?
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That plus the false start on Levin hurt us in the short term. Looking at who we have plus the pipeline it is pretty clear we will back on track toward most peoples expectations next year.
I think it is going to take another year. I would like to see Wojo make some changes - and hopefully we can accelerate things. But my expectation this year was NIT and in the conversation for bubble. I think now that is likely where we are next year.
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I could see us better with lower expectations next year. The BEast will be slightly down and we will win more games and less frustrating losses, but I don't think we have the side where Ellenson can take over a few games for a run in the tourney.
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I am encouraged by this year. One underappreciated strength of Buzz was keeping experience levels on the team consistent -- but he had the benefit of starting with a senior-led team and a full cupboard (Butler and Hayward). Wojo came in with a less full cupboard and has recruited his ass off. The team is young and inconsistent and it feels a bit like 2 first years in a row, but I am really impressed with the play of the freshmen and, Wojo's 2nd recruiting class, and think we're basically on the right track.
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Duane is a Redshirt Sophomore. Luke is a junior, even though he hasn't played the number of games a normal Junior would due to the transfer.
Here's what I think is kind of funny from the Buzz brigade that was on the chat at the end of the game yesterday.
HE isn't here if Buzz is still here. PERIOD.
The players that drive me the most crazy on this team...Duane Wilson....a Buzz recruit. Tremendous talent, but also puts himself in so many spots where he is disadvantage. JJJ...also a lot of talent, but doesn't like to play defense. Sandy Cohen...at times can look pretty good, but has had a sophomore slump IMO. Must get stronger.
Buzz left this team with a lot of misfit toys. He just wasn't a great high school recruiter and our best player wouldn't even be here if he was still here, yet some people want him back (going off the chat room yesterday). SMDH
Buzz did more with less than any coach in MU history. Turned 3 and 2 star recruits into nba all stars. Turned Gardner into a beast
You must work for the search firm that reccomended WOJO. Your defense of him is insane
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It's not "spinning" to say Duane is a sophomore. He is exactly that.
he has been with program 3 years; junior
Just like happ at UW is a soph
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This is why the whole concept of burger boys is a joke. It's a marketing gimmick as much as anything. Buzz had 5 NBA players in the 2011 squad and was the last four teams into the tournament.
Highly rated Wisconsin high school kids still are overrated nationally in my opinion. Way better than they used to be, but not equivalent to the hype or rankings they receive.
Those 5 nba players were self made. They ate at McDonald's. They werent burger boys
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Fair points, appreciate the response.
I agree with you entirely that many people do not and still don't understand how long a rebuild happens. If you go back and look at the predictions for this year, there was crazy crazy talk by people. Like unhinged talk. Some of us were much more level headed, but I was worried then that people were out of their heads with expectations.
This is why when I hear the love for KO I have to chuckle. It took him 4 years to get to the dance, against much weaker competition and not having a powerhouse program in our backyard. How soon we forget.
Stevens, Mack, Archie Miller. All coaches who lead teams to great results a year into "rebuild"
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Strong point, strong post.
You should post here on Scoop more often.
Oh, and if you get tired of the basketball chat, you can always do some posting on the political board. That way you can really learn how stupid you are, at least according to our resident geniuses!
Iowa has football which means that fans are going to be more patient. We dont have the luxury to be patient. We have a McDonald's AA this year!!! The fact that we wasted it hurts bad. Cal did not waste it with their McDonald's AA
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Iowa has football which means that fans are going to be more patient. We dont have the luxury to be patient. We have a McDonald's AA this year!!! The fact that we wasted it hurts bad. Cal did not waste it with their McDonald's AA
Too silly to even debate.
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Stevens, Mack, Archie Miller. All coaches who lead teams to great results a year into "rebuild"
None of those were rebuilds like MU had.
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he has been with program 3 years; junior
Just like happ at UW is a soph
Are we really going to argue that a player who is listed as a sophomore on the roster and is considered a sophomore by NCAA standards is really a junior?
There are a lot of dumb arguments around here, but asserting that someone who is actually defined as a "sophomore" isn't a "sophomore" is really, really dumb.
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he has been with program 3 years; junior
Just like happ at UW is a soph
LOL. Yeah, Nate has the classification right, MU, the NCAA, everyone else has it wrong. Good one
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Buzz did more with less than any coach in MU history. Turned 3 and 2 star recruits into nba all stars. Turned Gardner into a beast
You must work for the search firm that reccomended WOJO. Your defense of him is insane
What happened to Gardner the beast his senior year? Actually Wojo wasn't the guy on my list, I wanted an existing coach, but MU never gets an existing coach unless it is someone like Mike Deane...so you're wrong again.
As for the 2 and 3 star recruits he turned into NBA all-stars? Buzz did a fine job with many players, he also did other things that I'm glad he is gone for.
Jimmy Butler was offered by Kentucky, let's not pretend he didn't have a ton of talent. He was also a junior college All American. Again, you make it sound like he never picked up a basketball before.
Jae Crowder. Came to Marquette as the Junior College Player of the year. Again, he was a damn good player before even got to MU. Does that mean Buzz didn't help him? Of course it doesn't...Buzz did a great job, but my God give it a break.
DJO. Another Junior College All American. Another player that arrived at MU very highly regarded and was offered by Kansas and others.
Dwight Buycks....another Junior College All American. Offers from Iowa State, etc, etc. Again, please stop.
I could go on, but you are telling half truths or just flat out forgot the realities of how good these players were before the set foot on the MU campus.
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Those 5 nba players were self made. They ate at McDonald's. They werent burger boys
Wait, you just got done telling us Buzz made them. Now you're telling us they were self made. Which is it? You need to get your story together.
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Stevens, Mack, Archie Miller. All coaches who lead teams to great results a year into "rebuild"
Is this a serious post, or is the day off for you on President's Day have you thinking Washington and Lincoln and not hoops?
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Wait, you just got done telling us Buzz made them. Now you're telling us they were self made. Which is it? You need to get your story together.
I should run for political office :)
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Iowa has football which means that fans are going to be more patient. We dont have the luxury to be patient. We have a McDonald's AA this year!!! The fact that we wasted it hurts bad. Cal did not waste it with their McDonald's AA
I wish I was a fly on the wall during the KO era, you must have literally lost your mind during that rebuild....literally.
LSU has TWO McDonald's All Americans from the 2015 class and right now, they aren't making the NCAA tournament...including the consensus best player in the country. But hey, they have football, so it's all good.
UNLV, wasting their McDonald's All American
Mississippi State, wasting their McDonald's All American
UCLA, wasting their multiple McDonald's All Americans
So on and so forth
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I should run for political office :)
Yes, you should! :D
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Let me summarize so we can move on and debate other things:
1) A lot of us are disappointed this year. We have a Burger Boy and a Top 10 recruiting class. We see what John Calipari does with teams of freshmen and wonder why Coach Wojo can't do the same with Team Henry.
2) Some of us, myself included, are graduates from the Al years. Many in this group think it is our God-given right to have an NCAA tournament berth. When we don't get it, we need to blame someone. That someone is Coach Wojo, for not being Calipari.
3) Some of us were graduates from the Dukiet/Deane era and we think Marquette has trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time. We were very angry over the Wojo hire as we don't understand why we didn't get Roy Williams, Rick Pitino, Coach K, Billy Donavan, Shaka, Tom Izzo, the Huggy Bear etc. A few of us would like God to do that three-day trick he did about 2000 years ago and bring Al back (yes, I'd like that too, but he probably would do TV if he did).
4) We're an impatient lot. We live in Illinois, Wisconsin, Michigan and Minnesota. Marquette basketball saves us from total insanity. Without Marquette basketball, we have to count the days until the snow melts and the lake turns from white to blue. Some of us are liberal arts majors who have trouble counting that high!
Seriously, we all agree the inconsistency is driving us nuts. We see what can be and we face what. Unfortunately, we probably aren't where we hoped to be when Henry came here and we can debate why, but it's immaterial. Instead, we can hope either Henry comes back or Coach Wojo finds someone who can make the team go next year if Henry leaves.
That's about it!
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What I've learned this year.
1. Buzz could have had it worse. I think everyone appreciated the 3-amigo season, but having Lazar was a huge advantage. It really blunted the terror of what we are living through now - that combined with his JUCO/grad transfer strategy allowed us to not miss a beat. Imagine if we didn't have Carlino last year...yikes.
2. It sucks watching young players losing
3. There always is a place for JUCOs/Grad Transfers - the reality is that it is really hard to get experienced in today's college basketball with the expectations for playing time with these kids.
4. We probably have another year of this
I am encouraged by the players and think Wojo could make some coaching changes to his advantage. I sure hope #3 is a priority because that in my mind is the only way to accelerate things and not have #4 come true.
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I've been laughing for days as some (mostly Chico, no surprise) make up stuff about Marquette basketball past and present. We're in a "long rebuild" because in year two all Wojo has left from the Buzz era is Luke Fischer, Duane Wilson and JJJ. And all he'll have left in year three will be (again) Fischer, Wilson and JJJ. And all he'll have left in year four is Wilson. Not great, I'll concede. But what did Buzz Williams have left from the Crean era in years two, three and four of his "rebuild"? In year two, Lazar, Cubilllan and Acker. In year three, nobody. In year four, nobody. That "rebuild" went to the NCAAs with Lazar, David and Mo and to consecutive Sweet 16s with zero leftovers - and to the Elite 8 (and a Big East regular season championship) the following year.
We're not coming out of the Dark Ages of Marquette hoops like we had to under KO. That comparison is moronic. Wojo inherited a program that had one down year (9-9 in the Big East) after it's second best run in school history. He expects to win today or he wouldn't be going after grad transfers, Jucos and one and dones. As I've said before, Wojo faced a tough situation in year one and gets a mulligan - but the hill he had/has to climb in years two, three and four is no steeper than the one his predecessor faced. Last year was understandable. This year's a disappointment. Next year? Fingers crossed.
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I think the pressure will really be on for next year. Assuming HE leaves and Wojo isn't able to come up with a viable PF replacement by May, I truly believe season ticket sales will drop to approximately 10,000. It may be true that next year's team will over perform but Scholl and Lovell will have to take note of the empty building they'll find themselves in. Because when the building is empty, alumni fundraising dries up significantly.
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I think the pressure will really be on for next year. Assuming HE leaves and Wojo isn't able to come up with a viable PF replacement by May, I truly believe season ticket sales will drop to approximately 10,000. It may be true that next year's team will over perform but Scholl and Lovell will have to take note of the empty building they'll find themselves in. Because when the building is empty, alumni fundraising dries up significantly.
10,000 isn't empty? If it happens, it happens. We've been down this road before and recovered.
Those that would drop their tickets are short term season ticket holders anyway, because they have very little to lose. Not well heeled donors.
End of the day, Wojo was just extended, this is the direction the university has chosen. MU has gotten better this year.
As for the comments by some other posters here about KO, long rebuilds, etc. Timing and situations matter. Some of those posters never do get that. Sure, when KO took over MU was at the bottom, but the jump up was also insanely easier than it is today. The MCC. No Wisconsin basketball tradition of any kind. Again...the MCC. Even then it took 4 years to do anything, and there was some BRUTAL basketball in those three years. Expectations were also different since we were at bottom.
Now comes Wojo, not my first choice, but I'm going to back him for at least two more years. He inherits a roster of "highly rated" players that have yet to play high rated hoops, whether that was for Buzz or Wojo. JJJ was consensus top 40 player in the nation. Does anyone really believe this? He's a good player, but top 40 good? Buzz couldn't get Duane or JJJ going, Wojo has made some progress, but both of them still need to earn that rating. I don't know if they will. I hope so, but it feels to me that the ratings, at least thus far, were to optimistic. Luke Fischer....it's funny. I don't know if it is the typical anti-TC thing here or what. But watching people slobber over Luke was interesting. Great kid, solid player, but the overhype was ridiculous. He is what he is. A solid basketball player that will get a little better year by year. He is never going to be in the NBA (I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't see it), but will make a nice pay check overseas. So forgive me if these three guys are somehow supposed to be the anchor of some crazy great nucleus...they simply are not. Sandy Cohen isn't either. Besides, it's college ball...and point guards are key. Something our predecessor didn't really give a rip about and left that position massively bare.
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Now comes Wojo, not my first choice, but I'm going to back him for at least two more years. He inherits a roster of "highly rated" players that have yet to play high rated hoops, whether that was for Buzz or Wojo. JJJ was consensus top 40 player in the nation. Does anyone really believe this? He's a good player, but top 40 good? Buzz couldn't get Duane or JJJ going, Wojo has made some progress, but both of them still need to earn that rating. I don't know if they will. I hope so, but it feels to me that the ratings, at least thus far, were to optimistic. Luke Fischer....it's funny. I don't know if it is the typical anti-TC thing here or what. But watching people slobber over Luke was interesting. Great kid, solid player, but the overhype was ridiculous. He is what he is. A solid basketball player that will get a little better year by year. He is never going to be in the NBA (I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't see it), but will make a nice pay check overseas. So forgive me if these three guys are somehow supposed to be the anchor of some crazy great nucleus...they simply are not. Sandy Cohen isn't either. Besides, it's college ball...and point guards are key. Something our predecessor didn't really give a rip about and left that position massively bare.
I agree with most of this post. Although, Duane never played an actual game for Buzz.
JJJ was an overrated recruit, no doubt. It's taken him a while to really find his footing but he appears to be getting there. Next season should be interesting for him. I could see him being the leading scorer or as the 8th man.
Cohen is a 6'6" spot-up shooter (who is currently looking for his shot). There is a place for him as a contributor at this level, but this team is not the best fit for him right now.
Luke is a legit big man from Wisconsin. MU hadn't had a legit center in years and fans typically overestimate their in-state recruits, especially bigs (see Heldt, Matt). The fact that he left Crean was going to make it all the more sweet when he became an All-American at MU.
Just out of curiousity, who was your first choice for head coach?
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I wish I was a fly on the wall during the KO era, you must have literally lost your mind during that rebuild....literally.
LSU has TWO McDonald's All Americans from the 2015 class and right now, they aren't making the NCAA tournament...including the consensus best player in the country. But hey, they have football, so it's all good.
UNLV, wasting their McDonald's All American
Mississippi State, wasting their McDonald's All American
UCLA, wasting their multiple McDonald's All Americans
So on and so forth
For us it is a waste. All the other schools you listed are always in the running for Burger Boys. This is our first one since Kerry Trotter. So when we get the chance to have a burger boy we need to capitalize or else it feels wasted.
The truth is that the actualy reality is somewhere between your "Wojo is great and runs a clean program just give him time"and my "Win at all cost bring back buzz cause they played tough" The fact that Madison never seems to rebuild even in a "rebuild" year is really upsetting. As far as programs go we have fallen so far below Madison that it makes me ill. When buzz was here I would argue we were their equal if not just a touch better. I would say the same thing under Crean.
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But what did Buzz Williams have left from the Crean era in years two, three and four of his "rebuild"? In year two, Lazar, Cubilllan and Acker. In year three, nobody. In year four, nobody. That "rebuild" went to the NCAAs with Lazar, David and Mo and to consecutive Sweet 16s with zero leftovers - and to the Elite 8 (and a Big East regular season championship) the following year.
Yup, Buzz did a great job at MU. He's not here anymore...
We're not coming out of the Dark Ages of Marquette hoops like we had to under KO. That comparison is moronic.
We need to accept that the situation in 2014 was far worse than it appears. When and how the head coach left were very bad for the program. There was no remaining staff around for program continuity. Buzz leaving for a lowly VT program painted a bad picture about our brand in general. The athletic department and university leadership were more or less in disarray. I can't think of many coaches who could represent the university well, put the pieces of the team back together, and win at a high level right away. None of those coaches would be excited to take a job at MU with how things were in 2014.
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Yup, Buzz did a great job at MU. He's not here anymore...
We need to accept that the situation in 2014 was far worse than it appears. When and how the head coach left were very bad for the program. There was no remaining staff around for program continuity. Buzz leaving for a lowly VT program painted a bad picture about our brand in general. The athletic department and university leadership were more or less in disarray. I can't think of many coaches who could represent the university well, put the pieces of the team back together, and win at a high level right away. None of those coaches would be excited to take a job at MU with how things were in 2014.
Not to mention the cupboard was bare basketball wise. The most experienced players weren't very talented or were complete f*ck ups (Mayo), and the most talented (as determined by HS ratings) weren't very experienced.
Wojo didn't have anything close to the Amigos his first year. He doesn't have anyone resembling Lazar this year. He has a very inexperienced team, and he is an inexperienced coach. There is a reason that our players have been over matched at times, and there are reasons why Wojo has looked overmatched himself. That doesn't mean he is a bad coach.
There is a reason you don't see D1 assistants take high major jobs as their first gigs. Cuonzo Martin started at Southwest Missouri. Ben Howland started at Northern Arizona. Wojo is starting here.
I agree that in retrospect this was a harder job than I think it looked when he got here. Much more difficult situation than when Buzz got here.
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I certainly don't pretend to know what was going on, but when a newly invoked university president, athletics director, and then the head men's coach depart within short period of time, that's going to cause a major disruption to the program. Buzz's teams had a nice run, but the state of program was torched on the way out.
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Not to mention the cupboard was bare basketball wise. The most experienced players weren't very talented or were complete f*ck ups (Mayo), and the most talented (as determined by HS ratings) weren't very experienced.
Wojo didn't have anything close to the Amigos his first year. He doesn't have anyone resembling Lazar this year. He has a very inexperienced team, and he is an inexperienced coach. There is a reason that our players have been over matched at times, and there are reasons why Wojo has looked overmatched himself. That doesn't mean he is a bad coach.
There is a reason you don't see D1 assistants take high major jobs as their first gigs. Cuonzo Martin started at Southwest Missouri. Ben Howland started at Northern Arizona. Wojo is starting here.
I agree that in retrospect this was a harder job than I think it looked when he got here. Much more difficult situation than when Buzz got here.
Very good analysis. Also in the previous comment by dinger. And by Chicos earlier.
As for whether this season has been a "waste" ... not for me. With a few exceptions, I've enjoyed watching the team. Mrs. MU82 and I loved our Brooklyn trip. We had a blast getting together with other Warriors for Wisconsin and Providence watching events.
The team has gotten better, but yes, it has been a two-steps-forward-one-step-back deal. It's been frustrating at times. But it's sports, it's entertainment, it isn't life. And I refuse to get my undies in a bundle because of basketball results.
Go Warriors!
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Not to mention the cupboard was bare basketball wise. The most experienced players weren't very talented or were complete f*ck ups (Mayo), and the most talented (as determined by HS ratings) weren't very experienced.
Wojo didn't have anything close to the Amigos his first year. He doesn't have anyone resembling Lazar this year. He has a very inexperienced team, and he is an inexperienced coach. There is a reason that our players have been over matched at times, and there are reasons why Wojo has looked overmatched himself. That doesn't mean he is a bad coach.
There is a reason you don't see D1 assistants take high major jobs as their first gigs. Cuonzo Martin started at Southwest Missouri. Ben Howland started at Northern Arizona. Wojo is starting here.
I agree that in retrospect this was a harder job than I think it looked when he got here. Much more difficult situation than when Buzz got here.
Well said
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Yup, Buzz did a great job at MU. He's not here anymore...
We need to accept that the situation in 2014 was far worse than it appears. When and how the head coach left were very bad for the program. There was no remaining staff around for program continuity. Buzz leaving for a lowly VT program painted a bad picture about our brand in general. The athletic department and university leadership were more or less in disarray. I can't think of many coaches who could represent the university well, put the pieces of the team back together, and win at a high level right away. None of those coaches would be excited to take a job at MU with how things were in 2014.
Thanks for quoting Lenny. "Dark ages of MU basketball"....LOL. Yes, and that ultra tough jump to compete in the MCC to get out of it. You hit the nail on the head when Buzzard left MU for a PAY CUT.
Let me state that again....left MU for a PAY CUT to go to one of the worst programs in the ACC. That does wonders for a program. His last year, when picked to win the Big East, couldn't even go to the NIT because of how piss poor he did. Couldn't land the right kind of high school recruits...Mayo....oh if you only knew. Buzz did great with other people's talent....inherited or ready made JUCO talent. He is GREAT at that. Finding kids that need work and to be molded, not so much.
We are where we are...making progress, in a very tough league (5X what KO's league was), getting good kids. We shall see how it goes.
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Very good analysis. Also in the previous comment by dinger. And by Chicos earlier.
As for whether this season has been a "waste" ... not for me. With a few exceptions, I've enjoyed watching the team. Mrs. MU82 and I loved our Brooklyn trip. We had a blast getting together with other Warriors for Wisconsin and Providence watching events.
The team has gotten better, but yes, it has been a two-steps-forward-one-step-back deal. It's been frustrating at times. But it's sports, it's entertainment, it isn't life. And I refuse to get my undies in a bundle because of basketball results.
Go Warriors!
Also well said
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I agree with most of this post. Although, Duane never played an actual game for Buzz.
JJJ was an overrated recruit, no doubt. It's taken him a while to really find his footing but he appears to be getting there. Next season should be interesting for him. I could see him being the leading scorer or as the 8th man.
Cohen is a 6'6" spot-up shooter (who is currently looking for his shot). There is a place for him as a contributor at this level, but this team is not the best fit for him right now.
Luke is a legit big man from Wisconsin. MU hadn't had a legit center in years and fans typically overestimate their in-state recruits, especially bigs (see Heldt, Matt). The fact that he left Crean was going to make it all the more sweet when he became an All-American at MU.
Just out of curiousity, who was your first choice for head coach?
Correct, he didn't but we also know he didn't have to redshirt that first year either, but that decision was made in mid to late December.
I agree on Luke, he is a legit big man, that's why IU went after him. But in my view that is what he is. A good, solid big man. Not a savior, not some of the silliness that was talked about last year here. He will continue to get better. Seems like a rock solid individual, I'm THRILLED he is on MU's team. Believe me. I just think from a hoops standpoint, he is the type of kid that will have a very solid college basketball career and then he's off to Europe. Hope I'm wrong.
My choice? I was certainly excited about DONE DEAL...I think everyone was. I'm just not wild about all the on the job training hires we do, but I've just accepted it as that's the direction we will continue to take. It has worked out very well for us most times, but it comes with the hair being pulled out. I would have loved a Lon Kruger from UNLV. , but OU had already got him. I've loved Gregg Marshall since I first met him years ago at Winthrop...spent some time with him at MU during the First Bank Classic and watched his career. He's not going anywhere. When Bill Self was in the First Bank Classic at Tulsa, you knew that guy had stardom written all over him. In some ways, I see Wojo in that space, but jury is still out. He'll have to learn on the job, it's what MU does.
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For us it is a waste. All the other schools you listed are always in the running for Burger Boys. This is our first one since Kerry Trotter. So when we get the chance to have a burger boy we need to capitalize or else it feels wasted.
The truth is that the actualy reality is somewhere between your "Wojo is great and runs a clean program just give him time"and my "Win at all cost bring back buzz cause they played tough" The fact that Madison never seems to rebuild even in a "rebuild" year is really upsetting. As far as programs go we have fallen so far below Madison that it makes me ill. When buzz was here I would argue we were their equal if not just a touch better. I would say the same thing under Crean.
Think about all those years we didn't get one, and did just fine. Madison went 54 years without doing anything. They are far from a lock to go to this year's tournament, but who knows. They are the state school, a budget that is massively larger than our athletic department, they are on every Saturday in the fall, the state rallies behind them because you live in a provincial state where that kind of stuff goes on. Is what it is. You're going to worry yourself sick by it.
Butler will never be IU in terms of passion in the state. Xavier will never be Ohio State in terms of passion. MU will never be Wisconsin in terms of passion. Georgetown will never be Maryland in terms of passion by the masses in Maryland. That's ok, I have no problem being a MU, a G'Town, Xavier, Butler, etc.
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Very good analysis. Also in the previous comment by dinger. And by Chicos earlier.
As for whether this season has been a "waste" ... not for me. With a few exceptions, I've enjoyed watching the team. Mrs. MU82 and I loved our Brooklyn trip. We had a blast getting together with other Warriors for Wisconsin and Providence watching events.
The team has gotten better, but yes, it has been a two-steps-forward-one-step-back deal. It's been frustrating at times. But it's sports, it's entertainment, it isn't life. And I refuse to get my undies in a bundle because of basketball results.
Go Warriors!
We might be getting better but our rivals are getting better faster than we are
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To my thinking WOJO has talented kids with zero basketball IQ. Once he figures out these kids need to understand how to play together and let the game come to them we will do very well.
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We might be getting better but our rivals are getting better faster than we are
Life is so difficult being a Warriors fan. Pretty much time to bug out and start rooting for UW-Green Bay.
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Thanks for quoting Lenny. "Dark ages of MU basketball"....LOL. Yes, and that ultra tough jump to compete in the MCC to get out of it. You hit the nail on the head when Buzzard left MU for a PAY CUT.
Buzz did great with other people's talent....inherited or ready made JUCO talent. He is GREAT at that. Finding kids that need work and to be molded, not so much.
Nice try. In Buzz's 5th year zero non qualifiers/Jucos, one graduate transfer and one guy who spent his freshman year on the bench at Oregon. Went to the Elite 8. Conversely, the only time in nine years TC did anything in the tournament more than 40% of our points and rebounds came from a Mississippi St transfer (by way of MPS) and a prop 48 - two guys, in your words, who didn't belong in Marquette's parking lot academically.
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Until Marquette finds a good coach, they will be stuck in mediocrity.
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Until Marquette finds a good coach, they will be stuck in mediocrity.
Great point. It's the ongoing comparisons, that some seem to translate to personal self worth, that confound me.
Self bump!
Say hello to your horribly low sense of self worth for me.
If you want to understand how to utilize a Marquette education please let me know (PM me if you need)
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I've been laughing for days as some (mostly Chico, no surprise) make up stuff about Marquette basketball past and present. We're in a "long rebuild" because in year two all Wojo has left from the Buzz era is Luke Fischer, Duane Wilson and JJJ. And all he'll have left in year three will be (again) Fischer, Wilson and JJJ. And all he'll have left in year four is Wilson. Not great, I'll concede. But what did Buzz Williams have left from the Crean era in years two, three and four of his "rebuild"? In year two, Lazar, Cubilllan and Acker. In year three, nobody. In year four, nobody. That "rebuild" went to the NCAAs with Lazar, David and Mo and to consecutive Sweet 16s with zero leftovers - and to the Elite 8 (and a Big East regular season championship) the following year.
I would take Acker, Cubillion, and Hayward over JJJ, Duane, and Luke any day of the week. Heck, I might take Hayward by himself over JJJ, Duane, and Luke. Buzz still had the advantage over Wojo in year two. In year three and beyond, I agree with you. My expectation for Wojo was back in the NCAAs by year 3. If he doesn't deliver, than the seat starts to become warm. If he doesn't get us back by year 4, then I'm ready to move on.
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I would take Acker, Cubillion, and Hayward over JJJ, Duane, and Luke any day of the week. Heck, I might take Hayward by himself over JJJ, Duane, and Luke. Buzz still had the advantage over Wojo in year two. In year three and beyond, I agree with you. My expectation for Wojo was back in the NCAAs by year 3. If he doesn't deliver, than the seat starts to become warm. If he doesn't get us back by year 4, then I'm ready to move on.
Agreed on all counts. I don't think people remember what a damn good basketball player Lazar was. Maybe it's because he flamed out in the NBA, or maybe its because he has been overshadowed by Butler and Jae, but he's the second leading scorer in the history of Marquette basketball. And he could guard the post better than any of our current bigs can. Not to mention I think he was able to impart the "ways of the Big East" to a guy like Jimmy Butler.
There is no one on this current roster right now anywhere close to as good as Lazar. (Henry would be if he sticks around.)
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There is no one on this current roster right now anywhere close to...Lazar.
(http://alyssagoodnight.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/seance-berlin-1930s.jpg)
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Lazar picked up by the D League LA Defenders. Teammates with Vander.
http://dleague.nba.com/player/lazar-hayward/
Marquette West
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I would take Acker, Cubillion, and Hayward over JJJ, Duane, and Luke any day of the week. Heck, I might take Hayward by himself over JJJ, Duane, and Luke. Buzz still had the advantage over Wojo in year two. In year three and beyond, I agree with you. My expectation for Wojo was back in the NCAAs by year 3. If he doesn't deliver, than the seat starts to become warm. If he doesn't get us back by year 4, then I'm ready to move on.
Agreed on all counts.
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Lazar picked up by the D League LA Defenders. Teammates with Vander.
http://dleague.nba.com/player/lazar-hayward/
Marquette West
Are D-Leaguers still making $30,000 a year? Got to be tough to support family on that living in LA
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Are D-Leaguers still making $30,000 a year? Got to be tough to support family on that living in LA
I dont think they even make that. They have three tiers of salary plus a housing allowance.
http://dleaguedigest.com/2015/07/29/assessing-the-nba-d-league-salary-structure/
It is why guys like Buycks opt to play overseas.
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Are D-Leaguers still making $30,000 a year? Got to be tough to support family on that living in LA
Lazar made over $3M off his NBA contracts. Hopefully he invested wisely.
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I dont think they even make that. They have three tiers of salary plus a housing allowance.
http://dleaguedigest.com/2015/07/29/assessing-the-nba-d-league-salary-structure/
Wow, thanks for sharing. Very interesting.
And then the housing ends once the season ends in guessing? I wonder what the housing is like in the first place also
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Wow, thanks for sharing. Very interesting.
And then the housing ends once the season ends in guessing? I wonder what the housing is like in the first place also
I think with these guys the housing doesn't matter , they are playing basketball year round chasing their dream. I seem to remember a story about Vander accumulating 300 pair of shoes during his travels.
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I think with these guys the housing doesn't matter , they are playing basketball year round chasing their dream. I seem to remember a story about Vander accumulating 300 pair of shoes during his travels.
Very true. Per Spotrac Vander made $14,000 on Defenders last season.