I for one have not been a Traci Carter fan until what happened today. Am I wrong or is this a one game wonder? I hope not. Maybe this game will give him some
needed confidence. Scoring point guards are really important in college, today as much as I like how Henry played, played like a lottery pick, Carter was the difference.
Good looks that he knocked down. Keep it up, and MU might be OK down the stretch. Now Luke has to play with more passion. Not sure how a big like him did not
score a point. Shows you how much Carters 3's made the difference. Good going. Seton Hall and Creighton twice will either make or break the season.
I would not expect that kind of shooting out of Traci the rest of the season. He was really hot. And I don't think he has to shoot like that. He just has to be a threat and hit wide open 3s. That will keep the defense from sagging. The part of his game that he now must develop is his ability to get in the lane and finish when its there. Junior wasn't a great shooter but he could shoot when he needed to. However he could beat his man off he dribble and finish at the rim. Then the help has to come over and that will leave HE and Fish open for easy slams. MU shot the lights out today and Butler didn't BUT Butler was in the game because of all the "and ones" they made off drives. 3 point shooting goes hot and cold but a 1 footer with a guy fouling you from behind NEVER goes cold.
I think Traci will be a good BE starting point guard. The problem is we needed him to be Dominic James from day one and that was asking a lot. Today he played like DJ as a freshman but you certainly can't expect that.
5/7 3FG isn't normal for anyone.
Quote from: NotAnAlum on January 30, 2016, 11:31:12 PM
I would not expect that kind of shooting out of Traci the rest of the season. He was really hot. And I don't think he has to shoot like that. He just has to be a threat and hit wide open 3s. That will keep the defense from sagging. The part of his game that he now must develop is his ability to get in the lane and finish when its there. Junior wasn't a great shooter but he could shoot when he needed to. However he could beat his man off he dribble and finish at the rim. Then the help has to come over and that will leave HE and Fish open for easy slams. MU shot the lights out today and Butler didn't BUT Butler was in the game because of all the "and ones" they made off drives. 3 point shooting goes hot and cold but a 1 footer with a guy fouling you from behind NEVER goes cold.
I think Traci will be a good BE starting point guard. The problem is we needed him to be Dominic James from day one and that was asking a lot. Today he played like DJ as a freshman but you certainly can't expect that.
That. O needs space. Gotta have 3pt respect for the pg - do we forget DW so easily?
Blue had a 25 point game as a freshmen and average less than 6 points for the whole season. The definition of a freshmen should be inconsistant player. Look at Ellenson. Stetson was probably his worst game and Butler was his best. I also think it is more likely that Ellenson scores 32 again than Carter hitting 5 threes again.
Traci doesn't need to be a dead-eye 3 point shooter. He just needs to be a threat. He's already a greater threat than DW ever was. Once that's established it improves floor spacing and his ability to penetrate creating offensive opportunities for both himself and his teammates.
Traci's greatest challenge right now isn't his shooting. It's his continuing to slow the game down and his decreasing his unforced errors. Those 2 right at the end of his run in the second half was indicative of a Frosh getting too high and it was a good decision for Wojo to give him a seat. I was a bit surprised that Wojo didn't go back to him when DU got his 4th. But I suppose in an offensive/defensive situation going with Sandy makes sense.
Traci's shooting was frosting on what was an excellent day for him. What I was really encouraged with was that he played great defense without fouling, he provided assists for his teammates, and he only turned it over one time. His shot selection was a plus, but I would never expect him to make all those and would have been equally happy with him had he gone 3/7 beyond the arc.
That said, he definitely got away with two turnovers yesterday.He had two soft lobs in to Luke that could have been picked off had Butler been aware of it. Similar to the forced entry that he turned it over against St. John's except up in the air instead of on a bounce. He needs to be better at creating angles on those entry passes.
But overall he did what we needed him to do. His best game against real competition.
Let's hope yesterday wasn't just Traci channeling Dawson vs. GTown.
Traci is a young player who will steadily improve each year . He was doing well from 3 Point range yesterday so he got a few more minutes. I am still most comfortable with him at 10-15 minutes of energy at this stage. I think he gets overly excited and I don't want him in at the end of games.
Reality is we have to deal with his ups and downs for the rest of the year. I think the general trend for him is up though.
We saw a glimpse of this Traci in the first haof of the Nova game. This was a complete game. For me, it is less about him shooting like that (unlikely) than him playing with confidence and being willing to take the open shot. Brew is right - I'd feel just as encouraged with a 3-7 outing.
In conference play, with a minimum of 40% of minutes played with at least two trey attempts per game, Traci (47.4%) is second only to Dunham (52.0%) from beyond. Now, that was helped by yesterday, but even earlier in the season, he led MU. He has worked on his shot as has JJJ. Turnovers has been his biggest issue staying on the floor.
Quote from: mileskishnish72 on January 31, 2016, 09:26:41 AM
Let's hope yesterday wasn't just Traci channeling Dawson vs. GTown.
LOL
I totally thought of that game yesterday too. I think we're safe from that being a one-time occurrence though the way it was with Dawson. If you look back at John, he played as many minutes against GT as he had in the past 7 games combined, which included 3 DNPs. He was a bit player who scored almost as many points against GT (12) as he had in the entire 18-game season to that point (14) and dished out a career high* in assists (4).
Traci has played double-digit minutes in every game except one this season, hit double-digit scoring three other times (including against ASU and 'Nova), and equaled or exceeded his assist total (4) from yesterday in 14 of our previous 21 games. He was also a respectable 12/41 (29.3%) three point shooter coming in, so he had proven he could hit those shots and was doing so at a higher clip than Jajuan (29.0%), Vander (25.0%), Lazar (20.8%), or Jerel (28.3%) did as freshmen, all of whom developed into fairly reliable three-point threats.
* Not including the 6 against Grambling, because for the love of god, no stats in that game should have been counted. I mean, Chris Otule scored 17 in that game and Steve Taylor had a double-double (16/11). It was like Marquette was playing 5-on-me all game long.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 31, 2016, 09:42:22 AM
He was also a respectable 12/41 (29.3%) three point shooter coming in, so he had proven he could hit those shots and was doing so at a higher clip than Jajuan (29.0%), Vander (25.0%), Lazar (20.8%), or Jerel (28.3%) did as freshmen, all of whom developed into fairly reliable three-point threats.
Thanks for those interesting stats from past MU stars.
I think some folks here forget that Lazar and Jerel were freshmen, too.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 31, 2016, 09:42:22 AM
* Not including the 6 against Grambling, because for the love of god, no stats in that game should have been counted. I mean, Chris Otule scored 17 in that game and Steve Taylor had a double-double (16/11). It was like Marquette was playing 5-on-me all game long.
Or, as otherwise known, the infamous "Magic Dawson Game."
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 31, 2016, 10:51:49 AM
Or, as otherwise known, the infamous "Magic Dawson Game."
I still cannot figure out why the coaches did not like Dawson. I do not believe he should of started ahead of Derrick, but it is really odd that Buzz did not play him the next game after Georgetown and Wojo, with a shortage of players, refused to play him at all. From my perspective he seemed like a really good kid who could of helped both years he was here.
Quote from: bilsu on January 31, 2016, 11:01:17 AM
I still cannot figure out why the coaches did not like Dawson. I do not believe he should of started ahead of Derrick, but it is really odd that Buzz did not play him the next game after Georgetown and Wojo, with a shortage of players, refused to play him at all. From my perspective he seemed like a really good kid who could of helped both years he was here.
He did play the game after Georgetown, he played in the next 5 games, averaging 9 mpg. His big game was on January 20, he didn't have a DNP until Xavier on February 15. He was 2/10 (1/4 from 3) in that span with 3 rebounds and 0 assists.
Buzz always used him sparingly, and as I recall, the only reason he got as much run as he did in that Georgetown game was because Derrick told Buzz that JD was hot and to stick with him. After that game, his production and minute levels went back to where they were at before GT.
I agree on Wojo. Still don't get why on such a short-handed team Dawson couldn't get off the bench. What did he play, 1 or 2 minutes in one game against a cupcake? Unless he was terrible in practice or a complete malcontent (which I never heard) I just don't understand it. I don't think he'd ever have been a star here, but I think he could have contributed 5-10 useful mpg last year, especially once conference play started and we were running 6-7 guys out there on a nightly basis, and think it'd be nice to have another upperclassman on this team, especially since experience at the guards is one of our most notable deficits.
I have to think it was something about putting his stamp on the program. I don't think Mayo ever really had much of a chance to play under Wojo, Deonte and Dawson weren't given the roles they were envisioning, and Derrick and Juan were just seeing out their time. Clearly, Duane and Jajuan bought in, but still surprising that on our current roster, JJ is the only one who ever played a minute for Buzz.
Keep in mind that we're asking a lot from our Frosh. Remember when Dom James looked like our best frosh while McNeal and Matthews blossomed over the next 3 years. Carter is doing fine. He'll get better. When he's helping break a press, he really gives the team a chance
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 31, 2016, 08:54:58 AM
Traci's shooting was frosting on what was an excellent day for him. What I was really encouraged with was that he played great defense without fouling, he provided assists for his teammates, and he only turned it over one time. His shot selection was a plus, but I would never expect him to make all those and would have been equally happy with him had he gone 3/7 beyond the arc.
That said, he definitely got away with two turnovers yesterday.He had two soft lobs in to Luke that could have been picked off had Butler been aware of it. Similar to the forced entry that he turned it over against St. John's except up in the air instead of on a bounce. He needs to be better at creating angles on those entry passes.
But overall he did what we needed him to do. His best game against real competition.
I didn't read the whole thread so I apologize if this has been mentioned, but my favorite TC moments yesterday were when he wasn't even in the game.
When he got pulled for the last 5 minutes, we'd come out of every timeout with 6 guys on the court; the five that were playing, plus Traci. He was going around to all the other guards and motivating/coaching each guy. It looked like he was really taking it upon himself to be a vocal leader.
Quote from: MuEagle1090 on January 31, 2016, 02:38:18 PM
I didn't read the whole thread so I apologize if this has been mentioned, but my favorite TC moments yesterday were when he wasn't even in the game.
When he got pulled for the last 5 minutes, we'd come out of every timeout with 6 guys on the court; the five that were playing, plus Traci. He was going around to all the other guards and motivating/coaching each guy. It looked like he was really taking it upon himself to be a vocal leader.
He did that in a previous game if I remember correctly.
Quote from: MuEagle1090 on January 31, 2016, 02:38:18 PM
I didn't read the whole thread so I apologize if this has been mentioned, but my favorite TC moments yesterday were when he wasn't even in the game.
When he got pulled for the last 5 minutes, we'd come out of every timeout with 6 guys on the court; the five that were playing, plus Traci. He was going around to all the other guards and motivating/coaching each guy. It looked like he was really taking it upon himself to be a vocal leader.
Agreed, and a great point. As my signature indicates, I'm a huge fan of the kid. I think in 10-15 years, we'll remember him very fondly. Similar to how we think back to Diener and James.
Traci, like all freshmen, is going to have his ups and downs. Yesterday, when he fouled Jones 40 ft from the basket in the first half, I thought 'here we go again'. But he didn't commit any more dumb fouls, got to stay in the game, and made shots. I know I yelled 'no' on his first 3 (a miss) and then on the next one, too, but he made that one. I quit yelling after that.
As to Dawson last year, Dodds tells the story that in the preseason while Derrick was out, Dawson could not bring the ball up effectively against Carlino, that that lock down defender from BYU completely stymied him and kept picking his pocket. I remember shortly after that in one of his first radio shows Wojo saying that JD's time would be dictated by how well he took care of the ball.
I think Dawson is a poor man's off guard. He's gonna have a nice career where he is right now.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 31, 2016, 03:29:52 PM
I think Dawson is a poor man's off guard. He's gonna have a nice career where he is right now.
He already is averaging 14ppg and 6rpg over 13 games while shooting 39.1% from 3 point country.
Quote from: Loose Cannon on January 31, 2016, 02:44:02 PM
He did that in a previous game if I remember correctly.
Providence. Matty V made a note of him walking out of the huddle with Duane heading into the last play where we got the defensive stop.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 31, 2016, 04:40:41 PM
Providence. Matty V made a note of him walking out of the huddle with Duane heading into the last play where we got the defensive stop.
Thanks, He seem unafraid to take Leadership in some situations.
Brewcity, I'm happy with what I see from Carter, but it's hard to compare him to an NBA player in Diener after 2/3rds of a years. He's a better ball handler than James, and probably as weak of a shooter. But they both compare favorably with defense and creating for others. Let's give the kid time
Quote from: AZMarqfan on January 31, 2016, 07:29:08 PM
Brewcity, I'm happy with what I see from Carter, but it's hard to compare him to an NBA player in Diener after 2/3rds of a years. He's a better ball handler than James, and probably as weak of a shooter. But they both compare favorably with defense and creating for others. Let's give the kid time
He's easily our best freshman point in a decade. Not thinking at all about pro careers, but I fully believe Carter will be our best since those two.
Quote from: AZMarqfan on January 31, 2016, 07:29:08 PM
Brewcity, I'm happy with what I see from Carter, but it's hard to compare him to an NBA player in Diener after 2/3rds of a years. He's a better ball handler than James, and probably as weak of a shooter. But they both compare favorably with defense and creating for others. Let's give the kid time
This statement surprised me, so I looked up the stats. James in his freshmen year had 87 turnovers in 1006 minutes against a tougher schedule. Carter has 52 turnovers in 495 minutes. The stats do not support your statement.
Quote from: bilsu on January 31, 2016, 07:49:20 PM
This statement surprised me, so I looked up the stats. James in his freshmen year had 87 turnovers in 1006 minutes against a tougher schedule. Carter has 52 turnovers in 495 minutes. The stats do not support your statement.
So turnovers only happen off the dribble?
Quote from: MUfan12 on January 31, 2016, 07:54:42 PM
So turnovers only happen off the dribble?
I do not remember James having trouble dribbling the ball. I certainly remember Cadougan getting turned over, especailly against Louisville. In fact we beat Louisville at Louisville James' freshmen year and he was the reason why.
Quote from: bilsu on January 31, 2016, 07:59:49 PM
I do not remember James having trouble dribbling the ball. I certainly remember Cadougan getting turned over, especailly against Louisville. In fact we beat Louisville at Louisville James' freshmen year and he was the reason why.
They lost in OT at Louisville the Big 3's freshmen year. James hit a 30 footer to force OT.
I don't know who the better ballhandler is, but citing the turnover numbers as evidence is misguided.
Quote from: MUfan12 on January 31, 2016, 08:03:22 PM
They lost in OT at Louisville the Big 3's freshmen year. James hit a 30 footer to force OT.
I don't know who the better ballhandler is, but citing the turnover numbers as evidence is misguided.
My memory, which is no proof, thought the statement was wrong. That is why I looked up the numbers, which seem to support what I believed to be true. You also have two totally different coaching styles to consider. Crean's style was and still is a guard dominated dribbling offense, while Wojo is more of a paint touch guy like Buzz was. The effect being that James would have had the ball in his hands more in Crean's offense then he would have in Wojo's offense giving him more opportunity to turn the ball over and the numbers just do not bare it out that he had trouble handling the ball. After his freshmen year he could not shoot a worth a damn, but that has nothing to do with the debate.
Quote from: AZMarqfan on January 31, 2016, 07:29:08 PM
Brewcity, I'm happy with what I see from Carter, but it's hard to compare him to an NBA player in Diener after 2/3rds of a years. He's a better ball handler than James, and probably as weak of a shooter. But they both compare favorably with defense and creating for others. Let's give the kid time
He is not a weak shooter...he doesn't shoot enough as a freshman. He is a good shooter and should shoot the ball more. I don't know what you are looking at.
Quote from: tower912 on January 31, 2016, 03:27:37 PM
Traci, like all freshmen, is going to have his ups and downs. Yesterday, when he fouled Jones 40 ft from the basket in the first half, I thought 'here we go again'. But he didn't commit any more dumb fouls, got to stay in the game, and made shots. I know I yelled 'no' on his first 3 (a miss) and then on the next one, too, but he made that one. I quit yelling after that.
As to Dawson last year, Dodds tells the story that in the preseason while Derrick was out, Dawson could not bring the ball up effectively against Carlino, that that lock down defender from BYU completely stymied him and kept picking his pocket. I remember shortly after that in one of his first radio shows Wojo saying that JD's time would be dictated by how well he took care of the ball.
It wasn't a dumb foul....it might have ben a foul of aggression but not dumb.
Any foul committed on a dribbler crossing mid court is a dumb foul. Unless it is the end of the game and you are trying to foul.
I have liked Traci from Day one. He plays hard, plays tough and can score off the dribble or anywhere on the court. The only negative I have seen is his selfishness and not shooting the ball enough. This is typical of a freshman. Sandy plays similar by playing too unselfish and not shooting enough.
Traci has a 90.8 ORtg using 18.8% possessions.
Dom had 104.9 ORtg using 27.7% possessions in 2006.
They aren't close.
If you want to compare, Junior's sophomore year: 94.3 ORtg using 16.4% possessions.
Anyone who watched the Italy trip could tell Traci was a very good prospect. I am on record as saying he will be Wojo's most important recruit (Howard could make me look wrong). To me Saturday wasn't a surprise but affirmation. I'm not expecting 5-7 from deep again, but I do expect him to hit some big 3's down the stretch.
Quote from: The Lens on February 01, 2016, 11:55:28 AM
Anyone who watched the Italy trip could tell Traci was a very good prospect. I am on record as saying he will be Wojo's most important recruit (Howard could make me look wrong). To me Saturday wasn't a surprise but affirmation. I'm not expecting 5-7 from deep again, but I do expect him to hit some big 3's down the stretch.
I don't think you're the Long Ranger on this one.
Quote from: The Lens on February 01, 2016, 11:55:28 AM
I am on record as saying he will be Wojo's most important recruit (Howard could make me look wrong).
It has to be Cheatham. I don't think we talk about this guy enough. He has potential to be an absolute monster. Already shows long/mid-range game, great ability to drive, and plays really solid D in a high school senior body. He's going to be phenomenal.
Quote from: MUHoopsFan2 on February 01, 2016, 01:07:19 AM
He is not a weak shooter...he doesn't shoot enough as a freshman. He is a good shooter and should shoot the ball more. I don't know what you are looking at.
Wait...he's a good shooter, but doesn't shoot much? In reality, he's had 1 good game as a shooter. I hope he makes progress and develops. I hope he feels comfortable shooting as time goes on. But I can't say he's a good shooter based on 1 game or based on practice. I've heard for 3 years that JJJ is a good shooter in practice, and I really have yet to see it (at least his shot isn't as awkward as it was 2 years ago).
Agreed! Haney is so focused,all he has to do is cut down the TOs, if he works hard in the off-season no tellin how good he can be. I wish Cohen could shake off the funk and play like he did
earlier in the season, but overall, I've been waiting for this team to bust out and have a good
shooting game,it finally happened.
Quote from: AZMarqfan on February 01, 2016, 07:02:28 PM
Wait...he's a good shooter, but doesn't shoot much? In reality, he's had 1 good game as a shooter. I hope he makes progress and develops. I hope he feels comfortable shooting as time goes on. But I can't say he's a good shooter based on 1 game or based on practice. I've heard for 3 years that JJJ is a good shooter in practice, and I really have yet to see it (at least his shot isn't as awkward as it was 2 years ago).
JJJ is shooting 37% from 3 point range this year...I don't know about you but that's a pretty decent clip. Traci is now up to 35% which is just one percent less than Sandy.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on February 01, 2016, 07:18:55 PM
JJJ is shooting 37% from 3 point range this year...I don't know about you but that's a pretty decent clip. Traci is now up to 35% which is just one percent less than Sandy.
I'm happy about this, I really am, because I've been harping that we have needed better 3-point shooting for years.
I just hope they can continue at this kind of respectable rate -- and Duane, Hank and Haanif can, too -- against the better opponents on our schedule.
Aside from this last game against a good (but not great) Butler team, some of the numbers have been fattened up against the bad teams, I'm guessing (but only guessing) because they felt less pressure.
Carter's 5 makes in Saturday's game were more than Derrick made his freshman, sophomore, and junior years combined (0 frosh, 1 soph, 1 junior), and more than half the amount Derrick made all of senior year (9).
Let that sink in.
Quote from: Windyplayer on February 01, 2016, 12:53:59 PM
It has to be Cheatham. I don't think we talk about this guy enough. He has potential to be an absolute monster. Already shows long/mid-range game, great ability to drive, and plays really solid D in a high school senior body. He's going to be phenomenal.
I think Cheatham is this generation's Roney Eford. 4 years of solid.
Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on February 01, 2016, 08:05:15 PM
Carter's 5 makes in Saturday's game were more than Derrick made his freshman, sophomore, and junior years combined (0 frosh, 1 soph, 1 junior), and more than half the amount Derrick made all of senior year (9).
Let that sink in.
Rosevelt Jones's 80 footer was more than his freshman, sophomore, junior, and 20 games into his senior combined (0 frosh, 0 soph, 0 junior, and 0 20 games into his senior year) years from 19-80 foot shots.
Let that sink in.
Quote from: The Lens on February 01, 2016, 10:25:15 PM
I think Cheatham is this generation's Roney Eford. 4 years of solid.
I can see that.
Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on February 01, 2016, 08:05:15 PM
Carter's 5 makes in Saturday's game were more than Derrick made his freshman, sophomore, and junior years combined (0 frosh, 1 soph, 1 junior), and more than half the amount Derrick made all of senior year (9).
Let that sink in.
Wow. Derrick made 11 in his entire career. For grins, someone look up how many Junior made as a Sophomore. Personally, I think Traci has far more upside than either. We certainly had success under Junior's control. Sure wish he had red-shirted after the injury Frosh year.
Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on February 01, 2016, 08:05:15 PM
Carter's 5 makes in Saturday's game were more than Derrick made his freshman, sophomore, and junior years combined (0 frosh, 1 soph, 1 junior), and more than half the amount Derrick made all of senior year (9).
Let that sink in.
David Cubillan made more 3s as a true freshman than Dwyane Wade made in his entire MU career.
Let that sink in.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on February 02, 2016, 08:55:50 AM
David Cubillan made more 3s as a true freshman than Dwyane Wade made in his entire MU career.
Let that sink in.
Eh. Wade was a slasher. That doesn't really mean anything to me.
EDIT: Upon reading earlier posts, I see this was posted in jest.
Quote from: jsglow on February 02, 2016, 08:53:38 AM
Wow. Derrick made 11 in his entire career. For grins, someone look up how many Junior made as a Sophomore. Personally, I think Traci has far more upside than either. We certainly had success under Junior's control. Sure wish he had red-shirted after the injury Frosh year.
I think everyone agrees Carter has more upside. The argument would be whether as a freshmen he is better than Derrick as a senior. Certainly the last game he was, but right now that game is an outlier. How Carter performs the next 9 games will answer the question.
Quote from: jsglow on February 02, 2016, 08:53:38 AM
Wow. Derrick made 11 in his entire career. For grins, someone look up how many Junior made as a Sophomore. Personally, I think Traci has far more upside than either. We certainly had success under Junior's control. Sure wish he had red-shirted after the injury Frosh year.
Junior made 25 his entire career. 0 as a freshman. 2 as a sophomore. 9 as a junior. 14 as a senior. His highest 3p% was junior year, 23%. Junior could get by because he had the handle/elusiveness to get by guys, which Derrick didn't have. Junior also had a decent mid range game and converted about 70% from the line.
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/2488716/type/college/junior-cadougan
Quote from: bilsu on February 02, 2016, 06:13:05 PM
I think everyone agrees Carter has more upside. The argument would be whether as a freshmen he is better than Derrick as a senior. Certainly the last game he was, but right now that game is an outlier. How Carter performs the next 9 games will answer the question.
Here's the irony, I'd say this year's Traci would have been better for last year's team than Derrick. We could have used another shooter and someone who was better at creating offense.
And by the same token, I think senior Derrick would be better for this year's team. We have options, but turn the ball over way too much. Duane and Haanif create enough offense and we have good passing bigs, but no one who we can really trust to not turn it over.
But long run, I'll happily take Traci. I think he'll be really good for us.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 02, 2016, 08:34:58 PM
Here's the irony, I'd say this year's Traci would have been better for last year's team than Derrick. We could have used another shooter and someone who was better at creating offense.
And by the same token, I think senior Derrick would be better for this year's team. We have options, but turn the ball over way too much. Duane and Haanif create enough offense and we have good passing bigs, but no one who we can really trust to not turn it over.
But long run, I'll happily take Traci. I think he'll be really good for us.
Was having this same discussion with a buddy of mine the other day.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 02, 2016, 08:34:58 PM
Here's the irony, I'd say this year's Traci would have been better for last year's team than Derrick. We could have used another shooter and someone who was better at creating offense.
And by the same token, I think senior Derrick would be better for this year's team. We have options, but turn the ball over way too much. Duane and Haanif create enough offense and we have good passing bigs, but no one who we can really trust to not turn it over.
But long run, I'll happily take Traci. I think he'll be really good for us.
No. We go on enough scoring droughts as it is, and defense is not a problem for this team.
Derricks was not a very good Big East point guard.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 02, 2016, 08:34:58 PM
Here's the irony, I'd say this year's Traci would have been better for last year's team than Derrick. We could have used another shooter and someone who was better at creating offense.
And by the same token, I think senior Derrick would be better for this year's team. We have options, but turn the ball over way too much. Duane and Haanif create enough offense and we have good passing bigs, but no one who we can really trust to not turn it over.
But long run, I'll happily take Traci. I think he'll be really good for us.
I respectfully disagree.
Derrick was a Citadel-caliber player. We didn't need him playing 30+ minutes the previous two years, and we don't need him playing 10+ minutes now.
He's a fine young man who tried his darnedest, and I have absolutely no animosity toward him; it is not his fault he was the best PG Buzz successfully recruited.
But he simply is not very good at the sport Naismith called Basket Ball.
And I am going to respectfully disagree with you, 82. Derrick Wilson was a functioning jumpshot away from being a legend. D'd, rebounded, took care of the ball, led. I could beat him in a game of horse. But, with the right combination of players around him, i.e. players who could get their own shot from the other positions, he could have been an amazingly effective player. Because his shooting was so poor, it affected the perception of everything else he brought. Buzz and Wojo aren't blind or stupid regarding everything else he brought to the table.
Quote from: tower912 on February 03, 2016, 11:30:57 AM
And I am going to respectfully disagree with you, 82. Derrick Wilson was a functioning jumpshot away from being a legend. D'd, rebounded, took care of the ball, led. I could beat him in a game of horse. But, with the right combination of players around him, i.e. players who could get their own shot from the other positions, he could have been an amazingly effective player. Because his shooting was so poor, it affected the perception of everything else he brought. Buzz and Wojo aren't blind or stupid regarding everything else he brought to the table.
Derrick's "D" was average once the rules changed (though he was good in the back of a 2-3 zone). He did not turn the ball over, but was weak against a press. Also, pounding the ball on the floor against a zone is hardly "taking care of the ball". As a PG, he had very poor court vision and could not feed the post. Good rebounder for his size. Leader offcourt..on court...? Hardly the makings of a legend. Decent player who was not a good PG.
Quote from: tower912 on February 03, 2016, 11:30:57 AM
And I am going to respectfully disagree with you, 82. Derrick Wilson was a functioning jumpshot away from being a legend. D'd, rebounded, took care of the ball, led. I could beat him in a game of horse. But, with the right combination of players around him, i.e. players who could get their own shot from the other positions, he could have been an amazingly effective player. Because his shooting was so poor, it affected the perception of everything else he brought. Buzz and Wojo aren't blind or stupid regarding everything else he brought to the table.
Not sure he'd have been a legend, but I agree that he would have been a very valuable PG with the right players around him. Too many teams suffer from not having a PG who can break the press, run the offense without turning the ball over, defend or rebound. Derrick did all of those things well.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 03, 2016, 11:53:08 AM
Not sure he'd have been a legend, but I agree that he would have been a very valuable PG with the right players around him. Too many teams suffer from not having a PG who can break the press, run the offense without turning the ball over, defend or rebound. Derrick did all of those things well.
I agree with MU82 here. Derrick wasn't particularly adept at breaking the press (people hardly bothered pressing us because our halfcourt offense was so bad) and certainly wouldn't make you pay for pressing us, and I didn't see evidence that he could successfully run an offense. He defended well, didn't turn the ball over (because he took no chances and didn't challenge the defense), and rebounded well for a guard. If he was on a team with four great offensive players he would still have been a huge liability because you flat out did not have to guard him, even when he had the ball 15 feet from the basket.
I always feel dirty saying bad stuff about Derrick, because he seems like a great person, but he was badly miscast as a PG at the high D-1 level. He was the only PG we had his last couple years, so he had to play alot.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 03, 2016, 11:53:08 AM
Not sure he'd have been a legend, but I agree that he would have been a very valuable PG with the right players around him. Too many teams suffer from not having a PG who can break the press, run the offense without turning the ball over, defend or rebound. Derrick did all of those things well.
once again, Derrick was not very good against the press. Buzz also took him out against the press because he could not shoot FTs.
Oh boy...here we go again. I apologize for my part in this, but...
I think tower is about right. Not sure about the legend part, Derrick was certainly a terrible shooter (just like Junior before him) but he did a lot of things right. All the things he did right are the things this team does wrong. At the point, Traci has struggled to defend without fouling (though great work in that regard against Butler). Everyone who handles the ball (Traci, Duane, Haney, Henry) struggle with turnovers.
Derrick had issues, no doubt. Not a great shooter, but even worse he was surrounded by guys that couldn't get their own shot. If he didn't get it to them in position to shoot right then, they weren't going to convert. Jamil, Davante, Todd, and Jake were all okay to very good college players, but none were going to really create offense of their own accord. And last year, with Matt as our leading scorer, and Duane and Jajuan both inconsistent (and neither as able to create for themselves as they are now) there simply weren't options.
He would be much better surrounded by this year's versions of Duane and Jajuan, and Henry would have been exactly what Derrick needed, a guy who (despite efficiency issues) can always get his own shot.
No, he wouldn't be a panacea, but I fully believe this year's team would be better with Derrick, just like last year's team would have been better with Traci, who was much better at creating and would have excelled with a second point guard like Matt in the backcourt.
Quote from: Nukem2 on February 03, 2016, 12:15:09 PM
once again, Derrick was not very good against the press. Buzz also took him out against the press because he could not shoot FTs.
I watched him break the press many, many times. Sorry you missed that.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 03, 2016, 12:27:37 PM
I watched him break the press many, many times. Sorry you missed that.
+1
Buzz took him out because he could not shoot FTs, that much is true, but not because he couldn't break the press. Junior was the one who couldn't break the press if you spotted him a sledge hammer.
Not a legend. That was an exaggeration on my part and I am wrong. However, if he was a serviceable shooter, 30% from 3, 65% from the line, the rest of his basketball skills would have been more appreciated.
Quote from: tower912 on February 03, 2016, 12:37:49 PM
Not a legend. That was an exaggeration on my part and I am wrong. However, if he was a serviceable shooter, 30% from 3, 65% from the line, the rest of his basketball skills would have been more appreciated.
This I agree with. If he could have forced the defense just to play him honest, it would've opened up a lot for him and for us. Every once in a while a good non-con team would play him straight up and he would drive and do the things good PGs normally do.
Now this is the Scoop I love :) debating about Derrick Wilson
Quote from: tower912 on February 03, 2016, 11:30:57 AM
Derrick Wilson was a functioning jumpshot away from being a legend. D'd, rebounded, took care of the ball, led.
Carter is already a better distributor in terms of creating opportunities off the bounce. Derrick was a great kid but severely limited as an effective starter.
Marquette has one of the best traditions for PG excellence. Wilson has no place in that Pantheon.
I've seen legendary point guards at Marquette.
Tony Miller (still the school's all-time leader in assists) was a legendary point guard. Travis Diener (an incredible scorer, distributor and competitor) was a legendary point guard. Dominic James (one of the most explosive athletes I've ever witnessed on Al McGuire court) was a legendary point guard.
Derrick Wilson was no legendary point guard. He did his best, played his guts out, gave everything he had to Marquette. But even if you take shooting/scoring out of the equation, there wasn't anything he did that was exceptional.
An example of the difference between legendary and not-even-close-to-legendary: Travis Diener scored 391 points in 33 games (11.8 PPG) during his sophomore year. That's only 9 points fewer than Derrick scored in his entire 4-year college career.
Quote from: Marcus92 on February 03, 2016, 03:31:36 PM
I've seen legendary point guards at Marquette.
Tony Miller (still the school's all-time leader in assists) was a legendary point guard. Travis Diener (an incredible scorer, distributor and competitor) was a legendary point guard. Dominic James (one of the most explosive athletes I've ever witnessed on Al McGuire court) was a legendary point guard.
Derrick Wilson was no legendary point guard. He did his best, played his guts out, gave everything he had to Marquette. But even if you take shooting/scoring out of the equation, there wasn't anything he did that was exceptional.
An example of the difference between legendary and not-even-close-to-legendary: Travis Diener scored 391 points in 33 games (11.8 PPG) during his sophomore year. That's only 9 points fewer than Derrick scored in his entire 4-year college career.
Young pup. Meminger, Walton, Lee
Quote from: jsglow on February 03, 2016, 05:03:24 PM
Young pup. Meminger, Walton, Lee
That's funny, Glow.
I had the exact same thought (maybe added Worthen as well), but then I thought if he was talking about legendary MU PGs and didn't mention these guys, he had to be in his 20;s.
Quote from: brandx on February 03, 2016, 05:43:07 PM
That's funny, Glow.
I had the exact same thought (maybe added Worthen as well), but then I thought if he was talking about legendary MU PGs and didn't mention these guys, he had to be in his 20;s.
I'm guessing that Marcus92 graduated in 92. Putting him in his 40s. Still a young pup to some of you grizzled vets on here
Quote from: jsglow on February 03, 2016, 05:03:24 PM
Young pup. Meminger, Walton, Lee
Those three would still be dominant PG's in today's game. They were all at the foundation of why we were a Blue Blood in those days.
Quote from: bilsu on February 02, 2016, 06:13:05 PM
I think everyone agrees Carter has more upside. The argument would be whether as a freshmen he is better than Derrick as a senior. Certainly the last game he was, but right now that game is an outlier. How Carter performs the next 9 games will answer the question.
The mopup kid would have been better then derrick.
I know Memenger, et al were all-time greats. I was just speaking to point guards I've seen play in person (Class of 1992).
With Tony Miller, I saw firsthand the difference a point guard can make on a team. He ran the offense exactly the way KO designed it, feeding McIlvane, Key and Curry with all the entry passes they could handle. He didn't have to be a scorer, but offered just enough to keep opposing defenses honest.
Carter has shown tremendous potential in his first season. Hopefully his career at Marquette marks a return to a long tradition of great point guard play.
And how could I leave out Tony Smith? Didn't play on any great teams, but his senior season was one for the ages.