MUScoop

I couldn't resist this one.

I want things to be growing pains, but I think we're at a stage where Wojo soon may be on a shorter leash than he wants to be. I'm either an Option 3 or an Option 4.

I'm between 1 and 3...but I hate baseball, so 1 it is.

We suck. 
Period. 

I've been a fan my whole life, and this stretch is really wearing on me. The last 2 2/3 seasons have been awful to sit through. I don't want to even think about next year, with even less size, and having to replace 16 and 10 per game.

1. There is a process and it must be respected.Its an extremely painful and infuriating process, but were heading the right direction. This team will dance next year barring any surprise defections

I did not expect 2-5 in league play at this point. I always knew making the tournament would be tough this year, especially with our non-con, but I'm disappointed. Looks like the whole "teach the team how to win" plan against cupcakes is backfiring.

Early in the season, we weathered bumps against Belmont and Iowa but saw it pay off in NYC and Madison. Then we got fat on cupcakes, and now look fat and lazy.

That schedule did not prepare us remotely for the Big East.

1. We have a young coaching staff - most notably, Wojo. Will Wojo be Coach K or Jay Wright? Unlikely. But both coaches saw significant losses in their first few years. I know Wright didn't make the tournament for quite a while either.

2. We are relying on players (mostly the freshmen) in roles they shouldn't be playing. Carter should be a back-up PG. Cheatham should be a 6th man. Wally should be getting 3-5 min per game. Henry, as a freshman, is stuffing stat sheets - but imagine him on an experienced team as a 3rd or 4th option. Heldt should probably be a RS. But the situation Wojo was left with, these guys are expected to be forced up in the rotation. I sincerely hope is speeds along development, but still, they're playing in roles they wouldn't be if we had a balanced roster. I also imagine the freshmen class as a whole is starting to hit a wall.

3. Duane and Sandy look like they're hitting their sophomore slumps.

4. JJJ is finally, in conference play, starting to look like he's putting it all together.

5. Luke, IMO, is the most disappointing this season. But, as it's a team game, I think the combination of 2 and 3 is hurting him as well.

6. Pilarz/Larry/Buzz may have left more damage in their wake than we've realized. Both university-wide and basketball-wise.

7. Give Wojo his due. I would say 5 years - so he gets one full recruiting cycle, but I can listen to an argument for 4 years.

The administration does not have a clue. That is why they gave Wojo a contract extension mid-season.

I voted for baseball season, but the truth is that the Blackhawks already have my attention

State of our program?

DOOMED!

Doomed, I say!

Freshmen and sophomores NEVER get better. Look it up; in the history of college sports, it's NEVER happened. So we are doomed, DOOMED, DOOOOOMED!

If I were you, I would start rooting for Wisconsin or Notre Dame or Northwestern or UC-Santa Cruz. Anybody but the doomed Golden Eagles. (So doomed, they don't even deserve to be called the Warriors.)

Quote from: bilsu on January 21, 2016, 07:26:21 AM
The administration does not have a clue. That is why they gave Wojo a contract extension mid-season.

For about the 1000th time, the contract extension means nothing. Just a symbolic gesture.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 21, 2016, 08:27:50 AM
For about the 1000th time, the contract extension means nothing. Just a symbolic gesture.

How so?  If he is fired the school still owes him that money.  Now if he were to leave, then sure symbolic only, although at this point I don't see a lot of schools beating down the door to take him away.

Quote from: Marquette_g on January 21, 2016, 08:40:40 AM
How so?  If he is fired the school still owes him that money.  Now if he were to leave, then sure symbolic only, although at this point I don't see a lot of schools beating down the door to take him away.

Anyone know what Wojo contract is looking like? I think it runs thru 2022, but have no clue how much per year

Quote from: Marquette_g on January 21, 2016, 08:40:40 AM
How so?  If he is fired the school still owes him that money.  Now if he were to leave, then sure symbolic only, although at this point I don't see a lot of schools beating down the door to take him away.

He's not getting fired anytime soon so it's symbolic. He's doing fantastic at recruiting, plays the pr well, and his players love him. He's doing about everything that can be expected in year two of a rebuild.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 21, 2016, 08:49:16 AM
He's not getting fired anytime soon so it's symbolic. He's doing fantastic at recruiting, plays the pr well, and his players love him. He's doing about everything that can be expected in year two of a rebuild.

I'll grant him one fantastic class, as of this point the '16 class is nothing special on paper.

God, I hate Scoop after games like last night.  Short term perspective.

I am WAY more disappointed with the Packers.  They were expected to win. 

This is exactly what should of been expected.  We are starting 3 freshman, 1 sophomore and 1 junior.

Quote from: mu-rara on January 21, 2016, 08:51:08 AM
God, I hate Scoop after games like last night.  Short term perspective.

I am WAY more disappointed with the Packers.  They were expected to win. 

This is exactly what should of been expected.  We are starting 3 freshman, 1 sophomore and 1 junior.

Agreed, although isn't part of that on Wojo?  He could/should have brought in a sr. transfer or Juco to lend some experience to the roster.  How many throw-away seasons are too many (asking honestly) as this is our second?

Quote from: Marquette_g on January 21, 2016, 08:59:55 AM
Agreed, although isn't part of that on Wojo?  He could/should have brought in a sr. transfer or Juco to lend some experience to the roster.  How many throw-away seasons are too many (asking honestly) as this is our second?

Seem to be plenty of people here that see to think if we're relevant again by 2050 we're doing just fine.

Listen - this list is from a few years back but we are pretty consistently in the Top 10 spenders on MBB in the NCAA.  Look at the other teams on this list.  How many seasons of non-POSTSEASON (much less NCAA) would they put up with? I'm fine with the long re-build with a solid prospect, but then let's spend that kind of money - not money that teams that expect a deep NCAA run every year spend.

http://www.businessinsider.com/these-20-schools-spend-the-most-money-on-their-basketball-teams-2012-1?op=1&IR=T

Can Wojo and staff cannot fix everything. Some of this in on the players themselves. However with Nelson and Johnson and CC. You have to wonder. Maybe good ex ball player friends who cannot teach the game.

Quote from: Marquette_g on January 21, 2016, 08:59:55 AM
Agreed, although isn't part of that on Wojo?  He could/should have brought in a sr. transfer or Juco to lend some experience to the roster. 

Yes he should have.

He should have reached into Scoop's Politics board, yanked one of Heisy's 2,000 guns away, and then used that gun to force a good juco to sign with us.

Quote from: Marquette_g on January 21, 2016, 08:59:55 AM
Agreed, although isn't part of that on Wojo?  He could/should have brought in a sr. transfer or Juco to lend some experience to the roster.  How many throw-away seasons are too many (asking honestly) as this is our second?

You do realize that he tried to do just that right?

MU won't be good until it has dominate guards.  It does not yet have them.  Perhaps their current crop will grow into such players, but until they do, MU hoops will remain painful to watch.

You wonder just like Buzz and Crean what scares big men from coming to Marquette...

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 21, 2016, 09:37:59 AM

You do realize that he tried to do just that right?

Correct. Offered atleast 4 grad transfers:

T.Gielo
D.Lee
S.Miller
D.Johnson

Quote from: crazyfannyboy54 on January 21, 2016, 09:39:28 AM
You wonder just like Buzz and Crean what scares big men from coming to Marquette...

You mean like outside of Fischer, Ellenson and Heldt?

Fischer came here written off by crean. And Heldt should be at UWGB just honesty you need to do a little better than luck and in state recruiting.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 21, 2016, 09:37:59 AM

You do realize that he tried to do just that right?

If you were a PF grad transfer would you have come to Marquette?  Luke and Henry more then likely entrenched at the 4 and 5 and the team not likely to be very good.  We would have been a tough sell for a one-year guy. 

Quote from: crazyfannyboy54 on January 21, 2016, 09:47:29 AM
Fischer came here written off by crean. And Heldt should be at UWGB just honesty you need to do a little better than luck and in state recruiting.

A little harsh, but yes, Fish wanted to be close to home & couldn't transfer to Becky enless he paid his own way.

Heldt could be something. It's early. But yes, no P5 offers. Recruiting sites seemed to like him though

Quote from: crazyfannyboy54 on January 21, 2016, 09:47:29 AM
Fischer came here written off by crean. And Heldt should be at UWGB just honesty you need to do a little better than luck and in state recruiting.

Well now you are making excuses.  Fisher came here.  Ellenson came here.  And writing off Heldt is ridiculous.  He's a freshman big. 

Excuses more like just concerned for player development.Has allot changed from November besides Heldt not setting moving screens and effort. For luke the post moves are kind of predicatble you think??

Point is, cowboy was able to scrape a JUCO when he needed one - at least until it all fell apart with McKay and when that happened he bolted.  The fact that Wojo TRIED to get a juco but COULND'T is almost worse than if he hadn't tried at all.  It's not like we didn't have the resources to bring one in.

Quote from: 1SE on January 21, 2016, 10:01:30 AM
Point is, cowboy was able to scrape a JUCO when he needed one - at least until it all fell apart with McKay and when that happened he bolted.  The fact that Wojo TRIED to get a juco but COULND'T is almost worse than if he hadn't tried at all.  It's not like we didn't have the resources to bring one in.

So if a coach doesn't bat 1.000 in recruiting he is failing at his job?

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 21, 2016, 10:34:53 AM
So if a coach doesn't bat 1.000 in recruiting he is failing at his job?

Correct. Offered at least 4 grad transfers:

T.Gielo
D.Lee
S.Miller
D.Johnson


I think we were only asking for .250

Quote from: 1SE on January 21, 2016, 10:01:30 AM
Point is, cowboy was able to scrape a JUCO when he needed one - at least until it all fell apart with McKay and when that happened he bolted.  The fact that Wojo TRIED to get a juco but COULND'T is almost worse than if he hadn't tried at all.  It's not like we didn't have the resources to bring one in.

The four players listed were all transfers.  I am not sure he offered any JUCOs.  He was tracking some, but all of them seemed to go to lower level programs.

Quote from: 1SE on January 21, 2016, 10:42:44 AM

Correct. Offered at least 4 grad transfers:

T.Gielo
D.Lee
S.Miller
D.Johnson


I think we were only asking for .250

You said that it was embarrassing that Wojo tried for a JUCO and couldn't get him. Nothing about grad transfers

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 21, 2016, 10:50:32 AM
You said that it was embarrassing that Wojo tried for a JUCO and couldn't get him. Nothing about grad transfers

My bad - should have said juco/grad transfer - same idea of bringing in some experience. 

Quote from: 1SE on January 21, 2016, 10:53:57 AM
My bad - should have said juco/grad transfer - same idea of bringing in some experience.

Wojo offered Jimario Rivers (Memphis) & Darralyn Willis (Wichita state), both JUCO's & didn't land them.

But these are 2016. Might be others that I can't recall

Quote from: WarriorPride68 on January 21, 2016, 10:57:14 AM
Wojo offered Jimario Rivers (Memphis) & Darralyn Willis (Wichita state), both JUCO's & didn't land them.

But these are 2016. Might be others that I can't recall

I don't think the official with Willis went very well.  Neither party was interested after that.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 21, 2016, 09:37:59 AM

You do realize that he tried to do just that right?

So he failed at that too then.  We can add that to the list.

Quote from: MU82 on January 21, 2016, 09:25:30 AM
Yes he should have.

He should have reached into Scoop's Politics board, yanked one of Heisy's 2,000 guns away, and then used that gun to force a good juco to sign with us.

Now you're talking, sometimes guns are good for something.

The state of our program is exactly what it was prior to the DePaul game.   We still have a second year head coach and a team with 10 scholarship players.   5 freshmen.   Of the 5 upperclassmen, 1 is new to MU and 2 were bench players on a really bad team.    Our 3 bigs all have slow feet defensively and aren't particularly strong.  5 of our other 7 are undersized for the positions they play. (not Traci or Haanif)    With all of this inexperience and lack of size, this team is what I thought they would be.     Better than last year, but still not good enough to win consistently in the Big East.  Building for next year. 

Tyler Herro was in the building last night too. Sickens me. He was at Wisconsin last Sunday for upset of Michigan State and then Marquette loses to awful DePaul. Seems this program will never get traction. I still think we have a good chance at him, but there is work to be done.

Quote from: CheesyMUfan4ever on January 21, 2016, 11:24:33 AM
Tyler Herro was in the building last night too. Sickens me. He was at Wisconsin last Sunday for upset of Michigan State and then Marquette loses to awful DePaul. Seems this program will never get traction. I still think we have a good chance at him, but there is work to be done.

If he choses based on the outcome of a couple games, then he is being short-sighted.

Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 20, 2016, 10:51:41 PM
I'm between 1 and 3...but I hate baseball, so 1 it is.

Commie

Quote from: CheesyMUfan4ever on January 21, 2016, 11:24:33 AM
Tyler Herro was in the building last night too. Sickens me. He was at Wisconsin last Sunday for upset of Michigan State and then Marquette loses to awful DePaul. Seems this program will never get traction. I still think we have a good chance at him, but there is work to be done.

MU had their new coach.   Wiscy has uncertainty.   He is an '18, right?    MU is going to be in much better shape when he enters as a freshman than Wiscy will be. 

Quote from: Badgerhater on January 21, 2016, 09:38:32 AM
MU won't be good until it has dominate guards.  It does not yet have them.  Perhaps their current crop will grow into such players, but until they do, MU hoops will remain painful to watch.

Dominant guards are crucial for whipping a team into shape. The most crucial ingredient in success is pain.

(http://www.femdomartists.com/femdom-spanking/woman-sadist-whips-man_image.jpg)

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 20, 2016, 11:52:08 PM
1. There is a process and it must be respected.Its an extremely painful and infuriating process, but were heading the right direction. This team will dance next year barring any surprise defections

Glad to hear the old process is back in place. Could you please explain, "the process"?  I am having some trouble catching up on the details of the master plan that is underway.

Quote from: CheesyMUfan4ever on January 21, 2016, 11:24:33 AM
Tyler Herro was in the building last night too. Sickens me. He was at Wisconsin last Sunday for upset of Michigan State and then Marquette loses to awful DePaul. Seems this program will never get traction. I still think we have a good chance at him, but there is work to be done.

Crap. UW was at his game Friday night in addition to the Kohl Center Sunday it sounds like. And his scout.com quotes left me abit bummed.

It is early though

Quote from: Class71 on January 21, 2016, 11:42:27 AM
Glad to hear the old process is back in place. Could you please explain, "the process"?  I am having some trouble catching up on the details of the master plan that is underway.

1. Recruit good players
2. Do the best you can with young inexperienced players
3. Watch those players grow up
4. Win
5. Repeat as many times as necessary

We're still in step 2. Can't get to step 4 without steps 1-3. And those steps take a few years

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 21, 2016, 01:09:07 PM
1. Recruit good players
2. Do the best you can with young inexperienced players
3. Watch those players grow up
4. Win
5. Repeat as many times as necessary

We're still in step 2. Can't get to step 4 without steps 1-3. And those steps take a few years

The old process (fill holes with Jucos and transfers who are ready) worked better than the new process  (wait and hope that players who aren't ready become ready someday) does.

We have no outside shooters...and that is the state of our program.

Quote from: 1SE on January 21, 2016, 10:01:30 AM
  The fact that Wojo TRIED to get a juco but COULND'T is almost worse than if he hadn't tried at all.  It's not like we didn't have the resources to bring one in.

Are you sure you want to stick with this logic.

I think there are plenty of fan bases this season over reacting to losses. Heck, both Duke and MI State are on 3 game losing streaks. This is from a related article

Chaos is the only certainty in college basketball this season
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/the-only-certainty-in-college-basketball-this-season-is-chaos-170222762.html

There are a handful of factors that have contributed to the lack of a dominant team this season, but one of the biggest is that many of this year's elite freshmen did not cluster at traditional powers.

Likely No. 1 overall draft pick Ben Simmons chose to play at LSU, where his godfather is an assistant coach. Potential lottery pick Henry Ellenson selected Marquette, where his brother also plays. Stephen Zimmerman stayed close to home at UNLV, Malik Newman chose his dad's alma mater Mississippi State and Jaylen Brown followed close friend and fellow McDonald's All-American Ivan Rabb to Cal.

The overall weakness of this year's freshman class also has played a role. Many of the freshman who did select name-brand programs have struggled with the transition to the college game and have not performed to expectations.

Brandon Ingram has been sensational for Duke, but the Blue Devils still lack a traditional point guard or any semblance of interior depth because Derryck Thornton hasn't been reliable and Chase Jeter has fallen out of the rotation altogether.

Freshman guards Jamal Murray and Isaiah Briscoe have both scored in bursts at Kentucky, but highly touted big man Skal Labissiere has been a major disappointment.

And while Kansas has performed better than either the Blue Devils or Wildcats, the Jayhawks can't reach their ceiling unless decorated big man Cheick Diallo gains Bill Self's trust and begins to make an impact.

The other force at play in producing parity is that just about every prospect who could have turned pro last spring did so. Seven underclassmen from Kentucky's 38-1 team bolted for the NBA, as did the three Duke freshmen that spearheaded its title run. Fellow elite teams Wisconsin, Arizona, Virginia and Louisville were also hurt by defections.

The two best NBA prospects who did opt to stay in school last spring both play for fringe contenders. Providence and Utah would both probably be rebuilding this season if point guard Kris Dunn and center Jakob Poeltl had decided to turn pro.

There was a time when the elite programs had the depth to overcome NBA defections or disappointing freshman classes, but the transfer craze has made that more difficult now. Players who don't receive extended minutes as freshmen often leave rather than stay patient on the bench until their junior or senior seasons.

The result is a season in which the unexpected has become the norm.

UCLA loses to Monmouth but beats Kentucky? Makes perfect sense. Northern Iowa topples North Carolina and Iowa State but starts 2-4 in Missouri Valley play? Why not.

Like many on here I have been a fan for over 40 years and big part of my sports enjoyment. My Dad always called MU ball is winter therapy and as I get older I think MU ball is going to force me into therapy. Had high hopes, a tad unrealistic, and close to throwing in the towel on another season. If not for visiting Scoop the towel may have been thrown in already.

Quote from: Goose on January 21, 2016, 01:49:29 PM
Had high hopes, a tad unrealistic, and close to throwing in the towel on another season.

Pomeroy had MU #5 in Big East (projected 9-9)

Sports Illustrated had MU #5 in Big East (projected 10-8)

Even people outside of Milwaukee had expectations. That's why this year is looking to be so painful. Other than the Johnnies & Stetson, will likely be dogs in the remaining games

Just had to poke my head in to check the state of the Scoop meltdown.  Looks like it's pretty much complete.  This is merely one of those losses when we expected to win.  That means we still get some wins when we are expected to lose, right, Tower?  After every "bad" loss this team has pulled together and pulled out unexpected wins (LSU, Wisconsin, Providence).  They will eventually become more cohesive and consistent.  Might take until the BEast tourney to get there.  Now, excuse me while I take off my hazmat suit and wait a couple more days for the fallout to diminish.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 21, 2016, 01:23:42 PM
The old process (fill holes with Jucos and transfers who are ready) worked better than the new process  (wait and hope that players who aren't ready become ready someday) does.

Idk....the new process worked pretty well for Al....so maybe its the old process?

Quote from: muwarrior69 on January 21, 2016, 01:24:47 PM
We have no outside shooters...and that is the state of our program.

I dont think thats true. Were shooting 34% from deep. Thats not good but not bad either. Team rebounding, turnovers, and lack of a complete PG are bigger problems IMHO

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 21, 2016, 03:43:54 PM
Idk....the new process worked pretty well for Al....so maybe its the old process?

Wrong. Al filled holes with transfers and Jucos often. On the national championship team the starting center was a Juco and the starting point guard a transfer. And most of his stars from high school were stars from their first day of eligibility at MU.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 21, 2016, 04:05:33 PM
Wrong. Al filled holes with transfers and Jucos often. On the national championship team the starting center was a Juco and the starting point guard a transfer. And most of his stars from high school were stars from their first day of eligibility at MU.

Lenny, not entirely. First, you are correct that Jerome Whitehead was a Juco stash and Jim Boylan was a transfer. Secondly, other famous JUCOs at Marquette included Bob Lackey (one of my favorite Warriors ever!) and I think Ric Cobb. They were out there from time to time.

Our stars were highly regarded recruits but were not stars from Day 1. It was Al who said, "The best thing about freshmen was they become sophomores." It was also said by Al that "my seniors are my stars." I won't argue that after the early 1970s when freshmen became varsity eligible, some of our guys started from Day 1. My memory is a little faded but I want to say that in the Al era, there were more than a few superstars who had plenty of pine time their freshmen year. Al's teams were so good that he used upper classmen whenever he could. He let his freshmen work in as game situations permitted.

Quote from: Marquette_g on January 21, 2016, 08:40:40 AM
How so?  If he is fired the school still owes him that money.  Now if he were to leave, then sure symbolic only, although at this point I don't see a lot of schools beating down the door to take him away.

Exactly. That is sure something that Tonto does not get. If you cut bait and owe 5 million, that sure as hell means something. Unless you have an unlimited bankroll.

Quote from: dgies9156 on January 21, 2016, 04:21:36 PM
Lenny, not entirely. First, you are correct that Jerome Whitehead was a Juco stash and Jim Boylan was a transfer. Secondly, other famous JUCOs at Marquette included Bob Lackey (one of my favorite Warriors ever!) and I think Ric Cobb. They were out there from time to time.

Our stars were highly regarded recruits but were not stars from Day 1. It was Al who said, "The best thing about freshmen was they become sophomores." It was also said by Al that "my seniors are my stars." I won't argue that after the early 1970s when freshmen became varsity eligible, some of our guys started from Day 1. My memory is a little faded but I want to say that in the Al era, there were more than a few superstars who had plenty of pine time their freshmen year. Al's teams were so good that he used upper classmen whenever he could. He let his freshmen work in as game situations permitted.

George Thompson, Dean Meminger and Jim Chones played when freshmen were ineligible, but all three started and were stars as sophomores and, if eligible, would have started and been stars as freshmen. Bo Ellis started and starred as a freshman, Butch Lee started but didn't star.

Don't forget Maurice Lucas

Quote from: Earl Tatum on January 21, 2016, 04:51:07 PM
Don't forget Maurice Lucas

Yep

Wojo and staff need to figure out how to counter the defenses that are thrown at them. They've been scouted now and teams know how to handle our strengths and tendencies. I keep looking for HE to sit at the top of the key and dish, drive or shoot.

Quote from: Waldo Jeffers on January 21, 2016, 01:43:48 PM
I think there are plenty of fan bases this season over reacting to losses. Heck, both Duke and MI State are on 3 game losing streaks. This is from a related article

Chaos is the only certainty in college basketball this season
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/the-only-certainty-in-college-basketball-this-season-is-chaos-170222762.html

There are a handful of factors that have contributed to the lack of a dominant team this season, but one of the biggest is that many of this year's elite freshmen did not cluster at traditional powers.

Likely No. 1 overall draft pick Ben Simmons chose to play at LSU, where his godfather is an assistant coach. Potential lottery pick Henry Ellenson selected Marquette, where his brother also plays. Stephen Zimmerman stayed close to home at UNLV, Malik Newman chose his dad's alma mater Mississippi State and Jaylen Brown followed close friend and fellow McDonald's All-American Ivan Rabb to Cal.

The overall weakness of this year's freshman class also has played a role. Many of the freshman who did select name-brand programs have struggled with the transition to the college game and have not performed to expectations.

Brandon Ingram has been sensational for Duke, but the Blue Devils still lack a traditional point guard or any semblance of interior depth because Derryck Thornton hasn't been reliable and Chase Jeter has fallen out of the rotation altogether.

Freshman guards Jamal Murray and Isaiah Briscoe have both scored in bursts at Kentucky, but highly touted big man Skal Labissiere has been a major disappointment.

And while Kansas has performed better than either the Blue Devils or Wildcats, the Jayhawks can't reach their ceiling unless decorated big man Cheick Diallo gains Bill Self's trust and begins to make an impact.

The other force at play in producing parity is that just about every prospect who could have turned pro last spring did so. Seven underclassmen from Kentucky's 38-1 team bolted for the NBA, as did the three Duke freshmen that spearheaded its title run. Fellow elite teams Wisconsin, Arizona, Virginia and Louisville were also hurt by defections.

The two best NBA prospects who did opt to stay in school last spring both play for fringe contenders. Providence and Utah would both probably be rebuilding this season if point guard Kris Dunn and center Jakob Poeltl had decided to turn pro.

There was a time when the elite programs had the depth to overcome NBA defections or disappointing freshman classes, but the transfer craze has made that more difficult now. Players who don't receive extended minutes as freshmen often leave rather than stay patient on the bench until their junior or senior seasons.

The result is a season in which the unexpected has become the norm.

UCLA loses to Monmouth but beats Kentucky? Makes perfect sense. Northern Iowa topples North Carolina and Iowa State but starts 2-4 in Missouri Valley play? Why not.

Excellent article. Thanks for sharing.

The State of Our Program After DePaul......  It's still in Wisconsin, right?

In 7 Big East games only we are only better than our opponents in two statistical catagories and they are almost the same thing. We have 58 steals to their 50 and 106 turnovers to their 109. We are being out rebounded 222-267, shoot significanly less than 30% from three and less than 70% from the free throw line. Those are not encouraging numbers.

Quote from: bilsu on January 21, 2016, 08:10:27 PM
In 7 Big East games only we are only better than our opponents in two statistical catagories and they are almost the same thing. We have 58 steals to their 50 and 106 turnovers to their 109. We are being out rebounded 222-267, shoot significanly less than 30% from three and less than 70% from the free throw line. Those are not encouraging numbers.

nm

Quote from: jesmu84 on January 21, 2016, 08:18:10 PM
nm

They are meaningful.

Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on January 21, 2016, 08:40:03 PM
They are meaningful.

nm = "no message". As in, I typed a response, then removed it. But the post will still exist.

The state of our program is 12-7 with a lot of basketball left to play.
Live in the present, work for the future.

Forget the past!

Quote from: jesmu84 on January 21, 2016, 09:20:42 PM
nm = "no message". As in, I typed a response, then removed it. But the post will still exist.

ok

Quote from: Waldo Jeffers on January 21, 2016, 01:43:48 PM
I think there are plenty of fan bases this season over reacting to losses. Heck, both Duke and MI State are on 3 game losing streaks. This is from a related article

Chaos is the only certainty in college basketball this season
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/the-only-certainty-in-college-basketball-this-season-is-chaos-170222762.html

There are a handful of factors that have contributed to the lack of a dominant team this season, but one of the biggest is that many of this year's elite freshmen did not cluster at traditional powers.

Likely No. 1 overall draft pick Ben Simmons chose to play at LSU, where his godfather is an assistant coach. Potential lottery pick Henry Ellenson selected Marquette, where his brother also plays. Stephen Zimmerman stayed close to home at UNLV, Malik Newman chose his dad's alma mater Mississippi State and Jaylen Brown followed close friend and fellow McDonald's All-American Ivan Rabb to Cal.

The overall weakness of this year's freshman class also has played a role. Many of the freshman who did select name-brand programs have struggled with the transition to the college game and have not performed to expectations.

Brandon Ingram has been sensational for Duke, but the Blue Devils still lack a traditional point guard or any semblance of interior depth because Derryck Thornton hasn't been reliable and Chase Jeter has fallen out of the rotation altogether.

Freshman guards Jamal Murray and Isaiah Briscoe have both scored in bursts at Kentucky, but highly touted big man Skal Labissiere has been a major disappointment.

And while Kansas has performed better than either the Blue Devils or Wildcats, the Jayhawks can't reach their ceiling unless decorated big man Cheick Diallo gains Bill Self's trust and begins to make an impact.

The other force at play in producing parity is that just about every prospect who could have turned pro last spring did so. Seven underclassmen from Kentucky's 38-1 team bolted for the NBA, as did the three Duke freshmen that spearheaded its title run. Fellow elite teams Wisconsin, Arizona, Virginia and Louisville were also hurt by defections.

The two best NBA prospects who did opt to stay in school last spring both play for fringe contenders. Providence and Utah would both probably be rebuilding this season if point guard Kris Dunn and center Jakob Poeltl had decided to turn pro.

There was a time when the elite programs had the depth to overcome NBA defections or disappointing freshman classes, but the transfer craze has made that more difficult now. Players who don't receive extended minutes as freshmen often leave rather than stay patient on the bench until their junior or senior seasons.

The result is a season in which the unexpected has become the norm.

UCLA loses to Monmouth but beats Kentucky? Makes perfect sense. Northern Iowa topples North Carolina and Iowa State but starts 2-4 in Missouri Valley play? Why not.

It's a crapshoot baby.  On any given night.   ;)

Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 21, 2016, 04:45:03 PM
George Thompson, Dean Meminger and Jim Chones played when freshmen were ineligible, but all three started and were stars as sophomores and, if eligible, would have started and been stars as freshmen. Bo Ellis started and starred as a freshman, Butch Lee started but didn't star.

But those guys all were far better than anything we have now. Chones might have been a one and done today. All were incredible and while they started, not sure they starred as freshmen.

Quote from: dgies9156 on January 21, 2016, 10:23:08 PM
But those guys all were far better than anything we have now. Chones might have been a one and done today. All were incredible and while they started, not sure they starred as freshmen.

Not playing as a freshman did a lot of guys good.  I have little doubt the same was true for MU.

Meminger had a very good Sophomore year, we'll never know how good he would have been as a freshman.  He certainly got better statistically each year he was at MU.  Chones, likely a one and done either way.  Thompson, also very good his sophomore year.    More the exceptions than the rule in college basketball.

Bo started as a freshman.  Statistically I'd rate him as a solid solid freshman, but not a star.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 21, 2016, 04:05:33 PM
Wrong. Al filled holes with transfers and Jucos often. On the national championship team the starting center was a Juco and the starting point guard a transfer. And most of his stars from high school were stars from their first day of eligibility at MU.

And Wojo has gone after jucos and successfully landed transfers. Notice you said filled holes. Al built his teams with freshmen and developed them.

I dont think everyone of Als stars were stars from Day 1. He also had the advantage of basically a forced redshirt in the early years. Didnt have to play freshmen.

You are also remembering the end of Als career, after he had built a powerhouse. How did he build that powerhouse? Those kids he recruited in 1964 were hardly stars from day 1, but they grew up and were NIT runner ups in 67 and made the sweet 16 in 68.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 21, 2016, 11:20:31 PM
And Wojo has gone after jucos and successfully landed transfers. Notice you said filled holes. Al built his teams with freshmen and developed them.

I dont think everyone of Als stars were stars from Day 1. He also had the advantage of basically a forced redshirt in the early years. Didnt have to play freshmen.

You are also remembering the end of Als career, after he had built a powerhouse. How did he build that powerhouse? Those kids he recruited in 1964 were hardly stars from day 1, but they grew up and were NIT runner ups in 67 and made the sweet 16 in 68.

So very correct, before McGuire there was a team but no program, we were independents looking for acceptance.   After McGuire the program gradually disintegrated into a midmajor world of also-rans.

There is more to a successful program than even a coach.  It takes fans, facilities, a league, ballers in the NBA, paraphernalia, and history.   Not to mention the most important ingredient, good unselfish players.  I am getting to realy love these kids, does that fit into the equation?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 21, 2016, 10:30:58 PM


Bo started as a freshman.  Statistically I'd rate him as a solid solid freshman, but not a star.

Bo started every game as a freshman on a team that went to the final four and lost the championship game. Second leading scorer and rebounder on the team (12.1 and 8.5 - only 3 points and 2 rebounds shy of Maurice Lucas). Shot 53.5% (best on the team by far) from the field, 72.1% from the line. And he was our best defensive player.

Solid? LOL. He was a star.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 22, 2016, 11:11:51 AM
Bo started every game as a freshman on a team that went to the final four and lost the championship game. Second leading scorer and rebounder on the team (12.1 and 8.5 - only 3 points and 2 rebounds shy of Maurice Lucas). Shot 53.5% (best on the team by far) from the field, 72.1% from the line. And he was our best defensive player.

Solid? LOL. He was a star.

Absolutely!! There were several stars on that great team. Oh what we had under Al!

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 21, 2016, 10:30:58 PM


Meminger had a very good Sophomore year, we'll never know how good he would have been as a freshman.  He certainly got better statistically each year he was at MU.  Chones, likely a one and done either way.  Thompson, also very good his sophomore year.    More the exceptions than the rule in college basketball.

1. Chones wasn't a one and done. He was an instant star but didn't leave until almost the end of his junior year.
2. Of course we'll never KNOW how good Meminger would have been as a freshman, but I saw him put up 44 against the best freshman team ever at Notre Dame (Austin Carr, Sid Catlett and Collis Jones, among others) and he dominated the guards who led us to the NIT finals in practice so I think we can venture an informed opinion. Similar stuff with George.

Quote from: tower912 on January 21, 2016, 07:56:10 PM
The State of Our Program After DePaul......  It's still in Wisconsin, right?

Silly. Everyone knows Marquette is in Michigan. Why, just last week I had a guy from northern Wisconsin tell me that he's positive that I'm wrong about my alma mater being in Milwaukee.

Quote from: slingkong on January 22, 2016, 01:56:45 PM
Silly. Everyone knows Marquette is in Michigan. Why, just last week I had a guy from northern Wisconsin tell me that he's positive that I'm wrong about my alma mater being in Milwaukee.

LOL!  30 minutes I was speaking to someone at work and this person said "You went to Marquette --- in Michigan?"