1. When Luke bricked those two free throws, deep in my heart, I knew.
2. Early foul trouble for Luke completely disrupted the flow in the first half.
3. JJ and Wally earned the starts with their play against X, but many struggled to figure out their roles tonight.
4. Sacar with the 3, but why was he in at the end?
5. I don't know if it was a plan of Wojo's, or something he went to after Luke got in trouble, but the substitution patterns and player combinations in the first half were puzzling, to say the least. For the first time in ages, I couldn't figure out a MU coach's substitution plan.
6. Nice bounce back game for Duane.
7. I deleted the rant that was going to go here. Let me instead just say that I felt like I was watching a Detroit Lion's game at the end.
3 thoughts:
1. when are we going to be good again? serious question and could be it's own thread
2. based on what i have watched, i won't be disappointed when this season is over
3. wojo has not done a very good job. just disappointed. thought we would see some progress but we really aren't any better than last year. at least we beat wisconsin.......
Yup, those two missed FTs by Luke were just like a TO... coupled with all of the other TOs at the end. Tried too hard to force it down low.
Also had no clue what Wojo was doing with some of the sub patterns. Seemed like a good run with Cheatham, JJJ, Duane, Luke, and Henry until the end with all of the TOs.
OK, I'll start it.
MU with an NBA lottery pick, a potential NBA player and top 100 recruits, loses to a 6-12 (0-6BE) starting a WALK-ON at home. Those thinking NCAA, start praying for an NIT bid.
Thought when they made comeback, it was because Cohen now relagated to the bench since he has regressed and JJJ playing so much better.
MU again bombarded on offensive boards, 16 to 6, yes, 16 to 6.
Fischer missing those free throws and then 4 turnovers was just brutal and punched them in the gut.
MU was 4-14 in BE last year, do they even make 6-12 this year?
Real gut rancher loss for the team, but they have to look in mirror, that full court Depaul layup was just, well.....
Who was supposed to be guarding Garrett at the end? Obviously not Luke.
8. We need a PG.
I shouldn't post after losses. I'm thinking that Henry is leaving so we aren't going to be better next year, then Fischer will be gone they year after that. I'm starting to worry that we're years away.
I don't understand why we are such a poor shooting team. Honestly, what is it about the BMOH that makes dude in MU jerseys throw up bricks?
Quote from: Mutaman on January 20, 2016, 09:16:45 PM
Who was supposed to be guarding Garrett at the end? Obviously not Luke.
Cheatham was supposed to be guarding Garrett. He and Luke switched on the high pick.
8. Rebounding.
I feel your pain, CT.
Quote from: Mutaman on January 20, 2016, 09:16:45 PM
Who was supposed to be guarding Garrett at the end? Obviously not Luke.
Cheatham was, but they switched on the pick.
Disappointing game from Cohen and carter again. I know some on here have high expectations for cohen, but I think this is about as good as he is going to get. Also, his defense against the other teams "best" player was way overstated. He doesn't have the confidence to make winning plays. Well, maybe against Stetson he does. Maybe he'll have 18 meaningless points in the first half again on 6 threes. What a joke.
9. This team kinda sucks. That's about all we need to dive into.
Tower, you're seeing a coach that is grasping at straws right now with a young team. And, unfortunately he's never been in this position before.
Also, I wonder what NBA scouts think that when MU needs a hoop or is in late-game situations, Duane is the go-to. In Big East play, Henry's lack of athleticism is really starting to show.
Marquette needs to hire Jean Lent Ponsetto to make this program better.
Quote from: AirPunch on January 20, 2016, 09:20:15 PM
Disappointing game from Cohen and carter again. I know some on here have high expectations for cohen, but I think this is about as good as he is going to get. Also, his defense against the other teams "best" player was way overstated. He doesn't have the confidence to make winning plays. Well, maybe against Stetson he does. Maybe he'll have 18 meaningless points in the first half again on 6 threes. What a joke.
I think Cohen has regressed to the point he will be on the bench. You saw it tonight with him not starting and he played terrible. He had two fouls early, missed a wide open shot and another terrible turnover. JJJ and Anim got his minutes and look for that in the future.
Quote from: RJax55 on January 20, 2016, 09:22:11 PM
Tower, you're seeing a coach that is grasping at straws right now with a young team. And, unfortunately he's never been in this position before.
Also, I wonder what NBA scouts think that when MU needs a hoop or is in late-game situations, Duane is the go-to. In Big East play, Henry's lack of athleticism is really starting to show.
he also needs to stop pretending to be a guard.
Sliding further into irrelevance.
It could be another 2-3 years before MU makes the tournament.
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=400840240
Box score
Obviously a disappointing game. I thought the team in general played hard. Lots of good individual efforts but we couldn't put it all together. We have to regroup and win on the road versus the Johnnies.
My favorite part was Travis Diener yukking it up in the huddle during the timeout after Marquette went up by two.
Anyone else surprised to see HE on the bench for the last DePaul possession?
Quote from: tower912 on January 20, 2016, 09:10:11 PM
1. When Luke bricked those two free throws, deep in my heart, I knew.
2. Early foul trouble for Luke completely disrupted the flow in the first half.
3. JJ and Wally earned the starts with their play against X, but many struggled to figure out their roles tonight.
4. Sacar with the 3, but why was he in at the end?
5. I don't know if it was a plan of Wojo's, or something he went to after Luke got in trouble, but the substitution patterns and player combinations in the first half were puzzling, to say the least. For the first time in ages, I couldn't figure out a MU coach's substitution plan.
6. Nice bounce back game for Duane.
7. I deleted the rant that was going to go here. Let me instead just say that I felt like I was watching a Detroit Lion's game at the end.
AND Sandy has completely disappeared over the last month, his shot is broke too
Quote from: mugrack on January 20, 2016, 09:23:04 PM
Marquette needs to hire Jean Lent Ponsetto to make this program better.
This was the first time I smiled since the end of the game.
If I can smile now, more smiles will eventually come - in time...
Quote from: tower912 on January 20, 2016, 09:18:15 PM
Cheatham was supposed to be guarding Garrett. He and Luke switched on the high pick.
Several times in the game and Luke got burned each time.
Caught the end of the Virginia Tech/Notre Dame game. I am confident that Virginia Tech will make the NCAA tournament sooner than we will.
Let that sink in...
Quote from: ChuckyChip on January 20, 2016, 09:36:29 PM
Anyone else surprised to see HE on the bench for the last DePaul possession?
Yes, but it goes to show how poor his defense currently is. I believe the coaching staff was concerned that Mike Henry would get the ball and drive to the basket. And, HE struggled all night to guard him on the perimeter. So, Wojo went small.
Guard play simply isn't there this year.
Too many turnovers and forced passes.
Not explosive enough to get to the rim (and certainly not above the rim) or keep opposing guards in front of them on D.
No consistent outside shooting.
We've been lucky to watch A LOT of great guards play for MU over the last 10-15 years, and I don't see one on this team.
Still going to cheer like crazy for these guys though. I'm sure they are working their butts off.
Here's to hoping they surprise us all with some big wins a la the Davidson comeback.
Quote from: RJax55 on January 20, 2016, 09:42:02 PM
Yes, but it goes to show how poor his defense currently is. I believe the coaching staff was concerned that Mike Henry would get the ball and drive to the basket. And, HE struggled all night to guard him on the perimeter. So, Wojo went small.
Wojo and Luke referenced a leg injury for Henry in their postgame.
I again worry about the physicality of this team. Not sure if the staff fully comprehends how important that is in this conference.
Quote from: tower912 on January 20, 2016, 09:43:30 PM
Wojo and Luke referenced a leg injury for Henry in their postgame.
That would make some sense. Although HE's defense is poor, he's still 6'10''.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 20, 2016, 09:43:55 PM
I again worry about the physicality of this team. Not sure if the staff fully comprehends how important that is in this conference.
That needs to be addressed through recruiting. IIRC, when it was discussed last spring after STjr left that it looked like Wally and Sandy were going to get time at the 4, I think it was Jay Bee who said if that were the case MU was in trouble.
We've won a bunch of coin flips this year (LSU, ASU, UW, Providence). So we're due for some bad luck.
But we're not good. We've had a lot of small teams in the last 15 years (our 2009-10 team that finished 11-7 in the real Big East had a starting lineup of 5'8"",5'11", 6'2",6'5", and 6'6") but this is the worst rebounding team we've had in a long time - with two 6'11" starters. We're slow to the ball, weak going after it and get routinely out worked. Wojo said he was pleased with our fort tonight. I hope he changes his mind after watching the tape.
This guy has more conference wins in the ACC than we currently do in the Big East...
(https://media.giphy.com/media/RHddLK1r9PvvG/giphy.gif)
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 20, 2016, 09:43:55 PM
I again worry about the physicality of this team. Not sure if the staff fully comprehends how important that is in this conference.
I'm ok going smaller and softer, but if you can't shoot..
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on January 20, 2016, 09:47:29 PM
This guy has more conference wins in the ACC than we currently do in the Big East...
(https://media.giphy.com/media/RHddLK1r9PvvG/giphy.gif)
And?
Three years in a row now we will be irrelevant before Feb.
Only going to get worse from here on out too.
This sucks...
Does anybody know what Fish or HE's verticals are? It looks to me that they are out jumped consistently by much smaller players. Having said that, it will be years before this team recovers.
Quote from: tower912 on January 20, 2016, 09:26:16 PM
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=400840240
Box score
DePaul shot 38.6 %, 28.6 % from 3. And they're DePaul. Despite all that they beat us. On our home court. That's a lot to chew on.
OK, I'm not going to go off too hard. I'm more disappointed than angry. Kinda let down to be precise.
I thought this team was going to be good. Perhaps I believed the press cliippings and one-and-done for Henry. Or the highly rated recruiting class. Or the raw coach from Duke who was a Coach K protégée.
What I see is a team that lets its opponents have way too many back-door opportunities. If the back door and offensive rebounding doors were any wider open, you could drive a 747 through it and still have room for a Dreamliner. Their defense is non-existent and that's the first reason we have problems.
The second problem is we're not clicking as a team. We don't move away from the ball the way we should. Not even close. Teams give us the perimeter because they know we may score there but we're not going to beat them from downtown. I see a team that as some talent but appears way overmatched and lacks a sense of the core of college game. This may improve with time but there' a long way to go to get them to synch as a team.
Finally Wojo. My fear is that he is another Rick Majerus. A guy that in time will be a national championship coach. But it's going to take a lot of time for him to find his way. A young team with a young inexperienced coach is a prescription for disaster. I love Wojo and applaud the choice by the University to hire him. But his weaknesses as a coach are really shining through.
My one thought is whether Wojo needs his Hank -- someone who is an established college coach who can come in for a few years -- or more -- and add a maturity level we now lack. I said the same thing about the Hillbilly before he hired Jerry Wainwright.
We've got some real problems and how we respond to them between now and March is key to 2016-2017. This year died tonight. Let's worry about next year and beyond.
P.S. -- Henry aint going pro. Period. Not for at least a year and maybe two
Quote from: dgies9156 on January 20, 2016, 09:59:18 PM
OK, I'm not going to go off too hard. I'm more disappointed than angry. Kinda let down to be precise.
I thought this team was going to be good. Perhaps I believed the press cliippings and one-and-done for Henry. Or the highly rated recruiting class. Or the raw coach from Duke who was a Coach K protégée.
What I see is a team that lets its opponents have way too many back-door opportunities. If the back door and offensive rebounding doors were any wider open, you could drive a 747 through it and still have room for a Dreamliner. Their defense is non-existent and that's the first reason we have problems.
The second problem is we're not clicking as a team. We don't move away from the ball the way we should. Not even close. Teams give us the perimeter because they know we may score there but we're not going to beat them from downtown. I see a team that as some talent but appears way overmatched and lacks a sense of the core of college game. This may improve with time but there' a long way to go to get them to synch as a team.
Finally Wojo. My fear is that he is another Rick Majerus. A guy that in time will be a national championship coach. But it's going to take a lot of time for him to find his way. A young team with a young inexperienced coach is a prescription for disaster. I love Wojo and applaud the choice by the University to hire him. But his weaknesses as a coach are really shining through.
My one thought is whether Wojo needs his Hank -- someone who is an established college coach who can come in for a few years -- or more -- and add a maturity level we now lack. I said the same thing about the Hillbilly before he hired Jerry Wainwright.
We've got some real problems and how we respond to them between now and March is key to 2016-2017. This year died tonight. Let's worry about next year and beyond.
P.S. -- Henry aint going pro. Period. Not for at least a year and maybe two
I like most of this...
My biggest beef is that this is the most 'un-fun' team to watch ever. I knew the midget team was untalented and was going to lose some games - I had a heart attack every game when they made it close -- but that was a fun team. Scrapped, played hard, played to every ounce of their talent. I see this team and I dont see passion, effort, drive or really good game planning. I used to think this was an execution issue, but it may be an issue elsewhere.
Here's to things getting better.
Quote from: dgies9156 on January 20, 2016, 09:59:18 PM
OK, I'm not going to go off too hard. I'm more disappointed than angry. Kinda let down to be precise.
I thought this team was going to be good. Perhaps I believed the press cliippings and one-and-done for Henry. Or the highly rated recruiting class. Or the raw coach from Duke who was a Coach K protégée.
What I see is a team that lets its opponents have way too many back-door opportunities. If the back door and offensive rebounding doors were any wider open, you could drive a 747 through it and still have room for a Dreamliner. Their defense is non-existent and that's the first reason we have problems.
The second problem is we're not clicking as a team. We don't move away from the ball the way we should. Not even close. Teams give us the perimeter because they know we may score there but we're not going to beat them from downtown. I see a team that as some talent but appears way overmatched and lacks a sense of the core of college game. This may improve with time but there' a long way to go to get them to synch as a team.
Finally Wojo. My fear is that he is another Rick Majerus. A guy that in time will be a national championship coach. But it's going to take a lot of time for him to find his way. A young team with a young inexperienced coach is a prescription for disaster. I love Wojo and applaud the choice by the University to hire him. But his weaknesses as a coach are really shining through.
My one thought is whether Wojo needs his Hank -- someone who is an established college coach who can come in for a few years -- or more -- and add a maturity level we now lack. I said the same thing about the Hillbilly before he hired Jerry Wainwright.
We've got some real problems and how we respond to them between now and March is key to 2016-2017. This year died tonight. Let's worry about next year and beyond.
P.S. -- Henry aint going pro. Period. Not for at least a year and maybe two
Ellenson is good enough to go in the lottery this year.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 20, 2016, 10:04:23 PM
I like most of this...
My biggest beef is that this is the most 'un-fun' team to watch ever. I knew the midget team was untalented and was going to lose some games - I had a heart attack every game when they made it close -- but that was a fun team. Scrapped, played hard, played to every ounce of their talent. I see this team and I dont see passion, effort, drive or really good game planning. I used to think this was an execution issue, but it may be an issue elsewhere.
Here's to things getting better.
This team is playing as hard and as smart as they are being coached to be and I'll leave it at that.
Quote from: tower912 on January 20, 2016, 09:45:37 PM
That needs to be addressed through recruiting. IIRC, when it was discussed last spring after STjr left that it looked like Wally and Sandy were going to get time at the 4, I think it was Jay Bee who said if that were the case MU was in trouble.
? I will go on record right now that if Sandy and Wally get time at the 4 next year we are in trouble.
Stat of the game:
DePaul had 16 offensive rebounds.
Marquette had 20 defensive rebounds.
Quote from: We R Final Four on January 20, 2016, 10:12:50 PM
? I will go on record right now that if Sandy and Wally get time at the 4 next year we are in trouble.
I think Henry will still be here.
He lacks the top end athleticism that NBA GM's are looking for and his skill development is not there yet. Another year at MU to get stronger and extend his range, puts him in a better place to crack an NBA rotation early on.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 20, 2016, 10:04:23 PM
My biggest beef is that this is the most 'un-fun' team to watch ever.
I don't know if I could say EVER but I'd have to go back to the Dukiet era. My buddy and I walked out of that game wondering why we even bother to go. The games aren't any fun to watch. The offense is terrible. I simply have no idea what Wojo is trying to do on offense. I see no plan, no scheme. Even if we had won what would that have proved. We would have had the same bad offense for most of the game, the same defensive lapses leading to wide open dunks, the same failure to rebound in space.
Last year the team lacked talent but at least they worked hard and keep it close until surcoming simply not having enough bodies. This team just looks confused. Starting to think that is coaching and if its a lack of coaching there isn't much to look forward to.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 20, 2016, 10:18:07 PM
Stat of the game:
DePaul had 16 offensive rebounds.
Marquette had 20 defensive rebounds.
DePaul played harder than we did.
Quote from: dgies9156 on January 20, 2016, 09:59:18 PM
P.S. -- Henry aint going pro. Period. Not for at least a year and maybe two
I understand what you are saying....... However HE is going pro.
Quote from: We R Final Four on January 20, 2016, 10:28:49 PM
I understand what you are saying....... However HE is going pro.
Then he better get a whole lot better in a heap of hurry.
No way, no how. He is no more pro right now than I am. And I am in my 50s and slow.
Henry is a good kid who works hard. But compare him to the Kentucky or Duke one-and-dones. Not even close.
Huge mistake if he goes.
Quote from: dgies9156 on January 20, 2016, 10:37:05 PM
Then he better get a whole lot better in a heap of hurry.
No way, no how. He is no more pro right now than I am. And I am in my 50s and slow.
Henry is a good kid who works hard. But compare him to the Kentucky or Duke one-and-dones. Not even close.
Huge mistake if he goes.
I think you need to pay more attention to the NBA draft.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 20, 2016, 10:18:07 PM
Stat of the game:
DePaul had 16 offensive rebounds.
Marquette had 20 defensive rebounds.
Well said. And I know some disagree, but rebounding is about heart and fire first, and size second. We have the size. We don't get the rebounds.
Wojo has resorted to using starting as the carrot and the bench as the stick.
I'm full of praise for Wally, but there's no way in the world he's a starter on a Big East team. He's an energy guy off the bench who should be getting 12-15 minutes.
I pretty much see JJJ the same way. His offensive capability can change the game, but MU cannot play "his way" for an entire game because he's often the only athlete on the court.
As a result of these two starting, the rotations were off and guys who haven't played much together didn't know what to do. This cost us about 6-8 points in the first half... and cost us the game.
Duane should sit next game. He only makes shots every other game. (half serious).
Good minutes from Heldt defensively. No-one will give him the ball. He was sooooo open on the post a couple times it would have been a better option than what transpired in the rest of the possession.
Nice to see Sacar contribute. Can see him getting 3-7 legit minutes from here on out.
Don't know what to say about Henry. I want him to succeed and want him to develop further... the good point for today was at least no offensive fouls!
I hate to say it, but coaching cost us this game.
We panicked at the end. Had ten TOs with about three minutes left...finished with 15.
Early foul trouble for Luke was brutal. Start Heldt to protect Fischer? A la joe fulce starting for Crowder
Defense was fantastic. Depaul is a decent offensive team. We made them look like a bad offensive team. But we lost, which tells you how bad our offense was
It took awhile, but Im finally tired of people saying Henry can shoot the three. HOWEVER, Henry turned down some open threes that he wouldve taken before. Maybe hes learning.
Need to rebound as a team. We are SO bad at it. Biggest point of concern for me.
JJJ looked good. He needs to teach the others how to drive.
If Wojo can keep this group together, especially if he brings in Markus Howard, we will be a very good team. The biggest jump in production is from freshman to sophomore year. We gotta lot of freshmen who will make some big jumps.
That was a phantom call at the end. As a ref, you cant make that call to decide a game. Poor officiating...but you cant let yourself get in a posotion where one bad call can end it for you
*Worst conference offense this century. No identity or set rotations, just looking lost. Surprised at this point with early start in Italy that there has been no progression. Will be watching that closely.
*Five turnovers at the end to go with two bricks on the free throws. Six empty possessions.
*If Duane isn't a PG, neither is Cheatham. Why doesn't Duane start again?
*One Henry gobbled up another.
*DePaul guard blow bys led to Luke fouls. MU needs Luke.
*At this point, MU is a bottom dweller. Tough one
*BE is an urban league, not a finesse league.
*In the double bonus, MU elects NOT take it to the hoop.
Let's put it this way, I'm just done. This is coming from someone who spent their entire undergrad years waiting at least 2 hours per game and close to 10 for Wisconisn.
Marquette basketball got me through my undergrad years and I can't effing take it anymore. I don't even know who to blame but I'll be damned if I spend another penny watching them play.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on January 21, 2016, 02:40:38 AM
Let's put it this way, I'm just done. This is coming from someone who spent their entire undergrad years waiting at least 2 hours per game and close to 10 for Wisconisn.
Marquette basketball got me through my undergrad years and I can't effing take it anymore. I don't even know who to blame but I'll be damned if I spend another penny watching them play.
Just to clarify, if they become good again, will you be willing to spend your money?
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 21, 2016, 02:45:58 AM
Just to clarify, if they become good again, will you be willing to spend your money?
Probably not just for logistical reasons. Hard for me to get up to milwaukee twice a week since I'm working full time now. The whole losing thing doesn't help either.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on January 21, 2016, 02:47:46 AM
Probably not just for logistical reasons. Hard for me to get up to milwaukee twice a week since I'm working full time now. The whole losing thing doesn't help either.
For some reason I was thinking beyond just attending a game. Merchandise, etc.
Also, I didn't mean this season "if they become good again." I meant ever again.
Quote from: WarriorFan on January 20, 2016, 10:58:23 PM
Wojo has resorted to using starting as the carrot and the bench as the stick.
I'm full of praise for Wally, but there's no way in the world he's a starter on a Big East team. He's an energy guy off the bench who should be getting 12-15 minutes.
I pretty much see JJJ the same way. His offensive capability can change the game, but MU cannot play "his way" for an entire game because he's often the only athlete on the court.
As a result of these two starting, the rotations were off and guys who haven't played much together didn't know what to do. This cost us about 6-8 points in the first half... and cost us the game.
Duane should sit next game. He only makes shots every other game. (half serious).
Good minutes from Heldt defensively. No-one will give him the ball. He was sooooo open on the post a couple times it would have been a better option than what transpired in the rest of the possession.
Nice to see Sacar contribute. Can see him getting 3-7 legit minutes from here on out.
Don't know what to say about Henry. I want him to succeed and want him to develop further... the good point for today was at least no offensive fouls!
I hate to say it, but coaching cost us this game.
Sounds to me like your analysis mirrors the uncertainty of Wojo, who can't tell (or figure out) what he'll get from each player any given game. Last night we saw him essentially grasping at straws, changing the starting lineup, giving Heldt more time, playing Anim for the first time in numerous games.
You're right that the rotations were off due to such changes, but then advocate for sitting Duane and getting Anim 3-7 minutes.
Wojo is reaching, and maybe he needs to do so, but last night it didn't work. I'm not a coach and I can't suggest anything any better or different, but I sure want to see different results.
This team reminds me of the early 90's Kevin O'Neil teams. Back then I always thought we had these highly related recruits and we would instantly be good and win right away. I was constantly reminded by Marquette friends that they're only Freshman and will eventually get better and we did. We have a team with no Seniors, 2 Juniors (and one who only played half a season last year) and three freshman playing significant minutes.
I'm a fan and of course I want to win now, and it's hard to be patient, but we have a very young team that unfortunately often plays like one.
Let's all step back from the ledge and hope they find that team rhythm.
You are correct MU fan in Connecticut.I will say that with the one remaining scholarship,it is imperative that MU recruits an inside player that can rebound.Can not keep giving up offensive rebounds.As much as I like Markus Howard he is not a priority if he is a 2016 recruit.If another opening becomes available then I would take him in a minute.For those of you that have not seen him play,he is not a true point guard.He is an unbelievable shooter though.Hopefully with Rowsey and Hauser our outside shooting will improve next year.
Quote from: forgetful on January 20, 2016, 10:55:28 PM
Well said. And I know some disagree, but rebounding is about heart and fire first, and size second. We have the size. We don't get the rebounds.
I've been harping on the horrendous rebounding since the season started, and it has not improved. I don't believe it is a want to issue as much as it is a how to issue. I think collectively, their technique stinks. They are slow to get position, get too far under the hoop (Fischer and Ellenson see way too many balls go right over their heads), etc. Not getting better.
Which brings me to Wojo and staff. Recruiting is most important, and I think he can continue to do well there. Unfortunately, so do a whole bunch of other guys. My fear is that he's a good rah rah, win every day, play hard, slap the floor guy, who will continually get his head handed to him when it comes to development, in game match ups, etc. it's only been a year and a half, so time will tell, but it appears to this novice that he has a long, long way to go.
Staff plays a role in that as well. A thought occurred to me last night. Of all the guys on that staff, the one guy I see potentially becoming a head coach someday, is actually Deiner - if he's interested, that is. Never would have said that 4-5 months ago when he took (requested) the job without a very prominent roll.
Quote from: We R Final Four on January 20, 2016, 10:28:49 PM
I understand what you are saying....... However HE is going pro.
There are very few players in the NBA who would not torch HE for 25 points. If he thinks he is ready for the NBA, God bless him.
Quote from: ecompt on January 21, 2016, 08:23:24 AM
There are very few players in the NBA who would not torch HE for 25 points. If he thinks he is ready for the NBA, God bless him.
I'm guessing you haven't seen Skal from Kentucky play? Henry is light years ahead of him & both will be top picks. Again, nba is all on potential
I missed a big chunk of the second half, but in the last 3-4 minutes, Cheatham and Johnson combined for 4 turnovers, 2 fouls and some questionable defense. No Traci Carter...anyone have an explanation for that?
Wojo shuffled the rotation, Traci hadn't played much before the last 5 minutes, and when he did play, he wasn't effective. Having said all of that, yeah, Traci probably should have been in the game.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on January 21, 2016, 02:40:38 AM
Let's put it this way, I'm just done. This is coming from someone who spent their entire undergrad years waiting at least 2 hours per game and close to 10 for Wisconisn.
Marquette basketball got me through my undergrad years and I can't effing take it anymore. I don't even know who to blame but I'll be damned if I spend another penny watching them play.
Little fatherly advice. I think you're taking this a bit too far. Is it worth driving from Chicago for an 8p Wednesday game right now? No way, and they have no right to expect that you will given their performance over the last 3 years. But NEVER is a long time. Find other things for awhile. Catch a game on TV. Hit that Saturday night game against Creighton so you can hang with your buddies and National Marquette Day as a show of unity. Just don't build your life around #mubb.
I have just a bit of perspective on this. I barely remember the Ice Bowl. After that the Packers were baaadd for more than 20 years but I was still a fan. It's not like I cheered for the Bears or anything. (Ok, sure I did in 1985 in my early years in Chicago.) 30 years later when the Pack finally won the championship I came to realize that my life really hadn't changed and I was still at work the next morning. Really happy, but at work. I knew in that moment that my sports life couldn't get any better. The pinnacle had been achieved. Nirvana. But my life still wasn't perfect. So I told myself that I'd never get too high or low. I'd worry more about things that mattered.
Morning after thoughts...
.
- Rebounding sucks. Giving up 44.4% of the defensive rebound chances to the offense? That's pathetic.
- Henry is not good right now. Frankly, he hasn't been very good against top competition all season. Decent rebounder, but horribly inefficient on offense. I can't believe I'm saying this, but this team may be better off with Steve Taylor. We have more need of a tough rebounder than we do a high usage, low efficiency scorer.
- The schedule backfired. We didn't learn how to win, we learned how to play without effort.
- I've seen some parallels to 2010. The 2-5 start with a loss to DePaul. But that team had 4 losses to top-10 teams by 10 combined points. This ain't 2010.
- We were terrible offensively, yet our only PG played 13 minutes.
- For years, we've mocked DePaul. Now it feels like we are DePaul.
- The great thing about freshmen is they become sophomores. Both Duane and Sandy have been more efficient this year than last. Luke has been too. Have to think this will get better. Even without Henry.
- Rotations were out of whack last night. Rewarding Wally and Jajuan with starting roles was unnecessary. You can increase minutes without reducing cohesiveness.
- The staff looks just as inexperienced as the players. Wojo was outcoached by Leitao last night.
Quote from: mug644 on January 21, 2016, 06:03:42 AM
Sounds to me like your analysis mirrors the uncertainty of Wojo, who can't tell (or figure out) what he'll get from each player any given game. Last night we saw him essentially grasping at straws, changing the starting lineup, giving Heldt more time, playing Anim for the first time in numerous games.
You're right that the rotations were off due to such changes, but then advocate for sitting Duane and getting Anim 3-7 minutes.
Wojo is reaching, and maybe he needs to do so, but last night it didn't work. I'm not a coach and I can't suggest anything any better or different, but I sure want to see different results.
At this point, Wojo appears to be sending guys out there and hoping that they earn themselves more minutes or at least have a productive stretch. Wally and JJJ played well against X so he threw them out there and hoped they'd keep it up. Wally did nothing and JJJ played relatively well but was up and down. Anim played respectably but it's clear he's a year away from contributing. Sandy is a spot-up shooter who's lost his mechanics, which makes him tough to play. Carter plays like a freshman PG. Heldt is simply not ready yet. Haanif makes 2 good plays followed by a boneheaded one. Luke can't stay out of foul trouble (in large part because of MU's porous perimeter D). Henry needs to develop a go-to move offensively and learn to play at least a little bit of D. Duane played his best game of the season last night but he can obviously go hot and cold.
It's VERY tough to set a rotation when you have no idea what each player is going to give you on a given night. Duane, Henry and Luke are going to get their PT but there are plenty of other minutes to be had. Hopefully someone steps up and takes advantage of the opportunity.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 21, 2016, 08:46:13 AM
Morning after thoughts...
- The staff looks just as inexperienced as the players. Wojo was outcoached by Leitao last night.[/b]
Some really strong points in this post but I want to focus on this one.
I've said before, but I'd really like to see Wojo with a grizzled veteran coach on the bench. It doesn't necessarily need to be a former
head coach, just a guy who's been there before, can give some tips to Wojo and be an X's and O's guy.
Wojo can recruit and Wojo can motivate. What I'm not sure Wojo has is the ability to draw up a play to get a bucket or, better yet, have a stash of plays in his back pocket to pull out when MU is sputtering offensively. After a timeout, how often do you see MU run a set play that gets them a good look? How often do you see MU run a set play at all? It's very rare. I'm not saying that MU should have a 100-page playbook, but when the opposing team is going on a run, it's important to have a few plays that you're fairly certain will result in at least a trip to the FT line.
To be clear, I liked the Wojo hiring and I honestly believe he's going to be a very good coach, but he obviously has his weaknesses and I don't feel like his coaching staff as assembled can necessarily keep those from being exposed.
Quote from: tower912 on January 21, 2016, 08:36:11 AM
Wojo shuffled the rotation, Traci hadn't played much before the last 5 minutes, and when he did play, he wasn't effective. Having said all of that, yeah, Traci probably should have been in the game.
Traci has a lot of flaws - can't shoot, loose handle, etc. but he's (by far) our best on ball defender. That he wasn't in and guarding Garrett in that situation is inexcusable.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 21, 2016, 09:29:19 AM
Traci has a lot of flaws - can't shoot, loose handle, etc. but he's (by far) our best on ball defender. That he wasn't in and guarding Garrett in that situation is inexcusable.
Carter wouldn't have been guarding him anyway. Haanif had done an excellent job on Garrett all night (4-18, 4 TOs at that point). Luke got switched onto him and there was no help. There was also no foul but that's a different story...
I think most will agree the problem is the offense. After having an extra 11 days practice due to the Europe trip and now being well into the 4 month of practice the players should be familiar with what they are supposed to do and the staff should have evaluated the strengths and weaknesses of the players and come up with plays that build on strengths. If they can't do that its bad coaching.
What built the little lead in the second half last night is a clinic on what the MU offense must do to be successful. JJJ got the ball outside the 3 point line and drove the ball across the top of the key and past the free throw line extended. This puts him inside the defense and causes the defense to react. He then quickly hit the big with a pass (in each case it was Fisher but it could have been HE). We need to do this all the time from both sides of the floor and using different people on the drive. I love Haniff but I have yet to ever see him pass off a drive. Duane and Traci seldom do this. Driving is not always about getting all the way to the hoop. The key to all of this is it needs to be fast and the team needs to know what is coming and MOVE when it happens. If they don't know when to move and where to be that's bad coaching again.
Quote from: NotAnAlum on January 21, 2016, 09:47:04 AM
I love Haniff but I have yet to ever see him pass off a drive. Duane and Traci seldom do this.
You are correct. Cheatham, particularly, does not throw interior passes off the drive. He almost always throws some sort of shot at the rim, but if he does pass it is usually back to someone on the preimter who is not in a position to shoot. Carter looks to make the pass, but hasn't had much success yet.
Traci cater cant shoot he cant. Thinks or Reggie smith well with less defense..
Quote from: CTWarrior on January 21, 2016, 09:51:49 AM
You are correct. Cheatham, particularly, does not throw interior passes off the drive. He almost always throws some sort of shot at the rim, but if he does pass it is usually back to someone on the preimter who is not in a position to shoot other team.
FIFY
Quote from: CTWarrior on January 21, 2016, 09:51:49 AM
You are correct. Cheatham, particularly, does not throw interior passes off the drive. He almost always throws some sort of shot at the rim, but if he does pass it is usually back to someone on the preimter who is not in a position to shoot.
This. My main beef with Cheatham is his awful Ast / TO statistics (43 assists & 55 turnovers). He is still shooting 45% from deep, but doesn't let it fly enough (leads team in %, but 6th in attempts)
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 21, 2016, 09:24:26 AM
Some really strong points in this post but I want to focus on this one.
I've said before, but I'd really like to see Wojo with a grizzled veteran coach on the bench. It doesn't necessarily need to be a former
head coach, just a guy who's been there before, can give some tips to Wojo and be an X's and O's guy.
Wojo can recruit and Wojo can motivate. What I'm not sure Wojo has is the ability to draw up a play to get a bucket or, better yet, have a stash of plays in his back pocket to pull out when MU is sputtering offensively. After a timeout, how often do you see MU run a set play that gets them a good look? How often do you see MU run a set play at all? It's very rare. I'm not saying that MU should have a 100-page playbook, but when the opposing team is going on a run, it's important to have a few plays that you're fairly certain will result in at least a trip to the FT line.
To be clear, I liked the Wojo hiring and I honestly believe he's going to be a very good coach, but he obviously has his weaknesses and I don't feel like his coaching staff as assembled can necessarily keep those from being exposed.
Let me agree but take it in a slightly different direction. I am beginning to think that Crean and Buzz were both far more ready than Wojo to take over at MU. Crean and Buzz had both coached multiple places for multiple coaches in multiples schemes. Wojo only knows the Duke way. Crean and Buzz had both been assistants at mid-level programs that lost a lot of games. Wojo only knows the Duke way. Crean and Buzz brought in assistants with vastly different backgrounds, areas of expertise, etc. Wojo brought in a number of guys around his age, only one of whom had ever sat in the big chair and he wasn't successful at it.
The losing, the struggling, the multiple programs and multiple systems better prepared Crean and Buzz. Crean struggled initially, but was in a far less difficult conference than Buzz or Wojo and found his way. Buzz had the year at UNO to help him develop a 2.0 plan for when he took over at MU. Wojo..... started with a bad team in a brutal conference with a lack of experience around him. And here we are. [/list]
I believe both crean and even more so Buzz had to really work there tails off to even sniff Marquette. One wonders if sitting next to a Basketball Hall of famer only goes so far..
Quote from: tower912 on January 21, 2016, 10:00:17 AM
Let me agree but take it in a slightly different direction. I am beginning to think that Crean and Buzz were both far more ready than Wojo to take over at MU. Crean and Buzz had both coached multiple places for multiple coaches in multiples schemes. Wojo only knows the Duke way. Crean and Buzz had both been assistants at mid-level programs that lost a lot of games. Wojo only knows the Duke way. Crean and Buzz brought in assistants with vastly different backgrounds, areas of expertise, etc. Wojo brought in a number of guys around his age, only one of whom had ever sat in the big chair and he wasn't successful at it.
The losing, the struggling, the multiple programs and multiple systems better prepared Crean and Buzz. Crean struggled initially, but was in a far less difficult conference than Buzz or Wojo and found his way. Buzz had the year at UNO to help him develop a 2.0 plan for when he took over at MU. Wojo..... started with a bad team in a brutal conference with a lack of experience around him. And here we are.
Can't disagree with any of this. A great deal can be learned from struggles and adversity and change. While an assistant at Duke, the team went an average of 29-6, winning 2 national titles. MU's current state is a far cry from that. At this point, Wojo is like the coddled rich kid struggling to find his way in the "real world." He'll either figure it out and succeed or he'll be back in mom and dad's basement in a few years.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 21, 2016, 08:46:13 AM
Morning after thoughts...
.
- Rebounding sucks. Giving up 44.4% of the defensive rebound chances to the offense? That's pathetic.
- Henry is not good right now. Frankly, he hasn't been very good against top competition all season. Decent rebounder, but horribly inefficient on offense. I can't believe I'm saying this, but this team may be better off with Steve Taylor. We have more need of a tough rebounder than we do a high usage, low efficiency scorer.
- The schedule backfired. We didn't learn how to win, we learned how to play without effort.
- I've seen some parallels to 2010. The 2-5 start with a loss to DePaul. But that team had 4 losses to top-10 teams by 10 combined points. This ain't 2010.
- We were terrible offensively, yet our only PG played 13 minutes.
- For years, we've mocked DePaul. Now it feels like we are DePaul.
- The great thing about freshmen is they become sophomores. Both Duane and Sandy have been more efficient this year than last. Luke has been too. Have to think this will get better. Even without Henry.
- Rotations were out of whack last night. Rewarding Wally and Jajuan with starting roles was unnecessary. You can increase minutes without reducing cohesiveness.
- The staff looks just as inexperienced as the players. Wojo was outcoached by Leitao last night.
Talented group individually. Mostly inexperienced which really hurts. I bleed Marquette and was a huge Buzz supporter so I wasn't thrilled with the Wojo hire and unfortunately, watching this team play over the last 2 years my disappointment over the state of the program is a lot more down than what it should be. Having said that, this is why I am so disappointed:
1. We have the individual talent to be better than what we are. No way should we lose to DePaul and have a 2-5 conference record at this point in time.
2. Teams mirror their coaches. I expected much better defensive fundamentals and mental and physical toughness. We have NONE of that.
3. The turnover problem should have been expected, we only have 1 point guard on the team and that is an average freshmen at best.
4. The lack of experience that hurts the most is the make-up of the coaching staff. Wojo is an inexperienced head coach and needed a mentor and some more experienced assistant coaches on the bench with him. Buzz while inexperienced as a head coach, had mentors and veterans around him all the time.
5. The lack of physical toughness is the cause of our defensive and rebounding woes. With a very lackluster offense, we don't have a leg to stand on as a base when things go bad.
6. Wojo needs to right the ship quickly. Lack of any improvement this year or next and admin will need to cut the cord quickly and fill in with a more experienced coach.
"Hey Marquette! You f#cking stink!"
(http://binaryapi.ap.org/2940615890a34c88b089a76fc7aba946/512x.jpg)
Quote from: mufanatic on January 21, 2016, 11:28:05 AM
1. We have the individual talent to be better than what we are. No way should we lose to DePaul and have a 2-5 conference record at this point in time.
2. Teams mirror their coaches. I expected much better defensive fundamentals and mental and physical toughness. We have NONE of that.
3. The turnover problem should have been expected, we only have 1 point guard on the team and that is an average freshmen at best.
4. The lack of experience that hurts the most is the make-up of the coaching staff. Wojo is an inexperienced head coach and needed a mentor and some more experienced assistant coaches on the bench with him. Buzz while inexperienced as a head coach, had mentors and veterans around him all the time.
5. The lack of physical toughness is the cause of our defensive and rebounding woes. With a very lackluster offense, we don't have a leg to stand on as a base when things go bad.
6. Wojo needs to right the ship quickly. Lack of any improvement this year or next and admin will need to cut the cord quickly and fill in with a more experienced coach.
1. But its young. Experience matters.
2. Agreed.
3. Yep.
4. Maybe Coach K will join the staff when he retires. But in all seriousness, I think this is an issue.
5. YES!!!!
6. He will get four years at least.
Quote from: NotAnAlum on January 21, 2016, 09:47:04 AM
I think most will agree the problem is the offense. After having an extra 11 days practice due to the Europe trip and now being well into the 4 month of practice the players should be familiar with what they are supposed to do and the staff should have evaluated the strengths and weaknesses of the players and come up with plays that build on strengths. If they can't do that its bad coaching.
What built the little lead in the second half last night is a clinic on what the MU offense must do to be successful. JJJ got the ball outside the 3 point line and drove the ball across the top of the key and past the free throw line extended. This puts him inside the defense and causes the defense to react. He then quickly hit the big with a pass (in each case it was Fisher but it could have been HE). We need to do this all the time from both sides of the floor and using different people on the drive. I love Haniff but I have yet to ever see him pass off a drive. Duane and Traci seldom do this. Driving is not always about getting all the way to the hoop. The key to all of this is it needs to be fast and the team needs to know what is coming and MOVE when it happens. If they don't know when to move and where to be that's bad coaching again.
This is an accurate analysis and a very good point.
Quote from: CTWarrior on January 20, 2016, 09:16:59 PM
8. We need a PG.
I shouldn't post after losses. I'm thinking that Henry is leaving so we aren't going to be better next year, then Fischer will be gone they year after that. I'm starting to worry that we're years away.
I wouldn't be surprised if Heldt wasn't better than Fischer is now when Matt is a junior and presumably takes over at center.
Quote from: mugrack on January 20, 2016, 09:23:04 PM
Marquette needs to hire Jean Lent Ponsetto to make this program better.
Just tell her that its the women's team.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on January 21, 2016, 02:47:46 AM
Probably not just for logistical reasons. Hard for me to get up to milwaukee twice a week since I'm working full time now. The whole losing thing doesn't help either.
One thought:
"Just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in"
We'll keep the light on for you>
turn-overs, turn-overs, turn-overs
trying to jam a square peg in to a round hole. play says we go inside, BUT, not if the guy is triple teamed!!! opposing teams seem to know what we are trying to do + bad passing + dribbling ball off ones foot + foul trouble + weak bench + long stretches of "goose eggs"....
i think wojo has to go back to basics-hoosier ball. not TC of bobby k hoosier-ball, but the movie "hoosiers" break 'em all down and start with the picket fence...SOMETHING
Quote from: rocket surgeon on January 21, 2016, 09:12:17 PM
turn-overs, turn-overs, turn-overs
trying to jam a square peg in to a round hole. play says we go inside, BUT, not if the guy is triple teamed!!! opposing teams seem to know what we are trying to do + bad passing + dribbling ball off ones foot + foul trouble + weak bench + long stretches of "goose eggs"....
i think wojo has to go back to basics-hoosier ball. not TC of bobby k hoosier-ball, but the movie "hoosiers" break 'em all down and start with the picket fence...SOMETHING
damn right--we need to bring back Ollie's underhanded FT. Fischer would have made them both.