Couple observations
Watching how these teams space the floor, move the ball, and shoot the three it is very clear Marquette is way behind the better teams this year. Even when OU felol behind by more than ten they maintained their poise and got right back in.
Also, watching Burton, he is atrocious at both ends. Bilas is actually pointing out repeatedly how inept Burton is at defense.
Mccay was a real loss but Burton was unfortunately uncoachable at MU and apparently the same at ISU.
I was just going to post that about McKay. He just got his 4th block then led the student section (full attendance, by the way) in cheering.
McKay would have been a Marquette great had he stayed.
Quote from: keefe on January 18, 2016, 09:31:11 PM
Couple observations
Watching how these teams space the floor, move the ball, and shoot the three it is very clear Marquette is way behind the better teams this year. Even when OU felol behind by more than ten they maintained their poise and got right back in.
Also, watching Burton, he is atrocious at both ends. Bilas is actually pointing out repeatedly how inept Burton is at defense.
I will say MU has come back in a couple games this year after being down. Most recently, being down 16 to Nova.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 18, 2016, 09:55:16 PM
I will say MU has come back in a couple games this year after being down. Most recently, being down 16 to Nova.
No doubt. My only observation is that these two teams play so seamlessly. It just illustrates how far off we are from the ranked teams.
Isu is real good when they are clicking.
Problem is their defense(usually atrocious) and lack of depth. McKay looked great tonight but he's disappointed their fans a lot with his bad help D and biffed lay ups.
Niang is insane though. They sre always prone to win/lose because of their scoring and poor D.
Prohm just needs to pound it through to Nader that he's worse thank Hank at 3s. And Thomas that long 2s are not his game.
Oklahomas bigs were awful tonight and ISU killed them in paint
I don't recall when McKay left. Was there ever a reason given for why he left?
Quote from: Skitch on January 18, 2016, 10:08:30 PM
Was there ever a reason given for why he left?
Came to post that it's hard watching ISU because McKay is a freaking stud. Im also curious why he left.
Quote from: WarriorPride68 on January 18, 2016, 10:22:06 PM
Came to post that it's hard watching ISU because McKay is a freaking stud. Im also curious why he left.
Impatience and tampering.
Quote from: MUfan12 on January 18, 2016, 10:29:12 PM
Impatience and tampering.
No.
Bert wanted to play O2Chainz and DeDe together, so McKay's role on the team was set to be the backup 5, despite being recruited as a 4. He wasn't down with that so he looked into other options.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on January 18, 2016, 10:07:26 PM
Prohm just needs to pound it through to Nader that he's worse thank Hank at 3s.
Was shooting over .400 from 3 earlier this year went cold lately before tonight's 20 points. Still shooting over. 300 from 3.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 18, 2016, 10:36:52 PM
No.
Bert wanted to play O2Chainz and DeDe together, so McKay's role on the team was set to be the backup 5, despite being recruited as a 4. He wasn't down with that so he looked into other options.
Yes.
He was too impatient to even see how spectacularly that frontcourt would fail. The dude left the day after Madness.
Quote from: MUfan12 on January 18, 2016, 10:41:13 PM
Yes.
He was too impatient to even see how spectacularly that frontcourt would fail. The dude left the day after Madness.
Yes he was impatient, no to tampering. And he had a right to be impatient. During his recruitment he was told he would get significant playing time at the 4. When he got to campus he was told he was the backup 5 to a kid he was clearly better than. Part of the risk of a coach lying to a kid during his recruitment is the kid getting impatient quickly.
[quote author=keefe link=topic=50276.msg794890#msg794890 date=1453174271
Also, watching Burton, he is atrocious at both ends. Bilas is actually pointing out repeatedly how inept Burton is at defense.
[/quote]
So not such a huge loss as some have repeatedly stated?
Quote from: wadesworld on January 18, 2016, 10:43:55 PM
Yes he was impatient, no to tampering. And he had a right to be impatient. During his recruitment he was told he would get significant playing time at the 4. When he got to campus he was told he was the backup 5 to a kid he was clearly better than. Part of the risk of a coach lying to a kid during his recruitment is the kid getting impatient quickly.
Also he chafed at Buzz military precision rules etc. Was a huge mistake by Buzz to let this kid go. Remember we could have redshirted Taylor that year and let his knee get fully healed as well if we had McKay.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 18, 2016, 10:36:52 PM
No.
Bert wanted to play O2Chainz and DeDe together, so McKay's role on the team was set to be the backup 5, despite being recruited as a 4. He wasn't down with that so he looked into other options.
Sorry, I'm old. Who?
Except if McKay stayed, he wouldn't be playing this year. Just the past 2 years. We still wouldn't have made the tournament even with him here. Don't kid yourselves.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on January 18, 2016, 10:52:38 PM
Except if McKay stayed, he wouldn't be playing this year. Just the past 2 years. We still wouldn't have made the tournament even with him here. Don't kid yourselves.
Thank you.
No one laments transfers quite like MU fans. I for one, can't believe Crean ran off Amoroso.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on January 18, 2016, 10:39:59 PM
Was shooting over .400 from 3 earlier this year went cold lately before tonight's 20 points. Still shooting over. 300 from 3.
He's seriously bordering on very good when he sticks to attacking. The only 3 I can remember him hitting was the Cincy winner and even then it was 1/5.
And same goes for Thomas(for his role) if he takes rhythm 3s instead of deep 2s off the dribble.
It also helps Oklahoma and Iowa State to have 2-3 guys -- especially seniors and probable lottery picks Hield and Niang -- who can totally take over a game in crunch time.
McKay would have been a help two years ago, though we still would have had the worst starting backcourt in the nation. Hard to say he would have made last year's team matter much. And he wouldn't have been around this year.
As for Burton, seems to be a nice kid. Yet another guy some Scoopers anointed as a possible NBAer who ... well ... ain't. Black hole on offense; sieve on defense. Did I mention that he seems to be a nice kid?
Is Wojo after McKinley Wright pretty hard? Noticed him in the locker room post game on Sportscenter, after the game.
i liked burton too, but many were getting all geeked with his explosions to the hoop and slam, but forget about the rest of the game. i just wasn't seeing what others were projecting, so i just sat back and watched. can't keep subbing the guy every time they transition to D, then back out for O obviously
After watching a few ISU games recently, my thoughts for McKay obviously haven't changed: great effort around the rim, quick off his feet, and a passion to rebound. All things any MU team could benefit from. Moving on.
I gotta admit that I've grown impressive of Matt Thomas. He came in billed as a great shooter (if I recall, Buzz didn't show much interest in, right?), and definitely has found his stroke. As a starter, what's really impressed me has been his defense. He's in tremendous shape and is fundamentally sound on all aspects of the game. Having a reliable jumper like his, unlike JJJ or Duane, would be a difference maker.
That brings me to Mr. Burton. Oh Deonte, Deonte, where have you gone? Looks like he's put on 10-15 lbs (not like needed to), looks lost on defense AND offense. ISU's starting five plays more minutes than any team in the country, meaning Deonte's importance is going to be crucial down the stretch as legs get tired. I'm right with a lot of Scoopers who fell in love with Deonte's frame, reckless aggression, and cradle jams. Here's to hoping he puts it all together. He's a player I will always play the shoulda coulda game with.
Last time I'm going to talk about Marquette West players.
Buddy Hield...your table is ready. That dude can fill it up. Reminiscent of Curry's Davidson days, but with a better build. Stud.
I know McKay would be gone by now had he stayed, and it is not likely he would have improved our last two seasons enough for us to do much of anything given our weaknesses elsewhere, but he is exactly the kind of college player we haven't had on our roster in a long time. The 6-9 super athlete who rebounds and protects the lane. Seems like there are a lot of those guys out there, but we never seem to have one.
We probably don't miss that kind of guy as much this year as in years past, because while Fischer and Henry are not super-athletic, they are tall, skilled and effective. I enjoy watching the McKay type of player, though.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 18, 2016, 10:43:55 PM
Yes he was impatient, no to tampering. And he had a right to be impatient. During his recruitment he was told he would get significant playing time at the 4. When he got to campus he was told he was the backup 5 to a kid he was clearly better than. Part of the risk of a coach lying to a kid during his recruitment is the kid getting impatient quickly.
By the letter of the law, there was no tampering. Intermediaries played a part however.
Quote from: Wade for President on January 19, 2016, 06:19:48 AM
That brings me to Mr. Burton. Oh Deonte, Deonte, where have you gone? Looks like he's put on 10-15 lbs (not like needed to), looks lost on defense AND offense. ISU's starting five plays more minutes than any team in the country, meaning Deonte's importance is going to be crucial down the stretch as legs get tired. I'm right with a lot of Scoopers who fell in love with Deonte's frame, reckless aggression, and cradle jams. Here's to hoping he puts it all together. He's a player I will always play the shoulda coulda game with.
I wish he would have been better coached in high school.
Quote from: Wade for President on January 19, 2016, 06:19:48 AM
I gotta admit that I've grown impressive of Matt Thomas. He came in billed as a great shooter (if I recall, Buzz didn't show much interest in, right?), and definitely has found his stroke. As a starter, what's really impressed me has been his defense. He's in tremendous shape and is fundamentally sound on all aspects of the game. Having a reliable jumper like his, unlike JJJ or Duane, would be a difference maker.
Matt Thomas looked a bit like a wasted scholarship after his sophomore year. That should show you what hard work can do to get someone contributing on a D1 team. Exactly why you shouldn't write off players and expect they aren't going to improve further.
Keefe
Agreed that McKay could have been a Warrior great. Unfortunate Buzz f'd that up.
Quote from: Wade for President on January 19, 2016, 06:19:48 AM
That brings me to Mr. Burton. Oh Deonte, Deonte, where have you gone? Looks like he's put on 10-15 lbs (not like needed to), looks lost on defense AND offense. ISU's starting five plays more minutes than any team in the country, meaning Deonte's importance is going to be crucial down the stretch as legs get tired. I'm right with a lot of Scoopers who fell in love with Deonte's frame, reckless aggression, and cradle jams. Here's to hoping he puts it all together. He's a player I will always play the shoulda coulda game with.
Buddy Hield...your table is ready. That dude can fill it up. Reminiscent of Curry's Davidson days, but with a better build. Stud.
Agree 100% on both Burton and Hield. It's amazing how effortless Hield can make difficult shots look. Double-teamed, fadeaway - nothing but nylon.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 19, 2016, 08:16:15 AM
By the letter of the law, there was no tampering. Intermediaries played a part however.
Tampering might not be the right word, but both McKay and Burton definitely had someone in their ear pushing them straight to ISU. And I have little doubt that voice had their own interests in mind.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 19, 2016, 11:11:54 AM
Tampering might not be the right word, but both McKay and Burton definitely had someone in their ear pushing them straight to ISU. And I have little doubt that voice had their own interests in mind.
Remember that McKay and Burton were former AAU teammates.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 19, 2016, 11:11:54 AM
Tampering might not be the right word, but both McKay and Burton definitely had someone in their ear pushing them straight to ISU. And I have little doubt that voice had their own interests in mind.
Yup. I shouldn't have used "tampering," but the same guy was in their ear, and had contact with ISU prior to their release.
Quote from: Goose on January 19, 2016, 10:00:33 AM
Keefe
Agreed that McKay could have been a Warrior great. Unfortunate Buzz f'd that up.
McKay had Black Swan II written all over him
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 19, 2016, 08:26:41 AM
Matt Thomas looked a bit like a wasted scholarship after his sophomore year. That should show you what hard work can do to get someone contributing on a D1 team. Exactly why you shouldn't write off players and expect they aren't going to improve further.
Great points here, Sultan.
I was extremely impressed with Thomas' defense on Hield when they were matched up and ISU wasn't screening all over the place. Thomas kept Hield from getting where he wanted to go, and not many can say that.
As for your overriding point -- that people can and do improve -- it's so true yet so many forget all the time that this happens. I mean, it was only a few years ago that Vander was being slammed relentlessly here as a kid who would never be any good. To them, there wasn't even a possibility that he would work and improve. Sad that some only see the negative possibilities.
Keefe
A better scoring Black Swan.
Quote from: Goose on January 19, 2016, 12:21:43 PM
Keefe
A better scoring Black Swan.
Goose
Roger that. I think my point is that McKay has the same passion and ferocity of Lackey. That is a great starting point!
What I loved about Al's teams is that they were in fact well-conceived units where the gears meshed beautifully.
Quote from: Goose on January 19, 2016, 12:21:43 PM
Keefe
A better scoring Black Swan.
McKay averaged 11.0 last year and is averaging 13.5 this year.
Lackey averaged 12.9 as a junior and 15.2 as a senior.
Quote from: keefe on January 19, 2016, 12:36:22 PM
Goose
Roger that. I think my point is that McKay has the same passion and ferocity of Lackey. That is a great starting point!
What I loved about Al's teams is that they were in fact well-conceived units where the gears meshed beautifully.
As Al was fond of saying, "My teams are the most disciplined in the universe."
Quote from: UticaBusBarn on January 19, 2016, 01:11:54 PM
As Al was fond of saying, "My teams are the most disciplined in the universe."
They were also "arrogant and obnoxious."
Quote from: UticaBusBarn on January 19, 2016, 01:11:54 PM
As Al was fond of saying, "My teams are the most disciplined in the universe."
The hallmark of Al's teams was their defense. No one was better.
We routinely prevented the other guys from inbounding the ball at least once a game. Think about that. Skill, precision, tenacity, focus, and discipline.
Al always said that he just rolled out the balls but that was just part of his schtick. He was a brilliant tactician and a master motivator.
Crean overplans to the point of inflexibility. When things go awry he blames the players for not executing to his brilliance.
Al reinforced hard lessons in practice then unleashed his tigers to execute. His T's were part of that plan. And he never ever blamed his players for failure. If I recall, Al took full responsibility for the NC State loss. That is what a man does.
Quote from: MU82 on January 18, 2016, 11:52:24 PM
It also helps Oklahoma and Iowa State to have 2-3 guys -- especially seniors and probable lottery picks Hield and Niang -- who can totally take over a game in crunch time.
McKay would have been a help two years ago, though we still would have had the worst starting backcourt in the nation. Hard to say he would have made last year's team matter much. And he wouldn't have been around this year.
As for Burton, seems to be a nice kid. Yet another guy some Scoopers anointed as a possible NBAer who ... well ... ain't. Black hole on offense; sieve on defense. Did I mention that he seems to be a nice kid?
Uhh Hield is the only probable lottery pick.
Niang would be a surprise to even be drafted.
GOOO Marquette
Lackey was different type of scorer. McKay has some moves, especially in transition, that are more geared towards today's game. For the record, I LOVED Bob Lackey as a Warrior.
Keefe
Al used to say we were wild off the court but most disciplined on it. I remember him taking jab at Russian's on his team's being more disciplined.