MUScoop

Should Henry Ellenson stop shooting 3s?


Source: Should Henry Ellenson stop shooting 3s? (http://painttouches.com/2016/01/06/should-henry-ellenson-stop-shooting-3s/)

Too early in the shot clock on most of those for me. The second, third, and fourth threes came with 21, 22, and 22 seconds on the clock. Also, don't like how on the fourth and fifth attempts, there is literally no one in blue even close to the paint. Okay...5 seconds on the shot clock, I guess you can forgive that, but while I don't want him to completely stop shooting from deep, I do feel he should shoot less often from deep. If there's more than 15 seconds on the shot clock and no one down low, there's no reason to let fly.

I don't want HE or any of our good shooters forbidden from shooting 3s.

But I want the name of your Web site to apply -- Paint Touches.

Let's try to get a better look -- in other words, something much closer to the rim -- early in the shot clock instead of jacking 3s the first time you touch the ball in the possession.

If a 3 is in the flow of the offense, of course I want Henry to take it.

I did get a little chuckle out of the reference to Henry doing a "heat check" after he had made one 3-pointer in a row. I guess for a guy who shoots 25% from downtown, one in a row is "heat check time"!

I referred to this in another thread about HE's 3's and found what Wojo said after the San Jose St game:

Ellenson had 20 points, with four coming off offensive rebounds and four coming at the foul line. He shot 8-for-15 from inside the three-point arc, but missed all three of his attempt from long range, making him 8-for-31 on three-pointers this season.

"We talk to him all the time about that," Wojciechowski said. "Henry's an inside-outside player and I want him to be able to follow his instincts. He didn't shoot it well from the perimeter tonight, but he does in practice and he will. I thought he played a pretty darn good game for us."


I'm really not sure what Wojo means when he states "We talk to him all the time about that" but then says " but he does in practice and he will"



FYI, when I clicked on the images to watch the shot it takes me to Youtube for the complete game video not the shot discussed

He can clearly make the shots and has. I have no problem with him shooting provided we have worked the offense to that point, he recognizes that we have at least some numbers down low in case he misses, and takes it in rhythm. Considering our team, I think everyone should be cognizant of that as we don't have any true lights out shooters.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 06, 2016, 04:24:39 PM
He can clearly make the shots and has. I have no problem with him shooting provided we have worked the offense to that point, he recognizes that we have at least some numbers down low in case he misses, and takes it in rhythm. Considering our team, I think everyone should be cognizant of that as we don't have any true lights out shooters.

He has forced a few, but most have been in the rhythm of the offense. They will start to fall.

While Henry has missed a lot of threes he generally has taken good threes. There was a play late in the game last night where they came out to cover Henry and the ball was passed into Fischer for a wide open dunk. It is nice to make threes, but it is the threat of threes that open up the floor. They will sag off of Henry, if he stops shooting threes.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 06, 2016, 03:32:27 PM
Too early in the shot clock on most of those for me. The second, third, and fourth threes came with 21, 22, and 22 seconds on the clock. Also, don't like how on the fourth and fifth attempts, there is literally no one in blue even close to the paint. Okay...5 seconds on the shot clock, I guess you can forgive that, but while I don't want him to completely stop shooting from deep, I do feel he should shoot less often from deep. If there's more than 15 seconds on the shot clock and no one down low, there's no reason to let fly.

As a team we shoot 3s too early in the shot clock. Take the first great shot, not the first good one. Our 2009 -10 team was really good at making an extra pass or two to turn a decent 3 point shot into a wide open one (or a lay up). We're not a good enough team (offensively or defensively) to be chucken' at the first opportunity.

Henry has nice form but right now is at best a so-so shooter. He's better off inside.

FWIW, I do think Henry was fouled on his last 3. The defender running at him definitely seemed to hit his leg, and it wasn't as though Henry stuck out his leg Reggie Miller-style. I have seen much more ticky-tack fouls called on 3-point attempts.

Quote from: MU82 on January 06, 2016, 04:39:27 PM
FWIW, I do think Henry was fouled on his last 3. The defender running at him definitely seemed to hit his leg, and it wasn't as though Henry stuck out his leg Reggie Miller-style. I have seen much more ticky-tack fouls called on 3-point attempts.

Henry gets fouled a lot with no call.

I seem to remember a season many moons ago when guys who went by the names Vander and Jamil kept chucking 3s throughout the year despite such poor conversion rates... and yet, when faced with seemingly insurmountable, yet doable, odds, do they did and the threes started falling like rodents defending in the paint.

So there may perhaps be benefit in letting Henry shoot after all... You never know when we might need him to make something doable.

Seems like he is falling back as he shoots the 3.  I'd like to see him go straight up.

All in all, I'd lie to see him shoot fewer 3s.

He can shoot any shot anytime he wants if I were the coach. He makes things happen and is a threat to score on every possession. Few guys have that skill.

Law of averages. They should start falling. The worst part of it, though, is that he is our best rebounder (not saying much). Taking a big away from the basket isn't going to help the misses unless our guards start crashing better.

A shoota's gotta shoot, ai na?

Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 06, 2016, 07:15:58 PM
A shoota's gotta shoot, ai na?

Right on, bro.  Pass the rock to Haanif and Sandy and let them launch.  Henry is automatic at the free throw and base lines.

I don't believe HE should continue to throw up 3s.
It's not his strength. It's not his game. I don't believe that % will greatly improve. He's shooting 25%--regardless of his picture perfect form.
His game at 15' and in is almost deadly and should continue to be utilized. He is letting defenses off the hook too often with those 3s.
When HE gets it that in the Inside/Out game he is on the inside not on the outside....there will be a lot of beneficiaries.

Quote from: GB Warrior on January 06, 2016, 06:56:51 PM
Law of averages. They should start falling. The worst part of it, though, is that he is our best rebounder (not saying much). Taking a big away from the basket isn't going to help the misses unless our guards start crashing better.

What law of averages says his three's should start falling? Has he proven to be a good three baller and now he is slumping? I personally don't think he is effective out there.

Quote from: 79Warrior on January 06, 2016, 11:22:47 PM
What law of averages says his three's should start falling? Has he proven to be a good three baller and now he is slumping? I personally don't think he is effective out there.

Pull out your basketball bible.... law of averages follows the transitive property chapter.

Well done article.

Henry Ellenson should continue to shoot the open three as evidenced by your photo examples.

The only comment one could offer is, despite perfect form, Ellenson shoots a "heavy" (think rock) ball, whether it be a three, or in close. As a result, if Henry does not "swish it", or bank it into the bucket, he rarely get the favourable bounce.

Chatham, by contrast shoots a "soft" ball and often gets the bounce into the hole.

However, the most recent Warrior who had a truly soft shot was Davonte Gardner. When Gardners shots would hit the rim, the ball acted like a nerf ball. It almost always got the favourable roll. One can see it clearly on Gardner's highlight reel from Japan.

In short, its like throwing a baseball as compared to shot-putting a baseball. One is a live ball. The other O is dead ball.

Henry shooting a 3 is better than nothing. I think he just gets extremely frustrated that he gets great position and can't get the ball down low. I don't know if it is the spacing or horrible guard play. He ends up coming to the 3 point line just to get the ball in his hands.

If Ellenson has his man pinned down low on a one-on-one matchup, we need to find a way to get him the ball.

Quote from: UticaBusBarn on January 07, 2016, 11:05:14 AM
Well done article.

Henry Ellenson should continue to shoot the open three as evidenced by your photo examples.

The only comment one could offer is, despite perfect form, Ellenson shoots a "heavy" (think rock) ball, whether it be a three, or in close. As a result, if Henry does not "swish it", or bank it into the bucket, he rarely get the favourable bounce.

Chatham, by contrast shoots a "soft" ball and often gets the bounce into the hole.

However, the most recent Warrior who had a truly soft shot was Davonte Gardner. When Gardners shots would hit the rim, the ball acted like a nerf ball. It almost always got the favourable roll. One can see it clearly on Gardner's highlight reel from Japan.

In short, its like throwing a baseball as compared to shot-putting a baseball. One is a live ball. The other O is dead ball.

From an offensive rebounding standpoint, having a soft shot down low is more beneficial than having a soft shot from downtown.  If you put up a soft shot in the post that misses, it's going to bounce off somewhere between 0-3 feet of the rim, and you should already have at least one person in position for a rebound (yourself).  From 3pt-land, it depends on where your teammates are positioned, but it's much less likely you're going to have anyone within said 0-4 feet for a rebound, in which case, if you miss the shot, you want that thing clanging off the rim as hard as possible.

In other words, long rebounds on missed threes rarely benefits the defense.

Henry doesn't need to stop shooting 3s, but the team would benefit if he took fewer 3s and better 3s (i.e. more in the flow of the offense). As long as his 3-point percentage remains Derrick-esque, he's going to get open looks from 3, especially early in possessions. There's no reason for a defender to play right up on an inside-outside player who is struggling to find his outside game.

Quote from: Benny B on January 06, 2016, 05:40:55 PM

I seem to remember a season many moons ago when guys who went by the names Vander and Jamil kept chucking 3s throughout the year despite such poor conversion rates... and yet, when faced with seemingly insurmountable, yet doable, odds, do they did and the threes started falling like rodents defending in the paint.

So there may perhaps be benefit in letting Henry shoot after all... You never know when we might need him to make something doable.

lol

Agree with your point though - while some of HE's threes might not have been the best choices, we want him to have the green light.

Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 07, 2016, 12:43:44 PM
lol

Agree with your point though - while some of HE's threes might not have been the best choices, we want him to have the green light.

Why?

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 07, 2016, 12:44:24 PM
Why?

Because he is fully capable of hitting them...and we will likely need him to hit some to go somewhere this season.  If defenses need to focus on him further from the basket, we become a very difficult team to defend.

Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 07, 2016, 01:03:33 PM
Because he is fully capable of hitting them...and we will likely need him to hit some to go somewhere this season.  If defenses need to focus on him further from the basket, we become a very difficult team to defend.

Extending to the 3-point line is great, if a player can hit from there. Henry has hit 5 of his last 24 shots from 3 and, so far this season, he's proven to be fully capable of hitting about 1 out of every 4. I'm not saying he shouldn't shoot 3s, but he needs to take them in the flow of the game and not just because he's sort of open and has the green light.

He's 6'10" and typically guarded by smaller players but he's shooting just 42% from the floor. He needs to take better shots. That's what will make this team very difficult to defend. What's wrong with him simply extending the D to about 15-18 feet? He's been money from the FT line extended this season.

No. Let it fly!

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 07, 2016, 01:27:07 PM
Extending to the 3-point line is great, if a player can hit from there. Henry has hit 5 of his last 24 shots from 3 and, so far this season, he's proven to be fully capable of hitting about 1 out of every 4. I'm not saying he shouldn't shoot 3s, but he needs to take them in the flow of the game and not just because he's sort of open and has the green light.

He's 6'10" and typically guarded by smaller players but he's shooting just 42% from the floor. He needs to take better shots. That's what will make this team very difficult to defend. What's wrong with him simply extending the D to about 15-18 feet? He's been money from the FT line extended this season.

I bet at the end of the year he is shooting above 30% from 3. He would need to hit 45% or better from mid range to make it a better shot. Considering the extra spacing I think he is better off extending to three range where he has more room.

Quote from: martyconlonontherun on January 07, 2016, 02:09:04 PM
I bet at the end of the year he is shooting above 30% from 3. He would need to hit 45% or better from mid range to make it a better shot. Considering the extra spacing I think he is better off extending to three range where he has more room.

Thru the Wisco game (10 games), he was shooting 71% from mid-range/non-baseline.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CWyPsGaUkAA5EVI.png)

I couldn't find a shot chart beyond that.

Only open threes...a bigger problem is him hanging out at the three line....more often than not he needs to be near the rim...not as a back-to-the-basket post player...but as a scorer and rebounder...play the power forward position more than the guard.

if they leave him at the three line...sure, shoot.

by the way....love the graphic.  mid-sized red dot at the top of the arc is interesting.

Quote from: jsheim on January 07, 2016, 02:23:15 PM
by the way....love the graphic.  mid-sized red dot at the top of the arc is interesting.

Good point. Perhaps he needs to fill the "Lazar role" of FT line jumpers and 3s as the trailer  ;)

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 07, 2016, 02:28:26 PM
Good point. Perhaps he needs to fill the "Lazar role" of FT line jumpers and 3s as the trailer  ;)

I know this was said in jest, but there's actually probably some validity to him being able to get on track with some rhythm 3 pointers. He's so good with the ball in his hands, though, that our chances are better of him going coast to coast than trailing the play.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 07, 2016, 01:27:07 PM
Extending to the 3-point line is great, if a player can hit from there. Henry has hit 5 of his last 24 shots from 3 and, so far this season, he's proven to be fully capable of hitting about 1 out of every 4. I'm not saying he shouldn't shoot 3s, but he needs to take them in the flow of the game and not just because he's sort of open and has the green light.

He's 6'10" and typically guarded by smaller players but he's shooting just 42% from the floor. He needs to take better shots. That's what will make this team very difficult to defend. What's wrong with him simply extending the D to about 15-18 feet? He's been money from the FT line extended this season.

In the end, I think we're saying pretty much the same thing...but it comes out sounding different because we have a different interpretation of what the "green light" means.

When I say a guy should have the "green light," I mean he should be able to shoot within the flow of the game...not just whenever he is open.

He's pretty soft and has some trouble on the block.  Surprised he hasn't excelled more on the pick and roll game.  He's gonna eventually need the three if he wants to be good in college let alone NBA.  I'd let him keep shooting but say if you miss first three or four work the block more that game.

I prefer to see him work in close. He has nice moves and his percentage is much higher.

If it is late in the shot clock and he is wide open then shoot the three.

When this team finds its offense, it will be potent. Henry will be a killer when he finds his space as seen in the chart. 

Quote from: GB Warrior on January 07, 2016, 03:26:31 PM
I know this was said in jest, but there's actually probably some validity to him being able to get on track with some rhythm 3 pointers. He's so good with the ball in his hands, though, that our chances are better of him going coast to coast than trailing the play.

Despite the smiley, my comment wasn't actually made in jest. If teams go zone against MU, Henry could bust it by knocking down FT line jumpers, a la Lazar.

Also, Henry gets a lot of rebounds so I wouldn't mind seeing him kick it to a guard, gather himself for a second and then trail the play for a potential open look from 3*. If that becomes part of the offense, defenses would need to bring a defender out to meet him near the top of the key, which would open things up for Luke down low or for a quick drive. How many times have we actually seen HE take it coast to coast?


* - I had previously stated that I don't like him taking 3s early in the shot clock, but this would be the exception.

    YES

I meant NO...NO

The best 3pt shooters are usually catch and shoot guys with good elevation on the shot and a high finish. Henry shoots a flat shot. I want to see him spotted at the circle and receiving a 2nd pass from a teammate.