I know from professional sports they say that stars or very good players often do not make good coaches. This is the especially the case in baseball where it is often journeymen players that make the best managers.
The idea here is star/good players often have a hard time explaining/teaching. I reminded of a quote Jordan said years ago. Jackson was drawing up a play and Jordan cut him off and said "throw me the ball and get the F out of the way." This kind of mentality does not make for a good coach, especially at the college level.
In pro basketball we have seen Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Keven McHale not make good coaches? Of course Doc Rivers and Steve Kerr are (I guess it depends on what is a "good" player).
How about at the college level? Does the same apply?
Wojo was a first team AA and defensive player of the year. Are their any other college coaches that were that good when they played? The only name that comes to mind if Football Coach Steve Spurrier, a former Heisman winner.
Do you agree that players that were as good as Wojo generally do not make good coaches. Of course, Wojo is the exception that proves the rule!
Finally, in baseball it is often catchers that are the best mangers. Makes sense if you understand the game. Given this idea, you agree that, all things being equal, Point Guards make the best coaches?
Thoughts/Ideas?
PS on the other end their is a small handful of college basketball coaches that never played college basketball. Two of them are Buzz and Crean!
Quote from: Heisenberg on January 06, 2016, 07:53:57 AM
I know from professional sports they say that stars or very good players often do not make good coaches. This is the especially the case in baseball where it is often journeymen players that make the best managers.
The idea here is star/good players often have a hard time explaining/teaching. I reminded of a quote Jordan said years ago. Jackson was drawing up a play and Jordan cut him off and said "throw me the ball and get the F out of the way." This kind of mentality does not make for a good coach, especially at the college level.
In pro basketball we have seen Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Keven McHale not make good coaches?
Larry Bird was an NBA coach for three seasons. He had a .714 winning percentage, lost in the conference finals twice and in the NBA finals once. He just didn't want to do it any longer.
Steve Alford had a little success. So did Harbaugh at Michigan. Krystowiak. Ol' Roy. Billy Donovan. Steve Kerr. But yes, to your larger point, it is rare for a legendary player to become a legendary coach.
Quote from: tower912 on January 06, 2016, 08:00:06 AM
Steve Alford had a little success. So did Harbaugh at Michigan. Krystowiak. Ol' Roy. Billy Donovan. Steve Kerr. But yes, to your larger point, it is rare for a legendary player to become a legendary coach.
It is rare for any coach to become legendary.
Quote from: tower912 on January 06, 2016, 08:00:06 AM
Steve Alford had a little success. So did Harbaugh at Michigan. Krystowiak. Ol' Roy. Billy Donovan. Steve Kerr. But yes, to your larger point, it is rare for a legendary player to become a legendary coach.
Legendary players usually have made so much money that they don't need to coach. I do think there is something to the less talented guy who had to work hard to understand how he could be productive/gain playing time becoming a successful coach, but I think by and large great athletes don't become successful coaches because they don't need to. Most coaches have to work their way up to a big head coaching/managing job, and that is something a wealthy, famous athlete is less likely to be willing to do.
There are exceptions, but I've noted this often in soccer. I feel this is why Jurgen Klinsmann isn't a good coach. Great players often expect others to be able to mimic their ability. It's difficult to accept that the guys playing for you may simply not be as good as you were and thus aren't capable of doing what you want them to do.
Lesser players I do feel are better able to understand struggles and more quickly adapt to the abilities of different levels of players. There are always exceptions. As noted, Larry Bird was a great player and coach. But in general, I would agree that the average to below average players are probably better coaches.
It reminds me of the old adage, "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." In this case, not being able to perform at that level can actually be an advantage.
Quote from: Heisenberg on January 06, 2016, 07:53:57 AM
I know from professional sports they say that stars or very good players often do not make good coaches. This is the especially the case in baseball where it is often journeymen players that make the best managers.
The idea here is star/good players often have a hard time explaining/teaching. I reminded of a quote Jordan said years ago. Jackson was drawing up a play and Jordan cut him off and said "throw me the ball and get the F out of the way." This kind of mentality does not make for a good coach, especially at the college level.
In pro basketball we have seen Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Keven McHale not make good coaches? Of course Doc Rivers and Steve Kerr are (I guess it depends on what is a "good" player).
How about at the college level? Does the same apply?
Wojo was a first team AA and defensive player of the year. Are their any other college coaches that were that good when they played? The only name that comes to mind if Football Coach Steve Spurrier, a former Heisman winner.
Do you agree that players that were as good as Wojo generally do not make good coaches. Of course, Wojo is the exception that proves the rule!
Finally, in baseball it is often catchers that are the best mangers. Makes sense if you understand the game. Given this idea, you agree that, all things being equal, Point Guards make the best coaches?
Thoughts/Ideas?
PS on the other end their is a small handful of college basketball coaches that never played college basketball. Two of them are Buzz and Crean!
Joe Torre and Don Mattingly were great players and have not done badly as Managers.
Tons of current coaches...with varying degrees of success...some still very early in careers...who had college careers that run a wide range of success but certainly many could be considered comparable to Wojo:
Bill Self
Danny Manning
Kevin Ollie
Steve Alford
Fred Hoiberg
Fran McCaffery
Sydney Johnson
Tony Bennett
Cuonzo Martin
Craig Neal
Greg McDermott
Mark Gottfried
Sean Miller
Tommy Amaker
Reggie Theus
Bobby Hurley
Dan Majerle
Billy Donovan
Johnny Dawkins
Travis Ford
I think leadership skills and people competence are more important that how good they were or were not in college...and who mentored them either while playing or serving as assistant coaches.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 06, 2016, 08:01:45 AM
It is rare for any coach to become legendary.
Stew did it rather easily, ai na?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 06, 2016, 08:27:03 AM
Stew did it rather easily, ai na?
God only made one Stew Morrill.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 06, 2016, 08:06:47 AM
There are exceptions, but I've noted this often in soccer. I feel this is why Jurgen Klinsmann isn't a good coach. Great players often expect others to be able to mimic their ability. It's difficult to accept that the guys playing for you may simply not be as good as you were and thus aren't capable of doing what you want them to do.
Lesser players I do feel are better able to understand struggles and more quickly adapt to the abilities of different levels of players. There are always exceptions. As noted, Larry Bird was a great player and coach. But in general, I would agree that the average to below average players are probably better coaches.
It reminds me of the old adage, "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." In this case, not being able to perform at that level can actually be an advantage.
Quote from: CTWarrior on January 06, 2016, 08:06:47 AM
Legendary players usually have made so much money that they don't need to coach. I do think there is something to the less talented guy who had to work hard to understand how he could be productive/gain playing time becoming a successful coach, but I think by and large great athletes don't become successful coaches because they don't need to. Most coaches have to work their way up to a big head coaching/managing job, and that is something a wealthy, famous athlete is less likely to be willing to do.
Next game is Chris Mullins. A legendary player than did not work his way up. He was handed the keys to the Johnnies because of his reputation.
Watching him will prove to be a good case study.
I think Wojo is exactly the type of player that succeeds in coaching. I don't think he even qualifies as journeyman since he never played in the NBA. He had to work his tail off his whole career to get where he got. He wasn't a physically gifted player that made it look easy, and then coaches by saying "its so easy, why can't you do it?"
On the flip side, he seems like a player that was hyper-motivated and wanted to succeed badly, and he may struggle motivating players that don't want it as bad as he did.
Personally, when I talk about great players not being able to make the transition to coaching, I'm thinking of the guys who are so good that they seemingly have no limits as players. Guys like MJ, Magic, Kobe, those are the ones I'm thinking of. Guys like Hoiberg, Manning, even Majerle, they were great in college and solid in the NBA (even some All-Star appearances there) but still had a ceiling. I think getting to that point where you are humbled really helps.
Bird is an exception, no doubt. But it's rare that you see someone who's a near-unstoppable, first-ballot Hall of Famer as a player able to have the same or even similar impact as a coach.
Quote from: Heisenberg on January 06, 2016, 07:53:57 AM
Wojo was a first team AA and defensive player of the year. Are their any other college coaches that were that good when they played? The only name that comes to mind if Football Coach Steve Spurrier, a former Heisman winner.
Wojo was DPOY, but he was only an honorable mention AA. He wasn't on any 1st through 3rd teams and was honorable mention with 35 other guys. Great player and great career, but not a legendary player by any stretch.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 06, 2016, 09:44:13 AM
Bird is an exception, no doubt. But it's rare that you see someone who's a near-unstoppable, first-ballot Hall of Famer as a player able to have the same or even similar impact as a coach.
I agree with Brew, thinking of other examples like Bill Russell, great player but meh coach or even Dean Smith, I never heard that he was a great player at all but a legend as a coach.
Two guys not yet mentioned who were great college players and OK coaches:
John Wooden, Larry Brown.
Bobby Knight was a very good college player.
You know who else was a great college player right from Heisy's OP? Phil Jackson. Look it up. Also averaged 7 points/game during a 12-year NBA career.
Quote from: MU82 on January 06, 2016, 04:01:32 PM
Two guys not yet mentioned who were great college players and OK coaches:
John Wooden, Larry Brown.
Bobby Knight was a very good college player.
You know who else was a great college player right from Heisy's OP? Phil Jackson. Look it up. Also averaged 7 points/game during a 12-year NBA career.
Is 7 points a game in an NBA career = a"great college player?"
I think Brew said it best. Great players can get frustrated because their teams "don't do it like I did." Or, "I teach them how to beat their man and hit a ridiculous shot, like I did over and over and they don't do it right. What's wrong with them!!"
That is what I was asking about.
QuoteHe played three years of basketball at St. John's Prep, Brooklyn, New York (graduated 1947), and went on to star at St. John's University (1947–1951), where he played for four years and captained the 1951 team that posted a 26–5 mark and finished third in the NIT.
NBA career
After college, He played in the NBA, first with the New York Knicks (1951–53) and then with the Baltimore Bullets (1954). While with the Knicks, he once famously pleaded with his coach for playing time, with this guarantee: "I can stop Cousy." Inserted into the lineup, he proceeded to foul him on his next six trips down the court.
He won a national championship as a coach and was later inducted into the Basketball Hall of Fame.
I think we find out something more about this guy on Saturday.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 06, 2016, 08:01:45 AM
It is rare for any coach to become legendary.
Alfred McGuire was a great college player for St John's, a solid pro with the Knicks, and a legendary coach at Marquette.