MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: 82fanatic on December 19, 2015, 10:54:10 PM
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http://www.jsonline.com/sports/badgers/who-are-the-top-10-coaches-in-wisconsin-history-b99636323z1-363051731.html?ipad=y
Gary D'Amato rates Ryan 5th best coach ever in Wisconsin. Al is #2. Badger fans about to explode!
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How does Bob Johnson not make the list? And ahead of Bo for that matter!!
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I would have rated Dick Bennett much higher.
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How does Bob Johnson not make the list? And ahead of Bo for that matter!!
Minor sport.
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Agree totally about Badger Bob. Absolutely should have been top 10 -- some guy from the Milwaukee Freakin' Wave was -- and arguably top 5. And not even on the "also considered" list that includes a guy from the Admirals? I know it's a just-for-fun list done to provoke just these kinds of conversations, and perhaps it was just a complete oversight, but to have some guy from the Wave and not Badger Bob is just plain silly.
No Crean on even the also-considered? I guess Final Fours aren't what they used to be.
As for Al being second and Bo fifth, sounds about right to me. Al's teams won just as consistently as Bo's did, and Al's teams won the final game of their season twice.
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How does Bob Johnson not make the list? And ahead of Bo for that matter!!
Agree big time.
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With the notable exception of Badger Bob, this list seems pretty appropriate to me. I especially have no disagreement with the top 3 in order. After that I think there can be some debate.
I'll ask this question. Clearly Vince is a top 10 all-time football coach. Is Al on the top 10 all-time college basketball coach? I think he might be close. Wooden, Coach K, Knight........
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With the notable exception of Badger Bob, this list seems pretty appropriate to me. I especially have no disagreement with the top 3 in order. After that I think there can be some debate.
I'll ask this question. Clearly Vince is a top 10 all-time football coach. Is Al on the top 10 all-time college basketball coach? I think he might be close. Wooden, Coach K, Knight........
Well, if you exclude the guy who coached 252 games at West Texas A&M in an eleven-year career that ended several years before Germany invaded Poland, then Al would be #10 on the Wpct list.
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/leaders/win-loss-pct-coach-career.html
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With the notable exception of Badger Bob, this list seems pretty appropriate to me. I especially have no disagreement with the top 3 in order. After that I think there can be some debate.
I'll ask this question. Clearly Vince is a top 10 all-time football coach. Is Al on the top 10 all-time college basketball coach? I think he might be close. Wooden, Coach K, Knight........
Al absolutely in the top 5 all time. Wooden, Coach K, Dean Smith, Knight, Al.
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Al absolutely in the top 5 all time. Wooden, Coach K, Dean Smith, Knight, Al.
That might be a little blue/gold beer goggles talking. Rupp, Calhoun, Crum, Olson, Izzo......
But I think top 10 is certainly in the conversation.
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That might be a little blue/gold beer goggles talking. Rupp, Calhoun, Crum, Olson, Izzo......
But I think top 10 is certainly in the conversation.
Agreed.
Hard to put a guy with one title ahead of a guy with three (Calhoun), and Crum won two. And both had great success beyond the tournament.
Doesn't diminish Al. Lots of great ones.
I can't possibly consider a racist bastard like Rupp, though.
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Agreed.
Hard to put a guy with one title ahead of a guy with three (Calhoun), and Crum won two. And both had great success beyond the tournament.
Doesn't diminish Al. Lots of great ones.
I can't possibly consider a racist bastard like Rupp, though.
I think that the conversation needs to include Al's impact on the game in ways beyond his coaching. Al gave luster, texture, and context to the game in ways that Crum and Calhoun never did.
Arthur Schlesinger observed that Robert Kennedy and Al McGuire were the only two white men who could walk through Harlem in the late '60's and be welcomed as a friend. Both were champions of social justice and did more for civil rights than most others.
Pitino's legacy will always include that sordid mess at Porcini while Calhoun's name will be forever linked with recruiting scandals and disposable players who had no academic achievement to show for their time in Storrs.
If the barometer is simply how many wins then Crum and Calhoun are the more distinguished. But if one is to look at the quality of the man's soul and his impact on society as a whole then Al McGuire stands apart as one of the very best.
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I think that the conversation needs to include Al's impact on the game in ways beyond his coaching. Al gave luster, texture, and context to the game in ways that Crum and Calhoun never did.
Arthur Schlesinger observed that Robert Kennedy and Al McGuire were the only two white men who could walk through Harlem in the late '60's and be welcomed as a friend. Both were champions of social justice and did more for civil rights than most others.
Pitino's legacy will always include that sordid mess at Porcini while Calhoun's name will be forever linked with recruiting scandals and disposable players who had no academic achievement to show for their time in Storrs.
If the barometer is simply how many wins then Crum and Calhoun are the more distinguished. But if one is to look at the quality of the man's soul and his impact on society as a whole then Al McGuire stands apart as one of the very best.
Don't get me wrong. I have more respect for Al than anyone. Total class act.
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That might be a little blue/gold beer goggles talking. Rupp, Calhoun, Crum, Olson, Izzo......
But I think top 10 is certainly in the conversation.
I opt for higher,remember Al stepped out while still in his prime. Just the same way Jimmy Brown, Sandy Koufax, Barry Sanders, Rocky Marciano did.
When I look in the Dictionary under the Definition Iconic , there is a picture of Al
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I guess I don't understand the positive points for retiring while in his prime. There is nothing wrong with that, but there is nothing superior about it either.
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I think that the conversation needs to include Al's impact on the game in ways beyond his coaching. Al gave luster, texture, and context to the game in ways that Crum and Calhoun never did.
Arthur Schlesinger observed that Robert Kennedy and Al McGuire were the only two white men who could walk through Harlem in the late '60's and be welcomed as a friend. Both were champions of social justice and did more for civil rights than most others.
Pitino's legacy will always include that sordid mess at Porcini while Calhoun's name will be forever linked with recruiting scandals and disposable players who had no academic achievement to show for their time in Storrs.
If the barometer is simply how many wins then Crum and Calhoun are the more distinguished. But if one is to look at the quality of the man's soul and his impact on society as a whole then Al McGuire stands apart as one of the very best.
These are great points. And yet if a UConn fan argued for Calhoun, I wouldn't blame him/her in the least.
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These are great points. And yet if a UConn fan argued for Calhoun, I wouldn't blame him/her in the least.
I would agree that Calhoun won a lot of games. And he won a lot of big games.
But how did he do it? The man was habitually immersed in scandal. He broke rules to gain competitive advantage. In my book that taints his accomplishments profoundly.
And one could assert that he used those kids without regard for their future. That is also one of the prime arguments against Bo Ryan. But then, Ryan's legacy is tarnished in ways more disgraceful than even Bruce Pearl's.
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I guess I don't understand the positive points for retiring while in his prime. There is nothing wrong with that, but there is nothing superior about it either.
I understand both sides. The advantage to retiring in your prime is that people will always remember you at your best. Barry Sanders, Jim Brown, they went out when they were still dominant. The only way anyone ever remembers them will be as dominant players. Same goes for Al. He retired at the peak, no one can ever say he lost touch with the game.
When you have guys that clearly are past it, Emmitt Smith with the Cardinals, Bobby Knight in his later days, it may not take anything away from what they accomplished in their career, but it definitely can change how they are remembered. You remember the bad, even if it's a small percentage, with the good. When you go out on top, there really is no bad to remember.
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Keefe is 100% correct on evaluating Al's impact on the sport and society. Aside from what Keefe noted Al had other influence on the court that was ahead of the times. One could argue playing the Russians was the first Midnight Madness, and possibly the greatest Midnight Madness. His ability to make one guy a year a star, to crazy uniforms and letting his players be free spirits was ahead of the time. One of a kind and definitely a top five person of influence in NCAA history. Great coach, but he was much more than that.
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Bob Knight coaching Texas Tech with local advertising on his bowling shirt, Al would have never sunk to that
level for a job or money or to stay in the limelight. Al was a class act and I'm sure it was hard to walk away!
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If we're talking coaching as a whole, i.e. recruiting, contributions to the game, on-court success, ambassador for the school/game, overall reputation, etc., then Al is definitely in the top 10 -- keep in mind, the NIT in 1970 was every bit the accomplishment (and probably more) than the NCAA championship that year. You have to have Dean and Rupp in there, simply on merit.
Izzo is in the mix, too, and I think history will look back at Calhoun more favorably than one would expect... I'd expect him to be there, too. Pitino - despite his shortcummings - has to be in the conversation. Even though Lute only has one title, I think he deserves consideration for what he did for AZ's program. The same arguments for Calhoun and Lute can also be made for Boeheim, plus, it's difficult to overlook the impact of his utilization of the 2-3 has had on the game.
(In no particular order)
Locks: Knight, K, Wooden, Al, Dean, Rupp, Crum
In the Hunt: Izzo, Pitino, Lute, Roy, Calhoun, Boeheim
EDIT: Had Crum in the wrong category.
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Drew Olsen and Homer yelling at each other over if Bo deserves to be in consideration for Al's level
http://espn.go.com/espnradio/playPopup?id=14381482
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Pitino - despite his shortcummings
Pitino had his 15 seconds of fame...
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I guess I don't understand the positive points for retiring while in his prime. There is nothing wrong with that, but there is nothing superior about it either.
Obviously there is. Popular culture going back to antiquity has always celebrated those who leave at the top. Any read of the classics proves this - Theseus, Odysseus, Atalanta, and Perseus...
There is a reason James Dean remains an icon to this day.
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I understand both sides. The advantage to retiring in your prime is that people will always remember you at your best. Barry Sanders, Jim Brown, they went out when they were still dominant. The only way anyone ever remembers them will be as dominant players. Same goes for Al. He retired at the peak, no one can ever say he lost touch with the game.
When you have guys that clearly are past it, Emmitt Smith with the Cardinals, Bobby Knight in his later days, it may not take anything away from what they accomplished in their career, but it definitely can change how they are remembered. You remember the bad, even if it's a small percentage, with the good. When you go out on top, there really is no bad to remember.
Obviously there is. Popular culture going back to antiquity has always celebrated those who leave at the top. Any read of the classics proves this - Theseus, Odysseus, Atalanta, and Perseus...
There is a reason James Dean remains an icon to this day.
Well sure it is satisfying for *us* and our overly romanticized view of sports and its role in society, but objectively it shouldn't matter at all.
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I know that playing 2 years for the Wizards absolutely killed Jordan's legacy.
Most people think of him as no better than the 20th best basketball player ever, and who will buy anything emblazoned with his logo?
Nobody!
Same with Babe Ruth. Finished with the Boston Braves and everybody now says he was never any good.
Willie Mays, too. And Joe Montana. And Johnny U. And Bobby Orr. And Wayne Gretzky.
If only they had gone out on top, they'd still have legacies to speak of!
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Well sure it is satisfying for *us* and our overly romanticized view of sports and its role in society, but objectively it shouldn't matter at all.
By that line of reasoning there is then no intrinsic value to Bach's Air on a G String or the works of William Blake.
We celebrate nobility because it invests significance in this curious thing we call life. It is always better to embrace what is possible than what is impossible.
https://www.youtube.com/v/HD3u5YWdWLw
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By that line of reasoning there is then no intrinsic value to Bach's Air on a G String or the works of William Blake.
We celebrate nobility because it invests significance in this curious thing we call life. It is always better to embrace what is possible than what is impossible.
There is nothing noble about retiring on top.
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That might be a little blue/gold beer goggles talking. Rupp, Calhoun, Crum, Olson, Izzo......
But I think top 10 is certainly in the conversation.
Some would exclude bigots from consideration. How ignorant of history must African-American basketball players be to want to play in Rupp Arena? And to play for the state university of the state that was the last state to ratify the 13th amendment to the constitution in 1973?
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There is nothing noble about retiring on top.
Then I guess that Homer, Euripides, Sophocles, and Herodotus got it wrong.
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Bob Knight coaching Texas Tech with local advertising on his bowling shirt, Al would have never sunk to that
level for a job or money or to stay in the limelight. Al was a class act and I'm sure it was hard to walk away!
Two more points of comparison between Knight and Al. Al never forced a university to can him. Both were great TV game commentators. Al was the more entertaining, while Knight was better, IMO at explaining what was happening on the court.
Every time I watched Dick Vitale I could only see a guy aping Al's genuine enthusiasm.
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By that line of reasoning there is then no intrinsic value to Bach's Air on a G String or the works of William Blake.
We celebrate nobility because it invests significance in this curious thing we call life. It is always better to embrace what is possible than what is impossible.
https://www.youtube.com/v/HD3u5YWdWLw
I always thought of Bach as staid, but I got to like a guy playing anything on a G-string.
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Then I guess that Homer, Euripides, Sophocles, and Herodotus got it wrong.
You are mixing up two things.
I understand the desire to add a bit of romanticism to sports and to "feel good" about those who walk away on top. However when you are objectively judging one's performance versus another's, those who retire on top shouldn't really get "extra points" simply because they did so.
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I know that playing 2 years for the Wizards absolutely killed Jordan's legacy.
Most people think of him as no better than the 20th best basketball player ever, and who will buy anything emblazoned with his logo?
Nobody!
Same with Babe Ruth. Finished with the Boston Braves and everybody now says he was never any good.
Willie Mays, too. And Joe Montana. And Johnny U. And Bobby Orr. And Wayne Gretzky.
If only they had gone out on top, they'd still have legacies to speak of!
Jordan on the Wizards, Gretzky on the Blues, Rice on Seattle, etc definitely tarnished those players' legacies...for about 2-3 seconds. In the long-term, however, no one cares. If a player or coach wants to stick around "past his prime" and is given the opportunity to do so, more power to him. I'd probably do the same.
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Some would exclude bigots from consideration. How ignorant of history must African-American basketball players be to want to play in Rupp Arena? And to play for the state university of the state that was the last state to ratify the 13th amendment to the constitution in 1973?
Yeah... but you have to realize it was the 1950s when Rupp was most relevant, and everyone was a bigot back then; heck, most of them that are still alive probably still think they're watching their slaves take on the slaves from another institution. Even Ed O'Bannon agrees, apparently.
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Drew Olsen and Homer yelling at each other over if Bo deserves to be in consideration for Al's level
http://espn.go.com/espnradio/playPopup?id=14381482
You could basically turn this off when Olsen said that Kentucky last year was the best college team of all time and Bo beat them while Al couldn't beat UCLA. And then scoffing at Al's S16s vs Bo's. Just foolish but completely representative of Wisconsin media.
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You could basically turn this off when Olsen said that Kentucky last year was the best college team of all time and Bo beat them while Al couldn't beat UCLA. And then scoffing at Al's S16s vs Bo's. Just foolish but completely representative of Wisconsin media.
Homer should have played the "Tara Card"
(http://orig11.deviantart.net/7ac8/f/2012/057/b/3/tarot__the_star_by_smolin-d4r4nu1.jpg)
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Hard to beat UCLA when they did not play them. For much of Al's run UCLA and MU never met in NCAA and only played in Milwaukee in the 60's if memory serves me. Also, UW beat UK one time and MU was second best winning % for a decade, big difference.
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Really the only argument one could make for Bo over Al is that Bo coached in the state of Wisconsin for nearly 3x as long as Al and had great success at the DIII level. I mean, it's not a particularly strong argument but it's about the only pro-Bo argument that could be made in that debate.
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There is nothing noble about retiring on top.
Rumor is Bo went out on top, ai na?
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I think that the conversation needs to include Al's impact on the game in ways beyond his coaching. Al gave luster, texture, and context to the game in ways that Crum and Calhoun never did.
Arthur Schlesinger observed that Robert Kennedy and Al McGuire were the only two white men who could walk through Harlem in the late '60's and be welcomed as a friend. Both were champions of social justice and did more for civil rights than most others.
Pitino's legacy will always include that sordid mess at Porcini while Calhoun's name will be forever linked with recruiting scandals and disposable players who had no academic achievement to show for their time in Storrs.
If the barometer is simply how many wins then Crum and Calhoun are the more distinguished. But if one is to look at the quality of the man's soul and his impact on society as a whole then Al McGuire stands apart as one of the very best.
Only Al would rather see food on Jim Chones' table and take a pass on a probable National Championship.