These were made during Butch's recruitment when he narrowed it to Madison UNC and Marquette. Butch has underperformed as a fifth year McDonald's All American. I think Crean and his staff would have developed him more--accordingly Hartjes steered him wrong. Hartjes was such a hack.
Online hoops.com 7/22/02
Q: Do you hold any influence over Brian's decision?
A: We haven't really discussed anything like that yet. I will be happy wherever he chooses. I'd like to see him play, so Wisconsin would be great. Then again, having multiple chances at a Final Four at schools like Arizona, Kansas, and North Carolina, would be great.
Wisconsin State Journal 8/22/02:
"(Ryan and UW) have worked very hard. For the last year and a half they've said that Brian is their No. 1 target, the guy they want, and they've never wavered from that," Appleton West coach Greg Hartjes said. "They've been very committed to getting Brian to become a Badger."
Even Marquette coach Tom Crean has been more patient than the UW staff. But that's because the Golden Eagles have nothing to lose with their recruitment of Butch. Hartjes said Crean knows his program is the lowest of the five schools on Butch's list.
"They were almost ready to concede that they weren't going to be the fifth school and gain a visit. And then, right at the end, Tom Crean did some smooth talking with Brian and got a visit out of it," Hartjes said.
"They are hoping they have a chance," the Appleton West coach added. "They are hoping to spark something. They are hoping that when he comes down for that visit, that he says this is the greatest place, this is where I want to be. But they also understand they are up against some big-time programs."
Hartjes seems like like a Narcissistic kind of guy and complete piece of crap. By the way what ever happened to this coach/advisor? I would love to know.
Butch's coach was, and is, a douchebag. He and Trevon Hughes' coach at St. John's are prime examples of how difficult the pressure becomes for kids reared in the state to turn their backs on the Red.
I understand people like to get on Crean for not landing so many local guys but when you have a low producing state like Wisconsin and then factor in the strong bias at all levels (family, friends, high school coaches, etc.) it's amazing Crean's even been able land all the talent he has.
As an aside, I'd take the trio of Diener, Novak, and Matthews over any 3 Wisconsin born players that Ryan has landed.
Well Marquette is clearly better them UW now, so Butch's advisor was clearly giving him wrong advise. :-[
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have him, but I think Butch is a tough fit for us. You're not going to play for us unless you can really run up and down the court, and I don't think Butch quite fits that mold. Look at the game last night. Is there any doubt on which team Butch belonged? Crean likes talented quick better than talented big if that is the choice. So do I.
Has Brian stopped his waving to the crowd to get them going yet? What a complete tool. By the way, congrats to BBFran, who said before the game that UW would win because Hughes is the best point guard in the state. Uh. Fran, he's about third.
I grew up in Appleton, and his coach is no different than most of the people that live there. UW is the school that everyone clings to and anyone who didn't go to college picks up the badgers as their default team. There is no way that Butch would have ended up anywhere but UW, because his parents, his coach, his teamates, and the city of Appleton are obsessed with the badgers. We had as much of a chance as Arizona and UNC, which was no chance at all.
I think Butch did exactly what I thought he would do. I dont think he would have been a better player in the MU system. We require some athleticism. He would have had a harder time in the BE. I also believe John Polonowski would have been a better player at Wisconsin - they tend to grow those kids.
Brian Butch would have been nice to have ... but he's not the make-or-break player some thought he would/could be. He's decent player, nothing more. He certainly hasn't come close to living up to his hype. The so-called best player out of Wisconsin since Joe Wolf hasn't matched the achievements of "lesser" Wisconsinites like Travis Diener, Steve Novak, Devin Harris, etc.
Here's a pretty telling fact: With two minutes to play in a tight contest against his team's in-state rivals, Brian Butch was on the bench.
Quote from: WadeDienerNovak on December 09, 2007, 10:57:16 PM
I grew up in Appleton, and his coach is no different than most of the people that live there. UW is the school that everyone clings to and anyone who didn't go to college picks up the badgers as their default team. There is no way that Butch would have ended up anywhere but UW, because his parents, his coach, his teamates, and the city of Appleton are obsessed with the badgers. We had as much of a chance as Arizona and UNC, which was no chance at all.
I grew up near Appleton (Menasha) and went to HS at the same school as the new walk-on, Robert Frozena. All I can say to that is "ditto." Yes: everyone's default faux-aluma matter is UW ... it's so easy to say that but to witness it day in and day out living up there almost takes your breath away. Sometimes, when I'm back home, I tell people I "go to college in Milwaukee" because I don't want to get the glare from people that most MU types reserve for preppy ND alums (clearly, though, not that they are the same, but UW alums/students are more than happy to feed fake stereotypes).
Yeah, I'm not going back up nort' anytime soon.
Quote from: Coobeys Oil Depot on December 09, 2007, 01:32:42 PM
As an aside, I'd take the trio of Diener, Novak, and Matthews over any 3 Wisconsin born players that Ryan has landed.
I'd take him over Matthews in a heartbeat. Put Butch with McNeal, James, Cubes, and Hayward and we're talking national championship contender.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on December 10, 2007, 09:14:28 AM
Quote from: Coobeys Oil Depot on December 09, 2007, 01:32:42 PM
As an aside, I'd take the trio of Diener, Novak, and Matthews over any 3 Wisconsin born players that Ryan has landed.
I'd take him over Matthews in a heartbeat. Put Butch with McNeal, James, Cubes, and Hayward and we're talking national championship contender.
I'd agree with that, and not as any kind of criticism of Matthews, but kid's Butch's size don't grow on trees. As the old saying goes "you can't teach height." He's a difference maker in the middle.
It appears Greg Hartjes is the principal at Appleton West High School. Given his quotes to the media during the Butch recruitment, which displayed his disdain for all things Marquette, I bet he has steered many non athletes away from Marquette as well---to their detriment.
Are there any students at MU from Appleton West who can comment? I doubt there are many.
I couldn't disagree more...Brian Butch is not only a disappointment as a fifth year senior, but he is slow and mentally weak. If there's one thing I know about Marquette basketball, it is that you have to have these two things, speed and toughness, if you're even going to survive here at MU. Butch wouldn't have lasted here more than one year...he would have transfered to UW either way. I would take matthew's 8ppg and speed over butch's inconsistent play and bad attitude any day.
Quote from: Avenue Commons on December 10, 2007, 09:22:27 AM
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on December 10, 2007, 09:14:28 AM
Quote from: Coobeys Oil Depot on December 09, 2007, 01:32:42 PM
As an aside, I'd take the trio of Diener, Novak, and Matthews over any 3 Wisconsin born players that Ryan has landed.
I'd take him over Matthews in a heartbeat. Put Butch with McNeal, James, Cubes, and Hayward and we're talking national championship contender.
I'd agree with that, and not as any kind of criticism of Matthews, but kid's Butch's size don't grow on trees. As the old saying goes "you can't teach height." He's a difference maker in the middle.
Differece maker is a bit of a stretch. I think he might bog down our team more than anything.
Didn't Butch put on about 15-20 pounds in his red-shirt year at UW? I thought coming out of high school he was real athletic and would be able to play on the perimeter, and was a very good 3 pt shooter. If I'm remembering correctly then I think if he comes to MU he doesn't put on as much weight he'd be very good due to his athleticism. I thought one thing that UW fans were angry at was he put on too much weight and as a result took away some of his athleticism. I'm sorry I'm completely wrong in remembering this, but if he came out of high school as real athletic he could have been a great addition by being a big man and being able to spread it out with his 3 pt ability.
Give us Brian instead of Wes and we're only marginally better. For a McDonald's All-American he does not show all that much. He doesn't run the court well enough. I'm glad he's not at MU.
Appleton people don't know much about MU or anything not Packer or UW related. A friend of mine that went to public HS there said that many people thought he was going to school in the city of Marquette. In the UP!
Butch was one of my most despised players and I always gave my UW friends a hard time about one of the few if not only McD All Americans to ever get redshirted. They defended him until his junior (4th yr) until finally conceding he was flat out overrated. He didn't look bad Saturday, but his overall body of work will fall far short of the hype coming out of HS. I believe Rivals had him as the #2 center and #11 overall player. He was pretty cocky coming out talking national championship goals at his press conference signing. I agree that he probably wouldn't have been a good fit, especially if someone like Amoroso didn't fit in here.
Ryan is a good coach, but most of his big men have underachieved.
Quote from: Frozen Caveman Coach on December 10, 2007, 11:26:03 AM
Appleton people don't know much about MU or anything not Packer or UW related.
That's the feeling around the state in a lot of cities, big or small. I'm from West Bend, only 40 minutes from MU, and our school pushed kids to apply for madison, even if we had no desire to go there. It's just the way the state is. I'm glad MU is getting more national attention because now maybe people around the state will give us some more credit for what we can do and pay attention to us.
Appleton West's website under the counseling section has a picture and a 20+ page slide show school featuring one university (see bottom right of page).
Guess which one? Where is the love for UW GB???
http://www.aasd.k12.wi.us/Staff/reckerjane/Home.htm
Clearly they're teaching their athletes to set their goals REALLY low so as to not be disappointed in life. ;)
Having gone to Oshkosh West, and played in the same conference as Appleton West and Fondy. I can echo the sentiments already out there that MU just isn't really on the radar in the Fox Valley. As evidenced by Oshkosh's best player, Tim Jarmuez, committed to UW and is currently warming their bench.
As far as the kids coming out of AW that Hartjes may have steered to UW, I can only remember 2 D1 players - Butch and Dave Mader, who both went to UW. They were both were tall, slow ceneter/forwards who very good in HS, but Butch did have a strong mid-range game that Mader never did. Not sure if anyone else came out since 2003. But I'd say in looking back we haven't missed out on much. Butch would have been a nice addition though. Maybe under Crean's system he would have developed his mid-range game and maybe even gained some athleticism.
Hello all,
I'm a long time reader; first time contributor. This is a main source of MU basketball news, but with the talk of Butch, Hartjes, and Appleton West I felt obligated to respond. I graduated from West in 1995, so I never knew Hartjes because we was still coaching junior high basketball. That shows his talent level. However, I fully agree with the comments on a badger bias. A few years before me, there was a highly recruited football player named Jamie Mignon that chose Michigan over Madison. The local paper was full of bad things because he turned his back on UW. I will fully admit that the faculty in Appleton is cloistered from non-UW schools.
Now, don't get me wrong because Appleton as a small Wisconsin city is great. I go back to party with friends on College Avenue a couple times a year. Fortunately, I was not a clone and didn't follow the 10% of my class that went to Madison for school. Thank God because going to MU is one of the best decisions I have ever made.
As for Butch, it would nice to have another big, but there is no way he could keep up with MU's speed. He has never been a factor against MU.
Go MU!
from Sheboygan and an MU diehard for many years, to find another MU fan that prefers MU over UW is slim to none. I can't recall one person going to MU out of a large graduation class. I was surprised that we did get Travis. Guess they dont know what they're missing.
Its important to have a fan/alumni/future student presence in the Fox Valley, but there is nothing significant talent-wise from the region (although I could be convinced that Andy Polka (Loyola) may have helped MU at some point).
Let's face it: UW Madison is pretty exotic for your average person from that region. Particulary graduates from the UW-Oshkosh/Stevens Point crowd.
Had to respond to this post. As an Appleton West graduate from the 1980's, and as someone that visits Appleton regularly, I can attest that Marquette and the city of Milwaukee are different continents to most people from Appleton; a city like Chicago is a different planet :o. I followed the Brian Butch recruiting saga and would have been completely and totally shocked if he had selected Marquette.
I fondly remember my guidance counselor handing me a Wisconsin application, and then being confused when I explained that I didn't need it and I was applying to Marquette. At which point she spent approximately ten minutes attempting to talk me out of that decision. If I warranted ten minutes of UW persuasion, Brian Butch received weeks-years of pro-UW arm-twisting
In a way that UW bias is kind of sad because teachers and counselors naturally direct a lot of students to UW, which may not be the best fit for many students. Thinking back twenty years, I was shocked at the number of high school classmates that had dropped-out of UW.
With respect to Brian Butch, it would have been nice to have him at Marquette, but not a huge loss. He was not a good fit for Marquette's style of play, and UW with a slow methodical half-court offense is a better fit. He made the correct decision, but I could live without the condescension from his old hick basketball coach.
Quote from: cheebs09 on December 10, 2007, 10:58:51 AM
Didn't Butch put on about 15-20 pounds in his red-shirt year at UW? I thought coming out of high school he was real athletic and would be able to play on the perimeter, and was a very good 3 pt shooter. If I'm remembering correctly then I think if he comes to MU he doesn't put on as much weight he'd be very good due to his athleticism. I thought one thing that UW fans were angry at was he put on too much weight and as a result took away some of his athleticism. I'm sorry I'm completely wrong in remembering this, but if he came out of high school as real athletic he could have been a great addition by being a big man and being able to spread it out with his 3 pt ability.
Good point. In a Chicago Sun Times article back in February 2003, Greg Hartjes compared Butch to Dirk Nowitzki. For some strange reason, Butch has not evolved into a Nowitzki type player. Perhaps thats because of Bo Ryan?
My, Hartjes loved the spotlight back then. Greg, do you have any comment now?
This is the quote from the Sun Times back in February 2003 (before MU was a Final 4 team):
Going with the trend of big men, Butch isn't seen as a back-to-the-basket center.
He's not a traditional 5 player. His dribbling, passing and shooting allow him to play outside," Appleton West coach Greg Hartjes said. I liken him to Dirk Nowitzki. He can really score."
Jarrod Lovette was the best big man taken from Wisconsin over the last 20 years.
How bout them apples.
Quote from: mviale on December 10, 2007, 10:35:03 PM
Jarrod Lovette was the best big man taken from Wisconsin over the last 20 years.
How bout them apples.
Hate to say it, but you'd have to consider Mike Wilkinson ahead of Lovette.
dont agree - lovette was a great player - inside/outside play - prior to the health issues.
I also want to point out development at MU vs. UW:
Ooze averaged 2 pts/ 2 Rebs and 10 min, his Freshman year. in his Junior year, he averaged 8/7 in 27 min.
Butch averaged 3/2 and in 10 min, as a frosh. In his 4th yr (junior), he averaged 9/6 in 20 min.
Seems to me Ooze progressed much more considering his background.
Cheebs and Knight hit it on the head! Butch, coming out of HS, was thin, athletic, and quick. Unfortunately, Ryan wanted him to be a center, red-shirted him- in order to bulk him up, and changed his game completely. I seem to remember Butch winning the McD's All-American 3 point shooting contest. He much more of a Novak style player, soft around the rim, great outside shot, not bad ball handling. Ryan ruined him in MHO. Would have been an asset to MU, if not misused.
Quote from: augoman on December 11, 2007, 01:06:18 AM
Cheebs and Knight hit it on the head! Butch, coming out of HS, was thin, athletic, and quick. Unfortunately, Ryan wanted him to be a center, red-shirted him- in order to bulk him up, and changed his game completely. I seem to remember Butch winning the McD's All-American 3 point shooting contest. He much more of a Novak style player, soft around the rim, great outside shot, not bad ball handling. Ryan ruined him in MHO. Would have been an asset to MU, if not misused.
Wasn't a three point contest, it was the 2-Ball competition. Which still takes great shooting skills.