So I know we're really excited about the potential to expand campus and build new buildings but I'm with my sister on a tour of Iowa right now, who is just ahead of MU in the rankings and they are absolutely killing it on expansion right now.
They have 1 billion dollars worth of building projects going up right now, so it's nice that Marquette is expanding but so is everyone else, and at a much higher rate.
They are also three times bigger than Marquette. It is completely inaccurate to say that "everyone" is expanding "at a much higher rate."
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 23, 2015, 10:17:41 AM
They are also three times bigger than Marquette. It is completely inaccurate to say that "everyone" is expanding "at a much higher rate."
I think what I meant to say is that if MU wants to jump in the rankings, it's gonna take much more than a new jes res and a new athletics facility.
It's true there is an arms race amongst universities right now, especially with what I would call auxiliary buildings (dorm and recreational space, ie things not directly tied to education). However, I don't think MU wins by keeping up with the joneses.
The price of a college education is absolutely the next bubble to bust....those universities that are all in on the orgy of building, costs be damned, will fall very hard in the next 5-15 years. MU needs to do targeted growth but would be much better served keep cost growth low and focus on opportunities where there is shared cost/risk with industry/real world partners.
MU has zero issue attracting students right now....in fact they are looking at reducing the number of students they attract but increase the quality* of the student overall.
*quality isn't a great word to use there, but it's a very complicated explanation...basically becoming more picky in who we thing would value MU experience and will be successful down the road.
Thank goodness they weren't looking for quality in the 80's, or I would be wearing a red W.
Public vs private, hey? Dorms with amenities are the competition along with state of the art rec. centers. Gotta somehow raise your endowment to piss with da big boys, ai na?
Facilities are only one part of the criteria for university rankings. Not disagreeing with you that it is important. Per http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/ranking-criteria-and-weights I'm realizing more and more how little undergrad rankings reflect a useful measure.
One of the largest components is what high school counselors think of the university's reputation. This is so pointless compared with the result of the degree. If you want to be an engineer, who cares if your counselor knows if that school is strong, as long as the reputation with recruiters is strong.
I'm mid-MBA myself. While graduate school is a different animal, it illustrates how the "average joe" who doesn't care about business schools might be misguided on "best schools." Sure, Harvard and Stanford are always safe bets, but Booth, Darden and Tuck are consistently ranked higher by The Economist
http://www.economist.com/whichmba/full-time-mba-ranking
Totally irrelevant factors go into the average person's impression of what the best schools are. Most might assume Ivy Leagues are always the best schools. By B-School rankings (and others, I assume), you'd choose Booth or Darden over Cornell, Yale or Oxford ten times out of ten.
Bottom line is reputation to a generalist like some high school counselor is an asinine metric to place such a high weight behind. I want to see MU jump in the polls, but there are some of those ranking criteria that I honestly don't give two craps about.
Nice facilities attract students, both of quality and quantity. Nice facilities also impact the University's reputation as well. I think Marquette not only realizes this, but they have taken many steps to improve their facilities. They have improved its law school, engineering and dental schools as a first step. Sounds like they are going to be concentrating on athletic performance and business as a next step. I'm sure residence halls are part of this.
Quick link for anyone interested.... http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1085&context=faculty_scholarship
Points out how the academic reputation for the top 10 Law Schools is essentially unchanged in the last 50 years. This is becoming a component of rankings that would be similar to assigning points based on how old a school is. There's no point in focusing any resources on this, as the return is low.
I'm not knocking any of the expansion MU is doing - love seeing the university grow.
Personal opinion, however: They need to end the business school and move economics to art & sciences only. I don't think MU Business needs to exist, and I've never heard a differentiating statement from any faculty there on why it is important for MU to exist.
For example, why does it matter that you learn business in the context of a Jesuit university? I believe this can be important, but MU doesn't (in my experience) have any idea how to turn this into compelling differentiation. The only (kind of) consistent thing I have heard is that somehow MU students will be more ethical business leaders. Existing research on the consequences of teaching business ethics suggests that those who take business ethics classes appear to behave no more ethically than those who do not take such classes.
Bottom line: Kill the b-school unless you can have a compelling and differentiated position, and divert those resources toward making the rest of MU that much greater!
That may be the single, dumbest idea I have heard regarding the future of Marquette.
The business schools is considered a very strong regional school. It ties Marquette strongly into the Milwaukee and Chicago business community. And its alumni write checks. Big checks. It also enrolls nearly 20% of the University's students. You can't "divert resources" if you have killed off those resources.
I am all for schools looking at their programming and dropping those that aren't a value-add. That isn't the business school.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 23, 2015, 11:56:38 AM
That may be the single, dumbest idea I have heard regarding the future of Marquette.
The business schools is considered a very strong regional school. It ties Marquette strongly into the Milwaukee and Chicago business community. And its alumni write checks. Big checks. It also enrolls nearly 20% of the University's students. You can't "divert resources" if you have killed off those resources.
I am all for schools looking at their programming and dropping those that aren't a value-add. That isn't the business school.
1) Those check-writing alumni don't seem to support their own program. Straz has been an absolute sh1thole since long before I arrived on campus in 2003. The b-school alumni checks have gone to Law and Comm - all MU business school graduates.
2) Can you cite which rankings support your claim of it's strong regional standing? (Edit: If you can't make the top 150 in your program and are unranked, maybe you should consider a different direction http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-business-schools/marquette-university-01243) They're on their, what, third or fourth dean to take a stab at this?
3) Should the goal of the university be excellence or profit? Why is it that no actual elite school has an undergraduate business school? (EDIT: My bad on this, there are some elite schools which offer undergrad b-school programs. absolutely wrong on that)
Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 23, 2015, 11:23:38 AM
Public vs private, hey? Dorms with amenities are the competition along with state of the art rec. centers. Gotta somehow raise your endowment to piss with da big boys, ai na?
Doesn't Louisville have an avante garde program for attracting talent to campus?
Quote from: Grayson Allen on October 23, 2015, 12:03:09 PM
1) Those check-writing alumni don't seem to support their own program. Straz has been an absolute sh1thole since long before I arrived on campus in 2003. The b-school alumni checks have gone to Law and Comm - all MU business school graduates.
Has a Straz replacement been ever been prioritized? Is that something that has been pushed as a major fund-raising initiative? I know that that very recently they have had conversations with people about that. And even if I believe your assertion that b-school alumni checks have gone to Law and Comm (and I don't at face value), that could be because those actually were university priorities.
Quote from: Grayson Allen on October 23, 2015, 12:03:09 PM
2) Can you cite which rankings support your claim of it's strong regional standing? (Edit: If you can't make the top 150 in your program and are unranked, maybe you should consider a different direction http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-business-schools/marquette-university-01243) They're on their, what, third or fourth dean to take a stab at this?
Your link is for graduate school rankings. According to Marquette, its undergraduate business program was ranked 93rd in the country by USN&WR. (Full rankings are behind a paywall.) So that would make it a strong regional school.
Quote from: Grayson Allen on October 23, 2015, 12:03:09 PM
3) Should the goal of the university be excellence or profit? Why is it that no actual elite school has an undergraduate business school? (EDIT: My bad on this, there are some elite schools which offer undergrad b-school programs. absolutely wrong on that)
You need to be profitable, but you should do so while striving to be "excellent." I would argue that having the 93rd ranked undergraduate business school at the 86th best national university is no slouch. If that doesn't meet your definition of "excellence," then that's your deal.
But it would be financially disasterous for Marquette to eliminate its business school.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on October 23, 2015, 10:13:44 AM
So I know we're really excited about the potential to expand campus and build new buildings but I'm with my sister on a tour of Iowa right now, who is just ahead of MU in the rankings and they are absolutely killing it on expansion right now.
They have 1 billion dollars worth of building projects going up right now, so it's nice that Marquette is expanding but so is everyone else, and at a much higher rate.
Have you forgotten that the U of Iowa campus was basically destroyed by a flood 5 or 6 years ago? When Chick jr. took a tour there with Glow in '10, half the buildings were surrounded by cones and police tape. My guess is much, if not most of the building projects are simply replacing what had already been there.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 23, 2015, 11:56:38 AM
That may be the single, dumbest idea I have heard regarding the future of Marquette.
The business schools is considered a very strong regional school. It ties Marquette strongly into the Milwaukee and Chicago business community. And its alumni write checks. Big checks. It also enrolls nearly 20% of the University's students. You can't "divert resources" if you have killed off those resources.
I am all for schools looking at their programming and dropping those that aren't a value-add. That isn't the business school.
+1
Not to mention that the B-school has several high-ranking individual programs (accounting, reals-estate, supply chain, etc.).
The places that need to drop their business programs are the unremarkable, smaller private schools. No one looks at a resume and says, "Whoa! He's got a marketing degree from Cardinal Stritch! Set up an interview!"
Quote from: warriorchick on October 23, 2015, 12:29:27 PM
Have you forgotten that the U of Iowa campus was basically destroyed by a flood 5 or 6 years ago? When Chick jr. took a tour there with Glow in '10, half the buildings were surrounded by cones and police tape. My guess is much, if not most of the building projects are simply replacing what had already been there.
Didn't know that but I dint think that's the case nowadays. They're tearing down a parking lot to build a new pediatric teaching hospital, so now they're tearing down infrastructure to build new things. Maybe that was the case with the project that finished 2 years ago or so but I don't think that's the case now.
Quote from: warriorchick on October 23, 2015, 12:34:32 PM
+1
Not to mention that the B-school has several high-ranking individual programs (accounting, reals-estate, supply chain, etc.).
The places that need to drop their business programs are the unremarkable, smaller private schools. No one looks at a resume and says, "Whoa! He's got a marketing degree from Cardinal Stritch! Set up an interview!"
+1
Plus the part-time MBA program is a good fit for a lot of working folks to check the box on an MBA degree. I didn't think the program was very challenging so there could be some improvement there but conceptually it's a good fit with the university mission.
I'd actually go the other way and expand the B-school in terms of it's reach within the university. B-school needs to create partnerships with the other colleges to generate business related classes for the disciplines. As an example, the engineering school needs to have engineering in the business environment courses....one of the biggest gaps in engineers generally and with MU specifically is a lack of understanding how engineering needs to work within an environment of profit and loss. Same could be said for nursing or PT or journalism, etc.
Not sure if this applies, but with the cost of debt so incredibly low coupled with the fact that everyone kind of tacitly acknowledged the tuition hiking gravy train cannot go on forever, are schools embarking on the capital-intensive projects like real estate expansion and new buildings just "getting in while the getting's good?"
Quote from: jficke13 on October 23, 2015, 01:28:23 PM
Not sure if this applies, but with the cost of debt so incredibly low coupled with the fact that everyone kind of tacitly acknowledged the tuition hiking gravy train cannot go on forever, are schools embarking on the capital-intensive projects like real estate expansion and new buildings just "getting in while the getting's good?"
And financing rates are really low.
Quote from: jficke13 on October 23, 2015, 01:28:23 PM
Not sure if this applies, but with the cost of debt so incredibly low coupled with the fact that everyone kind of tacitly acknowledged the tuition hiking gravy train cannot go on forever, are schools embarking on the capital-intensive projects like real estate expansion and new buildings just "getting in while the getting's good?"
Maybe so.
But depending on how abruptly the gravy train ends, even today's low-cost debt might end up looking expensive in a few years.
Quote from: jficke13 on October 23, 2015, 01:28:23 PM
Not sure if this applies, but with the cost of debt so incredibly low coupled with the fact that everyone kind of tacitly acknowledged the tuition hiking gravy train cannot go on forever, are schools embarking on the capital-intensive projects like real estate expansion and new buildings just "getting in while the getting's good?"
This is 100% what is going on. This is why I think the university pricing and debt bubble will burst at some point. Once student loan interest rates go up and university debt becomes more expensive it will no longer be sustainable. There is seemingly no connection between the costs that universities incur and the quality of the product they deliver nor a connection to the price they charge.
Why are people assuming that student loan rates are going to increase? The federal government makes money...billions of dollars a year...on the Direct Loan Program. Students will continue to take out these loans because the benefits of a college education, on average, far outweigh the costs.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 23, 2015, 01:44:32 PM
Why are people assuming that student loan rates are going to increase? The federal government makes money...billions of dollars a year...on the Direct Loan Program. Students will continue to take out these loans because the benefits of a college education, on average, far outweigh the costs.
Because they are going to have to increase, as the government debt service goes up with increasing interest rates they are going to have to generate more revenue.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on October 23, 2015, 12:49:47 PM
Didn't know that but I dint think that's the case nowadays. They're tearing down a parking lot to build a new pediatric teaching hospital, so now they're tearing down infrastructure to build new things. Maybe that was the case with the project that finished 2 years ago or so but I don't think that's the case now.
If you are including a new hospital in with campus expansion, then you are not really comparing apples to apples.
That place is a medical care facility as much, if not more, than an place to educate students. And it has a built-in source of revenue.
Here's a big part of the problem:
(http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/5617da8cbd86ef15008c07a5-559-685/screen%20shot%202015-10-09%20at%2010.41.32%20am.png)
For-profit colleges are shams. Kudos to the Obama administration for FINALLY starting to realize this, but, it was way overdue.
I think these schools should be fined for false advertising. I also think that they should have their FAFSA funding cut.
EDIT: Editing in order to provide the link for the figure, in case anyoen is interested in reading the soure: http://www.businessinsider.com/how-u-of-phoenix-fleeced-america-2015-10
12 Liberty University - Good thing Dawson is on scholarship.
Quote from: warriorchick on October 23, 2015, 12:34:32 PM
+1
Not to mention that the B-school has several high-ranking individual programs (accounting, reals-estate, supply chain, etc.).
The places that need to drop their business programs are the unremarkable, smaller private schools. No one looks at a resume and says, "Whoa! He's got a marketing degree from Cardinal Stritch! Set up an interview!"
I think this is probably generally true, but I think there are related nuances worth mentioning.
If a student is going into a field like marketing, prestige and rank of the school probably matter. Why? Marketing, as a field, generally doesn't have an objective measure of quality. And so folks who need to hire a good marketer will likely turn to highly ranked schools. In other words, the school rank fills the quality-signal void that fields like marketing lack.
On the other hand, if a student is going into a field like computer science, prestige and rank of the school matter a lot less (barring places like MIT and CalTech, etc.). Why do I say that rank of the school matters less in comp sci vis-a-vis marketing? Because fields like computer science
have a clear signal of quality. You either know C++ or you don't. You either have experience coding or you don't, regardless of which school you went to. Java is the same at UW-Madison as it is at UW-Parkside.
Now, I'm not saying school rank is absolutely, positively meaningless for comp sci majors. What I am saying is that comp sci majors do not get nearly the same bump from their school's rank that marketing majors do.
Quote from: Eldon on October 23, 2015, 03:29:01 PM
Here's a big part of the problem:
(http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/5617da8cbd86ef15008c07a5-559-685/screen%20shot%202015-10-09%20at%2010.41.32%20am.png)
For-profit colleges are shams. Kudos to the Obama administration for FINALLY starting to realize this, but, it was way overdue.
I think these schools should be fined for false advertising. I also think that they should have their FAFSA funding cut.
Agree - most for-profit schools are a total joke. I just didn't realize they had jumped so incredibly high on the student loan list.
As an aside - should we be concerned that 6 of the 12 nonprofit schools on the more recent list are from the Big Twelethirfourteen?
Quote from: Grayson Allen on October 23, 2015, 12:03:09 PM
1) Those check-writing alumni don't seem to support their own program. Straz has been an absolute sh1thole since long before I arrived on campus in 2003. The b-school alumni checks have gone to Law and Comm - all MU business school graduates.
2) Can you cite which rankings support your claim of it's strong regional standing? (Edit: If you can't make the top 150 in your program and are unranked, maybe you should consider a different direction http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-business-schools/marquette-university-01243) They're on their, what, third or fourth dean to take a stab at this?
3) Should the goal of the university be excellence or profit? Why is it that no actual elite school has an undergraduate business school? (EDIT: My bad on this, there are some elite schools which offer undergrad b-school programs. absolutely wrong on that)
1) B-school alums can cut checks, but these checks may not go to Straz for at least two reasons.
i) These B-school alums actually donate to the law school. This may sound crazy. But I know a guy who donates to his alma mater's medical school, despite not being an alum of the med school.
ii) Even if B-school alums earmark their donations for the B-school, MU admin may channel whatever resources that were going to the B-school before the donation to other places. Funds are fungible. In order for an earmarked donation to have a sure-fire way to have an impact is to donate to that particular earmarked area more than the school's current budget for that area. That will ensure a net positive impact on the earmarked area.
2) Didn't you just state above that rankings were not a great indicator? Anyway, I can tell you that MU's AIM program is good. Very good. I don't care what any rankings say (and I don't know what they say).
3) Not sure how you are defining profit. IMO, the goal of a college/university is three-fold:
i) to enlighten the general populace through teaching, i.e., provide knowledge for the intrinsic value of knowledge
ii) to provide so that students can make an investment in their human capital, realize their full potential, and/or get the training that they need to switch industries if they/the economy sees fit
iii) to research, research, research.
Create knowledge (iii) and to promote it (i and ii)
Quote from: GooooMarquette on October 23, 2015, 03:44:37 PM
Agree - most for-profit schools are a total joke. I just didn't realize they had jumped so incredibly high on the student loan list.
As an aside - should we be concerned that 6 of the 12 nonprofit schools on the more recent list are from the Big Twelethirfourteen?
Keep in mind that these figures are gross, not per student. It obviously makes sense that schools that have more students also have more total student debt.
Quote from: warriorchick on October 23, 2015, 12:34:32 PM
+1
Not to mention that the B-school has several high-ranking individual programs (accounting, reals-estate, supply chain, etc.).
The places that need to drop their business programs are the unremarkable, smaller private schools. No one looks at a resume and says, "Whoa! He's got a marketing degree from Cardinal Stritch! Set up an interview!"
I love Marquette but I'd disagree that a bachelors in business opens many doors on its own, as compared with other schools. Marketing especially.
Quote from: Eldon on October 23, 2015, 03:53:03 PM
2) Didn't you just state above that rankings were not a great indicator? Anyway, I can tell you that MU's AIM program is good. Very good. I don't care what any rankings say (and I don't know what they say).
I'd define this as placing students in fields with firms that are very competitive. If AIMis ranked 1,000 in the nation but we're getting grads into starting jobs and a diverse set of firms in high-paying early roles, then that would fit my description.
I found the b-school curriculum to be WAY below the rest of MU during my time there, especially in career services. While I loved the experience of MU, I'd have saved a lot of money going to UWM for an equal or higher quality business education.
A - Dumping COBA would be the single dumbest idea ever by a factor of 100. Yes... at least 100 times dumber than "Marquette Gold."
Quote from: Eldon on October 23, 2015, 03:29:01 PM
Here's a big part of the problem:
(http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/5617da8cbd86ef15008c07a5-559-685/screen%20shot%202015-10-09%20at%2010.41.32%20am.png)
B - Go Jags!
C - It should be mentioned that today's business school graduates have the highest earning potential amongst their fellow graduates in A&H, science & tech, engineering, A&M, health care, etc.
Quote from: Grayson Allen on October 23, 2015, 04:20:27 PM
I'd define this as placing students in fields with firms that are very competitive. If AIMis ranked 1,000 in the nation but we're getting grads into starting jobs and a diverse set of firms in high-paying early roles, then that would fit my description.
D - AIM is placing their graduates in jobs most can't even comprehend. Real estate has a 100% placement rate. Accounting is top ten in the country for first-time CPA exam pass rates.
E - Just because one can't figure out what to do with a marketing degree doesn't mean the business school should be shut down.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on October 23, 2015, 03:44:37 PM
As an aside - should we be concerned that 6 of the 12 nonprofit schools on the more recent list are from the Big Twelethirfourteen?
5 of 12, actually. (7 of 12 if you want to get existential)
But that's OK, their grads have a tough time with 5, 6 and 7, too.
Quote from: Grayson Allen on October 23, 2015, 04:20:27 PM
I'd define this as placing students in fields with firms that are very competitive. If AIMis ranked 1,000 in the nation but we're getting grads into starting jobs and a diverse set of firms in high-paying early roles, then that would fit my description.
I found the b-school curriculum to be WAY below the rest of MU during my time there, especially in career services. While I loved the experience of MU, I'd have saved a lot of money going to UWM for an equal or higher quality business education.
4 ever can hook you up with a job driving a water truck, if you want. A ina.
Quote from: Grayson Allen on October 23, 2015, 04:08:56 PM
I love Marquette but I'd disagree that a bachelors in business opens many doors on its own, as compared with other schools. Marketing especially.
No wait just a goddam minute! That Zizzo chick was a Marketing major at MU!
Quote from: keefe on October 23, 2015, 11:44:51 PM
No wait just a goddam minute! That Zizzo chick was a Marketing major at MU!
Heresy, I tell you. Don't besmirch the good name of us BS'ers with a BAJ graduate.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on October 23, 2015, 03:44:37 PM
Agree - most for-profit schools are a total joke.
So, Doc, you are saying my Masters from Strayer University isn't as valuable as your Vandy diploma???
Quote from: keefe on October 23, 2015, 11:44:51 PM
No wait just a goddam minute! That Zizzo chick was a Marketing major at MU!
sorry "Zizzo Chick?"
Quote from: Grayson Allen on October 24, 2015, 02:34:43 PM
sorry "Zizzo Chick?"
The Branding and MarComm genius behind the Marquette Gold...
Evidently, she is a member of Marquette's Board of Trustees...
Quote from: keefe on October 24, 2015, 03:06:16 PM
The Branding and MarComm genius behind the Marquette Gold...
Evidently, she is a member of Marquette's Board of Trustees...
oof. Looks like a journalism grad, though. Blood isn't in the B-school's hands
Quote from: Grayson Allen on October 25, 2015, 01:16:56 AM
Blood isn't in the B-school's hands
Does anyone remember the newspaper put out by the College of Engineering? That thing was priceless.
In particular, they served up a steady diet of jokes about the business school, always referring to its hapless and witless students as "Biz Adders."
This was back in the Carter and Reagan years. It would be great to know that the "Biz Adders" are still being mocked.
Quote from: keefe on October 25, 2015, 02:42:25 AM
Does anyone remember the newspaper put out by the College of Engineering? That thing was priceless.
In particular, they served up a steady diet of jokes about the business school, always referring to its hapless and witless students as "Biz Adders."
This was back in the Carter and Reagan years. It would be great to know that the "Biz Adders" are still being mocked.
Yes, they are still mocked. However, it was only by one ancient professor that resembles a Manadrian monk despite being not being from Asian descent.
Quote from: keefe on October 25, 2015, 02:42:25 AM
Does anyone remember the newspaper put out by the College of Engineering? That thing was priceless.
In particular, they served up a steady diet of jokes about the business school, always referring to its hapless and witless students as "Biz Adders."
This was back in the Carter and Reagan years. It would be great to know that the "Biz Adders" are still being mocked.
Engineers: We have jobs, we have jobs
Biz Adders: Working for us, Working for us
Quote from: keefe on October 25, 2015, 02:42:25 AM
Does anyone remember the newspaper put out by the College of Engineering? That thing was priceless.
In particular, they served up a steady diet of jokes about the business school, always referring to its hapless and witless students as "Biz Adders."
This was back in the Carter and Reagan years. It would be great to know that the "Biz Adders" are still being mocked.
Not for sure on this, but I think it was called The Blueprint, hey?
Having spent last summer beginning the process of figuring out where my high schooler is going to spend $200+k of my hard earned money over the next 4-5 years, I was absolutely stunned by the infrastructure explosion at several of the universities we toured, including MU.
What am I looking for? A "really good" school for $40k/year rather than a school with really new buildings for $60k/year. (we live overseas, so we're "out of state" everywhere).
Which means I'm looking for a place that's spending responsibly now... not going crazy.