MUScoop

http://deadspin.com/bucks-john-henson-says-he-was-racially-profiled-at-jewe-1737394259

yikes.

Jeeeez.

Just so happens .. this is a few blocks from my house, and I know the owner.

Seeing the fresh Instagram link, I emailed it to him.  I won't write his reply here, but there is more to the story.  It'll come out later.

Regardless, we should totally jump to conclusions before any facts get in the way.   :-\

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 19, 2015, 04:20:52 PM
Just so happens .. this is a few blocks from my house, and I know the owner.

Seeing the fresh Instagram link, I emailed it to him.  I won't write his reply here, but there is more to the story.  It'll come out later.

Regardless, we should totally jump to conclusions before any facts get in the way.   :-\

I have a secret, I have a secret, I have secret.

C'mon man.

Like with most things, we have Henson's side, you have the owner's side, and shocker!  The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

And of course the owner is going to say he has a different story because...

...he has a different story, OR

...the original story is awful.

Not surprised.

john henson seems like a pretty mellow guy.  owner said something about suspicions re: dealer car he was driving-very reasonable that it was part of a promo with the dealer.

i'm sure there might be more to the story, BUT, must be nice to turn away a customer who could probably buy the business with a phone call and a check.  surprised they(the business) is waiting this long to comment much   

Well, this occurred in Whitefolks Bay where no street smarts are evident. I guess the owner says he's been robbed like 3 times in the last 12-18 months, still, a 6'11" skinny dude walks up to your store aren't there money signs as opposed to fear in your eyes?

This story has the owner's side:

QuoteDixon said the store has had three armed robberies in 18 months, and one of the suspect vehicles involved is from the same dealership as Henson's vehicle. Dixon said when employees saw the vehicle with dealer plates, they became suspicious based on the previous robberies.

Dixon said the misunderstanding is over the vehicle involved, and was not due to racial profiling.

http://deadspin.com/bucks-john-henson-says-he-was-racially-profiled-at-jewe-1737394259

Yeah let me go out on a limb here and say that if he was a white guy driving up in the same exact car, that they wouldn't have locked him out.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 19, 2015, 07:01:52 PM
Yeah let me go out on a limb here and say that if he was a white guy driving up in the same exact car, that they wouldn't have locked him out.

Exactly, might as well put a for sale sign up now, he done.

Yeah, Henson's a pretty threathenin' lookin' dude. Super easy to talk to and drives a Range Rover with Florida plates. Looks like Schwanke-Kasten just fooked themselves outta a $100k diamond bezelled Rolex sale 'cuz the associate broads browned out their thongs when a non-traditional came in and didn't look the part, ai na?

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 19, 2015, 04:20:52 PM
Just so happens .. this is a few blocks from my house, and I know the owner.

Seeing the fresh Instagram link, I emailed it to him.  I won't write his reply here, but there is more to the story.  It'll come out later.

Regardless, we should totally jump to conclusions before any facts get in the way.   :-\

He better darn well hope there's more to the story because if there isn't and it isn't totally compelling he may as well sell because his business just went to zero.

Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 19, 2015, 07:30:20 PM
Yeah, Henson's a pretty threathenin' lookin' dude. Super easy to talk to and drives a Range Rover with Florida plates. Looks like Schwanke-Kasten just fooked themselves outta a $100k diamond bezelled Rolex sale 'cuz the associate broads browned out their thongs when a non-traditional came in and didn't look the part, ai na?

no, he drives a ride from Kunes Country Motors.  Read the article, ai na?

Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on October 19, 2015, 07:45:50 PM
no, he drives a ride from Kunes Country Motors.  Read the article, ai na?

Nah, that ugly ass Chevy must just be his walkin' 'round wheels. He drives a black Range Rover as I said, hey?

Wow, welcome to the era of the internet where dumb decisions can end a business.

johnny must have interrupted the grand kleagle meeting in WHITEfish bay

The police just released a statement saying that, even after they identified who he was and that he was there to buy his first Rolex, that the people at the jeweler asked the police to "stand by as they looked at the Rolexes."  (He had a friend with him.)

Yeah no racial profiling going on here. Wow.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 19, 2015, 08:58:33 PM
The police just released a statement saying that, even after they identified who he was and that he was there to buy his first Rolex, that the people at the jeweler asked the police to "stand by as they looked at the Rolexes."  (He had a friend with him.)

Yeah no racial profiling going on here. Wow.

Hope your friend has a response for that one Topper. His business may be done.

Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on October 19, 2015, 09:13:50 PM
Hope your friend has a response for that one Topper. His business may be done.

Its already done, never gonna survive this under current owner and name, they are toast.

I picked up a ring from that store this summer. The door was locked, and wouldn't let me in until they verified the order. I'm an average sized white dude who was dressed business casual.

Prior to that police report, I could have seen how this could have gone sideways with poor communication. After reading about the employee wanting the cops there after they checked it out, there's no doubt this has a racial element to it.

Full disclosure, I live in WFB, and know Tom Dixon, admittedly not closely.  I've maybe had 10 conversations with him over the past 5 years.  I've never been inside Schwanke-Kasten .. Mrs. Hilltopper didn't marry a guy rich enough to afford that stuff!

The below article link summarizes the story pretty well.

TL;DR: Schwanke-Kasten got odd phone calls on Friday, concerning inventory and store hours, enough to report them to police and close the shop early Friday.   Police find a red Tahoe near the regular closing time, with men trying the door. 

Over the weekend, a Green Bay Rolex dealer was burglarized, so the owner of S-K asked for police to be around when they opened Monday, as they've had 3 armed robberies in 18 months.

Henson rolls up .. you guessed it, in a red Tahoe.   Employees see Tahoe, don't buzz him in, and call police.  Store is *always* locked and all customers are buzzed in.

PD calls in the plates, finds it's a dealership plate, calls dealership who don't know who has the plates and dealership says "it's possible someone stole the plates."

http://www.tmj4.com/sports/basketball/milwaukee-bucks/police-release-new-details-in-hensons-alleged-jewelry-store-racial-profiling

Does this absolve S-K (employees) of everything?  No.  They were certainly suspicious of phone calls that (perhaps were innocent.   They linked a robbery 100 miles away to further worry, enough to ask for extra patrols.  Then they see a Tahoe the police told them was there Friday after they closed and boom, here we go.

Other note: Henson has been in the store before, has met Dixon.  Apparently they didn't profile him then.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 19, 2015, 10:56:07 PM


Over the weekend, a Green Bay Rolex dealer was burglarized, so the owner of S-K asked for police to be around when they opened Monday, as they've had 3 armed robberies in 18 months.

They linked a robbery 100 miles away to further worry, enough to ask for extra patrols.

This is akin to a jeweler in Seattle freaking out because of a robbery in Portland.

People who don't think racial profiling is a reality are almost always white...

I'm scared of black people.

Why did he proceed to do business there?


My guess, the business will do just fine especially if they do this as a regular occurrence with customers across the board.  It won't be knocked down to zero if that is an action they have take before regardless of race, gender, etc if they can show it was done for safety without malice.

New yelp reviews:

(http://i.imgur.com/zbJOHaS.png)

Also has some new google reviews

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 20, 2015, 12:47:21 AM
Why did he proceed to do business there?


My guess, the business will do just fine especially if they do this as a regular occurrence with customers across the board.  It won't be knocked down to zero if that is an action they have take before regardless of race, gender, etc if they can show it was done for safety without malice.

not so sure??  problem here is mr. dixon should have had his side of the story out/press conference, like as soon as that twitter hit the air waves.  that band of silence from him and the police was an eternity.  gave people time to "surmise" and also made it look like dixon et.al needed time to get their "story straight".  jesse and all have had a real drop off in business-they'll be here any minute now. 

maybe, just maybe if mr dixon takes off his white hoodie(joke), and floods the airwaves with apologies and ?? he'll get through this somewhat, but there will be a brown spot that will be hard to remove.  he waited too long to 'splain his side of the story...now, will it fly?

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 19, 2015, 08:58:33 PM
The police just released a statement saying that, even after they identified who he was and that he was there to buy his first Rolex, that the people at the jeweler asked the police to "stand by as they looked at the Rolexes."  (He had a friend with him.)

Yeah no racial profiling going on here. Wow.

Yep.  Racist.  I read the police report.  Cops seemed to act in a friendly, courteous manner asking reasonable questions and then accepting the answers from Mr. Henson without any undo pressure.  My sincere hope is that John will recognize that they did their duty in a reasonable and professional manner when responding to a call of supposed suspicious activity.  AFTER those facts had been determined store employees still asked the officers to come around back and further asked then to remain while Mr. Henson looked at watches.  Are you freakin' kidding me?  Appropriately, the officers steadfastly refused that ridiculous request and resumed their normal patrols.  My hope is that they shook John's hand and wished him well on the season as they departed.   Lastly, the 'suspicious' red Tahoe incident from Friday night was used as an excuse.  There is zero evidence that those gentlemen on Friday had any malicious intent.

Topper mentions that the store is 'always' locked and that patrons are buzzed in.  I wonder if the Jewish looking elderly lady is routinely treated differently that a 20 something black man?  Ya think?

Sultan and Glow nailed it.


According to the WBPD, the employees still asked police to stay AFTER IT WAS EXPLAINED WHO HENSON WAS.  Kudos to WhiteFolks Bay PD for politely declining that request and making on their way.


I'm certain the owner feels bad about this, and I also have no reason to suspect he's any more racist than the average member of the social justice brigade who's out in full force this morning.  But he hired some damn morons to work for him, and it's going to cost him.


Then again, there's no such thing as bad publicity.  Henson may turn out to be the best thing that ever happened to this store... depends on how the cards are played.

In the store owner's defense, the police report does indicate that they told him to call back if the red Tahoe returned.  So, the second call to the police was justified in that regard.

But, I can't for the life of me figure out why they still would have had any problem whatsoever once they were told that it was someone from the Bucks.  I would imagine that "professional athlete" is on the very short list of best possible customers a jeweler could have walk into his shop on any given day. 

Quote from: jsglow on October 20, 2015, 06:57:11 AM
Yep.  Racist.  I read the police report.  Cops seemed to act in a friendly, courteous manner asking reasonable questions and then accepting the answers from Mr. Henson without any undo pressure.  My sincere hope is that John will recognize that they did their duty in a reasonable and professional manner when responding to a call of supposed suspicious activity.  AFTER those facts had been determined store employees still asked the officers to come around back and further asked then to remain while Mr. Henson looked at watches.  Are you freakin' kidding me?  Appropriately, the officers steadfastly refused that ridiculous request and resumed their normal patrols.  My hope is that they shook John's hand and wished him well on the season as they departed.   Lastly, the 'suspicious' red Tahoe incident from Friday night was used as an excuse.  There is zero evidence that those gentlemen on Friday had any malicious intent.

Topper mentions that the store is 'always' locked and that patrons are buzzed in.  I wonder if the Jewish looking elderly lady is routinely treated differently that a 20 something black man?  Ya think?

You're correct that the men in the suspicious Tahoe on Friday did nothing wrong. However, the police informed the store that the dealer plates may have been stolen and that they should notify police if the car returns. It's understandable that when the "same" vehicle returned, the employees would be a little on edge, especially considering there have been recent robberies. I honestly have no issue with anything done up to that point. The problem arose when the employees learned who he was and do not immediately begin apologizing, explaining the previous issue with the red Tahoe and apologizing some more. Then they took it a step further by requesting that the police stay while he shopped! That was the most ridiculous part. They know his car, they know who he is, they presumably know that he has money and they still suspect that he's going to rob the store? That's completely inexcusable.

It doesn't sound like Dixon was there at the time, but hopefully the employees or employees who took the lead in the situation have found themselves looking for work this morning.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on October 20, 2015, 08:53:07 AM
You're correct that the men in the suspicious Tahoe on Friday did nothing wrong. However, the police informed the store that the dealer plates may have been stolen and that they should notify police if the car returns. It's understandable that when the "same" vehicle returned, the employees would be a little on edge, especially considering there have been recent robberies. I honestly have no issue with anything done up to that point. The problem arose when the employees learned who he was and do not immediately begin apologizing, explaining the previous issue with the red Tahoe and apologizing some more. Then they took it a step further by requesting that the police stay while he shopped! That was the most ridiculous part. They know his car, they know who he is, they presumably know that he has money and they still suspect that he's going to rob the store? That's completely inexcusable.

Agree.

Quote from: StillAWarrior on October 20, 2015, 08:38:13 AM
In the store owner's defense, the police report does indicate that they told him to call back if the red Tahoe returned.  So, the second call to the police was justified in that regard.

But, I can't for the life of me figure out why they still would have had any problem whatsoever once they were told that it was someone from the Bucks.  I would imagine that "professional athlete" is on the very short list of best possible customers a jeweler could have walk into his shop on any given day.

One of the things that could beat that out is "professional athlete who just signed a contract extension," and, oh, by the way, that'd be John Henson.

http://www.sbnation.com/2015/10/2/9211201/john-henson-milwaukee-bucks-contract-early-extension-2015

Quote from: Brewtown Andy on October 20, 2015, 09:14:19 AM
One of the things that could beat that out is "professional athlete who just signed a contract extension," and, oh, by the way, that'd be John Henson.

http://www.sbnation.com/2015/10/2/9211201/john-henson-milwaukee-bucks-contract-early-extension-2015

This seems appropriate. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXdIK1xgfFk)

Again, am I misunderstanding but did Mr Henson despite this treatment stay to purchase a watch?

That was unclear to me...are there details around this?

He apparently looked at the watches but didn't make a purchase.  Not sure why that is relevant.  Perhaps he simply wanted to make a point.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 20, 2015, 09:18:47 AM
Again, am I misunderstanding but did Mr Henson despite this treatment stay to purchase a watch?

That was unclear to me...are there details around this?

Was speaking with a co-worker about this issue this morning and Henson staying to browse was brought up. He said that if Henson had simply left, it would have been almost like admitting that the employees were right and he really was up to no good. By sticking around and browsing through the store, he showed that their preconceived notions about him were incorrect.

Quote from: keefe on October 19, 2015, 11:20:22 PM
This is akin to a jeweler in Seattle freaking out because of a robbery in Portland.

People who don't think racial profiling is a reality are almost always white...

I believe racism and racial profiling exists and is widespread.  -- So it's pretty awesome that in this case, we have two scenarios to examine. 

Previously, Henson visited Schwanke-Kasten, they evaluated that same tall black man and buzzed him in, let him shop.   Must have been a decent experience, since he wanted to revisit the store.

So ..  What was different yesterday?  He was still black, of course.

Remove the remove the phone call and closing early, remove the report of a possibly stolen plate on a red Tahoe, remove the PD advice that if the Tahoe comes back, call us... and what do you get? 

Henson getting in, like he did before.  Just a rich guy buying a Rolex.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on October 20, 2015, 09:29:54 AM
Was speaking with a co-worker about this issue this morning and Henson staying to browse was brought up. He said that if Henson had simply left, it would have been almost like admitting that the employees were right and he really was up to no good. By sticking around and browsing through the store, he showed that their preconceived notions about him were incorrect.

And he also probably got a good chance to look at the watches and figure out what he liked.  And now he can buy it elsewhere.  I'm not a watch guy, but I'm told that you can get them much cheaper online.  Or, he can always pick one up while on the road.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 20, 2015, 09:31:20 AM
I believe racism and racial profiling exists and is widespread.  -- So it's pretty awesome that in this case, we have two scenarios to examine. 

Previously, Henson visited Schwanke-Kasten, they evaluated that same tall black man and buzzed him in, let him shop.   Must have been a decent experience, since he wanted to revisit the store.

So ..  What was different yesterday?  He was still black, of course.

Remove the remove the phone call and closing early, remove the report of a possibly stolen plate on a red Tahoe, remove the PD advice that if the Tahoe comes back, call us... and what do you get? 

Henson getting in, like he did before.  Just a rich guy buying a Rolex.

Conveniently forgetting about employees asking the police to stick around...

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on October 20, 2015, 08:53:07 AM
You're correct that the men in the suspicious Tahoe on Friday did nothing wrong. However, the police informed the store that the dealer plates may have been stolen and that they should notify police if the car returns. It's understandable that when the "same" vehicle returned, the employees would be a little on edge, especially considering there have been recent robberies. I honestly have no issue with anything done up to that point. The problem arose when the employees learned who he was and do not immediately begin apologizing, explaining the previous issue with the red Tahoe and apologizing some more. Then they took it a step further by requesting that the police stay while he shopped! That was the most ridiculous part. They know his car, they know who he is, they presumably know that he has money and they still suspect that he's going to rob the store? That's completely inexcusable.

It doesn't sound like Dixon was there at the time, but hopefully the employees or employees who took the lead in the situation have found themselves looking for work this morning.

On the same page.  Although I wonder exactly what would have provoked the Friday call in the first place?  If I'm not mistaken the facts on the ground at that moment were that someone had called on Thursday and Friday inquiring about the store's hours and that a seemingly separate Milwaukee store had once been robbed and that Whitefish Bay had been robbed once in the past couple of years.  So the store had a single previous incident and the word was out that Rolex dealers were being targeted by 'those' people.  I don't believe that we have a description of the Friday customers but I don't think it takes a rocket scientist.  So again, the cops trying to be a bit conservative suggest that if the red Tahoe shows up again to give them a jingle.

Here's the problem.  The store employees allowed this all to build up in their mind over the weekend.  'Those' people are reportedly targeting Rolex dealers.  People sounding like 'those' people called about our hours and had the audacity to show up when we would normally be open.  Then a horrible robbery occurs over the weekend 120 miles away.

Even when given a chance to reflect for a moment on Monday following the police encounter, they couldn't let it go as their own delusion and a very unfortunate misunderstanding. 

Frankly, I'm glad John Instagramed it.  HIS courage in not just sweeping it under the rug for the sake of the next TV commercial seeks to improve the human condition.  John Henson can be the big winner out of this and can set an example for all folks to follow with his words/actions going forward.   

once they knew it was JOHN freakin HENSON, so what if he was with an acquaintance.  if any funny stuff happens, they know exactly who to contact first. 

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 20, 2015, 09:34:54 AM

Conveniently forgetting about employees asking the police to stick around...

+100.

There should have been an 'Oh Sh*t' moment.  I almost get the rest (almost).  But when that moment didn't immediately happen.......... Character revealed.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 20, 2015, 09:22:23 AM
He apparently looked at the watches but didn't make a purchase.  Not sure why that is relevant.  Perhaps he simply wanted to make a point.

It could be relevant, though doubtful it is here. 

Granted, there's no excuse for being racist, but race-baiting someone so you can call them out seems just as inexcusable.

Quote from: Benny B on October 20, 2015, 09:47:01 AM
It could be relevant, though doubtful it is here. 

Granted, there's no excuse for being racist, but race-baiting someone so you can call them out seems just as inexcusable.

There's no evidence.  John's 25 years old.  Perhaps in the moment he thought it the gentlemanly thing to do.

Quote from: jsglow on October 20, 2015, 09:49:06 AM
There's no evidence.  John's 25 years old.  Perhaps in the moment he thought it the gentlemanly thing to do.

Again

Quote from: Benny B on October 20, 2015, 09:47:01 AM
It could be relevant, though doubtful it is here. 

Emphasis added.

Quote from: jsglow on October 20, 2015, 09:35:12 AM
On the same page.  Although I wonder exactly what would have provoked the Friday call in the first place?  If I'm not mistaken the facts on the ground at that moment were that someone had called on Thursday and Friday inquiring about the store's hours and that a seemingly separate Milwaukee store had once been robbed and that Whitefish Bay had been robbed once in the past couple of years.  So the store had a single previous incident and the word was out that Rolex dealers were being targeted by 'those' people.  I don't believe that we have a description of the Friday customers but I don't think it takes a rocket scientist.  So again, the cops trying to be a bit conservative suggest that if the red Tahoe shows up again to give them a jingle.

Here's the problem.  The store employees allowed this all to build up in their mind over the weekend.  'Those' people are reportedly targeting Rolex dealers.  People sounding like 'those' people called about our hours and had the audacity to show up when we would normally be open.  Then a horrible robbery occurs over the weekend 120 miles away.

Even when given a chance to reflect for a moment on Monday following the police encounter, they couldn't let it go as their own delusion and a very unfortunate misunderstanding. 

Frankly, I'm glad John Instagramed it.  HIS courage in not just sweeping it under the rug for the sake of the next TV commercial seeks to improve the human condition.  John Henson can be the big winner out of this and can set an example for all folks to follow with his words/actions going forward.   

IIRC, the burglary suspect in the Green Bay incident was described as a white male in a ski mask.

so they closed the store early on Friday when Henson was just arriving after having confirmed via phone that they carried Rolex and would still be open when he got there?

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on October 20, 2015, 10:03:12 AM
IIRC, the burglary suspect in the Green Bay incident was described as a white male in a ski mask.

Excellent point.  Perhaps this was not widely known publicly at the time.

Quote from: Michael Kenyon on October 20, 2015, 10:04:53 AM
so they closed the store early on Friday when Henson was just arriving after having confirmed via phone that they carried Rolex and would still be open when he got there?

No.  It doesn't seem that it was Henson at all last week.  I think that would have come out by now.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 20, 2015, 09:31:20 AM
I believe racism and racial profiling exists and is widespread.  -- So it's pretty awesome that in this case, we have two scenarios to examine. 

Previously, Henson visited Schwanke-Kasten, they evaluated that same tall black man and buzzed him in, let him shop.   Must have been a decent experience, since he wanted to revisit the store.

So ..  What was different yesterday?  He was still black, of course.

Remove the remove the phone call and closing early, remove the report of a possibly stolen plate on a red Tahoe, remove the PD advice that if the Tahoe comes back, call us... and what do you get? 

Henson getting in, like he did before.  Just a rich guy buying a Rolex.

So, why ask the police to stick around?  He's a return customer, for goodness sake.  That makes it even worse than asking the police to stick around after learning it was one of the Bucks.  That is the part that just doesn't add up, and makes me question the rest of the story.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 20, 2015, 09:34:54 AM

Conveniently forgetting about employees asking the police to stick around...

I'll take that response as you're OK with the reasonableness of the analysis, comparing his previous visit(s) to his second.

So now we have a new episode to parse, don't we, where an employee asked the police to stick around.   Now we get to ask questions about the exact wording of what the employee(s) said to the police.  We get to evaluate more contexts and parse thoughts and imaginations to find what we're looking for.

So here goes:  The employees, who thought they were going to be robbed on Friday, closed early.   They saw the suspect red Tahoe and abandoned the front area to call police.  It is not a stretch to believe they thought a robbery was imminent and the 2 minutes it takes for the police to arrive is an eternity.

Police come, evaluate Henson, talk to employees: This is a Buck, no robbery.  Be calm, carry on.   Employees shouldn't be freaked out anymore, but .. they are.   They've gone from holy crap, we're locking ourselves in the back room and are going to be in our 4th armed robbery in 18 months to .. calm down.   

So the police report says .. an employee requested the police stay.    We don't have body cam footage, so all we have is our theories of that moment.   Was she saying "I'm a racist and this black man scares me" or was she saying "The past 10 minutes have scared me, please stay."

Both theories are viable, no doubt.  It's this point where we just need to decide what to believe.  Do we think this employee is racist, or just scared, or both?  And what should the punishment be for each of those crimes?

Nothing here was perfect.  The were freaked out over a phone call that wasn't actually a thread (or was it?).  They were freaked out over the police telling them the Tahoe was potentially stolen, but it wasn't.  They were freaked out about a robbery 100 miles away, enough to visit the PD on a Sunday to file a request for more patrols, perhaps for nothing.  They called police as they were instructed, and continued their freak out for a while longer.     

Sorry.  It didn't go perfectly. 

Now they get to deal with whether or not their 116 year old business can stay open because an employee asked the police to stay a while longer.   

After reading the police report, I think it is pretty obvious that the employees were freaked out an paranoid, but also they were clearly racial profiling.

http://media.jrn.com/documents/schwanke+kasten2.pdf

And I find your scenario around this quote to be baffling at best:

"The employee requested that an officer stand by as they looked at the Rolexes, our officers refused and left the store."

The officers refused for a reason.  They knew there wasn't a threat.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 20, 2015, 11:00:49 AM
After reading the police report, I think it is pretty obvious that the employees were freaked out an paranoid, but also they were clearly racial profiling.

http://media.jrn.com/documents/schwanke+kasten2.pdf

And I find your scenario around this quote to be baffling at best:

"The employee requested that an officer stand by as they looked at the Rolexes, our officers refused and left the store."

The officers refused for a reason.  They knew there wasn't a threat.

Wait, how did you conclude they were racially profiling?  I thought that was settled.  They let him in once before, minus the red Tahoe closing early situation.

Certainly, the officers wanted to get out of there, they knew there wasn't a threat.  Had they stayed, presto, now the WFBPD is racist.   

The Chief using the word "refused" was a stroke of wisdom on his part.

They asked the officers to stick around while the black men were looking at the Rolexes.  If you think that the employee would make the same request if these were two white dudes, I think you are incredibly naive. 

Furthermore, where did you read that he had been let into the store before?  I haven't seen that anywhere.

If I had been robbed three times in 18 months I would be paranoid as well. Many jewelry stores I have been in have locked doors and you must be buzzed in. That is not as unusual as it seems. As is always the case in these matters, this could have been handled better. 

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 20, 2015, 11:16:32 AM
They asked the officers to stick around while the black men were looking at the Rolexes.  If you think that the employee would make the same request if these were two white dudes, I think you are incredibly naive. 

Furthermore, where did you read that he had been let into the store before?  I haven't seen that anywhere.

You think I'm incredibly naive.  I think you want to find racism, so you find it, even though you admit .. the employees were freaked out. 

As for Henson being in the store before, unfortunately all I have is Dixon's words:  "I have met John Henson in the store before. There is no excuse for what he experienced today and I hope to see him again to personally apologize."

Of course, he's a racist, so he'd invent that story, naturally.  Get the torches!

Topper, I think many here believe that Friday's call to the police was the first over reaction. So, a black man calls up and asked your hours?  So a black man showed up during those hours and the proprietors closed early?  Only after that did they learn the unusual license plate situation. Monday exacerbates that original situation.  And then when the cops figure it out, the employee still couldn't get his head around it.  I don't need to parse anything.  That's racist, pure and unadulterated. And to the best of my knowledge,  no one has implicated Dixon directly.

I'm going to go slightly off topic.  Both chick and I serve on the MU Parents Board.  It infuriates me to no end when we hear Frosh parents from Barrington (or pick your favorite Lilly white burb) complaining that 'unsavoury' black people are at the 16th Street bus stop. You mean the ones on the way home from work at the McCormick cafeteria?  Trust me.  We hear it all the time.

Quote from: jsglow on October 20, 2015, 11:36:53 AM
Topper, I think many here believe that Friday's call to the police was the first over reaction. So, a black man calls up and asked your hours?  So a black man showed up during those hours and the proprietors closed early?  Only after that did they learn the unusual license plate situation. Monday exacerbates that original situation.  And then when the cops figure it out, the employee still couldn't get his head around it.  I don't need to parse anything.  That's racist, pure and unadulterated. And to the best of my knowledge,  no one has implicated Dixon directly.

The employees are suspicious, yes.  They're not running a bakery.  They are a high value target, robbed before, and yeah, something clued them off when a call came in, asking about inventory and store closing times.  They did what they were supposed to: turn the tip over to the police.  Might be nothing, might be a clue.   This starts the ball rolling.

You want to parse that as racist, so you do, instead of employees being vigilant about not being robbed.

Quote from: jsglow on October 20, 2015, 11:36:53 AM
Topper, I think many here believe that Friday's call to the police was the first over reaction. So, a black man calls up and asked your hours?  So a black man showed up during those hours and the proprietors closed early?  Only after that did they learn the unusual license plate situation. Monday exacerbates that original situation.  And then when the cops figure it out, the employee still couldn't get his head around it.  I don't need to parse anything.  That's racist, pure and unadulterated. And to the best of my knowledge,  no one has implicated Dixon directly.

Do we know that it was a black man who called and a black man who showed up at the door on Friday? The police report doesn't specify. I'm just curious if that was written somewhere else but I've missed it. According to the police report, Dixon provided the WFPD with a surveillance photo of the GB suspect, who is white.

Quote from: jsglow on October 20, 2015, 11:49:06 AM
I'm going to go slightly off topic.  Both chick and I serve on the MU Parents Board.  It infuriates me to no end when we hear Frosh parents from Barrington (or pick your favorite Lilly white burb) complaining that 'unsavoury' black people are at the 16th Street bus stop. You mean the ones on the way home from work at the McCormick cafeteria?  Trust me.  We hear it all the time.

Reason why I almost left marquette after my freshman year. North Shore and south west suburbanites. So frustrating how people are sometimes.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 20, 2015, 11:31:16 AM
You think I'm incredibly naive.  I think you want to find racism, so you find it, even though you admit .. the employees were freaked out. 

As for Henson being in the store before, unfortunately all I have is Dixon's words:  "I have met John Henson in the store before. There is no excuse for what he experienced today and I hope to see him again to personally apologize."

Of course, he's a racist, so he'd invent that story, naturally.  Get the torches!

Here is the main reason I think it was racial profiling:  John Henson thought so. 

But if you want to use hyperbole instead of acknowledging that this bit of ugliness exists in your little town, go right ahead.

Quote from: jsglow on October 20, 2015, 11:49:06 AM
I'm going to go slightly off topic.  Both chick and I serve on the MU Parents Board.  It infuriates me to no end when we hear Frosh parents from Barrington (or pick your favorite Lilly white burb) complaining that 'unsavoury' black people are at the 16th Street bus stop. You mean the ones on the way home from work at the McCormick cafeteria?  Trust me.  We hear it all the time.

"Hey I am glad my kid is having an urban experience!!  Now, could you try to make it a little less urban??"

Quote from: StillAWarrior on October 20, 2015, 08:38:13 AM
In the store owner's defense, the police report does indicate that they told him to call back if the red Tahoe returned.  So, the second call to the police was justified in that regard.

But, I can't for the life of me figure out why they still would have had any problem whatsoever once they were told that it was someone from the Bucks.  I would imagine that "professional athlete" is on the very short list of best possible customers a jeweler could have walk into his shop on any given day.

Maybe cuz it was a black player from the Bucks?

Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on October 20, 2015, 11:55:48 AM
Reason why I almost left marquette after my freshman year. North Shore and south west suburbanites. So frustrating how people are sometimes.

We live in a southwest suburb now(for the past 7 years or so) and I'm still shocked by how out of touch the general population is with reality and the lack of demonstrated inclusiveness.

Clearly the store employees did not understand John Hensen's perspective on the situation and had no understanding of how their actions would impact him.  This is especially relevant given the request for an officer to stay after the event was concluded.

There is a possibility for this to have a positive outcome if the owner and John can work out a learning opportunity and awareness training for employees, etc.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 20, 2015, 09:18:47 AM
Again, am I misunderstanding but did Mr Henson despite this treatment stay to purchase a watch?

That was unclear to me...are there details around this?

Pretty obvious. A black guy only does that to case the joint.



Ho Hum - typical Chicos comment.

Quote from: jsglow on October 20, 2015, 09:35:12 AM
On the same page.  Although I wonder exactly what would have provoked the Friday call in the first place?  If I'm not mistaken the facts on the ground at that moment were that someone had called on Thursday and Friday inquiring about the store's hours and that a seemingly separate Milwaukee store had once been robbed and that Whitefish Bay had been robbed once in the past couple of years.  So the store had a single previous incident and the word was out that Rolex dealers were being targeted by 'those' people.  I don't believe that we have a description of the Friday customers but I don't think it takes a rocket scientist.  So again, the cops trying to be a bit conservative suggest that if the red Tahoe shows up again to give them a jingle.

Here's the problem.  The store employees allowed this all to build up in their mind over the weekend.  'Those' people are reportedly targeting Rolex dealers.  People sounding like 'those' people called about our hours and had the audacity to show up when we would normally be open.  Then a horrible robbery occurs over the weekend 120 miles away.

Even when given a chance to reflect for a moment on Monday following the police encounter, they couldn't let it go as their own delusion and a very unfortunate misunderstanding. 

Frankly, I'm glad John Instagramed it.  HIS courage in not just sweeping it under the rug for the sake of the next TV commercial seeks to improve the human condition.  John Henson can be the big winner out of this and can set an example for all folks to follow with his words/actions going forward.   

Best response in the thread, Glow.

Quote from: brandx on October 20, 2015, 12:24:16 PM
Pretty obvious. A black guy only does that to case the joint.



Ho Hum - typical Chicos comment.

I think Chicos is probably coming at it from a different racially insensitive position.  I think his point is going to be, was he outraged enough to not purchase or did he stay and shop despite the event.  He'll likely correlate that to some sort of justification along the lines of "well if he bought the watch anyway, how bad an experience could it be".

My apologizes in advance if I'm ascribing motives you don't have Chicos....just testing this baby out.

(https://images.rapgenius.com/a01f74a338d7cc8d2eaeb00c15d21d82.500x469x1.jpg)

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 20, 2015, 12:18:07 PM

"Hey I am glad my kid is having an urban experience!!  Now, could you try to make it a little less urban??"

True examples from this year alone:

- my kid can't walk from Amtrak to campus alone in broad daylight.  He needs university transportation.

- a shooting victim drives from Southside and stops his car on 16th when he realized help was available at MUPD but no all campus alert was sent. My precious was in grave danger!

- my kid's Service Learning forces her to take a bus through an emerging neighborhood.

- and one for you Chi. Some mom instructed her Frosh to take LIMO from McCormick to Jimmy John's because that parking lot is too dangerous.  My instructions to jsglow jr, punch that kid in the nose if he tries to get on Glowmobile.

Just a taste.

Quote from: jsglow on October 20, 2015, 01:04:28 PM
True examples from this year alone:

- my kid can't walk from Amtrak to campus alone in broad daylight.  He needs university transportation.

- a shooting victim drives from Southside and stops his car on 16th when he realized help was available at MUPD but no all campus alert was sent. My precious was in grave danger!

- my kid's Service Learning forces her to take a bus through an emerging neighborhood.

Just a taste.

You're a better person than me glow. I would either have been storming out of that room or completely just fought back. I already made enough snide comments driving LIMOs.

Quote from: jsglow on October 20, 2015, 01:04:28 PM
True examples from this year alone:

- my kid can't walk from Amtrak to campus alone in broad daylight.  He needs university transportation.

- a shooting victim drives from Southside and stops his car on 16th when he realized help was available at MUPD but no all campus alert was sent. My precious was in grave danger!

- my kid's Service Learning forces her to take a bus through an emerging neighborhood.

Just a taste.

I can attest that none of this is exaggerated in the least.  And they aren't even the most ridiculous complaints of these outrageous helicopter parents, but the best ones aren't racial and I don't want pull this thread off-topic.

I just edited.  Chiatown, not kidding.

Quote from: mu03eng on October 20, 2015, 12:28:02 PM
I think Chicos is probably coming at it from a different racially insensitive position.  I think his point is going to be, was he outraged enough to not purchase or did he stay and shop despite the event.  He'll likely correlate that to some sort of justification along the lines of "well if he bought the watch anyway, how bad an experience could it be".

My apologizes in advance if I'm ascribing motives you don't have Chicos....just testing this baby out.

(https://images.rapgenius.com/a01f74a338d7cc8d2eaeb00c15d21d82.500x469x1.jpg)

Phenomenal!

Quote from: jsglow on October 20, 2015, 01:04:28 PM
True examples from this year alone:

- my kid can't walk from Amtrak to campus alone in broad daylight.  He needs university transportation.

- a shooting victim drives from Southside and stops his car on 16th when he realized help was available at MUPD but no all campus alert was sent. My precious was in grave danger!

- my kid's Service Learning forces her to take a bus through an emerging neighborhood.

- and one for you Chi. Some mom instructed her Frosh to take LIMO from McCormick to Jimmy John's because that parking lot is too dangerous.  My instructions to jsglow jr, punch that kid in the nose if he tries to get on Glowmobile.

Just a taste.

Well, in fairness, one does have to turn a corner to get from McCormick to Jimmy Johns.  Can you see around corners?  It's probably better safe than sorry.  On a related note, MU should change the doors on the LIMOs so that they are completely see-through. 

Quote from: warriorchick on October 20, 2015, 01:21:10 PM
I can attest that none of this is exaggerated in the least.  And they aren't even the most ridiculous complaints of these outrageous helicopter parents, but the best ones aren't racial and I don't want pull this thread off-topic.

I'm going to talk to my friends in the admissions office.....we have to be able to screen these students/parents somehow right?  Or at least make an emphasis that says you are going to a school that is not in a bubble.

Damn Barrington rich people.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 20, 2015, 12:16:45 PM

Here is the main reason I think it was racial profiling:  John Henson thought so. 

Well, there you go then.  The guy who knew two of 20 facts: he wasn't being buzzed in, and the cops were called; he makes that determination.  Let the official record of racial profiling reflect that John Henson believes this.

I'd love to see a followup interview him now, with the preface of the police report.  Maybe he sticks to his platform, but boy, it'd sure be disappointing if he said "oh.  They were told to call the police if my Tahoe showed up? "

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 20, 2015, 12:16:45 PM
But if you want to use hyperbole instead of acknowledging that this bit of ugliness exists in your little town, go right ahead.

Indeed, this is painful for my village.  We're a nice community, really.  Well educated, and a destination for relocated global executives, so our small diversity is mostly of other highly educated folks.     If you think there are racial 'ugliness' differences between my village and Fox Point, Mequon, Brookfield, Waukesha, Cedarburg, and just about every suburban area in the country .. you're fooling yourself.  We just have a name that can be cleverly contorted into a racist taunt, White Folks Bay.

Wherever you live is just one jeweler's phone call away, one red Tahoe away, one set of odd circumstances away from being called racist. 

Quote from: mu03eng on October 20, 2015, 01:44:49 PM
I'm going to talk to my friends in the admissions office.....we have to be able to screen these students/parents somehow right?  Or at least make an emphasis that says you are going to a school that is not in a bubble.

Damn Barrington rich people.

03, it's a theme I discuss frequently with the power brokers at MU.  See, back in my day the culture was more kids like Chitown. Sure, it was more MKE focused but the kids are the same. That has shifted in 35 years and in many ways it's not for the better.

Quote from: jsglow on October 20, 2015, 11:49:06 AM
I'm going to go slightly off topic.  Both chick and I serve on the MU Parents Board.  It infuriates me to no end when we hear Frosh parents from Barrington (or pick your favorite Lilly white burb) complaining that 'unsavoury' black people are at the 16th Street bus stop. You mean the ones on the way home from work at the McCormick cafeteria?  Trust me.  We hear it all the time.

Interesting... in Naperville, Barrington is used as the quintessential example of a "lilly white burb" where all the whities fear minorities.  Everywhere else in the Chicago MSA, Naperville is that example.

Sucks to be you, Barrington.  That's like Pete Rose calling you out for gambling.

Quote from: jsglow on October 20, 2015, 01:23:12 PM
I just edited.  Chiatown, not kidding.

Yea, I've gotten some bad ones. The worst I can remember was getting a call at Raynor going to Abbotsford. The worst part was that I was on the north side of the street so they already walked half the distance. Needless to say I gave them a nice tour of campus.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 20, 2015, 01:49:48 PM
Well, there you go then.  The guy who knew two of 20 facts: he wasn't being buzzed in, and the cops were called; he makes that determination.  Let the official record of racial profiling reflect that John Henson believes this.

I'd love to see a followup interview him now, with the preface of the police report.  Maybe he sticks to his platform, but boy, it'd sure be disappointing if he said "oh.  They were told to call the police if my Tahoe showed up? "

Yeah I guess the alleged victim has no clue whatsoever.  As opposed to you, you know, a guy who's met the owner a few times.

And Henson did give a follow up interview.  He said the owner apologized, and was sincere, and acknowledged it wasn't handled appropriately.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/bucks/store-owner-sincere-in-his-apology-bucks-john-henson-says-after-racial-profiling-incident-b99600060z-334712911.html

"He knew that shouldn't have happened. He's had some prior incidents, but it still doesn't make it right for them to do what they did. It's a real issue, but right now I want to focus on the game tonight (vs. Minnesota) and there will be time to talk about it later. I am going to do some things to raise awareness of situations like that and go from there."

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 20, 2015, 01:49:48 PM
Indeed, this is painful for my village.  We're a nice community, really.  Well educated, and a destination for relocated global executives, so our small diversity is mostly of other highly educated folks.     If you think there are racial 'ugliness' differences between my village and Fox Point, Mequon, Brookfield, Waukesha, Cedarburg, and just about every suburban area in the country .. you're fooling yourself.  We just have a name that can be cleverly contorted into a racist taunt, White Folks Bay.

Whitefish Bay is a great town.  And obviously this can happen in all sorts of places.  You just seem to be going out of your way to make excuses for what seems VERY obvious.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 20, 2015, 01:49:48 PM
Wherever you live is just one jeweler's phone call away, one red Tahoe away, one set of odd circumstances away from being called racist. 

Don't BE racist, and you won't be CALLED racist.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 20, 2015, 02:12:41 PM
Don't BE racist, and you won't be CALLED racist.

My impression is that the owner was not present when the events actually occurred.  Am I mistaken?


I agree that an owner/manager/supervisor needs to take responsibility for those under their employ, but I'm not sure you can blanket-label someone based on their employees' conduct.

Quote from: Benny B on October 20, 2015, 02:39:10 PM
My impression is that the owner was not present when the events actually occurred.  Am I mistaken?


I agree that an owner/manager/supervisor needs to take responsibility for those under their employ, but I'm not sure you can blanket-label someone based on their employees' conduct.

I agree with this. From what I read the owner wasn't there. So to blanket him in with his employees probably isn't accurate.

I wasn't calling the owner racist.  I was calling the actions by his employees racist. 

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 20, 2015, 02:46:10 PM
I wasn't calling the owner racist.  I was calling the actions by his employees racist.

Not to split hairs here (even though I will), but why are you qualifying only the "actions of his employees" as racist?  Is it possible for non-racist people to act racist, or did you attend an anti-libel/slander seminar this morning?

Quote from: Benny B on October 20, 2015, 02:50:55 PM
Not to split hairs here (even though I will), but why are you qualifying only the "actions of his employees" as racist?  Is it possible for non-racist people to act racist, or did you attend an anti-libel/slander seminar this morning?

I think pretty much everyone has at one time or another "acted racist."  That isn't an indicator of if they are generally a racist person.

It seems in this case the people "racially profiled" John Henson.  Does that mean they are "racist?"  Maybe.  Maybe not.

Quote from: Benny B on October 20, 2015, 02:02:16 PM
Interesting... in Naperville, Barrington is used as the quintessential example of a "lilly white burb" where all the whities fear minorities.  Everywhere else in the Chicago MSA, Naperville is that example.

Sucks to be you, Barrington.  That's like Pete Rose calling you out for gambling.

Do you think we live in Naperville? Actually, we live in a much more diverse community; the most expensive house will run you in the mid-five figures (nicer neighborhood than ours), and we have a decent amount of Section 8 housing. 

Our kids went to a public high school that was less than 50% white.

Quote from: Benny B on October 20, 2015, 02:02:16 PM
Interesting... in Naperville, Barrington is used as the quintessential example of a "lilly white burb" where all the whities fear minorities.  Everywhere else in the Chicago MSA, Naperville is that example.

Sucks to be you, Barrington.  That's like Pete Rose calling you out for gambling.

Growing up on the Northside of the city, we would always give that distinct honor to Northbrook, Winnetka and Maine South HS.

Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on October 20, 2015, 03:06:32 PM
Growing up on the Northside of the city, we would always give that distinct honor to Northbrook, Winnetka and Maine South HS.

To be fair we lived 20 minutes from Barrington so we weren't exactly living in a slummy and diverse neighborhood, but if we got tired of picking on Barrington, Naperville was always the next go to, especially anyone who went to New Trier.  Buffalo Grove and Stevenson got a little wrath from us too

Quote from: warriorchick on October 20, 2015, 03:01:49 PM
Do you think we live in Naperville? Actually, we live in a much more diverse community; the most expensive house will run you in the mid-five figures (nicer neighborhood than ours), and we have a decent amount of Section 8 housing. 

Our kids went to a public high school that was less than 50% white.

Opps. Despite being a great accountant....... mid 6 figures.

Quote from: Benny B on October 20, 2015, 02:02:16 PM
Interesting... in Naperville, Barrington is used as the quintessential example of a "lilly white burb" where all the whities fear minorities.  Everywhere else in the Chicago MSA, Naperville is that example.

Sucks to be you, Barrington.  That's like Pete Rose calling you out for gambling.

Funny.  I almost went with Naperville!

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 20, 2015, 02:54:41 PM

I think pretty much everyone has at one time or another "acted racist."  That isn't an indicator of if they are generally a racist person.

It seems in this case the people "racially profiled" John Henson.  Does that mean they are "racist?"  Maybe.  Maybe not.

I don't think we can conclude if anyone IS racist in this event and I don't think we can conclude that anyone was ACTING racist in this event.  Clearly, all parties were acting on biases and without 100% of the facts(invariably no one has all the facts at the time of an event).  The employees at the store clearly failed to take into account how their actions could be perceived....is that because they are racist or because they lacked perspective....dunno, we don't have enough evidence.

John was also acting on his biases when he made the post(I think it was good that he did because there is a teaching moment for a lot people here), his experiences in life led him to a conclusion that may or may not be true, but it is what he felt.

Both parties have an opportunity to make a positive outcome out of this, if nothing else teach people to put yourself in the other person's shoes.

I'm not directing this at anyone particular, I just don't think there is a right and a wrong here that we can argue over.  Let's get the facts and learn to avoid these situations in the future.

I think this incident, while unfortunate, is being blown outta proportion and, understand, I am not excusin' the employees' behavior after Henson was identified as a member of the Bucks, and not a potential criminal. No one was injured or killed, as occurred last year at Innovative Optique, in Fox Point. There is a reason doors are locked and security measures taken. Chit happens and continues to happen everyday, hey?
Will it hurt S-K's business? I doubt it. Hittin' them in da pocketbook, doe, is one's best weapon. Like I said earlier, the joint lost a potential huge sale, cuz' the help got the willys. Really, nothin' more to see here. Personally, I don't care for the store or some of their other policies and have choosen to take my business to their competition.

Quote from: mu03eng on October 20, 2015, 03:16:05 PM
To be fair we lived 20 minutes from Barrington so we weren't exactly living in a slummy and diverse neighborhood, but if we got tired of picking on Barrington, Naperville was always the next go to, especially anyone who went to New Trier.  Buffalo Grove and Stevenson got a little wrath from us too

Really?  I always pegged you as a good cheesehead.

IMO the employees were prejudiced against JH, not necessarily racist.  I believe racist and prejudiced are not one in the same.  Words and actions are important.  Do these jewelry employees in their everyday life walk around committing consistent acts of hate against AA?  My guess is no.  In this insistence, did they use use race to prejudge JH and his friend and overreact?  It sounds like yes they did.

Quote from: jsglow on October 20, 2015, 03:31:14 PM
Really?  I always pegged you as a good cheesehead.

That was high school only.

My mom was from Wisconsin as was all of her family (my aunts, uncles, and cousins) and we moved all the time so I never became assimilated to any one place.  However we visited Wisconsin a lot so I guess I just picked it up....though I don't say pop or bubbler or sack or any of that crap.

Quote from: reinko on October 20, 2015, 03:38:31 PM
IMO the employees were prejudiced against JH, not necessarily racist. I believe racist and prejudiced are not one in the same.  Words and actions are important.  Do these jewelry employees in their everyday life walk around committing consistent acts of hate against AA?  My guess is no.  In this insistence, did they use use race to prejudge JH and his friend and overreact?  It sounds like yes they did.

I'm not sure one needs to walk around committing consistent acts of hate as part of everyday life to be a racist. In fact, I don't think anyone has to commit any specific act to be a racist.
Racism is a belief system. Sometimes those beliefs turn to action, sometimes they don't.

Data for only the largest suburbs in Chicago, plus various cities mentioned in this thread. Generally, many of the smaller cities not listed here (such as Hinsdale, New Lenox, Libertyville, Geneva, St. Charles, Glenview) have higher percentages of white residents.

(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee41/roblowe14/Suburbs%20by%20white.png) (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/Suburbs%20by%20white.png.html)

Quote from: mu03eng on October 20, 2015, 03:22:49 PM
I don't think we can conclude if anyone IS racist in this event and I don't think we can conclude that anyone was ACTING racist in this event.  Clearly, all parties were acting on biases and without 100% of the facts(invariably no one has all the facts at the time of an event).  The employees at the store clearly failed to take into account how their actions could be perceived....is that because they are racist or because they lacked perspective....dunno, we don't have enough evidence.

John was also acting on his biases when he made the post(I think it was good that he did because there is a teaching moment for a lot people here), his experiences in life led him to a conclusion that may or may not be true, but it is what he felt.

Both parties have an opportunity to make a positive outcome out of this, if nothing else teach people to put yourself in the other person's shoes.

I'm not directing this at anyone particular, I just don't think there is a right and a wrong here that we can argue over.  Let's get the facts and learn to avoid these situations in the future.

Well said.

From Henson's perspective...He went to buy a watch. The jewelry store wouldn't let him in and called the cops, who then asked him "irrelevant" (his wording) questions about how he got his car. Knowing nothing more than that, it sounds 100% like racial profiling and I don't blame him for feeling degraded and calling out the store at that time.

From the employee's perspective...A red Tahoe with (potentially stolen) dealer plates had parked outside the store on Friday. They contacted police and were told to call back if it returned. On Monday, a red Tahoe with (potentially stolen) dealer plates parked outside the store so they notified police. At that point, they were following security protocol.

After that is where it gets a little squirmy. Had ANY of the employees taken a minute to apologize to Henson, briefly explain the situation, apologize again, acknowledge that it looks very bad and apologize again, we likely wouldn't even know this had happened. Instead, an employee asked the cop to stay and THAT is where the primary issue arises for me.

Quote from: Henry Sugar on October 20, 2015, 04:02:02 PM
Data for only the largest suburbs in Chicago, plus various cities mentioned in this thread. Generally, many of the smaller cities not listed here (such as Hinsdale, New Lenox, Libertyville, Geneva, St. Charles, Glenview) have higher percentages of white residents.

(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee41/roblowe14/Suburbs%20by%20white.png) (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/Suburbs%20by%20white.png.html)

In a former life, I almost got fired once for telling of my company's customers that my boss lived in Aurora.  He lived in White Eagle, a subdivision of million-dollar homes. It is within the city limits of Aurora, but most of the residents lie and say they live in Naperville, which is on the other side of the street.  The developer even advertised in a manner that suggested it was in Aurora.  In response, the city of Aurora posted a huge "Welcome to Aurora" sign at the front entrance of the subdivision, and threatened to cut off city water to the development unless they stopped the chicanery.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 20, 2015, 02:12:41 PM
Yeah I guess the alleged victim has no clue whatsoever.  As opposed to you, you know, a guy who's met the owner a few times.

"No clue" .. and you accuse me of hyperbole?  I've based everything I've written off of the media and police reports, and one email Tom sent me that concurs with the police report.    Where there is theory or conjecture, I've noted it as such. 

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 20, 2015, 02:12:41 PM
And Henson did give a follow up interview.  He said the owner apologized, and was sincere, and acknowledged it wasn't handled appropriately.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/bucks/store-owner-sincere-in-his-apology-bucks-john-henson-says-after-racial-profiling-incident-b99600060z-334712911.html

"He knew that shouldn't have happened. He's had some prior incidents, but it still doesn't make it right for them to do what they did..."

Props to Henson.  His words are calm and proportionate.  He acknowledges that things were not as simple as they presented.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 20, 2015, 02:12:41 PM
You just seem to be going out of your way to make excuses for what seems VERY obvious.

That claim works both ways:  You seem to be going out of your way to make excuses to claim racism on this VERY obvious story of phone calls, possibly stolen trucks, and frightened employees.

"Don't BE racist, you won't be CALLED racist."  That's a fun game to play, since the slightest wrong is interpreted as being racist.  Call in a police tip; racist.  See the car the police told you to call about and do so; racist.  Be frightened and ask for the police to stay a while longer; racist.  Not to mention, I'm gonna guess my analysis of this episode have given me that title as well.

As claims of racism are made so frequently, so loosely, it loses meaning becoming  whatever anyone wants it to be, case in point.

--- On a broader issue .. fascinating how often the most famous (recent) cases of "racism" come with caveats that align one group versus another.  Trayvon Martin and Ferguson spring to mind, where a tremendous amount of effort is taken to label, and defend from labeling the episode as racist -- by people who are quite reasonable.   

Can't we rally around the absolutely certain cases like Charleston ... and Donald Trump?   ;)

Quote from: Benny B on October 20, 2015, 02:50:55 PM
Not to split hairs here (even though I will), but why are you qualifying only the "actions of his employees" as racist?  Is it possible for non-racist people to act racist, or did you attend an anti-libel/slander seminar this morning?

Probably because this case is not a one-off.

It happens over and over in this country day after day, week after week, month after month, etc. The Chicos of this world ALWAYS look to criticize the black guy first. And there are tens of millions of Chicos. Henson, who has only committed the heinous crime of being born black, was the first person criticized by this guy.

This affair is not about Henson - it is about the racist act committed by employees of a local business. But I am not surprised than some people's first response is to excuse the actions of these employees.

I would like to give credit where it is due however.

Dixon issued a statement:
"I appreciated the opportunity to personally meet with John Henson this morning to look him in the eye, shake hands, and apologize. No one should ever have to experience what he experienced.

We all agree that racial profiling is never acceptable and deeply regret how the circumstances unfolded Friday and Monday. John Henson is a valued member of the Bucks basketball organization and a valued member of the Milwaukee community. We believe that everyone – professional athlete or not – deserves to be treated with dignity and respect."


Especially meaningful after seeing comments on this incident on Breitbart. Disgusting vile people that read the crap on that site.

talk about White Folks Bay, look at some of these worthy candidates topping the list, wonder how they compare to WFB?

any chance the Bucks will have a Rolex night thanks to S-K?

Quote from: Henry Sugar on October 20, 2015, 04:02:02 PM
Data for only the largest suburbs in Chicago, plus various cities mentioned in this thread. Generally, many of the smaller cities not listed here (such as Hinsdale, New Lenox, Libertyville, Geneva, St. Charles, Glenview) have higher percentages of white residents.

(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee41/roblowe14/Suburbs%20by%20white.png) (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/Suburbs%20by%20white.png.html)

Quote from: Michael Kenyon on October 20, 2015, 04:33:50 PM
talk about White Folks Bay, look at some of these worthy candidates topping the list, wonder how they compare to WFB?

According to the Census Bureau, Whitefish Bay is 91.9 percent white.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/55/5586700.html

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 20, 2015, 04:10:52 PM
"Don't BE racist, you won't be CALLED racist."  That's a fun game to play, since the slightest wrong is interpreted as being racist.  Call in a police tip; racist.  See the car the police told you to call about and do so; racist.  Be frightened and ask for the police to stay a while longer; racist.  Not to mention, I'm gonna guess my analysis of this episode have given me that title as well.

Wow.  I guess you have decided to go the Chicos victimization route.  Congrats!

And as has been said earlier, the staff asking the Police to stay around was clearly racial profiling.  There was no reason for that.  No reason to be afraid.

Just keep burying your head in the sand.

Quote from: brandx on October 20, 2015, 04:25:55 PM
I would like to give credit where it is due however.

Dixon issued a statement:
"I appreciated the opportunity to personally meet with John Henson this morning to look him in the eye, shake hands, and apologize. No one should ever have to experience what he experienced.

We all agree that racial profiling is never acceptable and deeply regret how the circumstances unfolded Friday and Monday. John Henson is a valued member of the Bucks basketball organization and a valued member of the Milwaukee community. We believe that everyone – professional athlete or not – deserves to be treated with dignity and respect."

So the owner of the jewelry store just implied that racial profiling occurred.  Maybe someone should alert topper.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 20, 2015, 04:10:52 PM
"Don't BE racist, you won't be CALLED racist."  That's a fun game to play, since the slightest wrong is interpreted as being racist.  Call in a police tip; racist.  See the car the police told you to call about and do so; racist. Be frightened and ask for the police to stay a while longer; racist.  Not to mention, I'm gonna guess my analysis of this episode have given me that title as well.

As claims of racism are made so frequently, so loosely, it loses meaning becoming  whatever anyone wants it to be, case in point.

I was with your point until the bolded portion.  Be frightened?  Come on man.  While we can argue the semantics of the Red Tahoe and what it signified, it was established who Henson was, that he was no threat, and the whole thing was a misunderstanding.  To claim they were "frightened" and thats why the police were asked to stay longer is asinine.  Nobody is going to call you racist  for defending the first portion or the store owner who wasn't a part of the situation and has pretty much done everything right since then, but that piece is a bit too contrarian. 

Quote from: jsglow on October 20, 2015, 03:19:07 PM
Opps. Despite being a great accountant....... mid 6 figures.

And how do you know that (the house thing, not the great accountant part)?  I hope you haven't been asking your neighbors what they paid for their homes.

Quote from: brandx on October 20, 2015, 04:25:55 PM
I would like to give credit where it is due however.

Dixon issued a statement:
"I appreciated the opportunity to personally meet with John Henson this morning to look him in the eye, shake hands, and apologize. No one should ever have to experience what he experienced.

We all agree that racial profiling is never acceptable and deeply regret how the circumstances unfolded Friday and Monday. John Henson is a valued member of the Bucks basketball organization and a valued member of the Milwaukee community. We believe that everyone – professional athlete or not – deserves to be treated with dignity and respect."


Especially meaningful after seeing comments on this incident on Breitbart. Disgusting vile people that read the crap on that site.

Seems as if there was a very positive meeting today in St. Francis.  Let's all pray for real progress.  The more folks talk and build bridges the better off we are.  Again, both sides in this very unfortunate situation can serve as role models going forward.

Quote from: jsglow on October 20, 2015, 05:03:57 PM
Seems as if there was a very positive meeting today in St. Francis.  Let's all pray for real progress.  The more folks talk and build bridges the better off we are.  Again, both sides in this very unfortunate situation can serve as role models going forward.

Absolutely. A great portion of the racism is this country is institutional rather than overt and, while we will never be free of racism (no society will), I do believe it will get better as time passes.

To me, the greatest legacy of Obama is bringing race to the forefront. Uncomfortable, but necessary if we are ever to get past it.

I think this board represents society in general, so we have some who see racism and others who rush to defend whites first.

Quote from: jsglow on October 20, 2015, 11:49:06 AM
complaining that 'unsavoury' black people are at the 16th Street bus stop

They must prefer sweet black people then...

Quote from: reinko on October 20, 2015, 03:38:31 PM
IMO the employees were prejudiced against JH, not necessarily racist.  I believe racist and prejudiced are not one in the same.  Words and actions are important.  Do these jewelry employees in their everyday life walk around committing consistent acts of hate against AA?  My guess is no.  In this insistence, did they use use race to prejudge JH and his friend and overreact?  It sounds like yes they did.

So you would say that there is a difference between adulterous behavior and moments of weakness?

"I wasn't unfaithful because I was drunk..."

"I didn't cheat on my wife because the other woman had great tits..."

"It was only a blow job..."

"I didn't mean to actually have sex with her..."

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 20, 2015, 04:45:08 PM
And as has been said earlier, the staff asking the Police to stay around was clearly racial profiling.  There was no reason for that.  No reason to be afraid.

(re: JWags85's comment as well.)

No reason to be afraid?  Not rationally, we agree, no.  I think it's safe to assume they were not 100% rational at that moment.  They'd just been locked in their back room, fearing the worst.

I offered this detailed explanation for a staff member asking police to stay:

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=48945.msg765380#msg765380

Police arrive, evaluate Henson, talk to employees: This is a Buck, no robbery.  Be calm, carry on.   Employees shouldn't be freaked out anymore, but .. they are.   They've gone from holy crap, we're locking ourselves in the back room and are going to be in our 4th armed robbery in 18 months to .. calm down.   

So the police report says .. an employee requested the police stay.    We don't have body cam footage, so all we have is our theories of that moment.   Was she saying "I'm a racist and this black man scares me" or was she saying "The past 10 minutes have scared me, please stay."

Both theories are viable, no doubt.  It's this point where we just need to decide what to believe.  Do we think this employee is racist, or just scared, or both?  And what should the punishment be for each of those crimes?

Why would you think it's unreasonable the employee isn't plainly frightened by these events, unable to snap out of it instantly?   

(And would you change your mind if we knew this employee was a 60-year old grandmother?  Or a 40-something dude?  I know it would for me.  I'd be more reluctant to give the benefit of the doubt to a 40 year old asking for police to stay than a 60 y/o gal.   I want to evaluate the whole scene.  Do you?)

There was absolutely no reason to be afraid topper.  Why would they be frightened?  The person they thought might be a thief turned out to be a NBA athlete who just wanted to buy a watch.  If anything they should have been relieved.

But frightened?  Nope. 

And it wouldn't change my mind one iota if it were a 60 year old grandmother.

So again, we now have your apologist scenario, versus the words of John Henson and the actual implication of the owner that Henson was the victim of racial profiling.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 20, 2015, 11:16:32 AM
They asked the officers to stick around while the black men were looking at the Rolexes.  If you think that the employee would make the same request if these were two white dudes, I think you are incredibly naive. 

Furthermore, where did you read that he had been let into the store before?  I haven't seen that anywhere.

But do we know?  Say it is two white dudes all tatted up, wearing trench coats?  Say it is two white dudes with ZZ Top beards and speaking with an Armenian accent.

You get the idea.  People react to what the believe is a threat, and it certainly isn't exclusive to black guys.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 20, 2015, 12:16:45 PM

Here is the main reason I think it was racial profiling:  John Henson thought so. 

But if you want to use hyperbole instead of acknowledging that this bit of ugliness exists in your little town, go right ahead.

To be fair Sultan, plenty of people have said they felt an incident was racist when it wasn't.  Tat doesn't make Henson wrong, but let's acknowledge that this happens also.

Quote from: mu03eng on October 20, 2015, 12:28:02 PM
I think Chicos is probably coming at it from a different racially insensitive position.  I think his point is going to be, was he outraged enough to not purchase or did he stay and shop despite the event.  He'll likely correlate that to some sort of justification along the lines of "well if he bought the watch anyway, how bad an experience could it be".

My apologizes in advance if I'm ascribing motives you don't have Chicos....just testing this baby out.

(https://images.rapgenius.com/a01f74a338d7cc8d2eaeb00c15d21d82.500x469x1.jpg)

Reading Brandx lying comments is always a pleasure.

At any rate, no my point was if he felt disrespected, racially profiled, etc, why would he give them the time of day by staying there?  That's all. 

If he felt outraged, why stick around?  No what I mean.  That's why I asked if he bought something there. 

Quote from: warriorchick on October 20, 2015, 01:21:10 PM
I can attest that none of this is exaggerated in the least.  And they aren't even the most ridiculous complaints of these outrageous helicopter parents, but the best ones aren't racial and I don't want pull this thread off-topic.

Did you ask how many of them are from Lilly white neighborhoods, gated communities and practicing dems?  Those are my favorites.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 20, 2015, 02:46:10 PM
I wasn't calling the owner racist.  I was calling the actions by his employees racist.

But were they?

Again, two white guys tatted up show up in red Tahoe, trench coats....cops called?

I have my guess

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 20, 2015, 04:45:08 PM
Wow.  I guess you have decided to go the Chicos victimization route.  Congrats!

And as has been said earlier, the staff asking the Police to stay around was clearly racial profiling.  There was no reason for that.  No reason to be afraid.

Just keep burying your head in the sand.

I'm with Hilltopper on this.  You want to assume racism.  You might be right, but there is no certainty.  I've given you ample alternatives.

Ironically, this stuff isn't so black and white the way many of you want to make it.

People are actually trying to say these employees weren't wrong for asking a police officer to stick around while Henson and his buddy looked at a watch or 2 even after he was identified as a man who just signed a $45 million deal?  Wow.  Frightened?  Of what?  Did they ask the police officers to stick around for the rest of their business hours?

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 20, 2015, 07:45:46 PM
(re: JWags85's comment as well.)

No reason to be afraid?  Not rationally, we agree, no.  I think it's safe to assume they were not 100% rational at that moment.  They'd just been locked in their back room, fearing the worst.

They chose to lock themselves in the back room.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 20, 2015, 09:10:52 PM
Reading Brandx lying comments is always a pleasure.

At any rate, no my point was if he felt disrespected, racially profiled, etc, why would he give them the time of day by staying there?  That's all. 

If he felt outraged, why stick around?  No what I mean.  That's why I asked if he bought something there.

I stand by my words. You had 4 posts in this thread before your pathetic comment comment about me. Here they are.

1st quote:
Why did he proceed to do business there? My guess, the business will do just fine especially if they do this as a regular occurrence with customers across the board.  It won't be knocked down to zero if that is an action they have take before regardless of race, gender, etc if they can show it was done for safety without malice.

2nd quote:
Again, am I misunderstanding but did Mr Henson despite this treatment stay to purchase a watch? That was unclear to me...are there details around this?

3rd quote:
But do we know?  Say it is two white dudes all tatted up, wearing trench coats?  Say it is two white dudes with ZZ Top beards and speaking with an Armenian accent. You get the idea.  People react to what the believe is a threat, and it certainly isn't exclusive to black guys.

4th quote:
To be fair Sultan, plenty of people have said they felt an incident was racist when it wasn't.  Tat doesn't make Henson wrong, but let's acknowledge that this happens also.


Not one word criticizing the white employees who blatantly racially profiled a customer. You only question the black guy. No one else. And this a a pattern that racists like you use over and over. Rich whites are never to blame.

If only you could show the class exhibited by the owner of the jewelry store just once in your life.

Quote from: warriorchick on October 20, 2015, 01:21:10 PM
I can attest that none of this is exaggerated in the least.  And they aren't even the most ridiculous complaints of these outrageous helicopter parents, but the best ones aren't racial and I don't want pull this thread off-topic.

I'd be okay with it for this kind of entertainment value.

   " We all agree that racial profiling is never acceptable"   

another broad brush statement that is another example of how the left will use the "R" word as a weapon.  of course there are appropriate times when racial profiling is necessary.  when it is used to help keep society safe; to help find a rapist, robber, terrorist, criminal, etc.   

so NO, we all do not agree-i love(actually not) when that statement is used as a preclude-establishing a faulty conclusion before leading into the subject.  it's presumptive and misleading.  it's like, oh, now that you set that boundary, but but but...wait.  maybe you and your friends agree, but leave the rest of us to make up our own minds please and we will tell you if we agree or not

Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 21, 2015, 05:15:47 AM
   " We all agree that racial profiling is never acceptable"   

another broad brush statement that is another example of how the left will use the "R" word as a weapon.  of course there are appropriate times when racial profiling is necessary.  when it is used to help keep society safe; to help find a rapist, robber, terrorist, criminal, etc.   

I think you need to look up the term racial profiling because it is NEVER appropriate.  Racial profiling means using someone's race as the sole reason to suspect someone of a crime, etc.  It doesn't mean that if someone matches the description of a criminal or terrorist that race can't be part of that description.

Quote from: Brewtown Andy on October 21, 2015, 01:07:44 AM
I'd be okay with it for this kind of entertainment value.

Okay, if only to distract people and keep this thread from turning ugly.

Here is the most recent one:  A woman complained that this semester, her daughter had 8:00 classes every morning and and also, some evening classes. "At this point, I had to step in. How is she supposed to find time to study with a schedule like that?"

Quote from: warriorchick on October 21, 2015, 08:01:29 AM
Okay, if only to distract people and keep this thread from turning ugly.

Here is the most recent one:  A woman complained that this semester, her daughter had 8:00 classes every morning and and also, some evening classes. "At this point, I had to step in. How is she supposed to find time to study with a schedule like that?"

With a straight face you should have responded with "tell her to get some cocaine and study all night like everyone else"  Could have been the greatest moment in anything ever

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 21, 2015, 07:33:21 AM

I think you need to look up the term racial profiling because it is NEVER appropriate.  Racial profiling means using someone's race as the sole reason to suspect someone of a crime, etc.  It doesn't mean that if someone matches the description of a criminal or terrorist that race can't be part of that description.

On Thursday, I drove through a Border Patrol checkpoint on I-8 in east San Diego County.  I can wholeheartedly assure you that they were racially profiling EVERYONE.  Fortunately, I don't look like an illegal immigrant, so we got the polite hand that waved us through.

Here's the kicker... the Border Patrol agent who was deciding who to wave through and who to direct to the "examination station" was clearly of Latino ancestry.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 20, 2015, 08:01:47 PM
There was absolutely no reason to be afraid topper.  Why would they be frightened?  The person they thought might be a thief turned out to be a NBA athlete who just wanted to buy a watch.  If anything they should have been relieved.

But frightened?  Nope. 

And it wouldn't change my mind one iota if it were a 60 year old grandmother.

So again, we now have your apologist scenario, versus the words of John Henson and the actual implication of the owner that Henson was the victim of racial profiling.

Except I've given you extremely plausible reasons to be, for a time, frightened, to which your retort is just "No."   This is compounded by stubbornness to realize a 60 year old grandmother just might not have the capacity to snap out of a traumatic episode as quickly as you'd like her to, so .. racism!   It indicates an unwillingness accept the possible validity of certainly viable alternatives.

This is the crux of why the (for lack of a better phrase) racism recognition movement moves slowly or not at all.  The staunch belief that all gray episodes like this are pound-on-the-table racism and the perpetrators must be outed and punished (and often, very disproportionately.)  Instead, prosecute cases without so many caveats, where there's no need to parse and do somersaults to find the one sentence someone said that could be might be maybe racism .. do that, and agreement will follow.  Meanwhile, cases like these don't unify, they solidify and yield the "race hustler" pejorative, since so much is marked as racism when there are other alternatives that are less damning.

Also .. It's a good point that you added the word "implication" of the owner that he was racially profiled, because .. that's all he did.  He didn't say Henson was profiled, he just said RP was wrong.  I get it, the context was this episode, yet .. he chose those words quite purposely in his well crafted public relations statement for maximum mea cupla.

Quote from: Benny B on October 21, 2015, 09:30:50 AM
On Thursday, I drove through a Border Patrol checkpoint on I-8 in east San Diego County.  I can wholeheartedly assure you that they were racially profiling EVERYONE.  Fortunately, I don't look like an illegal immigrant, so we got the polite hand that waved us through.

I've only been through the border once .. I think it was 1975 and I was 6 years old on a tourist bus trip to Tijuana.

I distinctly remember everyone stepping off the return bus and being instructed to say "I am a citizen of the United States of America" to the patrol guy.

I thought for sure I was going to ef it up and not get back in!   :P

Quote from: mu03eng on October 21, 2015, 08:11:20 AM
With a straight face you should have responded with "tell her to get some cocaine and study all night like everyone else"  Could have been the greatest moment in anything ever

(http://www.blackinsurancenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Rick-James-Cocaine-300x199.jpg)

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 21, 2015, 09:34:03 AM
I've only been through the border once .. I think it was 1975 and I was 6 years old on a tourist bus trip to Tijuana.

I distinctly remember everyone stepping off the return bus and being instructed to say "I am a citizen of the United States of America" to the patrol guy.

I thought for sure I was going to ef it up and not get back in!   :P

I'm going to dispense with my usual "6 year-old in Tijuana" joke to simply reiterate and clarify that the checkpoint was on I-8.... 13 miles from the US-Mexico border (as the crow flies).

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 21, 2015, 09:31:44 AM
Except I've given you extremely plausible reasons to be, for a time, frightened, to which your retort is just "No."   This is compounded by stubbornness to realize a 60 year old grandmother just might not have the capacity to snap out of a traumatic episode as quickly as you'd like her to, so .. racism!   It indicates an unwillingness accept the possible validity of certainly viable alternatives.

This is the crux of why the (for lack of a better phrase) racism recognition movement moves slowly or not at all.  The staunch belief that all gray episodes like this are pound-on-the-table racism and the perpetrators must be outed and punished (and often, very disproportionately.)  Instead, prosecute cases without so many caveats, where there's no need to parse and do somersaults to find the one sentence someone said that could be might be maybe racism .. do that, and agreement will follow.  Meanwhile, cases like these don't unify, they solidify and yield the "race hustler" pejorative, since so much is marked as racism when there are other alternatives that are less damning.

Also .. It's a good point that you added the word "implication" of the owner that he was racially profiled, because .. that's all he did.  He didn't say Henson was profiled, he just said RP was wrong.  I get it, the context was this episode, yet .. he chose those words quite purposely in his well crafted public relations statement for maximum mea cupla.

Best case, this was pretty bad customer service....worst case their was a racial component to this.  I don't know how you prove this was racist and I tend to agree making everything racist actually retards the process of moving beyond race.

We don't know that the employees even saw Henson, if not I'm not sure how it can be racist but it seems like a bit of a stretch.

Back to the customer service piece, this is where the owner really has the work to do.  Even if everything else is 100% bad confluence of events, once Henson is identified by police the sales force should have been doing everything to fall all over him A. because he's got a lot of money to spend and B. because he's a human being who's had a very bad experience of his own.

(Preface to this next statement, I'm not saying my total experience is comparable to Henson's...his was much worse, but the core principal of customer service is the same).  I've had several occasions where I've been in less than business formal attire for some reason and had to go some place "classy" and I've gotten crappy service as a result.  One time I was down in the Chicago burbs helping my dad with something on the house.  I was in jeans, tshirt and a ball cap so Canadian fancy, but not ritzy Chicago fancy.  After we wrapped up I was talking to them about getting my then girlfriend now wife a present and a watch was one of the things I threw out.  They mentioned a particular jewerly store I forgot was in the area that would probably have the watch I was looking for.  It was sort of on my way back home so I decided to stop by.  The people there could not have been more rude, largely ignored me and even when I managed to get someone's attention she straight up asked me if I was "just looking or actually interested in buying".  I said I had been interested in buying a watch they had but wasn't interested anymore.  Was it because I wasn't dressed well or were they just rude?  Who knows, but it was bad customer service.


It's the Julia Roberts on Rodeo Drive from Pretty Woman scenario.

Quote from: jsglow on October 20, 2015, 01:04:28 PM
True examples from this year alone:

- my kid can't walk from Amtrak to campus alone in broad daylight.  He needs university transportation.

- a shooting victim drives from Southside and stops his car on 16th when he realized help was available at MUPD but no all campus alert was sent. My precious was in grave danger!

- my kid's Service Learning forces her to take a bus through an emerging neighborhood.

- and one for you Chi. Some mom instructed her Frosh to take LIMO from McCormick to Jimmy John's because that parking lot is too dangerous.  My instructions to jsglow jr, punch that kid in the nose if he tries to get on Glowmobile.

Just a taste.

Holy Hell. When I went off to college my parents gave me a skillet, $50, and a note that said "good luck!" They have since called me on my birthday (every year), holidays, and once a month otherwise (barring major events like my aunt getting cancer or my grandma dying). I can't imagine having parents so obnoxiously involved in my business. I graduate from grad school in the spring.

Caveat, I am one of 16 children.

Quote from: mu03eng on October 21, 2015, 08:11:20 AM
With a straight face you should have responded with "tell her to get some cocaine and study all night like everyone else"  Could have been the greatest moment in anything ever

All the cool kids are doing adderall these days.

Quote from: reinko on October 20, 2015, 03:38:31 PM
IMO the employees were prejudiced against JH, not necessarily racist.  I believe racist and prejudiced are not one in the same.  Words and actions are important.  Do these jewelry employees in their everyday life walk around committing consistent acts of hate against AA?  My guess is no.  In this insistence, did they use use race to prejudge JH and his friend and overreact?  It sounds like yes they did.

For whatever reason this thread struck a chord with me.  Reinko is spot on.  The employee was prejudice not necessarily racist, and there IS a difference.

The employee sized Henson up and he was a triple threat: black, male, and young.  A decision was made that he was going to rob the place and was not a customer.  The rest is background noise.  Bad move on their part because they missed one of the most important cues not easy to discern from appearance alone; he is very wealthy.

I am glad this story is getting a lot of attention, especially on here.  Better to hear Henson's story than negative nightly news stories that reinforces stereotypes.  Just a reminder of the old saying "don't judge a book by its cover" or for the more holy, "judge not, lest ye be judged."

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 21, 2015, 09:31:44 AM
Except I've given you extremely plausible reasons to be, for a time, frightened, to which your retort is just "No."   This is compounded by stubbornness to realize a 60 year old grandmother just might not have the capacity to snap out of a traumatic episode as quickly as you'd like her to, so .. racism!   It indicates an unwillingness accept the possible validity of certainly viable alternatives.

Because IMO it isn't a "plausible reason."

There is absolutely NO reason that I can think of why this would be classified as a "traumatic experience" that they would need a police presence. 

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 21, 2015, 09:31:44 AM
This is the crux of why the (for lack of a better phrase) racism recognition movement moves slowly or not at all.  The staunch belief that all gray episodes like this are pound-on-the-table racism and the perpetrators must be outed and punished (and often, very disproportionately.)  Instead, prosecute cases without so many caveats, where there's no need to parse and do somersaults to find the one sentence someone said that could be might be maybe racism .. do that, and agreement will follow.  Meanwhile, cases like these don't unify, they solidify and yield the "race hustler" pejorative, since so much is marked as racism when there are other alternatives that are less damning.

Right.  The black guys really don't know when it is racism.  It is only racism when the white guys can't come up with a better explanation.

I'm am not saying that these people should be outed and punished.  I never said anyone should lose their job over this, and I certainly don't think they should be forced to close.  I actually think both sides are handling this very well and turning it into a learning experience is the best possible outcome.

Quote from: Benny B on October 21, 2015, 09:30:50 AM
Fortunately, I don't look like an illegal immigrant, so we got the polite hand that waved us through.

I don't know....I bet you look a lot like one of those Canadians that are clearly up to no good....

Quote from: mu03eng on October 21, 2015, 08:11:20 AM
With a straight face you should have responded with "tell her to get some cocaine and study all night like everyone else"  Could have been the greatest moment in anything ever

Yeah, not in front of MU administration I am not...

Although I was tempted to say, "Hmmm...maybe she could study at any point between 8:50 a.m. and 6:00 p.m.?  I don't know; sounds like that requires more time management skills than your kid obviously has..."

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 21, 2015, 07:33:21 AM

I think you need to look up the term racial profiling because it is NEVER appropriate.  Racial profiling means using someone's race as the sole reason to suspect someone of a crime, etc.  It doesn't mean that if someone matches the description of a criminal or terrorist that race can't be part of that description.

alrighty then-tell that to obama et.al.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/12/07/obama-administration-decides-to-continue-racial-profiling-in-immigration-law-enforcement/

it may not be right or proper, BUT, if it is used to keep people safe?  here we go-your wife and/or kids have been violated by a fill-in-the-blank_______________ person who looks like_________, is ______________ about X foot tall, weighing X lbs wearing....

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 21, 2015, 09:31:44 AM
This is compounded by stubbornness to realize a 60 year old grandmother just might not have the capacity to snap out of a traumatic episode as quickly as you'd like her to, so .. racism!

I don't know these people, and I'm not going to call anyone racist over this.  I, like some others here, believe that there can be a difference between unconscious/subconscious prejudice/bias and racism.  I'm sure others reject that notion entirely.  But I think there are a lot of very good people who actively fight those unconscious/subconscious biases and are not racists.  I think that's at the heart of some of the discussion here.  There are some on this board -- and I'd probably count myself among them -- who believe that she might have "had the capacity to snap out of the traumatic episode" if Henson had been white.  I do not believe that necessarily means she is a racist.

Quote from: StillAWarrior on October 21, 2015, 11:21:17 AM
There are some on this board -- and I'd probably count myself among them -- who believe that she might have "had the capacity to snap out of the traumatic episode" if Henson had been white.  I do not believe that means she is a racist.

Then what does that make her? Isn't treating or reacting to someone differently on the basis of their race pretty much the definition of racism?
She may not be intentionally so, and may never consciously/intentionally act in a racist manner (or at least that she's aware of), but i don't see how you can say she treats a black customer differently from a white customer, but that's not racist.

As a somewhat related side note, I suspect we're all a little racist to one degree or another, thanks to our societal/cultural upbringings. Studies like those using the implicit bias test have shown this over and over, even showing that many African-Americans are more likely to be biased in favor of whites.
It's what it is, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't all strive to overcome our biases, and it doesn't excuse those who fail/choose not to do so.

Quote from: Pakuni on October 21, 2015, 11:30:20 AM
Then what does that make her? Isn't treating or reacting to someone differently on the basis of their race pretty much the definition of racism?
She may not be intentionally so, and may never consciously/intentionally act in a racist manner (or at least that she's aware of), but i don't see how you can say she treats a black customer differently from a white customer, but that's not racist.

As a somewhat related side note, I suspect we're all a little racist to one degree or another, thanks to our societal/cultural upbringings. Studies like those using the implicit bias test have shown this over and over, even showing that many African-Americans are more likely to be biased in favor of whites.
It's what it is, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't all strive to overcome our biases, and it doesn't excuse those who fail/choose not to do so.

That's a fair question.  I guess I'm arguing semantics, to a certain extent.  My point is that what she felt -- fear -- is not necessarily racist.  However, treating him differently is.  I was trying to draw that distinction -- probably not very well.  We should all try to overcome our biases.

Quote from: Pakuni on October 21, 2015, 11:30:20 AM

As a somewhat related side note, I suspect we're all a little racist to one degree or another, thanks to our societal/cultural upbringings. Studies like those using the implicit bias test have shown this over and over, even showing that many African-Americans are more likely to be biased in favor of whites.
It's what it is, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't all strive to overcome our biases, and it doesn't excuse those who fail/choose not to do so.

Exactly.  Well stated. 

Quote from: warriorchick on October 21, 2015, 10:47:02 AM
Yeah, not in front of MU administration I am not...

Although I was tempted to say, "Hmmm...maybe she could study at any point between 8:50 a.m. and 6:00 p.m.?  I don't know; sounds like that requires more time management skills than your kid obviously has..."

These are amazing and need to be their own thread, unless you're worried about being outed and kicked off the parent board. Then they probably shouldn't be their own thread.

Quote from: source? on October 21, 2015, 10:03:57 AM
All the cool kids are doing adderall these days.

It's not just for MLB pitchers anymore.

Quote from: Pakuni on October 21, 2015, 11:30:20 AM
Then what does that make her? Isn't treating or reacting to someone differently on the basis of their race pretty much the definition of racism?
She may not be intentionally so, and may never consciously/intentionally act in a racist manner (or at least that she's aware of), but i don't see how you can say she treats a black customer differently from a white customer, but that's not racist.

As a somewhat related side note, I suspect we're all a little racist to one degree or another, thanks to our societal/cultural upbringings. Studies like those using the implicit bias test have shown this over and over, even showing that many African-Americans are more likely to be biased in favor of whites.
It's what it is, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't all strive to overcome our biases, and it doesn't excuse those who fail/choose not to do so.

I will have to see if I can find it on the internet somewhere, but I read an interview of Jesse Jackson maybe (5-10 years ago) where he admitted that even he gets nervous  if he is walking alone on a street and notices that there is a group of young black males walking behind him.

Edited:  Found the quote.  It was on this page, but unfortunately, the link to the original U.S. News article no longer works.

"There is nothing more painful to me ... than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery, then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved."

http://theracecardproject.com/jesse-jackson-fears-black-youths-racism-2/

Quote from: warriorchick on October 21, 2015, 10:42:01 AM


I don't know....I bet you look a lot like one of those Canadians that are clearly up to no good....

(http://i.imgur.com/pLyPkh5.jpg)

Quote from: warriorchick on October 21, 2015, 08:01:29 AM
Okay, if only to distract people and keep this thread from turning ugly.

Here is the most recent one:  A woman complained that this semester, her daughter had 8:00 classes every morning and and also, some evening classes. "At this point, I had to step in. How is she supposed to find time to study with a schedule like that?"

.... Is her daughter a vampire and unable to study between 9am and 5pm?

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 20, 2015, 04:10:52 PM
  Be frightened and ask for the police to stay a while longer; racist.  Not to mention, I'm gonna guess my analysis of this episode have given me that title as well.

Perhaps the store would benefit from hiring onsite security guards if it's so bad employees are afraid to come out of the back room

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 21, 2015, 10:16:32 AM

Because IMO it isn't a "plausible reason."

There is absolutely NO reason that I can think of why this would be classified as a "traumatic experience" that they would need a police presence. 

Can't tell if your kidding or trolling at this point.   Thinking you are being robbed, locking yourself in a back room is plausibly a traumatic experience, full stop.  If you can't admit that's plausible, there's simply a point where you've gone from reasonably debating a topic, to not, which is unfortunate.
 

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 21, 2015, 10:16:32 AM
Right.  The black guys really don't know when it is racism.  It is only racism when the white guys reasonable people, after analysis, can't come up with a better explanation.

(Partially) FIFY.  This case is a great example of snap judgments.  Read comments from the various media outlets .. 95%+ of posters have absolutely no idea what happened Friday-Monday that explains the call to police.

Fortunately, through analysis and debate, we've dispensed with the false narrative, and now can focus on one sentence in the police report: a frightened employee asking the cops to stay a while longer.    Progress!

Quote from: Pakuni on October 21, 2015, 11:30:20 AM
Then what does that make her? Isn't treating or reacting to someone differently on the basis of their race pretty much the definition of racism?
She may not be intentionally so, and may never consciously/intentionally act in a racist manner (or at least that she's aware of), but i don't see how you can say she treats a black customer differently from a white customer, but that's not racist.

As a somewhat related side note, I suspect we're all a little racist to one degree or another, thanks to our societal/cultural upbringings. Studies like those using the implicit bias test have shown this over and over, even showing that many African-Americans are more likely to be biased in favor of whites.
It's what it is, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't all strive to overcome our biases, and it doesn't excuse those who fail/choose not to do so.

This is where I think we done ourselves a disservice in the use of language.  I completely agree on the bias statement(there was a great episode on this from Morgan Freeman's Through the Wormhole) but just because one is biased in a situation doesn't make them racist.  The brain is a bias engine, it literally takes tons of data and boils it down to a series of assumptions/biases so that it can make decisions and execute actions.  The sales people were acting on biases, but we can't say whether that bias was based on race or some other experience. 

How do we know she would have treated a white customer differently.  If all of the details were the exact same but it was Ryan Braun or Andrew Bogut not John Henson does it all go down the same way?  If yes, she has bias but not a racial one(unless she's racist and anti-semtic).  If she treats them different than she has a racial bias in this situation.  If she treats all african americans in a biased manner regardless of context than she is indeed racist.  One can be racially biased in an individual situation without out being a racist IMO.

Thoughts?

... To another comment about racism and profiling being common .. University of Washington did a study .. turns out, we're born with a race preference.  I imagine no one is shocked.

http://time.com/67092/baby-racists-survival-strategy/

the school's racial make-up was something like 20% caucasian, the rest hispanic and african american.  the principal didn't get the results she wanted or thought would be appropriate.??  i heard that after bill oreilly brought it up, she had a change of heart-a teaching moment?  so, is this racist?  just wondering...

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/10/20/principal-holds-up-student-election-results-because-winners-not-diverse-enough.html

Quote from: mu03eng on October 21, 2015, 01:41:30 PM
If she treats all african americans in a biased manner regardless of context than she is indeed racist.  One can be racially biased in an individual situation without out being a racist IMO.

Thoughts?

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point above (which is entirely possible), but it seems as if you're suggesting that in order to be racist, one must be biased (or act in a biased manner) against all members of that race in every situation.
That's a pretty tall order. Under those circumstances, only the most virulent of bigots would qualify.
For example, IMO, Donald Sterling is racist as f---. Yet he donated millions to civil rights causes over the years, so clearly he did not show his bias in all situations.
Am I getting you wrong here?

But ultimately, I don't know if these employees are racist or not.  After all, I don't know these people, much less understand their beliefs. But I am comfortable believing their actions on that particular day were racist.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 21, 2015, 07:33:21 AM

I think you need to look up the term racial profiling because it is NEVER appropriate.  Racial profiling means using someone's race as the sole reason to suspect someone of a crime, etc.  It doesn't mean that if someone matches the description of a criminal or terrorist that race can't be part of that description.

I will just say this.  My brother is a retired cop in Bridgeport, which is the biggest cioty in CT and a very high-crime city.  Whenever a cop in Bridgeport saw a white guy in a nice car in Father Panik Village, it was a sure bet (99%) that he was there buying drugs.  The other 1% were very lost.  You stop that guy on his way out, and you make a drug bust every time.  Is that racial profiling or good police work?

Quote from: CTWarrior on October 21, 2015, 02:54:30 PM
I will just say this.  My brother is a retired cop in Bridgeport, which is the biggest cioty in CT and a very high-crime city.  Whenever a cop in Bridgeport saw a white guy in a nice car in Father Panik Village, it was a sure bet (99%) that he was there buying drugs.  The other 1% were very lost.  You stop that guy on his way out, and you make a drug bust every time.  Is that racial profiling or good police work?

Different take on it, but why waste time on guys buying drugs? Has about as much effect on the drug trade as arresting johns has on the hooker trade.

Quote from: CTWarrior on October 21, 2015, 02:54:30 PM
I will just say this.  My brother is a retired cop in Bridgeport, which is the biggest cioty in CT and a very high-crime city.  Whenever a cop in Bridgeport saw a white guy in a nice car in Father Panik Village, it was a sure bet (99%) that he was there buying drugs.  The other 1% were very lost.  You stop that guy on his way out, and you make a drug bust every time.  Is that racial profiling or good police work?

It's very likely unlawful (i.e. doesn't meet the probable cause standard) to pull someone over just for driving a nice car in a particular neighborhood while being of a certain race.
So the question in itself is sort of moot.

Quote from: brandx on October 21, 2015, 03:01:20 PM
Different take on it, but why waste time on guys buying drugs? Has about as much effect on the drug trade as arresting johns has on the hooker trade.

How about to discourage customers from going there and cutting off an avenue of sale?  Or because often they will tell you where they got it to avoid prosecution?  Anybody who was not there buying drugs would appreciate a police visit to help them get out of there, too.

Quote from: Pakuni on October 21, 2015, 03:06:28 PM
It's very likely unlawful (i.e. doesn't meet the probable cause standard) to pull someone over just for driving a nice car in a particular neighborhood while being of a certain race.
So the question in itself is sort of moot.

Yeah, that particular place has been torn down, but they can't do stuff like that anymore.

Quote from: brandx on October 21, 2015, 03:01:20 PM
Different take on it, but why waste time on guys buying drugs? Has about as much effect on the drug trade as arresting johns has on the hooker trade.

many reasons to arrest guys buying drugs:  it is against the law to buy/use drugs, it might get the person into treatment,  said person buying the drugs might be breaking the law in other areas-theft, abuse, etc..., the drug dealer loses customers-do you realize how much violence surrounds the drug trade?  if not arresting drug buyers, why have any laws re: the drug culture?  where do we start/stop with enforcing the law?  when ny city enforced the laws under "broken windows" model, all crime went down dramatically

Quote from: Pakuni on October 21, 2015, 02:29:06 PM
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point above (which is entirely possible), but it seems as if you're suggesting that in order to be racist, one must be biased (or act in a biased manner) against all members of that race in every situation.
That's a pretty tall order. Under those circumstances, only the most virulent of bigots would qualify.
For example, IMO, Donald Sterling is racist as f---. Yet he donated millions to civil rights causes over the years, so clearly he did not show his bias in all situations.
Am I getting you wrong here?

But ultimately, I don't know if these employees are racist or not.  After all, I don't know these people, much less understand their beliefs. But I am comfortable believing their actions on that particular day were racist.

I don't think it's all or every, but there should be a track record certainly of a racial bias for someone to be racist.  You can certainly act racist based an event.

I don't understand the Sterling example, he seemingly displays racist tendencies in everything he does, just because he gives money to civil rights organizations doesn't mean he's not biased all the time.  Hell, he could be giving money because he's trying to prevent people from recognizing his racism.

Maybe I'm being semantical, but if you label someone a racist because of a single action that is a very tough burden to put on someone.  Additionally, if you set the bar at that level(never taking an action that can be interpreted as racist) that's where people will disengage.  Everything I've ever been trained on with diversity and inclusion is about a two street between sender and receiver, receiver needs to understand there is context and bias in a sender as the sender has to understand there is context and bias in the way the receiver receives it.

Given all the facts and information, I agree the primary interpretation of the employee's action is a racist one. 

Now, if we find out the employee worked at a store previously where a customer was vetted by the police and then turned around and robbed the place....context is different(this is a ridiculous stretch, just making an example) and she is biased but not necessarily racially.

So for the people here that label this incident as racist, if anyone shops there moving forward...are they racists?  Are they supporting a racist entity?

Quote from: Benny B on October 21, 2015, 09:30:50 AM
On Thursday, I drove through a Border Patrol checkpoint on I-8 in east San Diego County.  I can wholeheartedly assure you that they were racially profiling EVERYONE.  Fortunately, I don't look like an illegal immigrant, so we got the polite hand that waved us through.

Here's the kicker... the Border Patrol agent who was deciding who to wave through and who to direct to the "examination station" was clearly of Latino ancestry.

Yup....it's called common sense policing.  Others want to make it racial as in a bad thing, when it's about not wasting time searching 90 year old grandmas.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 21, 2015, 09:34:03 AM
I've only been through the border once .. I think it was 1975 and I was 6 years old on a tourist bus trip to Tijuana.

I distinctly remember everyone stepping off the return bus and being instructed to say "I am a citizen of the United States of America" to the patrol guy.

I thought for sure I was going to ef it up and not get back in!   :P

Not today's crack border patrol.  I've been through the I8 version that Benny talks of many times....usually it isn't even a slow roll but cruising at about 45 mph.  Now, on the actual border, it's a little different, but not much.  We do a lot of winky winky these days.  Can't be making enemies you know.

So, a lotta pit bulls are known to be fine, upstandin' dogs. Upon commin' across a random pit bull ya gotta be on your guard until proven outta wise, hey?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 21, 2015, 11:28:05 PM
Not today's crack border patrol.  I've been through the I8 version that Benny talks of many times....usually it isn't even a slow roll but cruising at about 45 mph.  Now, on the actual border, it's a little different, but not much.  We do a lot of winky winky these days.  Can't be making enemies you know.

It was a slow roll, but we weren't going more than 5 mph once we were in line... they were out in full force last Thursday.  I don't know if it's an indicator of a typical day, but I counted no fewer than four helicopters in a 30 minute period on that stretch.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 21, 2015, 10:07:11 PM
So for the people here that label this incident as racist, if anyone shops there moving forward...are they racists?  Are they supporting a racist entity?

Not if the owner fires the employees involved.

Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 22, 2015, 07:37:58 AM
So, a lotta pit bulls are known to be fine, upstandin' dogs. Upon commin' across a random pit bull ya gotta be on your guard until proven outta wise, hey?

(http://www.npr.org/assets/news/2014/05/whYfFDU.gif)

Quote from: Benny B on October 22, 2015, 08:30:21 AM
It was a slow roll, but we weren't going more than 5 mph once we were in line... they were out in full force last Thursday.  I don't know if it's an indicator of a typical day, but I counted no fewer than four helicopters in a 30 minute period on that stretch.

That's typically not the case, though usually I'm down there for the weekend when they want traffic to keep rolling.

Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 22, 2015, 09:04:56 AM
Not if the owner fires the employees involved.

Has this happened?

What would be the grounds for firing?

Quote from: Pakuni on October 22, 2015, 09:15:01 AM
(http://www.npr.org/assets/news/2014/05/whYfFDU.gif)

I am sure 4Never was just giving me an excuse to post this video.  I believe Frankie here is a pit bull.   ;D :

https://www.youtube.com/v/Wk0ZFbGV2Jc

It may have been said before, but I take it the owner isn't a Bucks (or NBA) fan.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 22, 2015, 09:35:58 AM
Has this happened?

What would be the grounds for firing?

It's an at will employment state. The employee's actions alienated customers, though, and I'd imagine that customer service is a part of their core responsibilities.

Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 22, 2015, 05:33:34 PM
It's an at will employment state. The employee's actions alienated customers, though, and I'd imagine that customer service is a part of their core responsibilities.

Yeah, Chicos, it's not California, where you basically can't fire anyone for any reason.

Chicos asks the proper question, though. 

The employees did a few actions out of the usual practice of being sales people:

1. They were instructed by police to call the police if the red Tahoe showed up.  One would surmise the owner was on-board with this directive.  Tahoe shows up, they followed this directive.

2. The employees retreated and locked themselves in the back room fearing robbery.  This is also likely what the owner would want them to do, if they feared a robbery.   Let the place be robbed, but keep yourself safe.

3. Of interest, after this experience, an employee was in a state of mind to request that the police stay a bit longer while Henson shopped.   This is as close to anything that the owner could be unhappy with, as it opened the episode up to potentially being a race based issue.

So .. do you fire an employee who asks the police to stay?  Never going to happen unless someone needs to be sacrificed.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 22, 2015, 09:01:30 PM


So .. do you fire an employee who asks the police to stay?  Never going to happen unless someone needs to be sacrificed.

Or maybe you fire an employee who sullies your business' name and reputation on a national level, and drives off at least one customer - and perhaps several customers - willing to spend thousands at your establishment.
At the very best, this was an atrocious example of customer service.

I don't care one way or the other what happens to this employee (or the business for that matter), but you really are minimizing the negative perception this has caused for this business.

Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 22, 2015, 05:33:34 PM
It's an at will employment state. The employee's actions alienated customers, though, and I'd imagine that customer service is a part of their core responsibilities.

Were they fired? I don't know, I'm asking.

Sounds to me like the acted in the directions they were asked to do.  If they were fired, I would suspect an interesting lawsuit would be filed.

Eleven posts in the thread and our poster is still unable to say Henson did nothing wrong. But, post after post defending the business.


Character revealed.

Quote from: Pakuni on October 22, 2015, 10:46:15 PM
I don't care one way or the other what happens to this employee (or the business for that matter), but you really are minimizing the negative perception this has caused for this business.

That this has caused a tremendously disruptive negative view of the business is an understatement.

The owner himself would have done items #1 and #2, zero doubt.   Maybe 3 too, we'll never know.  It's tough to fire employees for taking actions that you would likely take, trying to protect your store.   Not unless you want to sacrifice someone for the sake of appeasing the masses .. (Which could be your point.)

FYI, heard some audio of the 911 calls this morning on the news.....I think we can remove the nervous grandma from the barrel of excuses.  If the woman on the call was older than 45 I'd be shocked.

I'd tend to agree.

The 911 call should put to rest any notion that they were being racially profiled out on the street. 

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 23, 2015, 10:01:15 AM
I'd tend to agree.

The 911 call should put to rest any notion that they were being racially profiled out on the street.

i would agree, the caller seemed hesitant to even mention race. when she finally did, it came out like she was uncomfortable revealing it.  i can just imagine how a racist would have sounded here

Quote from: warriorchick on October 22, 2015, 05:52:51 PM
Yeah, Chicos, it's not California, where you basically can't fire anyone for any reason.

Private sector here you can....public sector, LOL...that's a different story.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 23, 2015, 10:01:15 AM
I'd tend to agree.

The 911 call should put to rest any notion that they were being racially profiled out on the street.

Unfortunately it won't....there's an agenda at play with this stuff.   Sad.  Toxic.   But hey, it works...say the R word and people just run to it to support the cause, even if it isn't there.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 23, 2015, 08:27:05 PM
Unfortunately it won't....there's an agenda at play with this stuff.   Sad.  Toxic.   But hey, it works...say the R word and people just run to it to support the cause, even if it isn't there.

Totally correct.  .. They did an segment on the 911 tapes on talk radio 620 today, but neglected to play the first 14 seconds which exonerated the employee (nearly her first words were "the police told us if the car came back, we're supposed to call again") .. instead the host played other clips that were out of context and tried to show she was profiling.   

This is what I mean by toxic, bring race into everything.

So glad these two sportscasters destroyed this line of thinking for once.


http://newsbusters.org/blogs/culture/bruce-bookter/2015/10/23/espn-race-huckster-gets-slammed-perfectly-local-dc-sports

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 23, 2015, 10:01:15 AM
I'd tend to agree.

The 911 call should put to rest any notion that they were being racially profiled out on the street. 

Hold on.  Here is a news report on the incident.

http://www.tmj4.com/news/local-news/911-calls-released-from-schwanke-kasten-jewelers-alleged-profiling-incident-with-john-henson

If the manager stated that four black men exited the vehicle and "that is not our normal clientele," how is that not racial profiling???   And it still doesn't answer the question about why they asked the officer to stick around while Henson shopped.

You have your head in the sand.

Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 23, 2015, 07:09:38 PM
i would agree, the caller seemed hesitant to even mention race. when she finally did, it came out like she was uncomfortable revealing it.  i can just imagine how a racist would have sounded here

Just an observation but whenever white people in the US describe a black person they always lower their volume when they say "black."

This is often accompanied by a furtive look over the shoulder...I presume to ascertain whether there are any black people around.

I have seen this from Americans from every part of this country in every part of this country.

One may draw whatever conclusion one wishes about this behavior but it is a fact. I have my thoughts and I think it reflects the inherent fear, concern, distrust, and dislike of blacks among many whites. Are most people overt racists? No. Social norms prevent that. But the discomfort with blacks is certainly there.

Lester Maddox and an unreconstructed George Wallace or Strom Thurmond will not lower their volume nor will they look over their shoulder when they say "black" (that is if they actually use that descriptive...)

The women in the jewelry are the sort who lower their voice whenever they say "black." Are they overtly racist? No. Do they practice a subtle, insidious form of prejudice? Most certainly.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 24, 2015, 12:45:09 AM
This is what I mean by toxic, bring race into everything.

So glad these two sportscasters destroyed this line of thinking for once.


http://newsbusters.org/blogs/culture/bruce-bookter/2015/10/23/espn-race-huckster-gets-slammed-perfectly-local-dc-sports

Thank you for bringing in a totally unrelated article proving that whites are good and blacks are not. As regular as rain.

Quote from: keefe on October 24, 2015, 01:34:38 PM
Just an observation but whenever white people in the US describe a black person they always lower their volume when they say "black."

This is often accompanied by a furtive look over the shoulder...I presume to ascertain whether there are any black people around.

I have seen this from Americans from every part of this country in every part of this country.

One may draw whatever conclusion one wishes about this behavior but it is a fact. I have my thoughts and I think it reflects the inherent fear, concern, distrust, and dislike of blacks among many whites. Are most people overt racists? No. Social norms prevent that. But the discomfort with blacks is certainly there.

Lester Maddox and an unreconstructed George Wallace or Strom Thurmond will not lower their volume nor will they look over their shoulder when they say "black" (that is if they actually use that descriptive...)

The women in the jewelry are the sort who lower their voice whenever they say "black." Are they overtly racist? No. Do they practice a subtle, insidious form of prejudice? Most certainly.

I could not disagree with you more on part of what you are saying...that it is caused by dislike.  When I see people lower their voice, it is because they are so damn sensitive of being called racist or saying the wrong thing.....they are on sensitivity overdrive.  At least that is part of it.

Are there some people that dislike?  Of course, and vice versa.  But there are many others that are just caught in the political correctness vortex and have no idea if they are even allowed to say Black, African American, etc, because God forbid someone somewhere is going to be outraged. 

Enjoy

https://youtube.com/v/koqiEpSGkBQ

https://youtube.com/v/6yMOJ043H-A

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 24, 2015, 04:16:50 PM
I could not disagree with you more on part of what you are saying...that it is caused by dislike.  When I see people lower their voice, it is because they are so damn sensitive of being called racist or saying the wrong thing.....they are on sensitivity overdrive.  At least that is part of it.

Are there some people that dislike?  Of course, and vice versa.  But there are many others that are just caught in the political correctness vortex and have no idea if they are even allowed to say Black, African American, etc, because God forbid someone somewhere is going to be outraged. 

Enjoy

what makes those so GOSH-darned funny is that they are so true.  plus, the chick(oops-girl, gal, definitely not broad or tootsie, woman, female... ;)) on the politically "incorrect" side is pretty hot-heyna?

https://youtube.com/v/koqiEpSGkBQ

https://youtube.com/v/6yMOJ043H-A

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 24, 2015, 01:18:58 PM
Hold on.  Here is a news report on the incident.

http://www.tmj4.com/news/local-news/911-calls-released-from-schwanke-kasten-jewelers-alleged-profiling-incident-with-john-henson

If the manager stated that four black men exited the vehicle and "that is not our normal clientele," how is that not racial profiling???   And it still doesn't answer the question about why they asked the officer to stick around while Henson shopped.

You have your head in the sand.

Which do you believe?  A) They shouldn't even know their customers' demographics or B) That they can know the demographics, but don't dare share it with investigating police?

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 25, 2015, 09:10:15 AM
Which do you believe?  A) They shouldn't even know their customers' demographics or B) That they can know the demographics, but don't dare share it with investigating police?

B, but they have to whisper it    ?-(

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 25, 2015, 09:10:15 AM
Which do you believe?  A) They shouldn't even know their customers' demographics or B) That they can know the demographics, but don't dare share it with investigating police?

How about C) Someone "not being their normal clientele" doesn't by default make them a felon about to do you harm.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 24, 2015, 04:16:50 PM
I could not disagree with you more on part of what you are saying...that it is caused by dislike.  When I see people lower their voice, it is because they are so damn sensitive of being called racist or saying the wrong thing.....they are on sensitivity overdrive.  At least that is part of it.

Are there some people that dislike?  Of course, and vice versa.  But there are many others that are just caught in the political correctness vortex and have no idea if they are even allowed to say Black, African American, etc, because God forbid someone somewhere is going to be outraged. 

We white people have it so tough in this country.

Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2015, 09:13:48 AM
How about C) Someone "not being their normal clientele" doesn't make them a felon about to do you harm.

In a utopian world that's great, but when the cops put out a warning identifying recent robberies tied to a specific car, etc....well guess what, Utopia doesn't exist except for someone playing MMQB.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 25, 2015, 09:16:55 AM
In a utopian world that's great, but when the cops put out a warning identifying recent robberies tied to a specific car, etc....well guess what, Utopia doesn't exist except for someone playing MMQB.

Except that's not what happened.

An equally good look for Milwaukee is the murder rate this year.  Suppose no one wants to chat about this heyyna?

Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2015, 09:16:47 AM
We white people have it so tough in this country.

The go to silliest answer in the book.  Do they issue this to liberals as part of the kit? 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 25, 2015, 09:24:18 AM
The go to silliest answer in the book.  Do they issue this to liberals as part of the kit?

(http://media0.giphy.com/media/Rhhr8D5mKSX7O/giphy.gif)

I'm just enamored with your "white people have it so bad" broad statement.  Imagine someone here making a broad statement about another ethnic group or race and how you would come down on them.

Yes, all whites are the same, they all have the same education, social, economic structure, etc.   Breathtaking by you....seriously.

Man topper, you love to come up with excuses for why a business in your town engages in despicable behavior.

So the jewelry store gets some calls about their closing time ("they didn't sound like legitimate customers") then an SUV with dealer plates shows up with four black men ("not their usual clientele"), and they lock the doors.  If I call the store asking about their hours, I probably would be given the right?  I'm sure I sound like a "legitimate customer."  Would they have locked the doors had four white men in suits stepped out of the SUV?  That is their "usual clientele" right?

They *were* legitimate customers, and they were going to be their *clientele.*  But even after that was clearly noted, the workers wanted the police to stick around why they looked at the watches.

How is that *not* racial profiling?  I mean...holy crap.  How can we ever get anywhere with racial issues when people like you seemingly make every excuse for the behavior.

Another really good look for Milwaukee is the awesome MPS system and the graduation rates among students...worst in the country by race. 

If some of you haven't figured out this is all intertwined, I can't help you.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 25, 2015, 09:39:08 AM
Another really good look for Milwaukee is the awesome MPS system and the graduation rates among students...worst in the country by race. 

If some of you haven't figured out this is all intertwined, I can't help you.

Shift goalposts.  Build strawmen.

This is what you do when you are *clearly* wrong about the topic at hand.  So much intellectual dishonesty. 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 25, 2015, 09:36:03 AM
I'm just enamored with your "white people have it so bad" broad statement.  Imagine someone here making a broad statement about another ethnic group or race and how you would come down on them.

Yes, all whites are the same, they all have the same education, social, economic structure, etc.   Breathtaking by you....seriously.

Yes, that's exactly what I wrote.

Wait ... no, it isn't. It's nowhere remotely close to what I wrote.
What I wrote, Chico's, was a simple response to mock you and your never-ending quest to portray yourself and those like you (i.e. white, male, Christian, conservative and well off) as victims.
Victims of the media.
Victims of political correctness.
Victims of liberals.
Victims of the president.
Victims of unions.
Victims of minorities.
Victims of pretty much anyone who doesn't think or look just like you.

For guy who loves little more than to condescendlngly preach the "life is tough" mantra when it comes to others' misfortunes, you sure do whine a lot about how bad you've got it.
I mean, here we were having a discussion of racial profiling, and you think the real victims here are the white people who don't know whether they should be saying "black" or "African-American" and, why oh why, can't we go back to simpler time if your beloved 1950s when you could just call them "coloreds."
Poor, poor you.

"Man, Sultan, you love to come up with excuses" as to why this is evil racial profiling, and not just a business understanding the risks of their business to theft, have been told by police to call, etc, etc.

They let Henson in before.  They didn't this time because of the circumstances and police advice.  The end.

How can we come together about race?  By having honest cases of racism which bear scrutiny, which we wholeheartedly agree exist.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 25, 2015, 11:20:28 AM
"Man, Sultan, you love to come up with excuses" as to why this is evil racial profiling, and not just a business understanding the risks of their business to theft, have been told by police to call, etc, etc.

They were told by the police to call *if* people "who didn't sound like legitimate customers" and weren't "their usual clientele" returned.  If you can't see what they meant by those phrases...well...that's sad.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 25, 2015, 11:25:21 AM

They were told by the police to call *if* people "who didn't sound like legitimate customers" and weren't "their usual clientele" returned.  If you can't see what they meant by those phrases...well...that's sad.

The police report says, quote: "He advised the employee that if the vehicle came back to call the station."   

It fails to mention all that "*if*" stuff you've written as fact (no less.)

Car showed up, so they called the station as directed.   

I'm quoting how they described the occupants of the car during the initial 911 call. 

That's groovy, except you said 'They were told by the police to call *if* people "who didn't sound like legitimate customers" and weren't "their usual clientele" returned. '

The police did no such thing, it did not happen.

This did:  "He advised the employee that if the vehicle came back to call the station."   

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on October 26, 2015, 08:35:51 AM
That's groovy, except you said 'They were told by the police to call *if* people "who didn't sound like legitimate customers" and weren't "their usual clientele" returned. '

The police did no such thing, it did not happen.

This did:  "He advised the employee that if the vehicle came back to call the station."   

Ugh.  You are correct.  That is what the Police said.

But let's go through this again:

**On Friday, employees called the police saying they were receiving phone calls "people who didn't sound like legitimate customers," so they closed early.

**Henson showed up in the SUV, the police called in the plates and informed the manager that four black men exited the vehicle, to which the manager replied "that is not our normal clientele."

**The Police told them to call if the vehicle showed up again.

**When the vehicle showed up again, they called the Police and closed the store.

**When the police showed up, they figured out there was no harm.  Henson was not a criminal.  He was a legitimate customer

**Despite this, the store employees asked the police to stick around while Henson and his friends looked at the watches.  They refused.

So you are still seriously claiming that no racial profiling occurred here?  Not when the employees described the phone calls as from "not legitimate customers?"  When the manager said that black men where not "their usual clientele?"  Not when they asked the police to stick around even though it was established that there was no threat to the store?

It simply boggles my mind that someone can look at this incident and claim that no racial bias or profiling existed here.

This boils down to whether or not one would choose to patronize this business. Personally, I would never give them a penny. Because in my view they practice a very ugly, pernicious form of racism that is far harder to eradicate. The attitude of these people is similar to cockroaches at night: they come out under the cover of darkness but when the harsh light of scrutiny comes on they scatter back into their dank, moldering dens where it is safe to express distaste for the unfortunately pigmented.

Topper knows the owner and attests to his graciousness. But he has never addressed the man's attitude on race.

Sultan lays out the case for racial bias. I think Sultan carries the day.

For me, I will not patronize this shop but it was unlikely I ever would have - even if I were to live in that part of the world. So I hope others will eliminate them from consideration when it comes time to purchase a $10,000 time piece.

The Politics board being allowed on MUScoop is starting to leak onto the other boards. It sucks.

Quote from: keefe on October 26, 2015, 10:55:15 AM
This boils down to whether or not one would choose to patronize this business. Personally, I would never give them a penny. Because in my view they practice a very ugly, pernicious form of racism that is far harder to eradicate. The attitude of these people is similar to cockroaches at night: they come out under the cover of darkness but when the harsh light of scrutiny comes on they scatter back into their dank, moldering dens where it is safe to express distaste for the unfortunately pigmented.

Topper knows the owner and attests to his graciousness. But he has never addressed the man's attitude on race.

Sultan lays out the case for racial bias. I think Sultan carries the day.

For me, I will not patronize this shop but it was unlikely I ever would have - even if I were to live in that part of the world. So I hope others will eliminate them from consideration when it comes time to purchase a $10,000 time piece.

If a gold Rolex is 10Gs in Washin'ton, send me 5 of them. I'll pm my AmEx info, hey? Feel free to get one, on me too, for your trouble, Crash.

Just out of curiosity... are mathematicians and statisticians considered racist, i.e. if one of these folks says, statistically, the man entering your jewelry store in Shorewood is more likely to be a criminal if he is black than if he were white or Asian, is that racist (presuming it's true)?

If your insurance company determines that the best course of action to protect yourself - from an actuarial standpoint - is to do 'A' if 'B' happens, is it a good idea to listen to what they say or should retail-level employees be trusted with the decision to exercise their own discretion?

In other words, consider the profile of your typical jewelry store employee here... we're not dealing with Ivy League graduates here.  They've probably been instructed ad nauseum on how to react in particular situations given that they may not be in an entirely rationale state when such a situation occurs.

Unless we want to start making everyone own up to his/her behavior.

Quote from: Benny B on October 26, 2015, 12:22:12 PM
Just out of curiosity... are mathematicians and statisticians considered racist, i.e. if one of these folks says, statistically, the man entering your jewelry store in Shorewood is more likely to be a criminal if he is black than if he were white or Asian, is that racist (presuming it's true)?

Presuming that's true, then the mathematicians aren't racist.  They are simply citing stats.  But then using those stats to determine how to treat an individual *is* racial profiling by definition.  John Henson is an individual guy.  He shouldn't be grouped in with other individuals because of his race either positively or negatively. 

Quote from: Benny B on October 26, 2015, 12:22:12 PM
In other words, consider the profile of your typical jewelry store employee here... we're not dealing with Ivy League graduates here.  They've probably been instructed ad nauseum on how to react in particular situations given that they may not be in an entirely rationale state when such a situation occurs.

I really don't think the store instructs its employees to react a certain way if "their usual clientele" shows up.  If they do, then the problem is much worse than I think it is.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 26, 2015, 08:53:40 AM

Ugh.  You are correct.  That is what the Police said.

But let's go through this again:

**On Friday, employees called the police saying they were receiving phone calls "people who didn't sound like legitimate customers," so they closed early.

**Henson showed up in the SUV, the police called in the plates and informed the manager that four black men exited the vehicle, to which the manager replied "that is not our normal clientele."

**The Police told them to call if the vehicle showed up again.

**When the vehicle showed up again, they called the Police and closed the store.

**When the police showed up, they figured out there was no harm.  Henson was not a criminal.  He was a legitimate customer

**Despite this, the store employees asked the police to stick around while Henson and his friends looked at the watches.  They refused.

So you are still seriously claiming that no racial profiling occurred here?  Not when the employees described the phone calls as from "not legitimate customers?"  When the manager said that black men where not "their usual clientele?"  Not when they asked the police to stick around even though it was established that there was no threat to the store?

It simply boggles my mind that someone can look at this incident and claim that no racial bias or profiling existed here.

I gave up on this thread long ago as I've provided my 2 cents and I agree completely with you Sultan.  But you may have given me a new bit of info I wasn't aware of.  Has it been established (or suggested) that the Friday red Tahoe visit at 5pm was by Henson and his friends and that they came back Monday?

Quote from: jsglow on October 26, 2015, 12:43:32 PM
I gave up on this thread long ago as I've provided my 2 cents and I agree completely with you Sultan.  But you may have given me a new bit of info I wasn't aware of.  Has it been established (or suggested) that the Friday red Tahoe visit at 5pm was by Henson and his friends and that they came back Monday?

Yes. Here is the newscast.

http://www.tmj4.com/news/local-news/911-calls-released-from-schwanke-kasten-jewelers-alleged-profiling-incident-with-john-henson

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 25, 2015, 11:25:21 AM

They were told by the police to call *if* people "who didn't sound like legitimate customers" and weren't "their usual clientele" returned.  If you can't see what they meant by those phrases...well...that's sad.

I was reading the WTMJ article today and FWIW, unless I'm reading it wrong, the "usual clientele" comment came from the dealership manager

QuoteIn response, the store closed early that day. When Henson came by with friends the doors were already locked. An officer in an unmarked squad car ran the dealer plates on Henson's red SUV. They were from Kunes Country Ford-Lincoln, but a manager at the dealership could not determine who the car belonged to. The officer says he told the manager "four black males excited the vehicle."  To which the manager replied, "that's not our normal clientele."

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 26, 2015, 08:53:40 AM

Ugh.  You are correct.  That is what the Police said.

...

So you are still seriously claiming that no racial profiling occurred here?  Not when the employees described the phone calls as from "not legitimate customers?"  When the manager said that black men where not "their usual clientele?"  Not when they asked the police to stick around even though it was established that there was no threat to the store?

It simply boggles my mind that someone can look at this incident and claim that no racial bias or profiling existed here.

Do I think the store is aware of their customer demographics, including race?  Of course.

The mere awareness of race does not equal acting on race alone, which is what all the headlines say: Jeweler calls 911 on black NBA player.   That headline leaves out the many factors at work here, police calls, potentially stolen plates, police advice. 

Most importantly, we know that they previously buzzed Henson into the store without those factors.

Did "no racial bias ..exist here"?  Is that what we need to calculate here, zero or anything north = "racial profiling"?  That they are aware of the demographics of their customer base means it's north of zero, no one can disagree.

As you said, if mathematicians can cite statistics without being racist, can criminologists cite them too?  Or recommend actions based on them?  Would it be reasonable for a criminologist to say "There is an increased risk of crime when your business is visited by customers outside of your usual customer base"?

We both know that's entirely reasonable, but I'm sure you'll fight it on the basis that it's a slippery slope.  And truly, I couldn't entirely disagree. 

But somehow, people need to move and act in our world, and they do it by evaluating factors at their disposal.  We don't live in a world blind of race, and knowing that, we need to have some tolerance that racial factors are likely never zero.  So when you do plant the "racial profiling" flag, and when do you say "ok, here's 5 other factors and the behavior was reasonable."

Which is why I'd agree with you if there wasn't a potentially stolen Tahoe or police advice, etc.   If they just called 911 because a tall black dude rang the bell, that'd be intolerable. 

But that was not the case.

Quote from: CreightonWarrior on October 27, 2015, 08:44:45 AM
I was reading the WTMJ article today and FWIW, unless I'm reading it wrong, the "usual clientele" comment came from the dealership manager

I gotta say .. that quote's source is odd.  It wasn't in the police report, so where did it come from?  It's not like WTMJ interviewed Dixon or the officer, and they recited that.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 25, 2015, 09:40:58 AM

Shift goalposts.  Build strawmen.

This is what you do when you are *clearly* wrong about the topic at hand.  So much intellectual dishonesty.

How is this shifting the goalposts?  The topic is about a good look for Milwaukee.  There are all kinds of good looks for Milwaukee, I'm merely adding to them.

I could start 5 different threads if you wish and we could get into each one, but this notion that this incident itself is a "good look" for Milwaukee when the city has plenty of ills over the years is laughable.

Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2015, 09:57:52 AM
Yes, that's exactly what I wrote.

Wait ... no, it isn't. It's nowhere remotely close to what I wrote.

Yes, that's exactly what you wrote and meant....see, I can play this game too.    Clearly you meant that....if you're going to go half cocked on people and tell them what they are thinking inside their head, well we can do.  It's exactly what you said, exactly what you meant.   

Quote from: Michael Kenyon on October 20, 2015, 10:04:53 AM
so they closed the store early on Friday when Henson was just arriving after having confirmed via phone that they carried Rolex and would still be open when he got there?

Quote from: jsglow on October 20, 2015, 10:09:16 AM
No.  It doesn't seem that it was Henson at all last week.  I think that would have come out by now.

I was sort of joking when I posted that but after reading the link to the 911 calls it turns out that is exactly what happened. Henson must think poorly of their actions on both days. I would also blame the WFB cops that ran the plate on that Friday, why didn't they talk to Henson then?

Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 26, 2015, 11:18:18 AM


If a gold Rolex is 10Gs in Washin'ton, send me 5 of them. I'll pm my AmEx info, hey? Feel free to get one, on me too, for your trouble, Crash.

Folks gave me a stainless steel Rolex when I got my wings. But when it came to actual war fightin' I always took my Timex Iron Man. That damn thing went through 4 A Stans and 2 Iraqs and is still tickin'. Got it at the Hurlburt BX for about $50.

Send me Henson's contacts and I'll hook that young man up with a quality timepiece that will see him through many an NBA campaign.

Quote from: keefe on October 27, 2015, 10:43:10 AM
Folks gave me a stainless steel Rolex when I got my wings. But when it came to actual war fightin' I always took my Timex Iron Man. That damn thing went through 4 A Stans and 2 Iraqs and is still tickin'. Got it at the Hurlburt BX for about $50.

Send me Henson's contacts and I'll hook that young man up with a quality timepiece that will see him through many an NBA campaign.

you know the saying- it takes a beating and keeps on clicking-fortunately, like a few other things i can think of-heyna?   

The weird thing to me on the tape, and this is probably just me, was when they said to come to the front of the store she replied "why? I don't feel like it. Why should I have to come to the front?" If I were the cop I'd have responded with "ok b****. if you want to be rude, then handle your own business."

Quote from: rocket surgeon on October 27, 2015, 04:21:38 PM
you know the saying- it takes a beating and keeps on clicking-fortunately, like a few other things i can think of-heyna?

Personally, I prefer, "It takes a licking and still keeps ticking..."

Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2015, 09:57:52 AM
Yes, that's exactly what I wrote.

Wait ... no, it isn't. It's nowhere remotely close to what I wrote.

Quote from: Pakuni on October 25, 2015, 09:57:52 AMI mean, here we were having a discussion of racial profiling, and you think the real victims here are the white people who don't know whether they should be saying "black" or "African-American" and, why oh why, can't we go back to simpler time if your beloved 1950s when you could just call them "coloreds."

Ironic, since the beginning part of your post you get all bent because you didn't say something and then by the end of your post you do EXACTLY what you complained about.  Since I've never used that term or advocated for it.  Because I listen to my elders about a simpler time where you could leave the front door unlocked, people were civil toward one another, so on and so forth...that means I want EVERYTHING to be like the 1950's?  Nor am I saying the shop owners were the victims here, again the irony in your statement.  However, just because I don't knee jerk to say it is a racial bias incident that's how you categorize it. 

You're better than that, especially your 1950's comment.  I'll leave it at that.  Have a good one.

Quote from: keefe on October 27, 2015, 08:14:06 PM
Personally, I prefer, "It takes a licking and still keeps ticking..."

that's it!  don't know why i was thinking beating when it obviously didn't rhyme with ticking, but i knew it went something like that-bottom line, they are damn good sundials

Ya did John Cameron Swayze proud, ai na?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 27, 2015, 08:30:36 PM


Ironic, since the beginning part of your post you get all bent because you didn't say something and then by the end of your post you do EXACTLY what you complained about.  Since I've never used that term or advocated for it.  Because I listen to my elders about a simpler time where you could leave the front door unlocked, people were civil toward one another, so on and so forth...that means I want EVERYTHING to be like the 1950's? 

Chicos thinks "Happy Days" and "Leave it to Beaver" are documentaries.

Quote from: 4everwarriors on October 28, 2015, 06:50:36 AM
Ya did John Cameron Swayze proud, ai na?

Personally, I always preferred Suzy Chapstick. I always wondered why her lips were constantly chapped

Quote from: Pakuni on October 28, 2015, 09:42:23 AM
Chicos thinks "Happy Days" and "Leave it to Beaver" are documentaries.

TV shows...sitcoms, but the people that actually lived during the 1950's like my parents, god parents, grand parents, aunts, uncles, etc....they aren't a TV show.

Some historians have called the 1950's the greatest decade to live in America....also not a TV show.

To each their own.  Clearly you don't agree, so much so that you take the worst of that era and assign it to people that are focusing on the BEST of that era.  Pakuniesque

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 28, 2015, 11:32:32 PM
Some historians have called the 1950's the greatest decade to live in America....also not a TV show.

If you were a white male...which I imagine the majority of those historians are/were. 

Quote from: JWags85 on October 29, 2015, 09:29:03 AM
If you were a white male...which I imagine the majority of those historians are/were. 

...heterosexual, middle class....

Quote from: JWags85 on October 29, 2015, 09:29:03 AM
If you were a white male...which I imagine the majority of those historians are/were.

You can imagine all you wish, I don't know the answer to that.  However, I do know this

Crime lower  (murder rate below 4 per 100,000). 
Economy booming
Massive leap out of poverty
Unemployment less than 3%
Spending power...a blue collar worker could support his whole family on his job alone and live a great life
Freedom of movement, to own your own house, get out of the city
Optimism was off the charts....the highest recorded in the last 70 years.  Reagan's second half was the only comparable moment and that was a distant second
Etc, etc

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 31, 2015, 12:46:23 PM
You can imagine all you wish, I don't know the answer to that.  However, I do know this

Crime lower  (murder rate below 4 per 100,000). 
Economy booming
Massive leap out of poverty
Unemployment less than 3%
Spending power...a blue collar worker could support his whole family on his job alone and live a great life
Freedom of movement, to own your own house, get out of the city
Optimism was off the charts....the highest recorded in the last 70 years.  Reagan's second half was the only comparable moment and that was a distant second
Etc, etc

not good for gubmint-then came the "great society", jesse louis burns and ward got a little hard on the beaver-heyna?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 31, 2015, 12:46:23 PM
You can imagine all you wish, I don't know the answer to that.  However, I do know this

Crime lower  (murder rate below 4 per 100,000). 
Economy booming
Massive leap out of poverty
Unemployment less than 3%
Spending power...a blue collar worker could support his whole family on his job alone and live a great life
Freedom of movement, to own your own house, get out of the city
Optimism was off the charts....the highest recorded in the last 70 years.  Reagan's second half was the only comparable moment and that was a distant second
Etc, etc

Unfortunately, once the economy became "global" most of the jobs that helped spur most of the above list disappeared.

Quote from: jesmu84 on October 31, 2015, 02:25:58 PM
Unfortunately, once the economy became "global" most of the jobs that helped spur most of the above list disappeared.

Part of it, but let's not forget cradle to grave promises and services as well.  Isn't it amazing that in the 1950's with optimism through the roof, arguably the greatest decade to live in the US, people also knew that gov't wasn't there to bail them out, we didn't have massive social programs (some, but not to the extent today), people were largely self sufficient.

Today, we start crying if we can't get 3 bars on our phone and the ice maker isn't cranking out the cubes properly...if we can't get our gov't phone, and pay for our birth control....etc, etc. 

It's a different world, for sure.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 31, 2015, 03:52:43 PM
Part of it, but let's not forget cradle to grave promises and services as well.  Isn't it amazing that in the 1950's with optimism through the roof, arguably the greatest decade to live in the US, people also knew that gov't wasn't there to bail them out, we didn't have massive social programs (some, but not to the extent today), people were largely self sufficient.

Holy crap.

Talk about having your head buried in the sand.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on October 31, 2015, 04:43:18 PM

Holy crap.

Talk about having your head buried in the sand.

At the height of guys getting gov't $$$$ to go to college on the GI Bill.

I miss June Cleaver and Donna Reed. ;D

Quote from: brandx on October 31, 2015, 07:37:12 PM
At the height of guys getting gov't $$$$ to go to college on the GI Bill.

I miss June Cleaver and Donna Reed. ;D

C'mon.... at least give us a NSFW warning.