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MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: MUDPT on October 15, 2015, 08:10:17 PM

Title: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: MUDPT on October 15, 2015, 08:10:17 PM
Top 100 Scorers

http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2015/10/15/top-scorers-kyle-wiltjer-stefan-moody-buddy-hield

Duane: 14.1 ppg
Henry: 13.6 ppg

"The prize of Marquette's 2015 recruiting class, stretch-four Henry Ellenson (No. 94), projects to be the highest-scoring freshman in the Big East. He and sophomore guard Duane Wilson (No. 72) will lead a Golden Eagles team that we expect to get back to the NCAA tournament for the first time since 2013."
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: Galway Eagle on October 15, 2015, 08:52:18 PM
If those are accurate and Luke can stay at 11 or move up a big we'll be in good shape
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 16, 2015, 08:39:55 AM
Can I say I don't get all the Grayson Allen love? He's going to be a great player but I have seen nothing in his game that makes me think he will score 16+ points a game.
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: MerrittsMustache on October 16, 2015, 08:51:52 AM
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on October 16, 2015, 08:39:55 AM
Can I say I don't get all the Grayson Allen love? He's going to be a great player but I have seen nothing in his game that makes me think he will score 16+ points a game.

Somebody's gotta score. Duke lost their top 5 scorers from last season (counting Sulaimon).

Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 16, 2015, 08:57:11 AM
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on October 16, 2015, 08:51:52 AM
Somebody's gotta score. Duke lost their top 5 scorers from last season (counting Sulaimon).

I get that, but they've got four 5 star freshman and really talented transfer coming in. I feel like they've got options
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: bilsu on October 16, 2015, 09:04:48 AM
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on October 15, 2015, 08:52:18 PM
If those are accurate and Luke can stay at 11 or move up a big we'll be in good shape
As far as I can tell the predictive system used here does not take into account that Luke had a bad shoulder last year. I still believe Henry, Duane and Luke average 45 points a game.
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: MUfan12 on October 16, 2015, 09:06:57 AM
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on October 16, 2015, 08:39:55 AM
Can I say I don't get all the Grayson Allen love? He's going to be a great player but I have seen nothing in his game that makes me think he will score 16+ points a game.

After what he and Tyus did last April, they will always be considered friends of the Marquette family, and should never be questioned.
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: bilsu on October 16, 2015, 10:14:31 AM
Quote from: bilsu on October 16, 2015, 09:04:48 AM
As far as I can tell the predictive system used here does not take into account that Luke had a bad shoulder last year. I still believe Henry, Duane and Luke average 45 points a game.
Last year Carlino, Duane & Fischer averaged 37.9 points and team averaged 65.1 points. 13-19 record
2011-12 season DJO, Crowder & Davante averaged 45.3 points and team averaged 75.4 pts. 27-8 record
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: Loose Cannon on October 16, 2015, 10:49:03 AM
Quote from: bilsu on October 16, 2015, 10:14:31 AM
Last year Carlino, Duane & Fischer averaged 37.9 points and team averaged 65.1 points. 13-19 record
2011-12 season DJO, Crowder & Davante averaged 45.3 points and team averaged 75.4 pts. 27-8 record

It seems easy to make a case for this team reaching 75 plus a game.
  1) Luke's healthy shoulder
  2) Games missed by Luke & Carlino last year.
  3) Much more scoring from the PG
  4) Better scorers around our Big Three
  5) A better and faster disruptive defense leading to turnover points.
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: wadesworld on October 16, 2015, 10:51:10 AM
Quote from: MUfan12 on October 16, 2015, 09:06:57 AM
After what he and Tyus did last April, they will always be considered friends of the Marquette family, and should never be questioned.

+1.
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: Galway Eagle on October 16, 2015, 10:56:18 AM
Quote from: Loose Cannon on October 16, 2015, 10:49:03 AM
It seems easy to make a case for this team reaching 75 plus a game.
  1) Luke's healthy shoulder
  2) Games missed by Luke & Carlino last year.
  3) Much more scoring from the PG
  4) Better scorers around our Big Three
  5) A better and faster disruptive defense leading to turnover points.

Plus lower shot clock
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: Loose Cannon on October 16, 2015, 11:27:51 AM
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on October 16, 2015, 10:56:18 AM


Plus lower shot clock

Yes, you're right.
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: bilsu on October 16, 2015, 11:36:26 AM
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on October 16, 2015, 10:56:18 AM


Plus lower shot clock
Also less tired players, because of better depth.
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: barfolomew on October 16, 2015, 11:56:16 AM
Quote from: Loose Cannon on October 16, 2015, 10:49:03 AM

  5) A better and faster disruptive defense leading to turnover points.


The previews have looked good so far, but I would say the defensive end will be a big fat question mark until we have played a few solid teams.
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: Loose Cannon on October 16, 2015, 12:23:21 PM
Quote from: barfolomew on October 16, 2015, 11:56:16 AM
The previews have looked good so far, but I would say the defensive end will be a big fat question mark until we have played a few solid teams.

Are you thinking they may be the same or less than last year's team against solid teams?
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: fjm on October 16, 2015, 12:44:50 PM
I think bringing up the defense is appropriate. Our O will be there as the talent we have will outshine our youth.
Our youth will show most on defense on quick switches and kick outs.
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: barfolomew on October 16, 2015, 03:02:18 PM
Quote from: Loose Cannon on October 16, 2015, 12:23:21 PM
Are you thinking they may be the same or less than last year's team against solid teams?

I agree with fjm; the youth factor means the defensive end may take some time. The talent increase from last year is there, but how all the new faces mesh into Wojo's defensive scheme is an unknown commodity. We may see more zone at the outset like we did last year.
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: Loose Cannon on October 16, 2015, 04:45:54 PM
Quote from: barfolomew on October 16, 2015, 03:02:18 PM
I agree with fjm; the youth factor means the defensive end may take some time. The talent increase from last year is there, but how all the new faces mesh into Wojo's defensive scheme is an unknown commodity. We may see more zone at the outset like we did last year.

Certainly there is truth in your view.

I however have much faith in the returning players having a better grasp of what the Coaches want on Defense.  I think the new players (Traci, Hannif & Sacar) will mesh from the very first game and become better during  the season.  I believe Wojo recruiting of them and knowing their skill level will be easier to mesh this group as opposed to last year.

I guess we will see in the opening games.  Either way its going to be an excising year.
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: Jay Bee on October 16, 2015, 09:36:05 PM
Quote from: Loose Cannon on October 16, 2015, 10:49:03 AM
It seems easy to make a case for this team reaching 75 plus a game.
 

Do the math on possessions and ppp and reassess. If you still believe this, please provide your 'reasonable' assumptions (which would be comprised of two things - possessions per game and ppp)
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: Loose Cannon on October 17, 2015, 12:32:30 AM
Quote from: Jay Bee on October 16, 2015, 09:36:05 PM
Do the math on possessions and ppp and reassess. If you still believe this, please provide your 'reasonable' assumptions (which would be comprised of two things - possessions per game and ppp)

My belief is based on the 5 elements listed in my above #8 post  which makes sense to me.

If your possessions/PPP  math leads to a different number other than 75 plus then we disagree on the tools we used.  Would you care to share your number so we can compare at the end of the season.

Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: bilsu on October 17, 2015, 12:34:15 AM
Quote from: Jay Bee on October 16, 2015, 09:36:05 PM
Do the math on possessions and ppp and reassess. If you still believe this, please provide your 'reasonable' assumptions (which would be comprised of two things - possessions per game and ppp)
There is no question that this team is more offensively talented. It also has more depth, which will allow Wojo to use the more up temple game he says he wants to play.
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: DaCoach on October 17, 2015, 02:13:08 AM
Quote from: bilsu on October 17, 2015, 12:34:15 AM
There is no question that this team is more offensively talented. It also has more depth, which will allow Wojo to use the more up temple game he says he wants to play.

Is that a Jewish message?
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: Jay Bee on October 17, 2015, 11:00:25 AM
Quote from: Loose Cannon on October 17, 2015, 12:32:30 AM
My belief is based on the 5 elements listed in my above #8 post  which makes sense to me.

If your possessions/PPP  math leads to a different number other than 75 plus then we disagree on the tools we used.  Would you care to share your number so we can compare at the end of the season.

I don't have a number. My challenge is that I can't get comfortable with any possessions/ppp that result in 75+. They were sub-65 possessions per game and sub 1.00 ppp a year ago.

Let's say possessions rise to 68.. we're going to be 1.10+ ppp? Tough to call that 'easy to make a case'...

Senior year for Jae, DJO.. 70.8 possessions, 106.2 ppp.. to just barely get to 75.
Jimmy's sr year where he and Jae were unreal.. 68.4 & 109.7... to just barely get to 75

Of course, in those years average possessions per game in college basketball were ~3% more than 2014-15.. will the shot clock make them equal?

Not sure. My point is I don't think it's easy to make a case that this team will score 75 points per game and I wanted to know how you get there mathematically.. 68 and 108.. I can maybe get there.. but that's still short of 75.
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: Loose Cannon on October 17, 2015, 06:30:11 PM
Quote from: Jay Bee on October 17, 2015, 11:00:25 AM
I don't have a number. My challenge is that I can't get comfortable with any possessions/ppp that result in 75+. They were sub-65 possessions per game and sub 1.00 ppp a year ago.

Let's say possessions rise to 68.. we're going to be 1.10+ ppp? Tough to call that 'easy to make a case'...

Senior year for Jae, DJO.. 70.8 possessions, 106.2 ppp.. to just barely get to 75.
Jimmy's sr year where he and Jae were unreal.. 68.4 & 109.7... to just barely get to 75

Of course, in those years average possessions per game in college basketball were ~3% more than 2014-15.. will the shot clock make them equal?

Not sure. My point is I don't think it's easy to make a case that this team will score 75 points per game and I wanted to know how you get there mathematically.. 68 and 108.. I can maybe get there.. but that's still short of 75.

Based on your calculations I can see your concern.

For me I'm coming from another direction, I see a PG that should add 6-8 more points a game.  our other players adding another 8 and also an increase  in FT attempts and FT's made..

I consider you one of the most knowledgeable posters on this site, so I'm trying to find where there might be a fallacy in my approach.
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: bilsu on October 18, 2015, 10:59:07 AM
Another thing to take into account is our weak non-conference schedule. We probably will not average 75 points a game in the Big East, but we will be significanly above that before we enter the conference. I could easily see us scoring 100 or more in 6 of our non-conference games.
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: We R Final Four on October 18, 2015, 11:13:01 AM
Quote from: MUfan12 on October 16, 2015, 09:06:57 AM
After what he and Tyus did last April, they will always be considered friends of the Marquette family, and should never be questioned.
No doubt! Thank God.
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: MUfan12 on October 18, 2015, 12:49:29 PM
Quote from: DaCoach on October 17, 2015, 02:13:08 AM
Is that a Jewish message?

I think that's why Niv left. Not up temple enough.
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: bilsu on October 18, 2015, 01:42:49 PM
ok  tempo
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: Loose Cannon on October 18, 2015, 07:37:08 PM
Quote from: bilsu on October 16, 2015, 11:36:26 AM
Also less tired players, because of better depth.

Maybe another factor is missed games.

   Luke missed 8, if we add his average (11.04) X 8 ..88.33 to the team total (2083)
   and do the same for Carlino who missed 4.....(14.96) X 4 we have 59.85 to add

   2083 + 88  + 60  team total is then 2231 by 32 games averages  69.72 compared to the
   65.09 without their presence.   That narrows the gap to 75 plus.
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: Jay Bee on October 18, 2015, 09:21:52 PM
Quote from: Loose Cannon on October 18, 2015, 07:37:08 PM
Maybe another factor is missed games.

   Luke missed 8, if we add his average (11.04) X 8 ..88.33 to the team total (2083)
   and do the same for Carlino who missed 4.....(14.96) X 4 we have 59.85 to add

   2083 + 88  + 60  team total is then 2231 by 32 games averages  69.72 compared to the
   65.09 without their presence.   That narrows the gap to 75 plus.

Oh dear.

It's a question of who do they replace? Someone has to take Carlino's used possessions... 107-ish offensive rating... and a high usage... how do you exceed those? Sure, the PG may score more.. but Derrick used very few possessions... his %Shot was.. not looking, guessing 12%?

Unfortunately it's not as easy as 'Traci will score X more points than Derrick'.. that logic is flawed.

It all gets down to tempo and efficiency. The wildcard = rule changes, IMO.
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: Loose Cannon on October 18, 2015, 09:31:50 PM
Quote from: Jay Bee on October 18, 2015, 09:21:52 PM
Oh dear.

It's a question of who do they replace? Someone has to take Carlino's used possessions... 107-ish offensive rating... and a high usage... how do you exceed those? Sure, the PG may score more.. but Derrick used very few possessions... his %Shot was.. not looking, guessing 12%?

Unfortunately it's not as easy as 'Traci will score X more points than Derrick'.. that logic is flawed.

It all gets down to tempo and efficiency. The wildcard = rule changes, IMO.

  So with your formula what are you forecasting for the 15-16 team's games average?  Thanks
Title: Re: Dan Hanner is Back
Post by: Jay Bee on October 18, 2015, 09:45:24 PM
Quote from: Loose Cannon on October 18, 2015, 09:31:50 PM
  So with your formula what are you forecasting for the 15-16 team's games average?  Thanks

Haven't gone to that level of detail to say.. 68-ish feels right
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