http://sportswire.usatoday.com/2015/06/17/2015-summer-bracketology-projecting-the-way-too-early-field-of-68/
MU one of last 4 in. Maybe there is hope for a turn around season. I know, but it's fun to speculate.
Would be fun to see what TAMU eagle would do if we ended up in a MU vs TAMU game
Who here is going to Dayton?
I think we're going to be better than that.
You heard it here first. I think we all will be surprised at how good we will be come winter.
I CAN HARDLY WAIT FOR THE FIRST FROST!!!!!!!
I believe we will be far better then that, but crap, that looks to be a fairly easy ride to a sweet 16/elite 8 if you beat Arizona, which would be possible with next years lineup.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on June 23, 2015, 09:01:41 PM
Would be fun to see what TAMU eagle would do if we ended up in a MU vs TAMU game
A&M gets me as a football fan. My heart will always belong to MU in everything else....I might get fired after the game though
Quote from: muwarrior69 on June 23, 2015, 08:59:27 PM
http://sportswire.usatoday.com/2015/06/17/2015-summer-bracketology-projecting-the-way-too-early-field-of-68/
MU one of last 4 in. Maybe there is hope for a turn around season. I know, but it's fun to speculate.
I'm working on a version of this for Paint Touches. Not done with my research but here are my initial thoughts:
Kentucky is way too high. I have them in the 7 to 9 seed range
Wichita State is 1 seed material
Michigan State has 2 seed talent, but will underperform due to lack of a true PG
NC State is way too high. I don't think they make the tournament. Victims of a top heavy ACC
Purdue will be good but not three seed good
Wisconsin too high. They will struggle but will eventually sneak into the tournament
West Virginia too low IMHO, but might be right because of how good the top of the Big 12 is
California is too high. They're 2 stud freshmen are great, but the supporting cast is not there
Syracuse is too high, think they will be one of the last ones in
Vanderbilt will surprise people. I think they win the SEC (come home LaChance!)
Cincy should win the AAC, I think they are around a 5 seed
Tulsa ain't making the tournament. They aren't good enough to compete with the top half of the AAC and the bottom half will kill their RPI
Arkansas isn't sniffing this tournament
I hate to say it, but I don't think either Illinois State or Marquette will make the tourney
Xavier is gonna be better than people think. 7-10 seed material
UConn, led by their two grad transfer studs, will be back in the tourney
Most of the autobid picks are lazy. Just took the best team from last year and said they would win again.
Marquette to the Final Four!
Texas A&M a sixth seed? Are you kidding me????
#TAMUEagle lure
Wow. I hate Wisconsin as much as the next guy, but there is no way they struggle this year and they will be firmly in the field. Certainly down from last year, but I'd expect them to be about a 4 seed.
Never mind
Quote from: Marqwarrior89 on June 24, 2015, 10:57:07 AM
Wow. I hate Wisconsin as much as the next guy, but there is no way they struggle this year and they will be firmly in the field. Certainly down from last year, but I'd expect them to be about a 4 seed.
Why?
Look at what they return.
PG: Koneig: 8.7 ppg, 1.8 rpg, 2.5 apg, 0.2 spg, .405 3P%
SG: Gasser: Graduated
SF: Dekker: Declared for the draft
PF: Hayes: 12.4 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 2.0 apg, 0.9 sg, .396 3P%
C: Kaminsky: Graduated
Bench
1: Jackson: Graduated
2: Dukan: Graduated
3: Showalter: 2.1 ppg, 1.3 rpg, 0.5 apg, 0.3 spg, .143 3P%
4: Brown: 1.8 ppg, 1.3 rpg, 0.2 apg, 0.2 bpg, .000 3P%
Now look at what they bring in:
Pritzil: #87 ranked player
Happ: 2014 #150 ranked player coming off redshirt
Illikainen: #137 ranked player
Thomas: #324 ranked player
Iverson: #340 ranked player
Van Vliet: Unranked player
That leads to a likely rotation of:
PG: Koneig: 8.7 ppg, 1.8 rpg, 2.5 apg, 0.2 spg, .405 3P%
SG: Pritzil: #87 ranked player
SF: Hayes: 12.4 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 2.0 apg, 0.9 sg, .396 3P%
PF: Happ: 2014 #150 ranked player coming off redshirt
C: Illikainen: #137 ranked player
Bench
1: Showalter: 2.1 ppg, 1.3 rpg, 0.5 apg, 0.3 spg, .143 3P%
2: Brown: 1.8 ppg, 1.3 rpg, 0.2 apg, 0.2 bpg, .000 3P%
3: Thomas: #324 ranked player
4: Iverson: #340 ranked player
Does that really seem like a 4 seed rotation to you? They would need massive contributions from three freshmen who aren't that heralded or huge improvements from Showalter or Brown to be a legitimate contender. The only reason I think they even make the tournament is because of my respect for Bo Ryan being able to get the best out of his players.
You also have to take the strength of the Big 10 into account as well. I can almost guarantee that Maryland, Michigan State, Indiana, and Purdue will all be better than Wisconsin. I think Iowa, Ohio State, and Michigan all have an argument for being better than Wisconsin. I think the Badgers finish somewhere between 5th-8th in the B1G this year.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on June 24, 2015, 01:27:45 PM
Why?
Look at what they return.
PG: Koneig: 8.7 ppg, 1.8 rpg, 2.5 apg, 0.2 spg, .405 3P%
SG: Gasser: Graduated
SF: Dekker: Declared for the draft
PF: Hayes: 12.4 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 2.0 apg, 0.9 sg, .396 3P%
C: Kaminsky: Graduated
Bench
1: Jackson: Graduated
2: Dukan: Graduated
3: Showalter: 2.1 ppg, 1.3 rpg, 0.5 apg, 0.3 spg, .143 3P%
4: Brown: 1.8 ppg, 1.3 rpg, 0.2 apg, 0.2 bpg, .000 3P%
Now look at what they bring in:
Pritzil: #87 ranked player
Happ: 2014 #150 ranked player coming off redshirt
Illikainen: #137 ranked player
Thomas: #324 ranked player
Iverson: #340 ranked player
Van Vliet: Unranked player
That leads to a likely rotation of:
PG: Koneig: 8.7 ppg, 1.8 rpg, 2.5 apg, 0.2 spg, .405 3P%
SG: Pritzil: #87 ranked player
SF: Hayes: 12.4 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 2.0 apg, 0.9 sg, .396 3P%
PF: Happ: 2014 #150 ranked player coming off redshirt
C: Illikainen: #137 ranked player
Bench
1: Showalter: 2.1 ppg, 1.3 rpg, 0.5 apg, 0.3 spg, .143 3P%
2: Brown: 1.8 ppg, 1.3 rpg, 0.2 apg, 0.2 bpg, .000 3P%
3: Thomas: #324 ranked player
4: Iverson: #340 ranked player
Does that really seem like a 4 seed rotation to you? They would need massive contributions from three freshmen who aren't that heralded or huge improvements from Showalter or Brown to be a legitimate contender. The only reason I think they even make the tournament is because of my respect for Bo Ryan being able to get the best out of his players.
You also have to take the strength of the Big 10 into account as well. I can almost guarantee that Maryland, Michigan State, Indiana, and Purdue will all be better than Wisconsin. I think Iowa, Ohio State, and Michigan all have an argument for being better than Wisconsin. I think the Badgers finish somewhere between 5th-8th in the B1G this year.
you still haven't learned anything about bo and his system have you? he could plug me in there and i'd be a 12 and 5 guy for him.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 24, 2015, 01:50:08 PM
you still haven't learned anything about bo and his system have you? he could plug me in there and i'd be a 12 and 5 guy for him.
I know all about his system. It requires upperclassmen to work. Relying this heavily on freshmen will not go well for Bo. That being said, "not going well for Bo" still means making the tournament.
This may be the first time Bo doesn't have any seniors. Koenig and Hayes are solid, but no one else has shown they should be expected to be a real contributor. Showalter is a lesser Gasser, Brown ous down right terrible (and not in the Frank Kaminski "doesn't play much so probably won't be good" way but in the "when he does play he's terrible" way), and no one else returning has any actual experience.
Will they make the tourney? Probably. But they'll need at least 3-4 guys to step up significantly just to get in. This is the year Bo's top-4 Big Ten streak ends, and the worst team he's ever had to work with in Madison, unless there's a hidden 5-star freshman or Happ is the second coming.
other than going into last season, when people knew they would be good, it's been the same song and dance every single year for the badgers. "look what they lost! they can't win with that! they have nobody anymore! they graduated everyone! these 2 will be okay but nobody else has done anything! they're a bubble team at best! this is the season that bo finally doesn't finish top 4 in the b1g!"
it's like my bills fan this year claiming that the bills were going to win their division after the patriot's slow start like 4 weeks into the nfl season. hilarious. one thing that every fan in that division should know is to never sleep on tom brady. just like every marquette and b1g fan should know to never sleep on bo ryan. never.
i'll believe it when i see it. or when bo retires.
now, if you told me they'd get a 4 or 5 seed and be bounced first round, then that would be more believable.
I think they'll make the tournament and go nowhere. I don't think they'll finish top 4 in the B1G. And IF there was a year their streak will end its this year.
I thought this was a Marquette board.
Those of you with Badger envy (a curable disease by the way) should go to the Wisconsin boards.
We are Marquette:
1) We will rebound and do surprisingly well next year.
2) We will make the tournament in 2016
3) We will defeat the vile rodent from Madison
Does anything else matter?
Go away Badger trolls
Quote from: dgies9156 on June 24, 2015, 10:52:45 PM
I thought this was a Marquette board.
Those of you with Badger envy (a curable disease by the way) should go to the Wisconsin boards.
We are Marquette:
1) We will rebound and do surprisingly well next year.
2) We will make the tournament in 2016
3) We will defeat the vile rodent from Madison
Does anything else matter?
Go away Badger trolls
I don't see how Marquette fans discussing a Wisconsin team that we play every year and have a huge rivalry with is trolling for the Badgers. This is a discussion board. If you don't care for what's being discussed,
that is easily cured, give it a pass. No one on this board is obligated to post only that which amuses you.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on June 23, 2015, 08:59:27 PM
http://sportswire.usatoday.com/2015/06/17/2015-summer-bracketology-projecting-the-way-too-early-field-of-68/
MU one of last 4 in. Maybe there is hope for a turn around season. I know, but it's fun to speculate.
Oh..the outrage. We return no seniors from an abysmal last year....we should be getting a top 4 seed.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 24, 2015, 04:53:17 PM
other than going into last season, when people knew they would be good, it's been the same song and dance every single year for the badgers. "look what they lost! they can't win with that! they have nobody anymore! they graduated everyone! these 2 will be okay but nobody else has done anything! they're a bubble team at best! this is the season that bo finally doesn't finish top 4 in the b1g!"
it's like my bills fan this year claiming that the bills were going to win their division after the patriot's slow start like 4 weeks into the nfl season. hilarious. one thing that every fan in that division should know is to never sleep on tom brady. just like every marquette and b1g fan should know to never sleep on bo ryan. never.
i'll believe it when i see it. or when bo retires.
now, if you told me they'd get a 4 or 5 seed and be bounced first round, then that would be more believable.
If you find me another year where Bo had 0 seniors, 4 juniors, 0 sophomores who have ever averaged more than 3 minutes a game, and had to rely on at least five freshmen playing significant minutes (where only one of them was ranked in the top 100...and it was in the bottom quarter), then I would say it was the same thing.
Bo's system needs upperclassmen with experience. He doesn't have that this year. They will struggle. Bo's streak of top 4 B1G finishes ends this year. However, next year, they will be pretty damn good again (assuming no surprising departures).
I agree with earler comments, let's avoid discussing the team to the west, at least until we are about to play them again. They had a great run last year and got close to winning the whole thing. Bo is unlikely to get that close again before he retires. Our chances with a young coach who has demonstrated his recruiting chops, is better.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on June 25, 2015, 07:40:32 AM
If you find me another year where Bo had 0 seniors, 4 juniors, 0 sophomores who have ever averaged more than 3 minutes a game, and had to rely on at least five freshmen playing significant minutes (where only one of them was ranked in the top 100...and it was in the bottom quarter), then I would say it was the same thing.
Bo's system needs upperclassmen with experience. He doesn't have that this year. They will struggle. Bo's streak of top 4 B1G finishes ends this year. However, next year, they will be pretty damn good again (assuming no surprising departures).
it's not very hard. the 2013-2014 team that went to the final four had jackson and brust as the only 2 upper classmen who had been contributors on the 2012-2013 team. the only players to average 15+ mpg on the 13-14 team were brust, gasser, jackson, dekker, kaminsky, hayes, and koenig. brust and jackson were upper classmen who averaged 34 and 27 mpg, respectively, the year before. kaminsky averaged 10 mpg, gasser was out with injury and didn't play, dekker was a sophomore (underclassman) in 13-14, and hayes and koenig were both freshman in 13-14. they finished in the top 4 of the b1g and went to the final four.
this season they will have hayes and koenig as their 2 upper classmen who were contributors on the past year's team, just like the 13-14 team had jackson and brust, and there is no doubt whatsoever that the combination of hayes and koenig is far better than jackson and brust were (brust was underrated, but jackson was bad and it's no surprise that the badgers really rounded into form once koenig took the reigns when jackson got hurt last season).
i'm sure there are plenty more examples, but i didn't waste my time when really it took the first year prior to last season (when everyone expected them to be very good for the first time under bo).
now, find me a year where bo's team has been bad in the regular season and then i would be on your side. but that hasn't happened.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 25, 2015, 08:40:46 AM
it's not very hard. the 2013-2014 team that went to the final four had jackson and brust as the only 2 upper classmen who had been contributors on the 2012-2013 team. the only players to average 15+ mpg on the 13-14 team were brust, gasser, jackson, dekker, kaminsky, hayes, and koenig. brust and jackson were upper classmen who averaged 34 and 27 mpg, respectively, the year before. kaminsky averaged 10 mpg, gasser was out with injury and didn't play, dekker was a sophomore (underclassman) in 13-14, and hayes and koenig were both freshman in 13-14. they finished in the top 4 of the b1g and went to the final four.
this season they will have hayes and koenig as their 2 upper classmen who were contributors on the past year's team, just like the 13-14 team had jackson and brust, and there is no doubt whatsoever that the combination of hayes and koenig is far better than jackson and brust were (brust was underrated, but jackson was bad and it's no surprise that the badgers really rounded into form once koenig took the reigns when jackson got hurt last season).
i'm sure there are plenty more examples, but i didn't waste my time when really it took the first year prior to last season (when everyone expected them to be very good for the first time under bo).
now, find me a year where bo's team has been bad in the regular season and then i would be on your side. but that hasn't happened.
Are we limited to Madison in this search? Because he was pretty bad at UWmilwaukee
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 24, 2015, 04:53:17 PMother than going into last season, when people knew they would be good, it's been the same song and dance every single year for the badgers. "look what they lost! they can't win with that! they have nobody anymore! they graduated everyone! these 2 will be okay but nobody else has done anything! they're a bubble team at best! this is the season that bo finally doesn't finish top 4 in the b1g!"
I know where you're coming from, and yes, history is on Bo's side. However, here's why I think this year's team is different. Let's look at the makeup of recent teams:
.
- 2007-08: Lost Tucker & Taylor, but returned Butch, Landry, Flowers, & Krabbenhoft, all upperclassmen that were high offensive efficiency players, even in limited minutes as underclassmen.
- 2008-09: Lost Butch & Flowers, but returned Hughes, Landry, Bohannon, & Krabbenhoft, all upperclassmen that were high offensive efficiency players.
- 2009-10: Lost Krabbenhoft & Landry, but returned Hughes, Bohannon, Jarmusz, Leuer, & Nankivil, all upperclassmen that were high offensive efficiency players.
- 2010-11: Lost Hughes & Bohannon, but returned Leuer, Nankivil, Taylor, & Jarmusz, all upperclassmen that were high offensive efficiency players.
- 2011-12: Lost Leuer, Nankivil, & Jarmusz, but returned Taylor, Berggren, & Brusewitz, all upperclassmen that were high offensive efficiency players.
- 2012-13: Lost Taylor, but returned Berggren, Brusewitz, & Brust, all upperclassmen that were high offensive efficiency players. Also a huge boost from 5-star freshman Dekker.
- 2013-14: Lost Berggren & Brusewitz, but returned Kaminsky, Brust, and Gasser, all upperclassmen that were high offensive efficiency players, as well as Dekker. I know everyone was shocked by Kaminsky, myself included, but his freshman/sophomore efficiencies of 105.8/122.4, even in limited minutes, should have let us know he might be good. No one expected him to be that good, but there were definitely indicators before his breakout junior season.
- 2014-15: Lost Brust, but returned Kaminsky, Gasser, Dekker, Jackson, and Dukan, all upperclassmen that were high offensive efficiency players.
.
Those teams also all had a number of underclassmen that were at least playing well. But every Bo team in the past 8 years had 3-5 upperclassmen to carry them that had a proven track record of efficient offensive play. Every single team. Now let's take a quick look at what's different about this year's team:
1) No seniors. Unless you count Jordan Smith. And you really shouldn't.
2) Only two meaningful upperclassmen. Hayes and Koenig are great. No denying that. But Vitto Brown is terrible. And Showalter may be a poor man's Gasser, and has been efficient in very limited minutes, but can't shoot a three, something Bo's teams need out of that role if he's going to become a team leader (16.7% career 3P%).
3) No depth. After those 4 names I mentioned above, no one on Bo's team has ever played even a full game's worth of minutes in a season. 39 for Dearring last year, 35 for Smith last year.
4) Huge freshman reliance. In the past 8 years, only 3 freshmen have played 40% of the Badgers minutes -- Gasser (69.9%), Dekker (54.9%), & Hayes (43.5%). This year most likely at least 3 of the Badger freshmen will have to do that. So is anyone willing to bet that Happ, Pritzl, and Illikainen (the likely 3) will all be able to have similar freshman impacts to Gasser, Dekker, & Hayes?
I get the believing in Bo and his system, but if you look at the strength of his system, it's the presence of proven juniors and seniors (which he has few compared to the past) and relatively little contributions from freshmen. This year he won't have the upperclassmen and will have to get major contributions from freshmen. It's a totally different team from anything he has ever had. That, coupled with a stronger Big Ten and a more difficult Big Ten schedule for Wisconsin is exactly why I think the top-four streak is over.
Barring material injuries, Marquette -8 vs. UW this year. Book it.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 25, 2015, 08:40:46 AM
it's not very hard. the 2013-2014 team that went to the final four had jackson and brust as the only 2 upper classmen who had been contributors on the 2012-2013 team. the only players to average 15+ mpg on the 13-14 team were brust, gasser, jackson, dekker, kaminsky, hayes, and koenig. brust and jackson were upper classmen who averaged 34 and 27 mpg, respectively, the year before. kaminsky averaged 10 mpg, gasser was out with injury and didn't play, dekker was a sophomore (underclassman) in 13-14, and hayes and koenig were both freshman in 13-14. they finished in the top 4 of the b1g and went to the final four.
this season they will have hayes and koenig as their 2 upper classmen who were contributors on the past year's team, just like the 13-14 team had jackson and brust, and there is no doubt whatsoever that the combination of hayes and koenig is far better than jackson and brust were (brust was underrated, but jackson was bad and it's no surprise that the badgers really rounded into form once koenig took the reigns when jackson got hurt last season).
i'm sure there are plenty more examples, but i didn't waste my time when really it took the first year prior to last season (when everyone expected them to be very good for the first time under bo).
now, find me a year where bo's team has been bad in the regular season and then i would be on your side. but that hasn't happened.
Lets compare 13-14 to 15-16
13-14Bohananon RS Senior
Brust Senior
Dukan RS Junior
Gasser RS Junior
Anderson RS Junior
Jackson Junior
Kaminsky Junior
Dekker Sophomore
Showalter Sophomore
Hayes Freshman
HIll Freshman
Koenig Freshman
Brown Freshman
Dearring Freshman
Total years of experience: 22
15-16Showalter RS Junior
Koenig Junior
Hayes Junior
Brown Junior
Hill RS Sophomore
Dearring RS Sophomore
Happ RS Freshman
Pritzl Freshman
Iverson Freshman
Illikainen Freshman
Thomas IV Freshman
Total years of experience: 14
Bos system requires underclassmen. He doesn't have them this year. They will still make the tournament but they won't finish in the top of the B1G. Look at Maryland, Michigan state, Indiana, abd Purdue. Which of those four do you really think will be worse than Wisconsin this year? Then look at Iowa, Ohio state, and Michigan. All of them will be about as good if not better. Conference strength matters
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on June 25, 2015, 07:40:32 AM
If you find me another year where Bo had 0 seniors, 4 juniors, 0 sophomores who have ever averaged more than 3 minutes a game, and had to rely on at least five freshmen playing significant minutes (where only one of them was ranked in the top 100...and it was in the bottom quarter), then I would say it was the same thing.
Bo's system needs upperclassmen with experience. He doesn't have that this year. They will struggle. Bo's streak of top 4 B1G finishes ends this year. However, next year, they will be pretty damn good again (assuming no surprising departures).
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on June 25, 2015, 10:06:43 AM
Lets compare 13-14 to 15-16
13-14
Bohananon RS Senior
Brust Senior
Dukan RS Junior
Gasser RS Junior
Anderson RS Junior
Jackson Junior
Kaminsky Junior
Dekker Sophomore
Showalter Sophomore
Hayes Freshman
HIll Freshman
Koenig Freshman
Brown Freshman
Dearring Freshman
Total years of experience: 22
15-16
Showalter RS Junior
Koenig Junior
Hayes Junior
Brown Junior
Hill RS Sophomore
Dearring RS Sophomore
Happ RS Freshman
Pritzl Freshman
Iverson Freshman
Illikainen Freshman
Thomas IV Freshman
Total years of experience: 14
Not a good comparison on your part.
i bolded the players that matched your experienced upperclassmen required to make bo's system work. seems like an identical comparison on my part.so first you were claiming he needs experienced upper classmen. when i proved that wrong now the argument changes to total years of experience in college basketball, regardless of how many minutes they played, what their role on the team is, etc. got it.
hard to be wrong when you change the argument once your first argument is wrong.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 25, 2015, 10:16:22 AM
i bolded the players that matched your experienced upperclassmen required to make bo's system work. seems like an identical comparison on my part.
so first you were claiming he needs experienced upper classmen. when i proved that wrong now the argument changes to total years of experience in college basketball. got it.
hard to be wrong when you change the argument once your first argument is wrong.
I didn't change my argument at all. Experience means years in college basketball. Why do you think bo uses redshirts more than any other high major coach? It's to teach his players his system and make them better before relying on them for major minutes. Do you think they are just standing around during redshirt years?
Hayes/Koenig is better than Brust/Jackson, but you are ignoring the rest of the team. Deeker/Gasser/kaminsky/dukan is better than showalter/brown/dearring/hill.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on June 25, 2015, 10:29:00 AM
I didn't change my argument at all. Experience means years in college basketball. Why do you think bo uses redshirts more than any other high major coach? It's to teach his players his system and make them better before relying on them for major minutes. Do you think they are just standing around during redshirt years?
Hayes/Koenig is better than Brust/Jackson, but you are ignoring the rest of the team. Deeker/Gasser/kaminsky/dukan is better than showalter/brown/dearring/hill.
then what's the point of adding "experienced" in front of upperclassmen. if a player gains experience just by the number of years he is on a roster in college basketball, regardless of how much he plays, isn't any upperclassman going to be "experienced" in your definition? seems redundant. or else you were differentiating between players who were upperclassmen that had contributed and players that were upperclassmen that had yet to contribute significantly to a team's success.
we don't know if that second group of players is going to be better or worse, not to mention dekker was a sophomore so we can remove him based on your "experienced" definition (he only had 1 year of college basketball experience, so he couldn't be an experience player i guess). going into 13-14 i guarantee you we were saying "gasser, kaminsky, and dukan have no experience, they won't be any good."
if you guys want to continue to doubt and question what bo can do that's fine. argue with the results. it's never smart to do, but I'm not going to stop you. until he has a down year, i will continue to not overlook them and pretend they'll be a bubble team. they never are. maybe others will learn that.
Agree with Bias. What are Benny and others crowing about. ?-( Until they are bad I won't believe they are going to be bad. We have many many more unproven players. Safe to say Hayes/Koenig are better than Luke and Duane. They have two guys that were key cogs and a few others that contributed to 2 FF runs. Koenig and Hayes are both very good college players who will only get better like all their other guys in the past.
It's not about Hayes and Koenig, it's that they have no one after those two.
Quote from: brewcity77 on June 25, 2015, 06:27:18 PM
It's not about Hayes and Koenig, it's that they have no one after those two.
just like they had "no one after" jackson/brust in 2013-2014...until they did. and then they went to the final four.
same song and dance every year.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 25, 2015, 11:17:58 AM
then what's the point of adding "experienced" in front of upperclassmen. if a player gains experience just by the number of years he is on a roster in college basketball, regardless of how much he plays, isn't any upperclassman going to be "experienced" in your definition? seems redundant. or else you were differentiating between players who were upperclassmen that had contributed and players that were upperclassmen that had yet to contribute significantly to a team's success.
we don't know if that second group of players is going to be better or worse, not to mention dekker was a sophomore so we can remove him based on your "experienced" definition (he only had 1 year of college basketball experience, so he couldn't be an experience player i guess).
I never said that only upperclassmen can contribute. I said his system requires upperclassmen to work. I also said that it can't rely on freshmen contributing at a high level. Bo will have limited upperclassmen this year. He will also rely on at least three freshmen making huge contributions. That is not a winning formula for the Badgers, never has been. Bo has always had at least one senior and several reliable redshirt juniors/true juniors to rely on. As Brew mentioned before, only three badger freshmen have ever played 40% or more of a reliable minutes in the past 8 years. Bo will need three freshmen to do that next year alone. This is a team unlike any Bo has ever had before.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 25, 2015, 11:17:58 AM
going into 13-14 i guarantee you we were saying "gasser, kaminsky, and dukan have no experience, they won't be any good."
I'll admit I wasn't penciling them into the Final Four, but I didn't say they wouldn't be good. I looked back at my notes, I penciled them in for a 5 seed.
You keep wanting to compare 13-14 to next year. It truly is a bad comparison. I already mentioned the 22 years of experience vs. 14 years of experience. Brew mentioned how much better the efficiency of Wisconsin's returning bench was versus this year. You also act like the cupboard was bare when 12-13 was over. They only lost 42% of their offense that year. Easily replaceable. They lost 66% of their offense this year. The 12-13 team also lost their top rebounder and shot blocker. This year, they are losing their top scorer, rebounder, assister, shot blocker, and three point shooter.
If you don't buy any of those arguments, how about comparing the career minutes of the returning players?
Career Minutes Going into 2013-2014Josh Gasser: 2,184
Ben Brust: 2,013
Traevon Jackson: 1,065
Sam Dekker: 780
Frank Kaminsky: 600
George Marshall: 552
Zak Showalter: 147
Zach Bohannon: 80
Evan Anderson: 73
Duje Dukan: 56
Nigel Hayes: 0
Bronson Koenig: 0
Vitto Brown: 0
TOTAL: 7,550Career Minutes Going into 2015-2016Nigel Hayes: 1,981
Bronson Koenig: 1,724
Zak Showalter: 440
Vitto Brown: 258
Riley Dearring: 39
Jordan Hill: 0
Ethan Happ: 0
Brevin Pritzl: 0
Khalil Iverson: 0
Alex Illikainen: 0
Andy Van Vliet: 0
Charlie Thomas IV: 0
TOTAL: 4,442See the difference yet? There is no comparing the two seasons. This season will be much more difficult for Bo than the 2013-2014 campaign.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 25, 2015, 11:17:58 AM
if you guys want to continue to doubt and question what bo can do that's fine. argue with the results. it's never smart to do, but I'm not going to stop you. until he has a down year, i will continue to not overlook them and pretend they'll be a bubble team. they never are. maybe others will learn that.
I get your argument. Bo has been consistent for years. Why wouldn't he be now? It's simple, because every shred of data says that he has never faced a rebuild like this before and doesn't have the experience or the talent to do it at a level where they earn a high seed or finish in the top 4 of the B1G. Despite this, I still think they make the tourney as a bubble team. Which you may have forgotten, but Bo has been on the bubble before. This wouldn't even be his worst team.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 25, 2015, 07:00:47 PM
just like they had "no one after" jackson/brust in 2013-2014...until they did. and then they went to the final four.
same song and dance every year.
....But they did have people after Jackson/Brust. They had Gasser (who had more career minutes than either of them), they had Sam Dekker (former 5 star recruit who started the season before), and they had Kaminsky (highly efficient bench big man who was third off the bench during the 12-13 season).
So even if Hayes/Koenig is better than Brust/Jackson, Gasser/Dekker/Kaminsky is helluva lot better than Showalter/Brown/Dearring.
You seem to have this impression that people thought the 13-14 Badgers were going to suck. I don't think many predicted the final four, but I really don't remember anyone saying they were going to be bad.
fair enough. i guess we'll agree to disagree.
heard from a little birdie last night that this discussion may be irrelevant and we may never find out whether bo continues his b1g top 4 run or not.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 25, 2015, 07:00:47 PM
just like they had "no one after" jackson/brust in 2013-2014...until they did. and then they went to the final four.
same song and dance every year.
Did you read my post above? They returned two very high efficiency upperclassmen that year in Gasser & Kaminsky as well as a 5-star sophomore in Dekker.
Everyone may have been shocked by Frank, but we shouldn't have been. His offensive efficiency was fantastic and he was an upperclassman. That's Bo's formula for success. He doesn't have that this year. If Vitto Brown becomes the next Frank, it would be shocking because while Frank was excellent in limited minutes, Brown was terrible.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 26, 2015, 06:33:34 AM
fair enough. i guess we'll agree to disagree.
heard from a little birdie last night that this discussion may be irrelevant and we may never find out whether bo continues his b1g top 4 run or not.
Bo will start the season, and Gard will have the reigns by year's end... but that doesn't mean they're going to pull a Bobby-->Pat Knight move.
Quote from: Benny B on June 26, 2015, 09:06:25 AM
Bo will start the season, and Gard will have the reigns by year's end... but that doesn't mean they're going to pull a Bobby-->Pat Knight move.
i won't believe it until i actually officially see it, but hearing bo could be taking care of gard by waiting to announce his retirement until it's too late for the badgers to hire anyone else. but it's probably too late right now, so not sure on that.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 26, 2015, 06:33:34 AM
fair enough. i guess we'll agree to disagree.
heard from a little birdie last night that this discussion may be irrelevant and we may never find out whether bo continues his b1g top 4 run or not.
Wisconsin is leaving the Big Ten?
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 26, 2015, 10:06:01 AM
i won't believe it until i actually officially see it, but hearing bo could be taking care of gard by waiting to announce his retirement until it's too late for the badgers to hire anyone else. but it's probably too late right now, so not sure on that.
Gard is already the heir apparent. Bo doesn't need to do anything with Barry already on board... it's simply a matter of
when they announce the transition.
Quote from: Benny B on June 27, 2015, 08:11:59 AM
Gard is already the heir apparent. Bo doesn't need to do anything with Barry already on board... it's simply a matter of when they announce the transition.
not what i've heard. heard bo and barry clash heads and that when bo moved on there are 2 candidates they would try to throw big money at.
Quote from: WithoutBias on June 27, 2015, 09:56:45 AM
not what i've heard. heard bo and barry clash heads and that when bo moved on there are 2 candidates they would try to throw big money at.
Is Tony Bennett one?
Quote from: LittleWade on June 27, 2015, 05:30:28 PM
Is Tony Bennett one?
Not sure, but Bennett definitely will not be coaching UW
NO VIRGINIA TECH?!?