A girl in my daughter's junior class is interested in MU's PT program. She has a 4.0 GPA with a few AP classes mixed in at one of the top ranked high schools in the state. 28ish on the ACT. Need based aid is going to be zilch.
Her parents want to get a vague idea of how much merit based aid she could possibly get. I have no idea what to tell them. 0%, 25%, 50%?
Anyone have a ballpark clue?
My guess is they will give her the standard Ignatius, which is anywhere from $8k-$12kish a year (I had very similar GPA/ACT and that is what I got). No shame in a 28 on your ACT, but its not going to get you more than that. Gotta crack the 30s if you want elite-level funding from most schools.
There are some college-specific scholarships you can compete for, which may add a little to that. Not sure what the College of Health Sciences has.
Also worth applying for a Burke Scholarship if she is from Wisconsin, but its uber-competitive: http://www.marquette.edu/explore/scholarships-burke.php
Edit: Apparently the Ignatius Scholarship has been renamed the Pere Marquette Award: http://www.marquette.edu/explore/scholarships-ignatius.php
Yeah, this is always a hard lesson for parents of kids like that, but there are A LOT of kids that fit that description. I would agree with Bleuteaux on the amount.
Quote from: MUEng92 on April 07, 2015, 10:01:16 AM
A girl in my daughter's junior class is interested in MU's PT program. She has a 4.0 GPA with a few AP classes mixed in at one of the top ranked high schools in the state. 28ish on the ACT. Need based aid is going to be zilch.
Her parents want to get a vague idea of how much merit based aid she could possibly get. I have no idea what to tell them. 0%, 25%, 50%?
Anyone have a ballpark clue?
I had very similar stats. 30 ACT with a 4.2 weighted 3.3 unweighted GPA at a very good higj school. I got about half maybe a smidge more. If you need any more info feel free to pm me.
My daughter (class of 2014) had a 3.8 GPA with a 32 ACT - MU offered $10,000.
Curious for anyone who knows .. is there a negotiation at all?
I mean .. if you went back to MU and said, Sorry, $10k is not enough, we have $15k from school X..
Does that process exist?
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 08, 2015, 09:44:13 AM
Curious for anyone who knows .. is there a negotiation at all?
I mean .. if you went back to MU and said, Sorry, $10k is not enough, we have $15k from school X..
Does that process exist?
In hindsight, I wish I would have tried that.
In 2004, MU offered me $9k a year, and St. Norbert offered me $15k, a pretty big difference. Tuition + room and board was about $30k at both schools in those days. An extra $6k a year would have made a big difference. I never had any real intention of attending St. Norbert though, so I didn't even think about that.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 08, 2015, 09:44:13 AM
Curious for anyone who knows .. is there a negotiation at all?
I mean .. if you went back to MU and said, Sorry, $10k is not enough, we have $15k from school X..
Does that process exist?
Yes. But you won't be getting $5,000 through that process. Probably $1,000 at most. A better idea would be to go to school X for a year, get good grades there, and try to transfer back. MU will likely give you more money then.
Quote from: ChuckyChip on April 08, 2015, 09:17:50 AM
My daughter (class of 2014) had a 3.8 GPA with a 32 ACT - MU offered $10,000.
I get that MU has become more competitive, but this is disappointing. I would have hoped that the scholarships they were giving are at least keeping pace with inflation. Tuition is rising faster than inflation, and scholarships aren't rising at all.
MU was offering $10,000 in 2004 for students with similar GPAs/ACTs as your daughter. I had a 3.7 and a 29 and got $9k. Tuition plus room and board my freshman year was under $30k (about $28k if I recall correctly). Now it is approaching $50k (http://www.marquette.edu/about/tuition-costs.php). Doesn't seem right that they are only offering your daughter $10k 11 years later, when you consider how much tuition has gone up. If pegged to inflation, that $10k in 2004 is worth about $12,500 now. I would have hoped they were at least maintaining that, while tuition skyrockets.
My soon to be wife and I both make healthy middle class salaries and I don't think my kids will even have the option of attending MU. Which saddens me.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 08, 2015, 09:44:13 AM
Curious for anyone who knows .. is there a negotiation at all?
I mean .. if you went back to MU and said, Sorry, $10k is not enough, we have $15k from school X..
Does that process exist?
She won't have much leverage to negotiate if she is wants PT. I have been told is the toughest program to get into at Marquette. As a matter of fact, I would encourage her to retake the ACT. Not sure a 28 will get you in, at least as a direct admit.
Quote from: Bleuteaux on April 08, 2015, 09:52:33 AM
My soon to be wife and I both make healthy middle class salaries and I don't think my kids will even have the option of attending MU. Which saddens me.
Prepare to be sad. My son is graduating in a couple months. He's been an outstanding student with great grades and test scores. He's been offered a lot of money at a lot of schools. But none of the Jesuit schools he applied to offered enough to be truly competitive with other schools that he's looking at. And one of those Jesuit schools offered him $25k+ per year in scholarship money. I have a good job, and consider us very fortunate. But honestly, we do not believe that any of the Jesuit (or Catholic) schools that my son applied to would be a good financial decision for our son or our family and they've all been eliminated from consideration (he didn't apply to Marquette). His list is down to two schools: a great public school in our state and a private school in North Carolina that has kept its costs down and also offered him a great academic scholarship.
I've been saddened by the process. We have four kids, and made the decision to invest in private elementary and high school. I don't regret that decision that we made. But that obviously leaves less for college and, frankly, we cannot afford most private colleges. But, the two colleges that he's narrowed it down to were his top two pick anyway, so we're very fortunate. Both are very good schools, and we're looking forward to deciding between the two this month.
Edited: Thinking a little more about this, I think the original post came off more negative than intended. We're thrilled with the two schools my son is considering, and are really looking forward to sending him off to one of them this fall. One is a bit more than the other (the one he prefers, of course), but we'll be able to swing it. There are many, many great schools out there at various price points. College is expensive. For some families, certain colleges may be out of their price range. Sure, it saddens me a bit that Marquette might be one of those, but there are some really great options out there.
Quote from: Bleuteaux on April 08, 2015, 09:52:33 AM
MU was offering $10,000 in 2004 for students with similar GPAs/ACTs as your daughter. I had a 3.7 and a 29 and got $9k. Tuition plus room and board my freshman year was under $30k (about $28k if I recall correctly). Now it is approaching $50k (http://www.marquette.edu/about/tuition-costs.php). Doesn't seem right that they are only offering your daughter $10k 11 years later, when you consider how much tuition has gone up. If pegged to inflation, that $10k in 2004 is worth about $12,500 now. I would have hoped they were at least maintaining that, while tuition skyrockets.
Similar here, had a 4.0 / 29 and was given the $9k a decade ago. The CoB also funneled ~$1k scholarships to me in the spring of each year to add a little. So the cost side has gotten worse. I only have limited information, but given the turnover in professors in the CoB and that they still have the same inadequate facilities, I can't see how the return would have kept pace with investment.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on April 08, 2015, 10:15:39 AM
Prepare to be sad. My son is graduating in a couple months. He's been an outstanding student with great grades and test scores. He's been offered a lot of money at a lot of schools. But none of the Jesuit schools he applied to offered enough to be truly competitive with other schools that he's looking at. And one of those Jesuit schools offered him $25k+ per year in scholarship money. I have a good job, and consider us very fortunate. But honestly, we do not believe that any of the Jesuit (or Catholic) schools that my son applied to would be a good financial decision for our son or our family and they've all been eliminated from consideration (he didn't apply to Marquette). His list is down to two schools: a great public school in our state and a private school in North Carolina that has kept its costs down and also offered him a great academic scholarship.
This is exactly why having a larger endowment is such a huge priority for Marquette. Many Catholic schools have fallen behind in that area which is why Marquette can't be more generous with its scholarships. One of my kids went through the exact same process, and it was sad that even though he really likes Marquette, it couldn't be realistic option for him given the quality of the other schools and what they were offering.
Quote from: warriorchick on April 08, 2015, 10:08:39 AM
She won't have much leverage to negotiate if she is wants PT. I have been told is the toughest program to get into at Marquette. As a matter of fact, I would encourage her to retake the ACT. Not sure a 28 will get you in, at least as a direct admit.
Tell her to take the ACT again. The direct admit PT program is extremely difficult to get into. I would guess that her current stats would put her in the bottom quartile, if admitted at all. I don't want to be discouraging at all but I suspect few of the chosen will have written a 28. I do not know about those who start outside PT and then join at a later date or if she considers that a non-starter. I also don't know if there has been any increases in the direct admit class size that could impact admission thresholds. For example, Nursing has been able to go from 100 up to 150 Frosh annually via fundraising and partnership efforts. That's provided opportunities for highly qualified candidates that MU had to pass over in the past. Nursing remains the toughest college to get into by a significant margin. Recall that direct admit PT is a small, highly selective subset of the larger Health Sciences College so apples to oranges.
As to Iggy money, her grade point and ACT would likely put her in the 25%-50% scholly range (tuition only). Marquette will absolutely lag the competition so please be prepared for that.
Hope that helps. Good luck.
ZFB got a $12k iggy in 1996 with a 27 on my act and a 3.0 in high school.
Actually I lied. I only got a 29 on my ACT but I was a direct admit PT student. However, I will say I had the advantage of putting hispanic on my application form. (thanks mom) Didnt realize direct admit PT was such a big deal at MU until people around me said so.
Reinko was just a janitor @ MU, pushing a mop a broom, and solved the occasional equation that a math professor put on a chalkboard. Eventually got in a bit of trouble after getting in a fight down in South Milwaukee, but thank God, this guy showed up to bail me out. http://www.marquette.edu/mscs/facstaff-moyer.shtml
8-)
Quote from: reinko on April 08, 2015, 01:46:54 PM
Reinko was just a janitor @ MU, pushing a mop a broom, and solved the occasional equation that a math professor put on a chalkboard. Eventually got in a bit of trouble after getting in a fight down in South Milwaukee, but thank God, this guy showed up to bail me out. http://www.marquette.edu/mscs/facstaff-moyer.shtml
8-)
RIP Robin :(
Regaurding the financial aspect there's an app that lists every scholarship that you're eligible for. Thousands of scholarships go unused every year so if I were that girl if be researching all those.
Quote from: ChitownJuan on April 08, 2015, 01:27:28 PM
Actually I lied. I only got a 29 on my ACT but I was a direct admit PT student. However, I will say I had the advantage of putting hispanic on my application form. (thanks mom) Didnt realize direct admit PT was such a big deal at MU until people around me said so.
Wow. Standards have really skyrocketed since they let you in! (Teasing you young fella. Crappy day don't you know.)
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 08, 2015, 09:44:13 AM
Curious for anyone who knows .. is there a negotiation at all?
I mean .. if you went back to MU and said, Sorry, $10k is not enough, we have $15k from school X..
Does that process exist?
I asked MU to reconsider what they offered me (wrote a letter explaining why I thought I was a good fit for one of the other awards). They added another $1k/yr. Positive result, but really just a drop in the bucket. It made me feel better about it though.
Wow, a John Moyer reference.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 08, 2015, 09:44:13 AM
Curious for anyone who knows .. is there a negotiation at all?
I mean .. if you went back to MU and said, Sorry, $10k is not enough, we have $15k from school X..
Does that process exist?
This was ~8 years ago, but merely showing up to campus and showing interest got me an extra 3k a year in merit-based scholarship. After my need-based scholarship, MU ended up being cheaper than every public school I toured including Iowa State, Kansas, Wisco and Indiana. Indiana wanted ~40k out of pocket and had no intention of working with my family--dohkay.
I should add this was undergrad.
if it makes any difference, the marquette name does carry, i believe, a little more swagger in these areas. not sure how far of a radius away from milwaukee, but if it makes a difference for anyone who's trying to decide on where to send their sons or daughters, both my sons each got very nice starting opportunities in their respective choices of work. one is a manager of one of the top banks in the nation and could very well be promoted again to a district manager(4 years out), the other, is marketing for a major local company with an international reputation who is also about to get promoted to a regional position(1 year out). one other note of interest, my banking son started out in freshman frontier as he had a little too much fun in high school, but the h.s we sent him to is probably ranked in the top 5 here in wisconsin. we of course, did not receive any financial aid, but i believe the marquette name may have helped them get in the door over others? hard to put a value on that. i know some within their ranges of graduation from other schools struggled to find employment and opportunity within their 1st and 2nd choices of fields of interest, location etc.
Quote from: ChuckyChip on April 08, 2015, 09:17:50 AM
My daughter (class of 2014) had a 3.8 GPA with a 32 ACT - MU offered $10,000.
Very similar to my class of 2014 son. He got $11,000.00. We truly expected him to get more than $11K from MU. But he also got $11,000 as a direct admit to the Kelley School at I4 so he's a Hoosier now. Had MU given enough, he actually would have gone to MU. He still follows the Warriors as much or more than he does I4 hoops. But when MU starts with a higher tuition and only gives the same amount, picking between the #8 undergrad business school v. MU wasn't a difficult choice.
What is "direct admit"? (perhaps, versus waitlisted?)
Off the subject, but semi-appropriate.
I have a sister (MU 85) that lives in Arizona. Her step-daughter is a HS senior with interest in Syracuse, Purdue, ASU, and Marquette. So they came to visit a week ago to get her a MU campus tour.
I picked them up downtown and gave them a tour of MKE and MU. It was a gloomy, rainy evening, and literally 10 seconds into the drive, I am plowing through a tornado of GARBAGE on Wisconsin avenue. "Er, and here's the infamous garbage tornados of WI Ave..." Great start.
I drive her up WI, thru the campus, pointing out the dozen new buildings since I left MU, down Wells, around to Michigan, pointed out the gorgeous law school building .. but .. it made me wonder, what does an 18 y/o kid care about any of these buildings? She wanted to go to Syracuse (but was rejected) with the gorgeous campus .. MU is urban, and frankly, as I tour guided .. ugly. Lots of concrete and buildings. Might be nice in the Spring/summer, but 6+ months of yuck.
We drive downtown to the lakefront, no one is there, it's cold and brown. We drive past Summerfest's gate and I think, man, this tour sucks. Just a bunch of buildings and things that are closed.
I email my sister the next day and figure the tour was for naught, no kid from Arizona, touring in 38 degree cold and rain will find MU anything but craptacular.
Instead, she tells me when the official campus tour was over they asked her if they should book a trip to Purdue.
"Nope, I love this school, I'm going to MU. The end." Shocked.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 11, 2015, 10:54:34 AM
What is "direct admit"? (perhaps, versus waitlisted?)
Direct admit is being immediately admitted to the Kelley School as opposed to being a general admit and needing a 3.3 or better freshmen year (I think that's the standard) to get in after freshmen year.
UW, I believe, doesn't have direct admit at all for business, nursing, or education. That is one of the main reasons my daughter eliminated it from consideration. She didn't want to risk that after two years, she would either have to change majors or transfer.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 11, 2015, 11:10:13 AM
Off the subject, but semi-appropriate.
I have a sister (MU 85) that lives in Arizona. Her step-daughter is a HS senior with interest in Syracuse, Purdue, ASU, and Marquette. So they came to visit a week ago to get her a MU campus tour.
I picked them up downtown and gave them a tour of MKE and MU. It was a gloomy, rainy evening, and literally 10 seconds into the drive, I am plowing through a tornado of GARBAGE on Wisconsin avenue. "Er, and here's the infamous garbage tornados of WI Ave..." Great start.
I drive her up WI, thru the campus, pointing out the dozen new buildings since I left MU, down Wells, around to Michigan, pointed out the gorgeous law school building .. but .. it made me wonder, what does an 18 y/o kid care about any of these buildings? She wanted to go to Syracuse (but was rejected) with the gorgeous campus .. MU is urban, and frankly, as I tour guided .. ugly. Lots of concrete and buildings. Might be nice in the Spring/summer, but 6+ months of yuck.
We drive downtown to the lakefront, no one is there, it's cold and brown. We drive past Summerfest's gate and I think, man, this tour sucks. Just a bunch of buildings and things that are closed.
I email my sister the next day and figure the tour was for naught, no kid from Arizona, touring in 38 degree cold and rain will find MU anything but craptacular.
Instead, she tells me when the official campus tour was over they asked her if they should book a trip to Purdue.
"Nope, I love this school, I'm going to MU. The end." Shocked.
I always feel bad when it is a gloomy or otherwise bad weather day when there is an official prospective student event. Even I think campus looks ugly then.
Quote from: warriorchick on April 11, 2015, 11:21:09 AM
UW, I believe, doesn't have direct admit at all for business, nursing, or education. That is one of the main reasons my daughter eliminated it from consideration. She didn't want to risk that after two years, she would either have to change majors or transfer.
My son is a freshman at UW this year. He was one of about 100 incoming freshmen per year that received a direct admit into the business school at UW. It was the deciding factor in why he decided to go to UW instead of MU. He has been going to MU games all his life and had a very hard time rooting for UW hoops this year. He went to about 5 MU games and 0 UW.
We were very disappointed with the MU scholarships. He had a 4.2 GPA and a 34 on his ACT. If my memory is right, he was offered $18K/year. It was about the same as his cousin who had about a 27 on the ACT, so the ACT score did not seem to make a difference. The University of Miami offered $29K and was his first choice until he got the direct admit to UW. He really wanted to go to MU but it did not make financial sense. I always wondered if we could have negotiated for more money but we never tried. UW made more sense in many ways.
Quote from: LeftyWarrior on April 12, 2015, 06:51:02 AM
He was one of about 100 incoming freshmen per year that received a direct admit into the business school at UW. It was the deciding factor in why he decided to go to UW instead of MU.
Previously, I asked about what "direct admit" means .. so I thought I got it. You're admitted to the program as a Freshman, instead of waiting a year (?) / getting decent grades to "get in" to that program.
I suppose it makes sense if the program is limited/small, where they only accept <100 students or something, as Physical Therapy was used as an example.
LeftyWarrior .. I don't get why being "directly admitted to the UW business school" would be a "deciding factor". Doesn't the business school admit pretty much everyone who makes it to UW?
Still confused.
-- That's pretty strange that a 27 ACT student got near the same scholarship as a 34 ACT student, since 27 is roughly MU's average, and 34 is elite.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 12, 2015, 09:58:35 AM
LeftyWarrior .. I don't get why being "directly admitted to the UW business school" would be a "deciding factor". Doesn't the business school admit pretty much everyone who makes it to UW?
The UW business school accepts some as direct admits, but others who are selected to the UW but not to the business school, are considered "pre-business" majors until they complete a pre-business curriculum. Even then they have to apply for admission to the business school.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on April 12, 2015, 11:00:36 AM
The UW business school accepts some as direct admits, but others who are selected to the UW but not to the business school, are considered "pre-business" majors until they complete a pre-business curriculum. Even then they have to apply for admission to the business school.
Gotcha .. question: Do any pre-business get rejected? (I'd imagine if you got rejected, your grades are so bad you're likely looking for a new life path anyhow..) .. So .. why would direct-admit to business be valuable?
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 12, 2015, 04:22:31 PM
Gotcha .. question: Do any pre-business get rejected? (I'd imagine if you got rejected, your grades are so bad you're likely looking for a new life path anyhow..) .. So .. why would direct-admit to business be valuable?
My daughter was told at UW that the nursing program was so competitive, there were applicants who had a 3.7 average through the first 3 semesters of college that didn't get in. I don't know how hard it is at Kelley or the other programs at UW.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 12, 2015, 04:22:31 PM
Gotcha .. question: Do any pre-business get rejected? (I'd imagine if you got rejected, your grades are so bad you're likely looking for a new life path anyhow..) .. So .. why would direct-admit to business be valuable?
Pre-business kids do get rejected. They can major in something else or transfer to major in business.
A direct admit is valuable because then you don't have to take the pre-business classes nor do you have to go through the application process. I believe most direct admits have a ACT around 30. It's not easy.
http://www.vox.com/2015/4/7/8355247/college-admissions-terrible-preferences
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 12, 2015, 04:22:31 PM
Gotcha .. question: Do any pre-business get rejected? (I'd imagine if you got rejected, your grades are so bad you're likely looking for a new life path anyhow..) .. So .. why would direct-admit to business be valuable?
lots do. they are the people that end up with their degree in human ecology.
School of Human Ecology
Community and Nonprofit Leadership
Human Development and Family Studies
Individual Major
Interior Architecture
Personal Finance
Retailing
Textiles and Fashion Design
Wow, I (clearly) had no idea the UW School of Business for undergrads was that competitive.
I don't recall something like that in the late 80s for MU. As I can recall, you didn't get admitted to the B school, you declared a major and that was that. -- Has that changed?
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on April 12, 2015, 07:20:42 PM
lots do. they are the people that end up with their degree in human ecology.
School of Human Ecology
Community and Nonprofit Leadership
Human Development and Family Studies
Individual Major
Interior Architecture
Personal Finance
Retailing
Textiles and Fashion Design
Yeah, they called that "Home Economics" back in the day when my mom majored in it.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 12, 2015, 07:48:40 PM
Wow, I (clearly) had no idea the UW School of Business for undergrads was that competitive.
I don't recall something like that in the late 80s for MU. As I can recall, you didn't get admitted to the B school, you declared a major and that was that. -- Has that changed?
For business? No. But Physical Therapy has a similar process to UW's business school. At some schools you can get direct admit to a College, but you have to hit certain GPAs to declare a certain major.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on April 12, 2015, 08:44:51 PM
For business? No. But Physical Therapy has a similar process to UW's business school. At some schools you can get direct admit to a College, but you have to hit certain GPAs to declare a certain major.
There is no direct admit program for the physician's assistant program at MU, either.
Weighted GPAs bug the sh!t out of me. I can't take any number over 4 seriously. It means nothing to me
Quote from: Bleuteaux on April 12, 2015, 11:23:21 PM
Weighted GPAs bug the sh!t out of me. I can't take any number over 4 seriously. It means nothing to me
Where do the weights come from?
Quote from: Eldon on April 13, 2015, 12:33:51 AM
Where do the weights come from?
Honors and AP classes. in a weighted GPA system, honors classes are based on a 5 point scale so an a is a 5.0 and in APs an A is equivalent to a 6.0
Quote from: Bleuteaux on April 12, 2015, 11:23:21 PM
Weighted GPAs bug the sh!t out of me. I can't take any number over 4 seriously. It means nothing to me
I agree. Any scale over 4.0 should be abolished. They exist to try and force kids to take AP courses. A schools ranking is largely based on how many AP tests their students take as a percentage of the class size.
Some schools go so far as to pay for the tests for their students.
Quote from: forgetful on April 13, 2015, 01:21:09 AM
I agree. Any scale over 4.0 should be abolished. They exist to try and force kids to take AP courses. A schools ranking is largely based on how many AP tests their students take as a percentage of the class size.
Some schools go so far as to pay for the tests for their students.
I don't know why you'd suggest anyone is forced. It's an enticement to take a harder class, and be rewarded.
Possibly receiving college credits via AP classes/credits .. could be a quite significant reward, monetarily, and time savings later in college.
Quote from: ChitownLee on April 13, 2015, 12:44:19 AM
Honors and AP classes. in a weighted GPA system, honors classes are based on a 5 point scale so an a is a 5.0 and in APs an A is equivalent to a 6.0
That's not universal. The idea, yes. Your numbers, no.
Quote from: Bleuteaux on April 12, 2015, 11:23:21 PM
Weighted GPAs bug the sh!t out of me. I can't take any number over 4 seriously. It means nothing to me
Agree, it's stupid. Might help high school rankings, but even more complicated that some high schools allow students to take actual courses at local colleges which don't count towards GPA. I brought in 18 credits when I actually went to college, of which my high school paid for completely. Including books, so technically I made money since I could pocket from selling them back.
Quote from: drewm88 on April 13, 2015, 08:10:59 AM
That's not universal. The idea, yes. Your numbers, no.
My kids' high school didn't give out 6's for AP A's. Honors and AP classes were both 5 for an A. Some schools don't weight at all. That is certainly not fair, either. An A in PE shouldn't count towards your GPA as an A in AP Chemistry. This has got to make it hell for admissions counselors.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 12, 2015, 07:48:40 PM
Wow, I (clearly) had no idea the UW School of Business for undergrads was that competitive.
I remember kids that I went to HS with stressing because they knew people with 3.3-3.5s their first year at UW that weren't admitted to the business school, at least initially. So I don't know if it has gotten more or less competitive since then. Its interesting considering UW's undergrad business school isn't all that highly ranked, well behind the likes of Kelly or Ross's undergrad schools.
My undergrad business school was top 15 ranked and you applied after freshman year. If you were below a certain grade cutoff, they had what they called the "portfolio program". Basically it was an extended appeal during the first semester of sophomore year where you compiled relevant grades, work experience, and extra-curriculars to demonstrate why you should be admitted outside of pure GPA. Most kids who had decent grades were accepted through that method pretty easily. I knew one kid who had a 2.5 after freshman year, but became very involved, got a 3.8 his first semester of sophomore year, was admitted through portfolio, and ended up graduating with honors.
Quote from: warriorchick on April 13, 2015, 09:11:16 AM
My kids' high school didn't give out 6's for AP A's. Honors and AP classes were both 5 for an A. Some schools don't weight at all. That is certainly not fair, either. An A in PE shouldn't count towards your GPA as an A in AP Chemistry. This has got to make it hell for admissions counselors.
5.0 for both honors and AP is much more common in my experience. Agreed that unweighted often isn't fair, but I"ll say that every admissions department worth its salt has figured out how to quickly translate GPA's into something that makes sense for them.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 13, 2015, 08:03:49 AM
I don't know why you'd suggest anyone is forced. It's an enticement to take a harder class, and be rewarded.
Possibly receiving college credits via AP classes/credits .. could be a quite significant reward, monetarily, and time savings later in college.
Many of the AP classes do not yield AP credits at the Universities. The courses are becoming exceedingly watered down. Also, students can only get so many total AP credits.
Also, as a consequence the non-AP classes that are equivalent (especially in the sciences) get so watered down that many of the students cannot succeed in the college course once they get there. Even the AP courses are taught to try to beat the AP exam and not master the material; many of those students then struggle in the courses that require the AP course as a prerequisite.
Like many things, the AP courses were a nice idea, but they are becoming a sham of what they were intended.
Pretty confident that admissions has all this AP/non AP stuff figured out. But for those parents of HS kids just learning about the 'direct admit' undergrad angle (so different from our era 'back in the day') it's absolutely worth paying attention. There's been some good info in this thread and hopefully it raises awareness levels as we try to gently guide our kids.
Quote from: forgetful on April 13, 2015, 10:09:44 AM
Many of the AP classes do not yield AP credits at the Universities. The courses are becoming exceedingly watered down. Also, students can only get so many total AP credits.
Also, as a consequence the non-AP classes that are equivalent (especially in the sciences) get so watered down that many of the students cannot succeed in the college course once they get there. Even the AP courses are taught to try to beat the AP exam and not master the material; many of those students then struggle in the courses that require the AP course as a prerequisite.
Like many things, the AP courses were a nice idea, but they are becoming a sham of what they were intended.
I probably wouldn't want AP credit directly related to my intended major. But I can't tell you how many times my son's HS AP credit in Stats has shown up in his curriculum planner as a completed requirement thus allowing him to skip college level math and focus on other things.
Late to the thread but have a bunch of direct experience with the various topics.
First, weighted grades. I think they need to either be eliminated or be 100% universal across the country. I get wanting to incentivize harder classes(though AP gives college credit if you do well on the test, that should be enough)....but it doesn't really work that way.
I started school in Florida in the International Baccalaureate program and those were considered honors classes so an A was 4.0 with a 0.16 adder for honors. When I moved to Illinois half way through my freshman year I went to the local high school (only IB program was an all girls school 60 minutes away....believe me I tried to get in) and the GPA set up was 4.0 for an A 0.5 adder for honors and 0.83 for AP (0.33+honors).
Not knowing any better they just took my GPA number (4.16) and used that instead of recalculating it in their model(4.50). It didn't matter because I got into all the schools I wanted to, but that difference turned out to be the difference between me graduating top 5 in my class versus top 20.
Grade inflation is a problem and that's why so many schools rely on the testing because they don't trust the GPAs and nobody has time for the transcripts(other than a quick once over).
My wife went PT through Madison and has a bunch of recent grad MU PT co-workers. PT is a very hard major to get into, especially through direct admit regardless of school. Anything south of 30 on the ACT is very likely not going to cut it. On top of that, your kid should be very sure PT is what they want because if they have to change majors, could be very tough to stay away from a 6 year track because a lot of the courses are pretty unique.
There's no need to weight grades. Schools see your transcripts. They know what classes you took. If you got a 3.7 in honors classes they can see the difference between a 3.7 in all woodshop and auto classes. It isn't that hard. Weighting just makes students even more apples to oranges against students who are not weighted.
See our entire high school was made up of honors or AP courses. There werent any regular classes to take besides PE. So everybody at my school was at least on a 5 point scale. I dont mind it at all, really dont see what the big deal is.
Quote from: warriorchick on April 13, 2015, 09:11:16 AM
My kids' high school didn't give out 6's for AP A's. Honors and AP classes were both 5 for an A. Some schools don't weight at all. That is certainly not fair, either. An A in PE shouldn't count towards your GPA as an A in AP Chemistry. This has got to make it hell for admissions counselors.
None of this matters. Colleges look at the curriculum you take and grade it accordingly. My kids high school didn't weight grading and they weren't hampered in any way.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on April 13, 2015, 02:56:22 PM
None of this matters. Colleges look at the curriculum you take and grade it accordingly. My kids high school didn't weight grading and they weren't hampered in any way.
I'll take your word for it, then what the hell does GPA show up on college applications? I mean it's gotta have some sort of impact. If I have someone with a 3.0 taking honors classes and someone with a 4.0 not taking honors courses....how does that get compared?
Quote from: mu03LEE on April 13, 2015, 03:02:31 PM
I'll take your word for it, then what the hell does GPA show up on college applications? I mean it's gotta have some sort of impact. If I have someone with a 3.0 taking honors classes and someone with a 4.0 not taking honors courses....how does that get compared?
Probably just as a quick reference point. But most of the time the course grades are plugged into a program that weights them according to the metric that the college wants to use. So if one student gets a weighted 4.6 GPA, but took the same courses as the unweighted 3.8 GPA student, there is a method that they use to judge them side by side.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on April 13, 2015, 03:07:52 PM
Probably just as a quick reference point. But most of the time the course grades are plugged into a program that weights them according to the metric that the college wants to use. So if one student gets a weighted 4.6 GPA, but took the same courses as the unweighted 3.8 GPA student, there is a method that they use to judge them side by side.
Cool, good to know, thanks for the insight. Haven't talked to my admissions friends in a while.
Grade inflation creates similar issues for employers (and probably for colleges too). There are two local law schools. We know very well that one has very inflated grades and a generous curve, and the other does not. We have a general idea how GPAs from the two schools compare. However, it's one of the reasons I really like to see class rank, because it lets me know how someone compares to their "competition" at school.
I would imagine that colleges are also pretty well-versed on how to compare students from weighted and non-weighted schools. Also, some schools don't weight nearly as much as others. My kids' school tops out at 4.8 for an A+ in an AP class, but other area schools go higher -- as high as 6.0, I think. But, of course, the standardized tests are the great equalizer.
I can see the reason for weighted grades, but like Sultan said, I suspect that college admissions people are sharp enough to know that if a kid has a 4.0 in a bunch of honors/AP classes, he or she has a stronger academic record that a kid with the same GPA in a bunch of remedial classes.