Sad. Was involved in Little League a bunch with my son, including the All-Star level. We took this stuff very seriously. The rules are crystal clear on boundaries...ironclad. I hate when this stuff happens, because it deprives another team that played by the rules.
Little League strips Chicago team of US Championship
http://espn.go.com/chicago/story/_/id/12308988/little-league-strips-chicago-team-us-championship-suspends-coach
The biggest problem with youth sports are the parents. With my youth sports days well behind me, I look back on it sometimes and think "WTF was that even about?"
And I have never had much love for the official Little League organization. Way too much focus on the all-star season and the tournament leading up to the LLWS. I think the couple years that my kids played in it, their season was done by late June. Really?
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on February 11, 2015, 08:42:30 AM
The biggest problem with youth sports are the parents. With my youth sports days well behind me, I look back on it sometimes and think "WTF was that even about?"
And I have never had much love for the official Little League organization. Way too much focus on the all-star season and the tournament leading up to the LLWS. I think the couple years that my kids played in it, their season was done by late June. Really?
I don't mind the timing, much of that is dictated by the weather throughout the nation to get the regular season in. We start out here in February, obviously many states can't do that.
Little League has its own challenges now with Pony and other "real baseball" rules that are sucking kids out of LL at a huge rate. They are going to have to adapt the rules to keep kids playing in the league and not be solely dedicated to their travel ball teams.
They weren't the only team doing this. They're simply the team that won doing it so they got called out. That doesn't make it right but there are basically no consequences so other teams are going to keep doing it in the future. Is Little League going to take back the kids' once-in-a-lifetime meeting with the President?
It sucks but what can you do? Parents typically ruin youth sports.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 11, 2015, 08:56:19 AM
I don't mind the timing, much of that is dictated by the weather throughout the nation to get the regular season in. We start out here in February, obviously many states can't do that.
Little League has its own challenges now with Pony and other "real baseball" rules that are sucking kids out of LL at a huge rate. They are going to have to adapt the rules to keep kids playing in the league and not be solely dedicated to their travel ball teams.
Not only adapt their rules, but adapt their priorities IMO. The travel ball teams IMO are pretty much straight forward in their purpose - to play a lot of games against quality competition in order to improve the personal and team baseball quality. I can understand that.
LL seems to straddle between "universal access" and this tournament, which has become a huge money maker for the organization. And on top of it all, you have a governance organization that makes Greece look like a well-oiled machine.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on February 11, 2015, 09:01:23 AM
They weren't the only team doing this. They're simply the team that won doing it so they got called out. That doesn't make it right but there are basically no consequences so other teams are going to keep doing it in the future. Is Little League going to take back the kids' once-in-a-lifetime meeting with the President?
It sucks but what can you do? Parents typically ruin youth sports.
Methinks it would not be that hard, to do a quick analysis of every US team say right before the LLWS began, to ensure no shady business is going on, to avoid something like this. That is 8 teams, about what, 25 kids a team? Telling me you can't look into 200 kids over the course of a few days?
Maybe parents having to sign affidavit's saying their child is eligible to play?
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on February 11, 2015, 08:42:30 AM
The biggest problem with youth sports are the parents. With my youth sports days well behind me, I look back on it sometimes and think "WTF was that even about?"
And I have never had much love for the official Little League organization. Way too much focus on the all-star season and the tournament leading up to the LLWS. I think the couple years that my kids played in it, their season was done by late June. Really?
I thought it was bad when my 5 year old played fall baseball this past Sept/Oct... they were having the kids pitch (after 4 balls, the coach would step in at least), which, OK, I'm fine with the concept of giving them some exposure to that aspect of the game. Practices were 2x a week and there was a game every Saturday and Sunday, which was a far cry from his summer t-ball league that had one practice and one game a week. But what I thought was a simple township, intramural baseball league turned into a travel league. When I saw the game schedule the first time, I didn't even recognize half of the places where we were playing "away" games. All of this together seemed a little intense for five year olds, but they were having fun, so I have no regrets.
Then I remembered some of the people I work with who have taken their teenage and pre-teen kids to soccer, baseball, softball and gymnastics tournaments in Las Vegas, Palm Springs, Cancun, Boca Raton, etc. The problem with youth sports today isn't too many practices, too many games, or too intense competition at an early age... it's that in a lot of places, it truly isn't about the kids anymore.
Quote from: reinko on February 11, 2015, 09:11:34 AM
Methinks it would not be that hard, to do a quick analysis of every US team say right before the LLWS began, to ensure no shady business is going on, to avoid something like this. That is 8 teams, about what, 25 kids a team? Telling me you can't look into 200 kids over the course of a few days?
Maybe parents having to sign affidavit's saying their child is eligible to play?
Isn't that what the district administrators are supposed to be doing?
Sadly nothing new under the sun. 50 years ago this summer (1965) I played in the Colt League World Series for Northbrook, Il. Riverside, Ca., Houston and Greensboro, NC were the other participants. Greensboro won but was later stripped of the title. IIRC they had 2 players (one of them their star pitcher) who were overage. Kids/teenagers play, adults cheat.
The primary issue I have is that the cheating was totally worth it. If they had played fair, missed the LLWS and that was that then they don't get to meet the President and First Lady, they don't get honored before MLB games, their league doesn't get hundreds of thousands of dollars in donations, they don't see themselves on SportsCenter, they're not a national news story, etc.
They have to give back a trophy and the coach can't coach LL next year? Who cares? If someone said that your son/daughter could have those experiences, wouldn't you try to get away with cheating too? At the very least, you'd think long and hard about it, right?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on February 11, 2015, 12:08:15 PM
They have to give back a trophy and the coach can't coach LL next year? Who cares? If someone said that your son/daughter could have those experiences, wouldn't you try to get away with cheating too? At the very least, you'd think long and hard about it, right?
Honestly, I wouldn't cheat for that purpose at all.
I mean, I love my kids and still do a lot for them. But the one lesson I try to impart is that the only way life usually gets better is when you have to work for it.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on February 11, 2015, 12:17:48 PM
I mean, I love my kids and still do a lot for them. But the one lesson I try to impart is that the only way life usually gets better is when you have to work for it.
But they still had to work for it. They weren't using corked bats, or PEDs, or even kids that were overage. It was a player or two from a neighborhood a few streets over. This kids still faced a lot of adversity and dug in to come back from a pretty crushing defeat to the Vegas team they eventually beat for the title. These kids didn't explicitly cheat and still played their asses off.
Quote from: JWags85 on February 11, 2015, 01:17:46 PM
But they still had to work for it. They weren't using corked bats, or PEDs, or even kids that were overage. It was a player or two from a neighborhood a few streets over. This kids still faced a lot of adversity and dug in to come back from a pretty crushing defeat to the Vegas team they eventually beat for the title. These kids didn't explicitly cheat and still played their asses off.
Merritt's labelled it "cheating" and asked if a parent would "cheat" given the benefits.
The LL officials involved "cheated." The parents allowed them to "cheat" with their kids. The kids probably knew, but when your parents and your coach allows it, you find a way to justify it in your mind.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on February 11, 2015, 01:23:38 PM
Merritt's labelled it "cheating" and asked if a parent would "cheat" given the benefits.
The LL officials involved "cheated." The parents allowed them to "cheat" with their kids. The kids probably knew, but when your parents and your coach allows it, you find a way to justify it in your mind.
I should have been clearer in my post and phrased it as: "If someone said that your son/daughter could have those experiences, wouldn't you try to get away with
this type of cheating or something similar too? At the very least, you'd think long and hard about it, right?"
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on February 11, 2015, 01:40:56 PM
I should have been clearer in my post and phrased it as: "If someone said that your son/daughter could have those experiences, wouldn't you try to get away with this type of cheating or something similar too? At the very least, you'd think long and hard about it, right?"
Personally, I would not. But I know that I am in the minority in that regard.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on February 11, 2015, 01:40:56 PM
I should have been clearer in my post and phrased it as: "If someone said that your son/daughter could have those experiences, wouldn't you try to get away with this type of cheating or something similar too? At the very least, you'd think long and hard about it, right?"
As a dad (albeit of a 6 month old), my first instinct is no. Not too sound so high and mighty, but the example you set for your kid, that cheating or bending rules, to get stuff can do a ton of harm. What would stop them from cheating on a test, breaking the law...again, not saying that fudging your zip code for Little League will turn you into the next Jeffrey Dahmer, but kids are way smarter these days than they used to be. If you give a millimeter, they will take a mile.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on February 11, 2015, 01:40:56 PM
I should have been clearer in my post and phrased it as: "If someone said that your son/daughter could have those experiences, wouldn't you try to get away with this type of cheating or something similar too? At the very least, you'd think long and hard about it, right?"
No. I want my kids to be proud of me and how I raised them. And I want them to know the difference between right and wrong.
Think about being on your deathbed, as you ponder how you raised your kids and how they'll think about you when you're gone....
Everyone should turn on 670, there's radio gold coming.
This is all about racism now.
Sadly, many parents start cheating on behalf of their kids at an early age. Guys will actually coach travelling or all star teams in all sports to make sure junior's on the team.
Quote from: PandTandMand... on February 11, 2015, 02:21:15 PM
Everyone should turn on 670, there's radio gold coming.
Best press conference coverage since Dr. Death.
Quote from: Blue Horseshoe on February 11, 2015, 02:31:38 PM
Best press conference coverage since Dr. Death.
+1, which wasn't long ago.
That last caller was goooood. This is only going to be better.
Quote from: PandTandMand... on February 11, 2015, 02:21:15 PM
Everyone should turn on 670, there's radio gold coming.
This is all about racism now.
Ugh... This is just getting sad and predictable.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 11, 2015, 08:39:38 AM
Sad. Was involved in Little League a bunch with my son, including the All-Star level. We took this stuff very seriously. The rules are crystal clear on boundaries...ironclad. I hate when this stuff happens, because it deprives another team that played by the rules.
Little League strips Chicago team of US Championship
http://espn.go.com/chicago/story/_/id/12308988/little-league-strips-chicago-team-us-championship-suspends-coach
Had to come out of haitus to respond to this bull crap. Its not the kids fault. They didnt know so why punish them? They just wanted to play ball. So please continue on your self-righteous pilgrimage. The only reason this happened is because the cake eaters from Las Vegas bitched and moaned and Kristi Black was a sore loser and had enough time on her hands to research Chicago district lines. I dont believe a word out of her mouth that they dont care about getting the championship.
Chitown Out.
Quote from: ChitownJuan on February 11, 2015, 03:11:20 PM
Had to come out of haitus to respond to this bull crap. Its not the kids fault. They didnt know so why punish them? They just wanted to play ball. So please continue on your self-righteous pilgrimage. The only reason this happened is because the cake eaters from Las Vegas bitched and moaned and Kristi Black was a sore loser and had enough time on her hands to research Chicago district lines. I dont believe a word out of her mouth that they dont care about getting the championship.
Chitown Out.
You couldn't be more wrong.
This happened because the Village of Lynwood hung a sign congratulating a player for being on the team. Another area LL manager saw it and asked questions. DNA Chicago looked at it and discovered all the problems.
Las Vegas had nothing to do with it until DNA Chicago did the legwork.
Quote from: ChitownJuan on February 11, 2015, 03:11:20 PM
Had to come out of haitus to respond to this bull crap. Its not the kids fault. They didnt know so why punish them? They just wanted to play ball. So please continue on your self-righteous pilgrimage. The only reason this happened is because the cake eaters from Las Vegas bitched and moaned and Kristi Black was a sore loser and had enough time on her hands to research Chicago district lines. I dont believe a word out of her mouth that they dont care about getting the championship.
Chitown Out.
A coach from Evergreen Park was actually the "whistle blower."
It is ridiculous and pathetic that coaches and parents would manipulate or in any use these kids so they can have the glory of coaching a winning little league team. Just completely pathetic.
Quote from: ChitownJuan on February 11, 2015, 03:11:20 PM
Had to come out of haitus to respond to this bull crap. Its not the kids fault. They didnt know so why punish them? They just wanted to play ball.
Then let's just give every kid a trophy. I mean, hell, they didn't earn it fair and square, but it's not their fault... they shouldn't be punished just because their team lost or they weren't good enough to even make the team.
But here's the real reason: "moral hazard." Sure, it sucks to be the example, but if you don't make an example out of someone, others will follow. In other words, if you don't punish these kids - even if they weren't at fault - you are effectively punishing everyone who chooses not to cheat in the future.
According to former MLBer and South Holland native Mark Mulder, this has long been a common practice by JRW going back at least 25ish years to his playing days.
Quote from: ChitownJuan on February 11, 2015, 03:11:20 PM
Had to come out of haitus to respond to this bull crap. Its not the kids fault. They didnt know so why punish them? They just wanted to play ball. So please continue on your self-righteous pilgrimage. The only reason this happened is because the cake eaters from Las Vegas bitched and moaned and Kristi Black was a sore loser and had enough time on her hands to research Chicago district lines. I dont believe a word out of her mouth that they dont care about getting the championship.
Chitown Out.
It would be helpful if you could keep your facts straight next time you check back in.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on February 11, 2015, 09:03:09 AM
Not only adapt their rules, but adapt their priorities IMO. The travel ball teams IMO are pretty much straight forward in their purpose - to play a lot of games against quality competition in order to improve the personal and team baseball quality. I can understand that.
LL seems to straddle between "universal access" and this tournament, which has become a huge money maker for the organization. And on top of it all, you have a governance organization that makes Greece look like a well-oiled machine.
To me it is both, but definitely universal access is priority one. At least in our town and surrounding leagues. A place where kids of all levels can come and play, get guaranteed innings, etc. No question the all-stars thing is a big deal. It was really big in our league, we had a 10 year NFL player as one of our coaches and was intense as hell. A lot of kids in the O.C. over the years have played in LL All-Stars and gone on to play in the Major Leagues, so there is that aspect no question.
What we began to see is a lot of kids playing LL and travel ball, so overlapping like crazy. Too much stress on the arms and taking away the kid aspect if you ask me. I wouldn't let my son do both at the same time. One or the other, pick.
Merrit is right that other leagues sometimes do it, but it is just stupid. So easy to get caught and so many people out there that will turn you in. It's stupid to even go down that path. Parents.
Quote from: ChitownJuan on February 11, 2015, 03:11:20 PM
Had to come out of haitus to respond to this bull crap. Its not the kids fault. They didnt know so why punish them? They just wanted to play ball. So please continue on your self-righteous pilgrimage. The only reason this happened is because the cake eaters from Las Vegas bitched and moaned and Kristi Black was a sore loser and had enough time on her hands to research Chicago district lines. I dont believe a word out of her mouth that they dont care about getting the championship.
Chitown Out.
I've never understood this. First of all, I'd be stunned if SOME of the kids didn't know. The reason is simple, because they prep the kids to answer it a certain way. We ran into this with some rival leagues, and the kids are coached to say they live with Grandma who is in the district, when they clearly don't live with grandma.
And who are you supposed to punish? Just the adults? That never works. That's the same BS argument about not punishing a university's team because of what happened 5 years ago. Of course you do, because IT HURTS. That's what a punishment is supposed to do....HURT! Bring a little shame. Make sure it doesn't happen again, or at least give pause to people before they do it again. Do you honestly think punishing the parents matters? Give me a break. The parents are only involved until the kids are 12 in LL anyway. So that's a risk easy to take, because they move on to another level.
Plus, it was someone from Illinois that blew the whistle. So glad you checked back in to clear up the BS.
Sorry, I could not disagree with you more on this.
I have coached kids who played at a national level at that age. What are we teaching them if we allow someone to bend the rules? LL seems to have a cheating scandal every so often because adults let their desires and ambition get in the way. I had parents who used to berate me because I didn't climb all over umps who made bad calls. My response was we were there to teach more than fundamentals of the sport.
For those who think it's ok to do what JRW parents did and it's wrong to take it away from the kids, what about the kids who got passed over to play for JRW? they could have had an opportunity to play in the LLWS and meet the POTUS (if for some reason that was something they wanted to do). How about the teams from Indiana and Las Vegas that didn't get to go to the next round because of a team that was put together unfairly? They don't get to experience all of what JRW got. Maybe if JRW was put together with all kids from its district, they win anyway. Or maybe they lose and other kids get to have the spotlight on them.
For those who think it's racist to strip them of the title (Jesse Jackson, Fr. Pflager, etc.) think again. It's about doing the right thing for everyone. The kids from JRW don't deserve it any more than kids from any other team.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on February 11, 2015, 03:15:15 PM
A coach from Evergreen Park was actually the "whistle blower."
And for the people crying racism (not here mind you), I believe I heard that this coach is married to a black woman.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on February 12, 2015, 08:22:56 AM
And for the people crying racism (not here mind you), I believe I heard that this coach is married to a black woman.
You heard right.
I didn't even think of the racist angle until reading that here. People are saying that? Geezus.
When in doubt....throw it out.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 12, 2015, 09:00:24 AM
I didn't even think of the racist angle until reading that hear. People are saying that? Geezus.
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2015/02/11/rev-jackson-jrw-parent-suggest-decision-to-take-title-racially-motivated/
Yep. Complete with a Jesse Jackson appearance. The counters to this are very obvious. Who has motivation to make this a racial issue? And LL has banned majority white teams previously...like just last year.
http://www.thecitizen.com/articles/08-01-2014/peachtree-city-teams-dreams-dashed-due-paperwork-error
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 11, 2015, 07:52:19 PM
Merrit is right that other leagues sometimes do it, but it is just stupid. So easy to get caught and so many people out there that will turn you in. It's stupid to even go down that path. Parents.
Stupid? Stupid because it's easy to get caught? Stupid because so many people "out there" might turn you in? Once the discussion gets to the "Is this smart or stupid? Will we or will we not get caught?" stage it means the larger question - "Is this right or wrong and does that matter" has been answered with a "Who cares" and a "No".
Fr. Flager, Rev Jackson, Chitown Juan and others can cry "for the kids". I do too. Not because their title was stripped, but because they're stuck with parents, coaches, sympathizers and even pastors without any ethics. Even after being caught cheating, these adult's lesson to the kids isn't play fair, cheating has consequences - instead, it's there's nothing wrong with cheating, this is all about racism. What chance do these kids have to be healthy, productive adults when that crap is shoved down their throats?
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on February 12, 2015, 09:05:27 AM
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2015/02/11/rev-jackson-jrw-parent-suggest-decision-to-take-title-racially-motivated/
Yep. Complete with a Jesse Jackson appearance. The counters to this are very obvious. Who has motivation to make this a racial issue? And LL has banned majority white teams previously...like just last year.
http://www.thecitizen.com/articles/08-01-2014/peachtree-city-teams-dreams-dashed-due-paperwork-error
Jackson, et al's business model is to play the race card. There isn't a legitimate issue here but since the entire team is black, we get Jesse Jackson on the news for another night. Most of my friends of color vehemently deny that Sharpton, Jackson, etc represent black people. They simply make money off of their misfortunes.
The unfortunate thing here is that, yes, the entire team is black. Which was and still is truly a wonderful thing that we should be thankful for. Baseball desperately needs diversity at the lower levels and I think that all of the publicity they got could only help that cause. I just hope that this whole racism thing doesn't get completely blown out of proportion and ruin any of the progress that was made.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on February 12, 2015, 09:05:27 AM
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2015/02/11/rev-jackson-jrw-parent-suggest-decision-to-take-title-racially-motivated/
Yep. Complete with a Jesse Jackson appearance. The counters to this are very obvious. Who has motivation to make this a racial issue? And LL has banned majority white teams previously...like just last year.
http://www.thecitizen.com/articles/08-01-2014/peachtree-city-teams-dreams-dashed-due-paperwork-error
Thanks for sharing. Not surprised by the actors involved.
And now the lawsuit...cuz, you know, it was at least partially because of race. ::)
A really good summary of what is going on here. It is really sad.
http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20150624/west-pullman/reporter-barred-from-jackie-robinson-press-conference-still-has-questions