Nick isn't playing at all & Heldt is playing at Neenah.
Personally I think both of them could use a redshirt. But with no depth, that likely isn't in the cards.
Who has seen either play recently?
Nobody has seen NN play recently.
Heldt has good size(thicker than you would think for a 6'10" kid from Neenah), good feet, and can shoot the mid range jumper.
He isn't the fastest guy that I have ever seen, however at this point for a big, I would rather have good footwork.
Nick is the more college-ready in terms of basketball. But, if he does make it to campus, a redshirt year might not be the worst thing for him as a person.
Heldt will turn into a nice player, and going up against Henry and Fischer in practice will definitely help him.
I wonder if NN even makes it to campus.
Quote from: We R Final Four on February 03, 2015, 09:37:45 AM
Heldt has good size(thicker than you would think for a 6'10" kid from Neenah), good feet, and can shoot the mid range jumper.
He isn't the fastest guy that I have ever seen, however at this point for a big, I would rather have good footwork.
http://youtu.be/K6HeN1hHvNc
This is from a couple months ago. He looks glued to the floor, is this video a fair assumption of his athleticism? For those who have seen Heldt play
He will be a nice back-up the next two years, possibly start as a junior. 10-15 minute guy next few years, good pick-up.
I'm not sure what "and Heldt plays at Nennah" means but it seems like you mean to say his competition and team must suck. Neenah lost in the WIAA D1 State Championship and had a shot in the closing seconds to tie Germantown, whose 3rd straight State Title that was and who lost I believe a total of 3 games in those 3 years. Neenah is once again ranked right near the top of the state and played Germantown in a very close game earlier this year. Him playing for Neenah is a good thing not a bad thing.
Matt Heldt is exactly the type of player we've been mocking the Badgers for recruiting over the last 15 years.
That means he'll probably look like a goof for the first two years, become a solid role player his junior season with fantastic fundamentals, and then somehow average 14 and 7 his senior year, while knocking down several game-winning 3 point shots against all the teams whose fans made fun of him on their message boards.
As of right now, with Heldt and Noskowiak and assuming no transfers, MU has a 10-man roster for next year.
Redshirting them leaves 8.
Does anyone think that's a good idea?
Maybe a redshirt would benefit one or both, but it's absolutely not an option.
Quote from: wadesworld on February 03, 2015, 10:14:32 AM
I'm not sure what "and Heldt plays at Nennah" means but it seems like you mean to say his competition and team must suck. Neenah lost in the WIAA D1 State Championship and had a shot in the closing seconds to tie Germantown, whose 3rd straight State Title that was and who lost I believe a total of 3 games in those 3 years. Neenah is once again ranked right near the top of the state and played Germantown in a very close game earlier this year. Him playing for Neenah is a good thing not a bad thing.
And Sandy Cohen played at Seymour, and is progressing just fine as a freshman. Many of these guys play so much top level AAU ball that it is almost irrelevant where they play high school.
Quote from: DienerTime34 on February 03, 2015, 10:24:02 AM
Matt Heldt is exactly the type of player we've been mocking the Badgers for recruiting over the last 15 years.
That means he'll probably look like a goof for the first two years, become a solid role player his junior season with fantastic fundamentals, and then somehow average 14 and 7 his senior year, while knocking down several game-winning 3 point shots against all the teams whose fans made fun of him on their message boards.
This is so true
Quote from: Pakuni on February 03, 2015, 10:34:17 AM
As of right now, with Heldt and Noskowiak and assuming no transfers, MU has a 10-man roster for next year.
Redshirting them leaves 8.
Does anyone think that's a good idea?
Maybe a redshirt would benefit one or both, but it's absolutely not an option.
Agreed. Heldt is going to have to give 10 mpg as a back up next year.
Quote from: Pakuni on February 03, 2015, 10:34:17 AM
As of right now, with Heldt and Noskowiak and assuming no transfers, MU has a 10-man roster for next year.
Redshirting them leaves 8.
Does anyone think that's a good idea?
Maybe a redshirt would benefit one or both, but it's absolutely not an option.
No chance of red-shirting, maybe NN if he is not healthy enough, no one really knows his situation, just hope he will fine. If MU finds 2 more players redshirting might be a possibility. For Heldt
they will need a back-up. Fisher, Heldt, then Ellenson, Taylor as PF, need a big in 2016.
But our roster won't be at 10 when all is said and done.
We obviously need to see what Wojo does with the 3 available scholarships. I think a redshirt year would be of value to Heldt but if we don't sign a juco or grad transfer big that isn't going to happen.
Quote from: MuMark on February 03, 2015, 10:39:34 AM
But our roster won't be at 10 when all is said and done.
We obviously need to see what Wojo does with the 3 available scholarships. I think a redshirt year would be of value to Heldt but if we don't sign a juco or grad transfer big that isn't going to happen.
Maybe, maybe not. Wojo has said repeatedly that he only intends to sign kids he believes can help the team win, not just to fill scholarships.
That said, at this point in the process do you think there's much likelihood that MU signs 2-3 kids ready to contribute any quicker than a couple of top 100ish recruits? Perhaps a JUCO or two, but that's no guarantee. Even then, that's a 9 or 10-man roster. Still far from ideal.
Every year someone here says so and so freshman should red shirt, and then they don't. It is not going to happen, and there is really no reason for it.
Quote from: LAMUfan on February 03, 2015, 10:50:42 AM
Every year someone here says so and so freshman should red shirt, and then they don't. It is not going to happen, and there is really no reason for it.
I'm trying to decide which myth I see more, "This freshman should redshirt" or "I heard these two recruits are a package deal"
Quote from: DienerTime34 on February 03, 2015, 10:24:02 AM
Matt Heldt is exactly the type of player we've been mocking the Badgers for recruiting over the last 15 years.
That means he'll probably look like a goof for the first two years, become a solid role player his junior season with fantastic fundamentals, and then somehow average 14 and 7 his senior year, while knocking down several game-winning 3 point shots against all the teams whose fans made fun of him on their message boards.
I agree, but think he will provide some solid back up minutes and hopefully progresses quicker. Either way, Wojo's plan as some discussed early, is not to try to create a team on a short term basis and pull in players each year. It will be a change from what we are used to, but it will be team building over time. It should result in fewer characters and a longer term outlook than year to year.
Quote from: WarriorPride68 on February 03, 2015, 10:02:59 AM
http://youtu.be/K6HeN1hHvNc
This is from a couple months ago. He looks glued to the floor, is this video a fair assumption of his athleticism? For those who have seen Heldt play
Mid-range jumper is nice. Other than Novak, who while 6-10 didn't really play post, who was the last big that had that? Davante could occasionally hit one but wasn't really a threat to the extent that he brought the defense out to him.
Its time to put "Redshirting Players" idea on the curb with the garbage, right next to "Banking Scholarships".
A planned non-injury redshirt will almost never occur for the same reason banking scholarships almost never occurs--a coach today is never going to give up on the chance that a player can help a team win THIS YEAR--no matter how slight--in exchange for the mere possibility that they'll help four or five years down the road.
Next, if you redshirt a player, he uses a scholarship, but doesn't play. That means a coach is penalizing himself in the same way the NCAA does when it takes away a scholarship. Oh, you save the effort recruiting a player for the following year, but next year there will be plenty of players available who are ready next year.
And don't trot out the "he'll get better with a year" excuse. EVERY player will get better with an extra year. If that's your reasoning, then why not redshirt Ellenson? AFter all, he'll be even better in 2017 with a year to acclimate to college ball, won't he? And that way we may still have him then in 2020. Why not redshirt Cheatham? Same reason. He'll get better if he sits out a year...See how easy that is? EVERY player will get better.
Assuming Nick plays at MU next year, both will play unless Wojo lands a JUCO big, wing, and PG. Heldt is going to be a 10-12 mpg back up.
Quote from: wadesworld on February 03, 2015, 10:14:32 AM
I'm not sure what "and Heldt plays at Nennah" means but it seems like you mean to say his competition and team must suck. Neenah lost in the WIAA D1 State Championship and had a shot in the closing seconds to tie Germantown, whose 3rd straight State Title that was and who lost I believe a total of 3 games in those 3 years. Neenah is once again ranked right near the top of the state and played Germantown in a very close game earlier this year. Him playing for Neenah is a good thing not a bad thing.
If you are referring to my post--that is not what I said. I said he is THICKER than most 6'10" kids. Kids who are 6'10" usually tend to be very thin and cannot do much underneath until they put on some weight. MH has a little bulk already.
Never said he sucks. Never said Neenah sucks. Never said playing for Neenah is a bad thing. Unclear where you got this.
Only thing I said was that he is thicker than most kids his size.
Quote from: WarriorPride68 on February 03, 2015, 10:02:59 AM
http://youtu.be/K6HeN1hHvNc
This is from a couple months ago. He looks glued to the floor, is this video a fair assumption of his athleticism? For those who have seen Heldt play
Yes. Good bball IQ though, so he makes up for alot of his defiencies with his positioning.
Quote from: We R Final Four on February 03, 2015, 11:03:31 AM
If you are referring to my post--that is not what I said. I said he is THICKER than most 6'10" kids. Kids who are 6'10" usually tend to be very thin and cannot do much underneath until they put on some weight. MH has a little bulk already.
Never said he sucks. Never said Neenah sucks. Never said playing for Neenah is a bad thing. Unclear where you got this.
Only thing I said was that he is thicker than most kids his size.
Sorry thought I quoted it but guess not, but I was referring to the original post in this thread. Warrior Pride makes it seem as though Heldt playing for Neenah means his competition is bad and his team is bad when he says "Noskowiak isn't playing and Heldt goes to Neenah." Neenah plays the highest competition in Wisconsin and over the last 2 years has been 1 of the 2 best programs at the D1 level.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on February 03, 2015, 10:36:44 AM
And Sandy Cohen played at Seymour, and is progressing just fine as a freshman. Many of these guys play so much top level AAU ball that it is almost irrelevant where they play high school.
Except AAU ball doesn't matter Sultan - particularly when giving a boost to a player like JJJ's recruiting ranking. Didn't you just offer up this gem a few weeks ago:
I spent some time last night going back and reading up on his recruitment. I came across an article like this:
http://www.commercialappeal.com/sports/high-school/recruiting-insider-southwind-junior-explodes-a
He was a 2013 unranked prospect until the summer before his senior year, who exploded on the scene due to his AAU performance - a type of game that likely fit his skills.
This is the problem with players like this. We can hope and pray that they are "late-bloomers" (like we are with Sacar Anim), but oftentimes they turnout to simply have gotten real good at the right time in a moment that fit their skills.
This thread is about Heldt and Noskowiak, and Ners launches into a diatribe about JJJ.
Up next, "Deonte Burton: Future Lottery Pick and Perennial All-Star."
Quote from: MUfan12 on February 03, 2015, 11:37:55 AM
This thread is about Heldt and Noskowiak, and Ners launches into a diatribe about JJJ.
Up next, "Deonte Burton: Future Lottery Pick and Perennial All-Star."
All Big East Freshman team. Get it right.
I think Heldt's biggest problem early on will be defending.
UW redshirts guys almost every year....I'm not saying Wojo will do it but Heldt has already said he is open to the possibility.
Clearly it all depends on if we get somebody else who can give us backup minutes at the 5.....would have to be a JC or grad transfer type in all likelihood.
I am not aware of anyone who we are currently recruiting who fits that description so unless that changes it will be Heldt.
I do expect Wojo will add at least 1 JC player for next year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6HeN1hHvNc
Obviously it's hard to take much away from a highlight video but I do like that Heldt is very quick with his moves and decision makings and that he keeps the ball high in the post. He won't be an above the rim big but he finishes well around the basket. Not quick, not athletic, but fundamentally sound.
Quote from: MUfan12 on February 03, 2015, 11:37:55 AM
This thread is about Heldt and Noskowiak, and Ners launches into a diatribe about JJJ.
Up next, "Deonte Burton: Future Lottery Pick and Perennial All-Star."
Why in God's name was Sandy Cohen brought up in this thread - it's about Nick and Heldt? Take it up with Sultan.
Give me a break. Find something else to bitch about. But please, for the rest of time moving forward - don't EVER make a post in a thread about anything OTHER than what the thread topic is started for. I'll do my best to try to "police" you - maybe even for the first time in my history - "report to moderator." LOL.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 03, 2015, 11:57:43 AM
I'll do my best to try to "police" you - maybe even for the first time in my history - "report to moderator." LOL.
Oh, please do.
Quote from: MUfan12 on February 03, 2015, 12:02:25 PM
Oh, please do.
"Oh" Will do. Any reason you had no comment for Sultan derailing the thread into a discussion about Sandy Cohen?
I was defending the notion that Heldt going to Neenah shouldn't be seen as a detriment by offering an example how a kid from a high school outside of the "traditional" recruiting hotbeds can make an immediate impact on a college basketball team.
I brought up AAU as an example of how kids are exposed year round to playing against high quality competition. It had nothing to do with recruiting rankings.
Simple stuff if it is read correctly.
I've always thought the redshirt is widely underutilized in college basketball. In theory, teams should have 13 scholarship players. I don't think I've ever seen a coach consistently use more than a 10 man rotation. If players 11, 12, and 13 aren't going to play significant roles this season, why not redshirt them? They may be the 11-13th best player right now, but as fifth year seniors they could end being the star of the team. They could still practice with the team, so they are developing at roughly the same rate and they are helping the other players by practicing against them in practice. And if the worst happens, and you have a ton of injuries and you need to utilize a redshirt player, you are allowed to do that. They lose their redshirt but it's not like once you declare them a redshirt that you must keep them on the bench. There's also a ton of research that shows that athletes that redshirt their freshman season tend to perform much better in the classroom and off the court.
That being said, I can understand why players don't want to redshirt and how being a redshirt heavy university could negatively impact recruiting. I don't think either Nick or Matt will be redshirtted. I don't think it would be wise, unless Wojo finds some studs in the transfer/juco ranks.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 03, 2015, 12:20:52 PMI've always thought the redshirt is widely underutilized in college basketball. In theory, teams should have 13 scholarship players.
I agree, but I think the modern culture is part of it. There's so much more attention between Twitter, FaceBook, and all the recruiting sites that kids get it in their mind they're all going to be a star. Numerous handlers in everyone's ear saying they should be playing now and that they're better than the people ahead of them. Leads to transfers and has people not wanting to redshirt because they feel they deserve that chance immediately.
Bo has done a great job of bringing in guys willing to wait and develop, whether it's just waiting their turn or taking a year off to develop their bodies and skillsets before getting on the court. I would love it if Wojo can eventually do the same. I think a ton of kids would benefit from the conditioning and practice at a D1 program without the immediate pressure to perform. Unfortunately, many just don't want that.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 03, 2015, 01:54:22 PM
I agree, but I think the modern culture is part of it. There's so much more attention between Twitter, FaceBook, and all the recruiting sites that kids get it in their mind they're all going to be a star. Numerous handlers in everyone's ear saying they should be playing now and that they're better than the people ahead of them. Leads to transfers and has people not wanting to redshirt because they feel they deserve that chance immediately.
Bo has done a great job of bringing in guys willing to wait and develop, whether it's just waiting their turn or taking a year off to develop their bodies and skillsets before getting on the court. I would love it if Wojo can eventually do the same. I think a ton of kids would benefit from the conditioning and practice at a D1 program without the immediate pressure to perform. Unfortunately, many just don't want that.
Actually a good solution would be to take 1 or 2 transfers per year (they obviously have to redshirt).
It creates a shorter rotation, which is fine, and then MU gets the advantage of getting a more developed player.
I don't expect Wally to be a world-beater, but I would bet that he can be pretty solid. Jake took some heat around here, but he was pretty solid last year. There are minutes on good teams for those type of guys... especially as seniors.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 03, 2015, 12:11:26 PM
"Oh" Will do. Any reason you had no comment for Sultan derailing the thread into a discussion about Sandy Cohen?
The problem is you ONLY talk about like 3 things in every thread. Whereas one person bringing up Cohen to dispel an insult was appropriate. You seem to plug in your theory in every thread.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 03, 2015, 12:20:52 PM
I've always thought the redshirt is widely underutilized in college basketball. In theory, teams should have 13 scholarship players. I don't think I've ever seen a coach consistently use more than a 10 man rotation. If players 11, 12, and 13 aren't going to play significant roles this season, why not redshirt them? They may be the 11-13th best player right now, but as fifth year seniors they could end being the star of the team. They could still practice with the team, so they are developing at roughly the same rate and they are helping the other players by practicing against them in practice. And if the worst happens, and you have a ton of injuries and you need to utilize a redshirt player, you are allowed to do that. They lose their redshirt but it's not like once you declare them a redshirt that you must keep them on the bench. There's also a ton of research that shows that athletes that redshirt their freshman season tend to perform much better in the classroom and off the court.
That being said, I can understand why players don't want to redshirt and how being a redshirt heavy university could negatively impact recruiting. I don't think either Nick or Matt will be redshirtted. I don't think it would be wise, unless Wojo finds some studs in the transfer/juco ranks.
It would be in everyone's best interest that Nick red shirted. Let him get a good start to college academically and work on his game with no pressure.
Heldt scored 35 against a good Oshkosh North team last night. Most were down low, but he did hit a few jump shots, including one 3. Flory was the high scorer for North with 16.
Quote from: DienerTime34 on February 03, 2015, 10:53:05 AM
I'm trying to decide which myth I see more, "This freshman should redshirt" or "I heard these two recruits are a package deal"
Both are very rare
Package deal never really happens unless it is siblings.
Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on February 03, 2015, 02:20:49 PM
Actually a good solution would be to take 1 or 2 transfers per year (they obviously have to redshirt).
It creates a shorter rotation, which is fine, and then MU gets the advantage of getting a more developed player.
I don't expect Wally to be a world-beater, but I would bet that he can be pretty solid. Jake took some heat around here, but he was pretty solid last year. There are minutes on good teams for those type of guys... especially as seniors.
Seems like a good strategy to me. Players 12 and 13 never play anyway.
Quote from: KenoshaWarrior on February 04, 2015, 08:36:59 AM
Both are very rare
Package deal never really happens unless it is siblings.
or if their names are Tyus Jones and Jahlil Okafor....http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/24631203/package-deals-are-harder-to-execute-than-okafor-and-jones-made-it-look
Quote from: MuMark on February 04, 2015, 11:42:15 AM
or if their names are Tyus Jones and Jahlil Okafor....http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/24631203/package-deals-are-harder-to-execute-than-okafor-and-jones-made-it-look
Oh it does happen, but rarely. Last package deal for MU that I recall was Trotter and Lazaretti from Omaha Creighton Prep. And they were not siblings. In fact Trotter's brother played for that team and was not offered.
Willie--did you go to Prep?
If so, did you play bball?
Do you have any Coach Wilmot stories?