1. Thank goodness Matt is a chucker.
2. I don't know what JJJ did, but I hope he learned his lesson.
3. Playing 7, impossible to sustain defensive intensity.
4. Chance to take the lead in the final minute, get a point blank look. Make it and maybe you win. Miss it....
5. MU looks so good in transition off of steals. Half court, not so much.
6. Nobody, not Duane, not Matt, not Derrick, could get the ball to Luke on the block consistently.
7. In the end, playing a conference road game against a team that is undefeated at home and MU has a beautiful look to take the lead in the last minute. So close....and yet so far.
So disappointing we have had a chance to win all 3 road games and choked.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on January 17, 2015, 01:08:06 PM
So disappointing we have had a chance to win all 3 road games and choked.
I disagree with 'choked'. Didn't have enough players, depth, energy, diversity in the offense, to finish the job.
Quote from: tower912 on January 17, 2015, 01:06:45 PM
6. Nobody, not Duane, not Matt, not Derrick, could get the ball to Luke on the block consistently.
Our guards are bad at feeding the post but a lot of that is Luke's inability to anchor himself and seal his man. He gets pushed off his spot too easily. He's a very skilled player but until he learns to do that, he'll never consistently be an offensive threat for us.
Quote from: tower912 on January 17, 2015, 01:06:45 PM
6. Nobody, not Duane, not Matt, not Derrick, could get the ball to Luke on the block consistently.
Wojo needs to figure this out, can't have guards just staring him down on the perimeter and forcing passes.
At some point it would be nice to figure the 2nd half funk, half-court disappears too often
Lack of depth is a lousy excuse. Plenty of teams play only 7 guys.
Quote from: tower912 on January 17, 2015, 01:10:20 PM
I disagree with 'choked'. Didn't have enough players, depth, energy, diversity in the offense, to finish the job.
We blew two double digit leads.
And in all 3 games we had chances late to take the lead.
That is basically choking
Quote from: LAZER on January 17, 2015, 01:11:42 PM
Wojo needs to figure this out, can't have guards just staring him down on the perimeter and forcing passes.
Luke Rolled perfectly after every screen he set. Never was the ball passed to him on the roll. He was wide open on about 50% of them. Simplest play in hoops. MU needs to learn how to do it.
Quote from: MU7703 on January 17, 2015, 01:11:26 PM
Our guards are bad at feeding the post but a lot of that is Luke's inability to anchor himself and seal his man. He gets pushed off his spot too easily. He's a very skilled player but until he learns to do that, he'll never consistently be an offensive threat for us.
I agree, Luke flashes into position and gives up on it before our guard is in position to get him the ball.
Is it choking because of the pressure or gasping because you are out of gas.
Quote from: tower912 on January 17, 2015, 01:10:20 PM
I disagree with 'choked'. Didn't have enough players, depth, energy, diversity in the offense, to finish the job.
+1.
We're not good enough not to play perfectly in order to get a road win. We had our chances today. X stepped up big time in the second half. It wasn't a choke at all.
Quote from: jsglow on January 17, 2015, 01:14:58 PM
+1.
We're not good enough not to play perfectly in order to get a road win. We had our chances today. X stepped up big time in the second half. It wasn't a choke at all.
More like stepped in to their open shots in the second half.
Quote from: Atticus on January 17, 2015, 01:12:27 PM
Lack of depth is a lousy excuse. Plenty of teams play only 7 guys.
What teams, who are consistent winners, play only 7 guys?
It was a fun game to watch. I can't even imagine how bad we would be if we didn't have carlino.
X hit some silly threes in the 2H. Onto the next one.
I'm "happy" with today's outcome. I'm never truly happy with a loss but a lot of good things happened in this game.
1. We held the number 2 offense, and the top scoring offense in the Big East to 62 points. Xavier has scored 70 or more points in every game but 2 this season.
2. We forced Xavier into 12 first half turnovers. If we kept that up in the second half...
3. Remy Abell has never hit more than 2 3Ps in a game before. He decided to go off for 5 today. That doesn't happen, we win easily.
4. Luke's shot rolls in 9/10 times. Just got an unlucky roll this time.
5. This was a road game against a better team. We were expected to lose by 9. We didn't.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 17, 2015, 01:18:55 PM
I'm "happy" with today's outcome. I'm never truly happy with a loss but a lot of good things happened in this game.
1. We held the number 2 offense, and the top scoring offense in the Big East to 62 points. Xavier has scored 70 or more points in every game but 2 this season.
2. We forced Xavier into 12 first half turnovers. If we kept that up in the second half...
3. Remy Abell has never hit more than 2 3Ps in a game before. He decided to go off for 5 today. That doesn't happen, we win easily.
4. Luke's shot rolls in 9/10 times. Just got an unlucky roll this time.
5. This was a road game against a better team. We were expected to lose by 9. We didn't.
I'm not happy, but appreciate the positives.
Quote from: Atticus on January 17, 2015, 01:12:27 PM
Lack of depth is a lousy excuse. Plenty of teams play only 7 guys.
Who?
If you continue to get upset at this team every game, you are an idiot. Look at the roster we have. This is how things are going to be.
What is not understood about that very simple idea. It can be hard to win games even when you have guys.
Marquette is limited. But they are playing hard and with a lot of energy. This type of outcome is to be expected.
Such a struggle to score. Only reached 60 points in 2 of last 11 games!
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 17, 2015, 01:18:55 PM
I'm "happy" with today's outcome. I'm never truly happy with a loss but a lot of good things happened in this game.
1. We held the number 2 offense, and the top scoring offense in the Big East to 62 points. Xavier has scored 70 or more points in every game but 2 this season.
2. We forced Xavier into 12 first half turnovers. If we kept that up in the second half...
3. Remy Abell has never hit more than 2 3Ps in a game before. He decided to go off for 5 today. That doesn't happen, we win easily.
4. Luke's shot rolls in 9/10 times. Just got an unlucky roll this time.
5. This was a road game against a better team. We were expected to lose by 9. We didn't.
All those are very true but a few things.
Abell is a great shooter, we gave him enough looks. We were not unlucky that he happened to "hit" them
Luke just simply needs to make that
And yeah I expected us to get our doors blown off today but it makes this all the more disappointing. We have had double digit leads in 4/5 gams so far...we are 2-2 in those games and 1/4 in sustaining the lead(Prov got close but never tied)
Just playin with our emotions. And know we have St Johns who is most likely going to smash us for real this time(just not a good match up and on the road). Could be 3-2(heck 4-1) and plyaing with house money.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 17, 2015, 01:17:39 PM
What teams, who are consistent winners, play only 7 guys?
Coach K will shorten his rotation to 7. Boeheim only plays 7.
Do those guys win a lot?
Quote from: Atticus on January 17, 2015, 01:26:12 PM
Coach K will shorten his rotation to 7. Boeheim only plays 7.
Do those guys win a lot?
Take a look at the 7 on Duke and Syracuse. Come on.
Quote from: Atticus on January 17, 2015, 01:26:12 PM
Coach K will shorten his rotation to 7. Boeheim only plays 7.
Do those guys win a lot?
1. They have top talent
2. Both run 8 man rotations
3. Syracuse plays at a very slow pace
4. There is a big difference between running an 8 man rotation and literally only having 8 scholarship players
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 17, 2015, 01:35:23 PM
1. They have top talent
2. Both run 8 man rotations
3. Syracuse plays at a very slow pace
4. There is a big difference between running an 8 man rotation and literally only having 8 scholarship players
1. The argument was not about talent. Are you saying that the most talented players don't get tired?
2. K has already shortened his bench. He will shorten it again in March. Boeheim has used 7 guys in 3/4 ACC games according to box scores.
3. According to Kenpom, they play faster than we do.
4. Not part of the original argument.
The team as currently constructed has not shown the ability to play like they need to for forty minutes.
Quote from: Atticus on January 17, 2015, 01:47:02 PM
1. The argument was not about talent. Are you saying that the most talented players don't get tired?
2. K has already shortened his bench. He will shorten it again in March. Boeheim has used 7 guys in 3/4 ACC games according to box scores.
3. According to Kenpom, they play faster than we do.
4. Not part of the original argument.
1. Top talent is more athletic.
2. So K runs 8? And Syracuse managed to do that against 4/5 of the worst teams in the ACC. They also managed to have 15 or less fouls called against them in each game
3. So? They still play at a very slow pace.
4. Yes part of the original argument. Knowing that you have a deep bench behind you changes the way you play. You can be more aggressive, you can exert yourself more. There's also a big difference between picking the top 7 out of 13 scholarship players and picking the top 7 out of 8 scholarship players. Syracuse doesn't play their 6 worst players. Marquette has to play all of their worst players out of necessity.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 17, 2015, 02:02:27 PM
4. Yes part of the original argument. Knowing that you have a deep bench behind you changes the way you play. You can be more aggressive, you can exert yourself more. There's also a big difference between picking the top 7 out of 13 scholarship players and picking the top 7 out of 8 scholarship players. Syracuse doesn't play their 6 worst players. Marquette has to play all of their worst players out of necessity.
This is correct. Marquette's 9th and 10th players were managers on the women's team a month ago. As far as Wojo or anyone D1 coach would be concerned, they might as well be empty seats when it comes to game action. That is not what Coach K or Boeheim deal with.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 17, 2015, 02:02:27 PM
1. Top talent is more athletic.
2. So K runs 8? And Syracuse managed to do that against 4/5 of the worst teams in the ACC. They also managed to have 15 or less fouls called against them in each game
3. So? They still play at a very slow pace.
4. Yes part of the original argument. Knowing that you have a deep bench behind you changes the way you play. You can be more aggressive, you can exert yourself more. There's also a big difference between picking the top 7 out of 13 scholarship players and picking the top 7 out of 8 scholarship players. Syracuse doesn't play their 6 worst players. Marquette has to play all of their worst players out of necessity.
Athletic players don't get tired. Interesting. I boeheim played 7 against the worst teams in the BE, you think he will extend his bench against the best teams? Interesting. K will eventually play 7. When he loses, Duke fans will blame the short rotation because they know better than the HoFer
MU got their points from their defense in the first half off turnovers in transition, and then gave those points back in the 2nd.
MU's half court offense is non-existent. Wojo needs a reset.
Wojo's in game coaching needs some seasoned help from Phelps. Mack was very good out of the time outs and halftime, and Wojo wasn't, including the end. The game prep has been outstanding but in game has been average, IMO.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 17, 2015, 02:18:29 PM
MU got their points from their defense in the second half of turnovers in transition, and then gave those points back in the 2nd.
MU's half court offense is non-existent. Wojo needs a reset.
Wojo's in game coaching needs some seasoned help from Phelps. Mack was very good out of the time outs and halftime, and Wojo wasn't, including the end. The game prep has been outstanding but in game has been average, IMO.
I think this team lacks a "Plan B" at times.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 17, 2015, 02:18:29 PM
MU got their points from their defense in the second half of turnovers in transition, and then gave those points back in the 2nd.
MU's half court offense is non-existent. Wojo needs a reset.
Wojo's in game coaching needs some seasoned help from Phelps. Mack was very good out of the time outs and halftime, and Wojo wasn't, including the end. The game prep has been outstanding but in game has been average, IMO.
Accurate, Dr.
Hard to have many options when no one can really create offense. I'm not gonna judge Wojo's offensive acumen until he gets a full deck to work with.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 17, 2015, 02:18:29 PM
MU got their points from their defense in the second half of turnovers in transition, and then gave those points back in the 2nd.
MU's half court offense is non-existent. Wojo needs a reset.
Wojo's in game coaching needs some seasoned help from Phelps. Mack was very good out of the time outs and halftime, and Wojo wasn't, including the end. The game prep has been outstanding but in game has been average, IMO.
Agreed.
Quote from: Atticus on January 17, 2015, 02:16:10 PM
Athletic players don't get tired. Interesting. I boeheim played 7 against the worst teams in the BE, you think he will extend his bench against the best teams? Interesting. K will eventually play 7. When he loses, Duke fans will blame the short rotation because they know better than the HoFer
Athletic player don't get as tired as quickly.
But again for the third time, Coach K is using an 8 man rotation. Not what you said originally.
You also forgot to acknowledge the most important point. Duke and Syracuse get to pick the top 7 out of 13 scholarship players, their six worst sit on the bench. Marquette has to roll with their best and worst players because they have no choice. If you don't understand the difference, I don't know what to say.
Quote from: Atticus on January 17, 2015, 01:26:12 PM
Coach K will shorten his rotation to 7. Boeheim only plays 7.
Do those guys win a lot?
MU played seven, but with Taylor, it is six. Wow has he digressed. Can't compare Duke/Cuse first 8 with MU, not even in same ballpark talent wise.
MU has to be one of the worst fast break teams in the country.
18 turnovers, some of which were just mind-blowing......
Carlino has guts, but can't do it all.
Du Wilson 1 for 6 from three and they were wide open. He will start making them as he matures.
Luke not the savior. Just 4 shots again, foul trouble again, and got handled pretty good by Matt S in the paint.
Good first half, another double digit lead, but can't hold on to these games. The young players will learn for next few years.
Quote from: nyg on January 17, 2015, 03:14:33 PM
MU played seven, but with Taylor, it is six. Wow has he digressed. Can't compare Duke/Cuse first 8 with MU, not even in same ballpark talent wise.
MU has to be one of the worst fast break teams in the country.
18 turnovers, some of which were just mind-blowing......
Carlino has guts, but can't do it all.
Du Wilson 1 for 6 from three and they were wide open. He will start making them as he matures.
Luke not the savior. Just 4 shots again, foul trouble again, and got handled pretty good by Matt S in the paint.
Good first half, another double digit lead, but can't hold on to these games. The young players will learn for next few years.
Thank you for saying that. For all the hyperbolic Charles Barkley references Burton got last season it's been even worse with how some have described Fischer this season based on how he handled +200 RPI teams.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on January 17, 2015, 03:23:27 PM
Thank you for saying that. For all the hyperbolic Charles Barkley references Burton got last season it's been even worse with how some have described Fischer this season based on how he handled +200 RPI teams.
Here may come around, but right now he is just not getting the looks. Every game, even the announcers state the common theme that he is shooting 80%, yet only taking four to five shots. I wish he would turn around and take a jumpshot as opposed to either using his jump hook shot he uses all the time. That along with lifting some weights, actually playing with Henry Ellenson next year and gaining experience will help the kid. Next year fellas, next year, the rebuilding will start.
Quote from: nyg on January 17, 2015, 03:14:33 PM
MU has to be one of the worst fast break teams in the country.
18 turnovers, some of which were just mind-blowing......
I disagree, its the half court offense that struggles. The turnovers in the second half, oh man, were some of those dumb. I think about 3 of Carlino's TOs were him trying to feed the post, AKA Steve and Steve didnt seem to move a couple inches to get the ball and hence, Xavier snatched it.
Quote from: nyg on January 17, 2015, 03:29:59 PM
Here may come around, but right now he is just not getting the looks. Every game, even the announcers state the common theme that he is shooting 80%, yet only taking four to five shots. I wish he would turn around and take a jumpshot as opposed to either using his jump hook shot he uses all the time. That along with lifting some weights, actually playing with Henry Ellenson next year and gaining experience will help the kid. Next year fellas, next year, the rebuilding will start.
He practiced against a better offensive post player than anyone he's seen this season (Gardner) and a very good college defensive post (Otule) for an entire semester last season. He just seems like he's getting overwhelmed so far in conference play which is most likely due to being young and the fact that most big men take the longest time to develop. He's a quality addition to this roster but hardly a superstar.
Quote from: MU7703 on January 17, 2015, 01:11:26 PM
Our guards are bad at feeding the post but a lot of that is Luke's inability to anchor himself and seal his man. He gets pushed off his spot too easily. He's a very skilled player but until he learns to do that, he'll never consistently be an offensive threat for us.
Correct. It's partly on the guards, but a huge part of the issue lies with Luke.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on January 17, 2015, 01:08:06 PM
So disappointing we have had a chance to win all 3 road games and choked.
Agreed, but with only 8 guys (7 today), it is hard. Especially when only 2 guys on the team have played extensive minutes in college.
Quote from: MU7703 on January 17, 2015, 01:11:26 PM
Our guards are bad at feeding the post but a lot of that is Luke's inability to anchor himself and seal his man. He gets pushed off his spot too easily. He's a very skilled player but until he learns to do that, he'll never consistently be an offensive threat for us.
? --These turnovers weren't the result of a lack of a seal on Luke's defender rather they were picked by Matt's, Duane's and Derrick's defenders.
Quote from: tower912 on January 17, 2015, 01:14:35 PM
Is it choking because of the pressure or gasping because you are out of gas.
There it is........when we lose=fatigue.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 17, 2015, 01:18:55 PM
I'm "happy" with today's outcome. I'm never truly happy with a loss but a lot of good things happened in this game.
1. We held the number 2 offense, and the top scoring offense in the Big East to 62 points. Xavier has scored 70 or more points in every game but 2 this season.
2. We forced Xavier into 12 first half turnovers. If we kept that up in the second half...
3. Remy Abell has never hit more than 2 3Ps in a game before. He decided to go off for 5 today. That doesn't happen, we win easily.
4. Luke's shot rolls in 9/10 times. Just got an unlucky roll this time.
5. This was a road game against a better team. We were expected to lose by 9. We didn't.
I dont understand this. When the #2 offense turns the ball over 12 times in the first half, that is generally out of character. Of course they are not going to do the same thing again and not adjust.
If a team is shooting 40% from 3, and they go 0-10 in the first half, and 8- 10 from 3 in the 2nd half to reach their average.....would you say only if they would have kept those misses up in the 2nd half...?
Quote from: We R Final Four on January 17, 2015, 05:55:02 PM
There it is........when we lose=fatigue.
Have you seen anything at all that indicates otherwise?
It's easy to blame fatigue when we lose--this you know cuz you bring it up every loss.
If Luke would have made the bunny and we went on to win....fatigue would not have been a factor. That's illogical.
Quote from: We R Final Four on January 17, 2015, 08:26:54 PM
It's easy to blame fatigue when we lose--this you know cuz you bring it up every loss.
If Luke would have made the bunny and we went on to win....fatigue would not have been a factor. That's illogical.
It is indeed a tired argument!
1.Derrick played a great first half, but a poor 2nd half. He is what he is. 38 minutes with marginal stats, and too many TO's in this game. Not the main reason we lost.
2. Fischer is skilled down low, but teams are clogging the lane on him. Rarely does he kick it back out. That will change when/if he learns to do that and players start knocking down some 3's.
3. Carlino is a good shooter, but he also tries to do way too much, shooting one on three when people are open. He must learn to pick his spots rather than trying to be the entire offense at crunch time. That being said, he is still a valuable offensive player.
4. We are really hurting when Fischer gets in foul trouble, which is happening way too much.
5. Not getting enough out of Taylor. He just does not have the killer instinct out there.
6. Juan disappears out there too much, ala Jamil. We definitely need more consistency from him. He is playing better than last year.
7. Like many other coaches, Wojo does have a double standard with underclassmen compared to seniors. JJJ, Duane and Sandy all get yanked when they screw up. Meanwhile that happens far less with Juan and Carlino, and never with Derrick (38 minutes yesterday with some very costly TO's). Don't agree with that philosophy, but he is the coach.
8. Cannot explain the benching of JJJ. One bad practice seems odd for that. Must be more to it. We're talking about practice Man! as Iverson used to say.
Starting to look like another lost year unless something amazing happens. The good things should start to happen as the underclassmen mature and with help coming in. Next year, we will definitely need a leader, and it does not appear yet that we have one waiting in the wings. Likely candidate would be Duane, but he must grow also.
Quote from: We R Final Four on January 17, 2015, 06:04:52 PM
I dont understand this. When the #2 offense turns the ball over 12 times in the first half, that is generally out of character. Of course they are not going to do the same thing again and not adjust.
If a team is shooting 40% from 3, and they go 0-10 in the first half, and 8- 10 from 3 in the 2nd half to reach their average.....would you say only if they would have kept those misses up in the 2nd half...?
I guess I'm confused by your confusion. I was saying if Marquette forced another 12 turnovers that we would have won. Xavier wasn't just giving the ball away in the first half. Marquette had 9 1H steals, they were forcing those turnovers. X adjusted and we didn't adjust with them.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 18, 2015, 12:02:14 PM
I guess I'm confused by your confusion. I was saying if Marquette forced another 12 turnovers that we would have won. Xavier wasn't just giving the ball away in the first half. Marquette had 9 1H steals, they were forcing those turnovers. X adjusted and we didn't adjust with them.
Yes--I know. There was no way MU was going to continue to get another 12 turnovers just because it happened in the first half. The market corrects itself.
Because a team was 0-10 on 3s in the first half, your position in similar to to saying if they only went 0-10 like they did in the first half, we would have won. Instead, the team hits 8-10 on 3s in the 2nd half to hit their season average of 40%.
Quote from: We R Final Four on January 18, 2015, 02:55:24 PM
Yes--I know. There was no way MU was going to continue to get another 12 turnovers just because it happened in the first half. The market corrects itself.
Because a team was 0-10 on 3s in the first half, your position in similar to to saying if they only went 0-10 like they did in the first half, we would have won. Instead, the team hits 8-10 on 3s in the 2nd half to hit their season average of 40%.
This isn't the economy. What defenses do matter. Sure you shouldn't expect another 12 turnovers, but I think its fair to expect more than the four we got. Same with 3 point shooting. If a team goes 0-10 in the first half, I think it is more likely they go 0-10 in the second half than it is that they go 8-10.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 17, 2015, 01:18:55 PM
2. We forced Xavier into 12 first half turnovers. If we kept that up in the second half...
To your point #2, this wasn't going to happen just because it happened in the first half....and it didn't.
Quote from: We R Final Four on January 18, 2015, 03:27:27 PM
To your point #2, this wasn't going to happen just because it happened in the first half....and it didn't.
I think your reading it too literally. All I meant by the comment was if we kept forcing a lot of turnovers. It didn't mean literally another 12 turnovers.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 18, 2015, 04:01:46 PM
I think your reading it too literally. All I meant by the comment was if we kept forcing a lot of turnovers. It didn't mean literally another 12 turnovers.
When X was 2-12 on 3s in 1H, you were thinking that would continue? I didn't.
I thought they would come up to their average....and they did. 8-16 in 2H.
Similar to their 12 1H turnovers---whether you like it or not, numbers tend to come back to the average.
So, to expect an above average # of turnovers to continue all game long was expecting something that probably wasn't going to happen.
Quote from: We R Final Four on January 18, 2015, 04:45:38 PM
When X was 2-12 on 3s in 1H, you were thinking that would continue? I didn't.
I thought they would come up to their average....and they did. 8-16 in 2H.
Similar to their 12 1H turnovers---whether you like it or not, numbers tend to come back to the average.
So, to expect an above average # of turnovers to continue all game long was expecting something that probably wasn't going to happen.
Here's what I know. What I wrote was that if we kept forcing a lot of turnovers in the 2H, we would have won. A most likely factual statement. That's all that was meant by the comment.
I'm sorry, I shouldn't have responded in the first place. I feel like sometimes you have to read your posts over 5 times before submitting lest you could possibly be misinterpreted in any way.
I'm sorry as well. I just gets to me when people suggest that if abnormality would have just continued the way it did for the first X amount of time, we would have won. I hear about FTs, TOs, 3 pt shooting, etc. whatever. Good shooting teams usually come around after a bad start, teams that don't generally turn it over, usually stop turning it over.