Juan 37 minutes
Duane 34 minutes
Luke 33 minutes
JjJ 32 minutes
Carlino 29 minutes
Derrick 24 minutes
Steve 8 minutes
Cohen 3 minutes
Wojo definitely decided to ride the hot hands on this one. The four candidates for SOTG all played 32+ minutes. Those who struggled, sat. I think moving forward we need to see more time for Sandy and Steve. I think part of the reason the ASU was able to close the gap to single digits was fatigue on our part. Luke was a stud last night, but I don't think he can handle 33 minutes a game every night. Steve is unfortunately stuck playing the center role for the rest of the season, backing up Luke. Cohen I know made two dumb freshman mistakes in a row, but when you only have 8 players, I don't think you can afford to keep a guy in the doghouse for that long.
+100. Wojo needs to watch that. I think he gets into the flow of the game and kind of forgets. I'd personally have an assistant start to chart minutes on the sideline and serve as a 'warning bell'. Al needed Hank.
Our top guys made it hard for Wojo for to take them out of the lineup last night. Nonetheless, would still like to see some more minutes from STjr., and more time together with Luke.
Was encouraged to see Derrick minute totals come down to 24, I still think he makes his best contribution to the team at 10-15. I don't mind if he starts the beginning of the game and the beginning of second half, but I don't think he should be anywhere near the floor at crunch time.
Quote from: Texas Western on December 17, 2014, 08:04:18 AM
Our top guys made it hard for Wojo for to take them out of the lineup last night. Nonetheless, would still like to see some more minutes from STjr., and more time together with Luke.
Was encouraged to see Derrick minute totals come down to 24, I still think he makes his best contribution to the team at 10-15. I don't mind if he starts the beginning of the game and the beginning of second half, but I don't think he should be anywhere near the floor at crunch time.
But look that list. Where do the 10-15 minutes he loses go? You want to give
more minutes to the guys playing 30+? The only real logical place for them to go is Sandy -- Steve's minutes are going to go up because Luke can't be expected to play 33 every game, and as others have stated, playing them together is a dangerous prospect (in terms of foul trouble) for an 8-man roster with their most difficult competition ahead. The best case is Cohen gets 8-10 with Derrick playing 18-20. I don't think any more is realistic in the near future.
Quote from: Texas Western on December 17, 2014, 08:04:18 AM
Our top guys made it hard for Wojo for to take them out of the lineup last night. Nonetheless, would still like to see some more minutes from STjr., and more time together with Luke.
Was encouraged to see Derrick minute totals come down to 24, I still think he makes his best contribution to the team at 10-15. I don't mind if he starts the beginning of the game and the beginning of second half, but I don't think he should be anywhere near the floor at crunch time.
I thought Derrick had one of his poorer games last night. He made a couple of plays last night in the first half that weren't good. First, he failed to make any easy pass on a break and instead took it unsuccessfully to the rim himself followed shortly thereafter with an attempted break pass that was too difficult and resulted in a turnover. Usually I like Derrick's steadying floor influence but last night it simply wasn't there for him. No doubt all our other guards have vastly superior skill sets.
Of note, he was 3-4 from the line. If he can consistently do that he's very valuable on the floor in combating the press. There was a brief experiment with 4 guards and Luke during ASU's pressure and tere was some institutional switching.
I think I am the only one that believes Derrick should be in at the end of the game as long as we are in the double bonus. Sure there is the risk of Derrick missing both free throws, but missed free throws are not as disastrous as Carlino turning the ball over. As soon as Carlino is pressed he tries to get rid of the ball. He is like a deer in headlights. Derrick is the only one that can consistently bring the ball up against the press. Duane gets in trouble when ties to push it to fast and ties to split defenders.
Quote from: bilsu on December 17, 2014, 08:31:55 AM
I think I am the only one that believes Derrick should be in at the end of the game as long as we are in the double bonus. Sure there is the risk of Derrick missing both free throws, but missed free throws are not as disastrous as Carlino turning the ball over. As soon as Carlino is pressed he tries to get rid of the ball. He is like a deer in headlights. Derrick is the only one that can consistently bring the ball up against the press. Duane gets in trouble when ties to push it to fast and ties to split defenders.
Interesting. I thought that on several occasions Carlino tried to dribble too much through the press and was hoping/assuming he'd get fouled.
Quote from: Texas Western on December 17, 2014, 08:04:18 AM
Our top guys made it hard for Wojo for to take them out of the lineup last night. Nonetheless, would still like to see some more minutes from STjr., and more time together with Luke.
Was encouraged to see Derrick minute totals come down to 24, I still think he makes his best contribution to the team at 10-15. I don't mind if he starts the beginning of the game and the beginning of second half, but I don't think he should be anywhere near the floor at crunch time.
Ideally, I'd put Derrick at 20 minutes and he has to be in there at the end of games....Carlino especially seems to panic in late game situations.
I believe this is the first of many data points that shows if there are options other than Derrick, he will not be playing 36 minutes a game. I'd like to see Luke get no more than 30 minutes and Steve to get at least 20-25 minutes but he just didn't have it last night.
I think there will be times mid to late in the half where we could see a Carlino, DuWil/JJJ, Juan, Teve, Fischer line-up which would be very interesting.
Aside from Derrick playing 5-10 minutes more than he should have given how poorly he was playing, I have absolutely no quibbles with Wojo's allocation of minutes. We easily defeated a decent opponent, and a big part of it was because Wojo rewarded the players who produced.
Wojo even benched Derrick a couple of times after screw-ups, but Derrick doesn't stay in the doghouse long.
Quote from: bilsu on December 17, 2014, 08:31:55 AM
I think I am the only one that believes Derrick should be in at the end of the game as long as we are in the double bonus. Sure there is the risk of Derrick missing both free throws, but missed free throws are not as disastrous as Carlino turning the ball over. As soon as Carlino is pressed he tries to get rid of the ball. He is like a deer in headlights. Derrick is the only one that can consistently bring the ball up against the press. Duane gets in trouble when ties to push it to fast and ties to split defenders.
I mainly agree with you. If we are in the double bonus and know we are going to get pressed Derrick seems to be the player to handle it. I think I would be more nervous though up 2 with 20 seconds to go. If he bricks both free throws.... well you can run the numbers.
I think if we are up by a decent margin given the time left and the press is on its way, Derrick does seem like the best fit.
And to TAMU's post, also completely agree that Fischer cannot play 30+ minutes right now. Near the end he was so gassed he couldn't even leave his feet for a board.
Quote from: mu03eng on December 17, 2014, 08:35:51 AM
Ideally, I'd put Derrick at 20 minutes and he has to be in there at the end of games....Carlino especially seems to panic in late game situations.
I believe this is the first of many data points that shows if there are options other than Derrick, he will not be playing 36 minutes a game. I'd like to see Luke get no more than 30 minutes and Steve to get at least 20-25 minutes but he just didn't have it last night.
I think there will be times mid to late in the half where we could see a Carlino, DuWil/JJJ, Juan, Teve, Fischer line-up which would be very interesting.
I agree that this the first data point that Derrick will see reduced minutes. It was called out a few weeks ago that having Fischer would push everyone back to their natural position which would reduce Derrick's minutes. Derrick will continue to get 20-25mins. Looking at this minute distribution, is there any sign that Derricks reduced minutes would go to Burton? Those would come from JJJ and Juan so Derrick did not play into Burton's transfer as one would like to believe.
Now that we have serviceable guards and players are in the natural positions Derrick's minutes will decrease and hopefully so will the posts.
Quote from: mu03eng on December 17, 2014, 08:35:51 AM
I believe this is the first of many data points that shows if there are options other than Derrick, he will not be playing 36 minutes a game.
+1
Hopefully it will put some long-standing disagreements to rest.
Quote from: mikekinsellaMVP on December 17, 2014, 08:45:40 AM
+1
Hopefully it will put some long-standing disagreements to rest.
The banhammer falling last night will help as well ;)
Derrick's going to have to be able to feed the post if he wants to keep those major minutes.
Quote from: Texas Western on December 17, 2014, 08:04:18 AM
Our top guys made it hard for Wojo for to take them out of the lineup last night. Nonetheless, would still like to see some more minutes from STjr., and more time together with Luke.
Was encouraged to see Derrick minute totals come down to 24, I still think he makes his best contribution to the team at 10-15. I don't mind if he starts the beginning of the game and the beginning of second half, but I don't think he should be anywhere near the floor at crunch time.
+ gazillion.
Quote from: mikekinsellaMVP on December 17, 2014, 08:19:46 AM
But look that list. Where do the 10-15 minutes he loses go? You want to give more minutes to the guys playing 30+? The only real logical place for them to go is Sandy -- Steve's minutes are going to go up because Luke can't be expected to play 33 every game, and as others have stated, playing them together is a dangerous prospect (in terms of foul trouble) for an 8-man roster with their most difficult competition ahead. The best case is Cohen gets 8-10 with Derrick playing 18-20. I don't think any more is realistic in the near future.
I am not so sure about Steve. He cannot even convert the bunnies. He stands to lose the most with Luke back.
Quote from: CTWarrior on December 17, 2014, 08:57:42 AM
Derrick's going to have to be able to feed the post if he wants to keep those major minutes.
And make FT's.
Quote from: 79Warrior on December 17, 2014, 09:00:29 AM
I am not so sure about Steve. He cannot even convert the bunnies. He stands to lose the most with Luke back.
And he did. But I honestly don't think we can rely on a consistent 30+ from Luke in conference play. And playing with Juan or Sandy as the biggest guy on the court isn't exactly appealing, either.
Quote from: mu03eng on December 17, 2014, 08:49:19 AM
The banhammer falling last night will help as well ;)
WOW. Missed the fireworks. I would have thought rocky would be feeling more charitable in the wake of a big win.
Quote from: willie warrior on December 17, 2014, 09:01:08 AM
And make FT's.
He did it at a better clip then Duane did last night, though that was probably the highlight of his performance.
Quote from: MU82 on December 17, 2014, 08:36:58 AM
Aside from Derrick playing 5-10 minutes more than he should have given how poorly he was playing, I have absolutely no quibbles with Wojo's allocation of minutes. We easily defeated a decent opponent, and a big part of it was because Wojo rewarded the players who produced.
Wojo even benched Derrick a couple of times after screw-ups, but Derrick doesn't stay in the doghouse long.
Are you going to turn those minutes over Pete? We have 8 freakin' scholarship players and play a 3 guard lineup with essentially 4 guys (plus Frosh Sandy as a swing). If you go to a 2 guard lineup all 3 of our bigs need to be on the floor at the same time.
Quote from: mu03eng on December 17, 2014, 08:35:51 AM
I believe this is the first of many data points that shows if there are options other than Derrick, he will not be playing 36 minutes a game. I'd like to see Luke get no more than 30 minutes and Steve to get at least 20-25 minutes but he just didn't have it last night.
I hope you're right.
One thing that I've repeated several times:
I'm sure Buzz/Wojo would love to have another option other than Derrick, but they didn't believe that they did. JJJ and Duane were great last night, so it's really easy to put Derrick on the bench. In the next game, if JJJ blows a bunch of defensive assignments, then you'll see more of Derrick.
Basically, I think Derrick has played a lot out of necessity, not choice. If the other kids play well, then the coach will play them instead.
Quote from: mikekinsellaMVP on December 17, 2014, 09:06:23 AM
WOW. Missed the fireworks. I would have thought rocky would be feeling more charitable in the wake of a big win.
He WAS being charitable, to everyone else on this board. Christmas came early on Scoop.
If we had it my way.
Luke would be down a little. Derrick would be down. Juan down just a tad. Duane and JJJ about the same(assuming good performance) Carlino about the same maybe down a bit. Cohen and Steve up and actually in flow.
Juan- 34
Duane- 32
JJJ- 30
Fischer-30
Carlino-27
Derrick-17
30 minutes between Steve and Sandy. Now Steve should get at least 15. Cohen's share depends more on how he looks. His "15" can give a few to Derrick, Matt or Steve and be 8-10 if he's not doing much.
80 minutes up front. Split relatively evenly between Luke, Juan, STjr, with Sandy getting occasional minutes
120 minutes in the backcourt. Roughly 30 minutes each between Duane, Carlino, Derrick, and JJJ, with Sandy getting occasional minutes at the 3.
I know the argument that they are young, that they hadn't played in 10 days....I just disagree with it. There will be nights like last night where Wojo rides the hot hands, but I simply think it isn't going to work long term having guys play >35 minutes a game.
I think I recall a brief period where Wojo did have all of Luke, Steve and Juan in the game during the first half. Maybe 1-2 minutes.
When all three of them successfully got to halftime with a single foul each, I think it has the potential for further utilization in the second half in upcoming games. An early second half foul by Luke may have prevented Wojo from going that way last night.
Reflecting back, I do think Wojo could have given Steve a longer second half run. By the end Luke had lost some effectiveness seen a bit on the defensive end.
But all this is nitpicking. We just played our best basketball of the season. And we all saw areas of possible improvement. Life's good.
Quote from: jsglow on December 17, 2014, 09:09:16 AM
Are you going to turn those minutes over Pete? We have 8 freakin' scholarship players and play a 3 guard lineup with essentially 4 guys (plus Frosh Sandy as a swing). If you go to a 2 guard lineup all 3 of our bigs need to be on the floor at the same time.
I'd have probably thrown Cohen back out there for another try after he was yanked. But as I said I had no major quibbles.
Wojo seems to have a pretty nice feel for this stuff already. As is the case with a few of our players, our coach also has a high ceiling.
Quote from: tower912 on December 17, 2014, 11:54:20 AM
80 minutes up front. Split relatively evenly between Luke, Juan, STjr, with Sandy getting occasional minutes
120 minutes in the backcourt. Roughly 30 minutes each between Duane, Carlino, Derrick, and JJJ, with Sandy getting occasional minutes at the 3.
I know the argument that they are young, that they hadn't played in 10 days....I just disagree with it. There will be nights like last night where Wojo rides the hot hands, but I simply think it isn't going to work long term having guys play >35 minutes a game.
Especially during the BEast when we're playing twice a week against top competition. All our top line guys can go 30-32. I personally think 37 is too much. I think it was fine last night after a long layoff and with an upcoming schedule. In some ways it was too bad that we didn't hold the 15-20 point lead because it might have allowed for some late subs. We benefit if we can reduce the game from 200 total minutes to 180 'competitive' minutes.
Quote from: mikekinsellaMVP on December 17, 2014, 09:07:16 AM
He did it at a better clip then Duane did last night, though that was probably the highlight of his performance.
hope you are not implying that Derrick is a better FT shooter than Duane. If so, I have $100 to bet on that.
Quote from: CTWarrior on December 17, 2014, 08:57:42 AM
Derrick's going to have to be able to feed the post if he wants to keep those major minutes.
It was beautiful seeing Wojo give Derrick the hook after failing twice in a row to feed Luke, who had battled hard to get great position. And I say that not only because it was Derrick; Wojo should do the same regardless of who screws up like that -- it's that important.
You pull him, let him know why and then put him back in. The next time, Derrick did feed the post properly and Luke scored.
With the middle-school team I coach, I call it "playing right." Kids -- whether they are 6 or 22 -- will make mistakes. But a coach can't let avoidable mistakes just slide. He must constantly reinforce the concept of "playing right."
I think Wojo is doing a very good job of this so far.
Quote from: bilsu on December 17, 2014, 08:31:55 AM
I think I am the only one that believes Derrick should be in at the end of the game as long as we are in the double bonus. Sure there is the risk of Derrick missing both free throws, but missed free throws are not as disastrous as Carlino turning the ball over. As soon as Carlino is pressed he tries to get rid of the ball. He is like a deer in headlights. Derrick is the only one that can consistently bring the ball up against the press. Duane gets in trouble when ties to push it to fast and ties to split defenders.
I agree. Even with Derrick's usually weak FT shooting, I'd rather have him at the line shooting two, than have a high risk of Carlino, JJJ or Duane turning it over for easy points on the other end.
I'd also note that Derrick's FT shooting has improved pretty significantly over the course of the season. Over the first five games, he was an abysmal 2-10. In the last four, he is a much improved 9-15.
Quote from: MU82 on December 17, 2014, 12:04:42 PM
I'd have probably thrown Cohen back out there for another try after he was yanked. But as I said I had no major quibbles.
Wojo seems to have a pretty nice feel for this stuff already. As is the case with a few of our players, our coach also has a high ceiling.
Good enough. Perhaps the combined total for Derrick, Steve, and Sandy ought be in the 40-50 minute range. Last night it was a more modest 35. I think that asks an awful lot out of 5 other guys and could be a cause for concern, long term. Sure Wojo rode the hot hand. But I want all these guys to contribute and it's a long season.
By the way, I remain in favor of having Derrick (and to a much lesser extent Steve) continue to start. I think Derrick's principle value to this team is via his leadership and work ethic. Even if more skilled players start to take a good chunk of his minutes, he is still their Captain and will be a principal catalyst in their development this season. I absolutely want each and every one of our guys to feel valued because we're not going anywhere with all of them.
Quote from: willie warrior on December 17, 2014, 12:05:47 PM
hope you are not implying that Derrick is a better FT shooter than Duane. If so, I have $100 to bet on that.
I, mikekinsellaMVP, bet that on the night of 12/16/2014, Derrick Wilson was a better free throw shooter than Duane Wilson. Want to shake on it?
If you're going to be critical of a guy, don't pick the one aspect where he actually showed improvement.
Saw a lot last night that bodes well for the rest of the season. Luke truly makes us a different team on both sides of the court. Maybe less so with tougher competition but still an improvement. Forget the quibbling about minutes played by whom. Wojo is doing an outstanding job for a first year head coach with less than 10 games under his belt!!!!
He's been flexible with his approach to how the game is played with the type of talent and ability he has. ST is certainly not a presence like Luke looks like he can be, for sure. The game will change mightily for us when Luke sits and/or gets in foul trouble.
The bad parts of the game last night was we left at least 14-16 points on the floor by missing bunnies and layups, negating some defensive turn overs. Free throw shooting was awful and we turned a potential 30 point blow out into a single digit win by the infractions listed before and playing very sloppily in the last three minutes with terrible ball handling and passing. If they were tired better conditioning is in order. We can only go with who we have and they need to be able to handle it.
But the signs are good if we improve in some areas and allow Wojo to learn on-the-job as well but I think we'll be surprising come conference.......
Quote from: axaguy on December 17, 2014, 02:17:33 PM
He's been flexible with his approach to how the game is played with the type of talent and ability he has. ST is certainly not a presence like Luke looks like he can be, for sure. The game will change mightily for us when Luke sits and/or gets in foul trouble.
IMO we should've reverted back to the zone which has been effective when Fischer went out.
Carlino and Anderson finished with 4 fouls last. I believe Carlino is the only player who has fouled out this year. There is going to be a game where Cohen is forced to play major minutes.
Quote from: bilsu on December 17, 2014, 02:54:30 PM
Carlino and Anderson finished with 4 fouls last. I believe Carlino is the only player who has fouled out this year. There is going to be a game where Cohen is forced to play major minutes.
Agreed. It's great our team is showing a consistency of pretty much staying out of foul trouble. But it hits every team at some point in at least a game or 2. Cohen will have to be ready.
We got away with play 6 guys yesterday because we played fast and brought it to them. Had them sending us to the line repeatedly(or more notably Duane).
Quote from: mikekinsellaMVP on December 17, 2014, 12:59:04 PM
I, mikekinsellaMVP, bet that on the night of 12/16/2014, Derrick Wilson was a better free throw shooter than Duane Wilson. Want to shake on it?
If you're going to be critical of a guy, don't pick the one aspect where he actually showed improvement.
For the entire season--you don't go by one game--except you do. And there are plenty of areas to be critical, including FT shooting.
Quote from: willie warrior on December 17, 2014, 03:12:44 PM
For the entire season--you don't go by one game--except you do. And there are plenty of areas to be critical, including FT shooting.
For the year so far:
Du. Wilson 37-49, 75% includes 8 misses last night. If he had made just four of those misses, it's 83% for year.
De. Wilson 11-25, 44%
Quote from: nyg on December 17, 2014, 03:57:31 PM
For the year so far:
Du. Wilson 37-49, 75% includes 8 misses last night. If he had made just four of those misses, it's 83% for year.
De. Wilson 11-25, 44%
guys, guys, guys......lets not do this
:)
Quote from: mu03eng on December 17, 2014, 04:05:11 PM
guys, guys, guys......lets not do this
:)
Sorry, I instigated. Someone's got to fill the void. ;D
The point I meant to make is if Duane's aggressiveness is going to get him 17 FTA a game, yesterday is hopefully an outlier rather than backsliding.
Quote from: bilsu on December 17, 2014, 02:54:30 PM
Carlino and Anderson finished with 4 fouls last. I believe Carlino is the only player who has fouled out this year. There is going to be a game where Cohen is forced to play major minutes.
That's because Carlino is a horrible defensive player who is lazy with his feet so he reaches almost all game long. You could call it tight and he would foul out by halftime.
Quote from: mikekinsellaMVP on December 17, 2014, 08:19:46 AM
But look that list. Where do the 10-15 minutes he loses go? You want to give more minutes to the guys playing 30+? The only real logical place for them to go is Sandy -- Steve's minutes are going to go up because Luke can't be expected to play 33 every game, and as others have stated, playing them together is a dangerous prospect (in terms of foul trouble) for an 8-man roster with their most difficult competition ahead. The best case is Cohen gets 8-10 with Derrick playing 18-20. I don't think any more is realistic in the near future.
This is what all the Derrick bashers seem to fail to grasp. We simply don't have more bodies to play those minutes. The simple truth is most college teams don't play the bulk of their guys 30+ minutes per game, and if Derrick is playing less than 20, that will be the reality.
Derrick had a poor outing last night for most of the game, though he was better in the last 10 minutes. Was able to settle down the offense, helped create a few baskets, and at least didn't screw things up.
We pretty much need to play everyone if we want to have a chance to be winning games. The team I remember most vividly is the Providence team from 2012. They played 4 guys 30+ minutes, but despite having a good group of players in Council, Henton, Cotton, and Coleman, couldn't get many wins, largely because they were all gassed. Like it or not, Derrick needs to play. We just don't have the bodies to keep him glued to the bench for 25 minutes per night.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 17, 2014, 04:48:00 PM
This is what all the Derrick bashers seem to fail to grasp. We simply don't have more bodies to play those minutes. The simple truth is most college teams don't play the bulk of their guys 30+ minutes per game, and if Derrick is playing less than 20, that will be the reality.
Derrick had a poor outing last night for most of the game, though he was better in the last 10 minutes. Was able to settle down the offense, helped create a few baskets, and at least didn't screw things up.
We pretty much need to play everyone if we want to have a chance to be winning games. The team I remember most vividly is the Providence team from 2012. They played 4 guys 30+ minutes, but despite having a good group of players in Council, Henton, Cotton, and Coleman, couldn't get many wins, largely because they were all gassed. Like it or not, Derrick needs to play. We just don't have the bodies to keep him glued to the bench for 25 minutes per night.
I don't think there's anyone on this board who's not banned that needs this explanation and the one who is banned doesn't listen anyway.
I'm not a fan of Derrick Wilson either, and I find his game excruciating to watch, but even I have been on record defending his minutes this season due to the team's make up.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on December 17, 2014, 04:57:24 PM
I don't think there's anyone on this board who's not banned that needs this explanation and the one who is banned doesn't listen anyway.
Probably true :D
I just have seen the 10-15 minutes quoted so often, not only from him, that it seems some people expect us to have 6 guys (none of whom are Derrick) play 30 minutes, and split the remaining 20 between Derrick and Sandy. Just not very realistic.