1. The Buckeyes were better. No shame in that.
2. MU had to be perfect. MU wasn't.
3. This team will fight. Wojo has been coaching these guys very well on zone offense.
4. The defensive combination that tOSU was playing is lethal. Man press back to a Syracuse zone? Wow.
5. Transition defense was very bad.
6. MU did a great job of defending without fouling. I was worried for nothing.
7. Just not big enough, deep enough, or experienced enough for this game.
8. Nice game, STjr!
9. Need more scoring from Carlino.
10. Cohen continues to be fearless, but he is only a frosh.
11. Duane, Deonte, JJJ are all showing flashes and will get better.
The future is not bleak.
It ain't over till it's over Tower!!!!
Good post. I'm looking forward to watching this team get better and get some height in December. I think the Warriors might surprise some.
I was impressed tonight. Throw in Luke and we have an outside shot at a NCAA bid.
I'm actually stoked for the next few years. If Henry stick around look out.
Gona be so fun here soon.
Love Cohen and JJJ
Pretty soft. In all facets.
Burton is not showing any flashes. He played 12 minutes in the opener and tonight everyone but Dawson played more minutes than him. No idea of what is going on, I know he lost his Mom, but something is not right. Wojo pulled him quickly twice after making blunders on the court. He was to be the offensive threat and a "Bane", like some have called him. Hope this resolves soon.
Duane Wilson got a bunch of time on court in last 10 minutes, think Wojo is experimenting with his guards.
Wojo had Juan bringing up the ball all night, interesting concept.
Coach Matta changed strategy in second half and pounded ball inside. MU no size to OSU and they used that with lots of layups.
MU doesn't hit threes, it will be long nights.
Great experience for the youngsters playing at OSU.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on November 18, 2014, 08:17:39 PM
I was impressed tonight. Throw in Luke and we have an outside shot at a NCAA bid.
At large bid. No.
But add luke and I'm more optimistic we can compete in BE at least.
Have SHU upset nova again and we could get a auto bid!! Who knows.
Always enjoys Tower's thoughts. Carlino surprises me with his passing. He seemed to hit Taylor with some really nice looks. Cohen is a revelation.
I don't think anybody looked too good defensively.
It's a work in progress, but, at least to me, this looks like a team that enjoys playing with each other. That's important.
Quote from: Stone Cold on November 18, 2014, 08:19:11 PM
Pretty soft. In all facets.
Explain? I thought they held their own for having only seven guys. I haven't looked at the box score but rebounds seemed to be pretty even. Sure they got gassed but do you blame them?
It appeared the MU defense is behind the MU offense in development. Appeared to be many missed defensive assignments. In any regards, the team looks promising. A number of aspects for them to improve on, but I am optimistic they will.
but did we come dangerously close to finish with only 4 players?
seriously, DW minutes need to go to Duane Wilson, Sandy Cohen
only real big disappoint was th transition defense...
Get Fischer, give DeW minutes to DuW and this team may be pretty good...
Quote from: tower912 on November 18, 2014, 08:11:56 PM
1. The Buckeyes were better. No shame in that.
2. MU had to be perfect. MU wasn't.
3. This team will fight. Wojo has been coaching these guys very well on zone offense.
4. The defensive combination that tOSU was playing is lethal. Man press back to a Syracuse zone? Wow.
5. Transition defense was very bad.
6. MU did a great job of defending without fouling. I was worried for nothing.
7. Just not big enough, deep enough, or experienced enough for this game.
8. Nice game, STjr!
9. Need more scoring from Carlino.
10. Cohen continues to be fearless, but he is only a frosh.
11. Duane, Deonte, JJJ are all showing flashes and will get better.
The future is not bleak.
Will see this zone all year. Zone offense actually looked good. Shots were there. With Fischer, Steve and Juan get to play their natural positions. Give me some Du.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on November 18, 2014, 08:23:14 PM
At large bid. No.
Steal a few big wins and finish top 4 in conference and there is a shot. I agree it's unlikely, but it's not that unrealistic.
It was about what I expected. Defense definitely looked gassed in the second half. Would like to see Dawson in there for at least some spot minutes to give the others a rest. Getting Luke will definitely help.
Only got outrebounded by three. That's much much better than I expected.
Ohio State was unconscious from three in the first half. If they shoot a normal 3P% in that half, this is a close ball game.
Love having a PG that can shoot the three but Carlino's trigger finger was a little sweaty.
Derrick Wilson for three!!! A sure sign of the end of days.
TreyJ started off great and than got ice cold. 0-4 from three.
Taylor had a great offensive game but made some key mistakes. Less dribbles and more dunks for him.
The turning point in this game is when Taylor killed an easy 2 and 0 fast break by looking over his shoulder for the defense and bouncing the ball off his knee and out of bounds. If he passes that ball to TreyJ its an easy dunk. Would have cut the lead to 7 if I recall. OSU ended up going on a 6-0 run after that.
Work to do but this team will get better as the season goes on.
Transition defense was the difference. That and OSU being better at basketball.
We lost to these suckers last year and the season still turned out just fine, hey?
Quote from: madtownwarrior on November 18, 2014, 08:28:16 PM
but did we come dangerously close to finish with only 4 players?
seriously, DW minutes need to go to Duane Wilson, Sandy Cohen
only real big disappoint was th transition defense...
Get Fischer, give DeW minutes to DuW and this team may be pretty good...
Duane played garbage time hero. Before that he did nothing for MU. 0 points, 0 rebounds, 0 assists, 2 turnovers 0-2 from 3 and was out of place on defense. The time at the end made me hopeful but he's not ready.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on November 18, 2014, 08:29:41 PM
Steal a few big wins and finish top 4 in conference and there is a shot. I agree it's unlikely, but it's not that unrealistic.
Yeah I guess I shouldn't outright dismiss it. But I think rattling off 3 straight at MSG is more likely.
For at large we likely have to beat MSU(not beating wisky) and like you said finish high in BE.
I think we're more 6th/7th in BE but a very competitive 6/7.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 18, 2014, 08:32:53 PM
Duane played garbage time hero. Before that he did nothing for MU. 0 points, 0 rebounds, 0 assists, 2 turnovers 0-2 from 3 and was out of place on defense. The time at the end made me hopeful but he's not ready.
He had gorgeous in the lane pass to STJ for an easy two before the game got out of hand. Not an easy play at all. The kid is two games into his collegiate career for crying out loud!!!
Quote from: TallTitan34 on November 18, 2014, 08:26:08 PM
Explain?
Lots of positives. Guys moved the ball great against the zone. Didn't hit our shots.
But our guys had no fire/killer instinct. Soft mentality to start. Then I saw way too many uncontested lay ups on D. Nobody sliding over to help. You need to have help rotation no matter who you play. There was some good on D too.
Hopefully as they gain experience they gain that toughness to be competitive on the road.
I do think OSU will match up well with Bucky though...
It's pretty simple why we lost - OSU- lots of offensive firepower. MU- little firepower, and then to top it off TWO blown breakaways. It wouldn't have made any difference in the end had they converted those two, but come on guys, second game or twenty second game, not excusable!! That still frosts me just thinking about those blown plays.
Quote from: Stone Cold on November 18, 2014, 08:34:18 PM
Lots of positives. Guys moved the ball great against the zone. Didn't hit our shots.
But our guys had no fire/killer instinct. Soft mentality to start. Then I saw way too many uncontested lay ups on D. Nobody sliding over to help. You need to have help rotation no matter who you play. There was some good on D too.
Hopefully as they gain experience they gain that toughness to be competitive on the road.
I thought the uncontested layups came more in the second half when they were gassed. That's going to be a huge problem all season even when Luke is ready.
Quote from: nyg on November 18, 2014, 08:22:30 PM
Burton is not showing any flashes. He played 12 minutes in the opener and tonight everyone but Dawson played more minutes than him. No idea of what is going on, I know he lost his Mom, but something is not right. Wojo pulled him quickly twice after making blunders on the court. He was to be the offensive threat and a "Bane", like some have called him. Hope this resolves soon.
Burton played 12 minutes in the opener because he picked up 4 fouls in only 12 minutes. Why? Because for all his talent, he's really raw.
I really hope people here have some patience with Burton. Everybody gets excited over his flashes (which you should), but those moments are overshadowing a player that is struggling defensively and with his decision making. The talent is there, but there's a lot of learning to go before Burton becomes a real force.
Just think how good STJ will be on both ends when he's got a legit big playing next to him. I said it back in summer that he'll be the most improved. He's a darn good player.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 18, 2014, 08:29:55 PM
Only got outrebounded by three. That's much much better than I expected.
Was this because of good positioning or because there were no misses to rebound? OSU only had one offensive rebound.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on November 18, 2014, 08:37:38 PM
I thought the uncontested layups came more in the second half when they were gassed. That's going to be a huge problem all season even when Luke is ready.
We did look gassed - and although we only played 8 - I don't feel there is an excuse for the guys to be gassed (other than perhaps Steve/Juan). Wojo may need to ratchet up the pre-season conditioning. OSU played 10 guys...we played 8...and chose not to even play 1 of our guys for whatever reason.
Comments
1) Need to learn to guard the back door.
2) Not a knock on Juan but don't we have guards to bring the ball up?
3) Can someone move the ball up faster to cross half court?
4) Freshman type mistake on the open dunk early in the game.
5) Need active playing from everyone on the court looking to either score or set up a score. Passing by someone needs to be more than just getting rid of the ball. There needs to be a purpose.
6) Overall this team is already better than last year's team. We will have some positive surprises this year. STjr gained confidence and it showed in his play against a much stronger team.
7) Team did not give up. They keep coming.
8) Even in a loss this team is fun to watch. They will grow and become better each game. This will be an exciting season.
9) ESPN Announcer's made little Dickie V sound like a professional. They were painful to listen to.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on November 18, 2014, 08:37:38 PM
I thought the uncontested layups came more in the second half when they were gassed. That's going to be a huge problem all season even when Luke is ready.
The uncontested dunks (I didn't see OSU laying many in!), were because we stunk at defending simple pick and roll plays.
Not discouraged after this game. There were some rough spots and some bright spots.
-Taylor missed some bunnies and needs to be a bit more efficient around the rim but overall a nice game for him. Until Luke is eligible he is indispensable to this team. Looking forward to him as a senior.
-Carlino is solid. He will take some bad shots from time to time but he has a nice shot and I'm comfortable when the balls is in his hands.
-Duane had a nice second half. Would definitely like to see him earn more time as the season progresses. Would like to see him and Carlino on the court together as they are both threats to hit from deep.
-Cohen is going to be a player, especially when he puts some weight on. He could be a very nice piece going forward and if he is a 4 year player he could be very, very good.
-Deonte is obviously struggling. Had one nice move around the rim but just a poor night. We know what he is capable of so I hope this is just a short rough patch. I'll cut him some slack considering what he's gone through recently.
-JJJ had a tough night shooting - I'll be curious to see how consistent he is from the perimeter. Had a couple of nice moves and played the passing lanes well at times. As he finally will get consistent court time I expect to see a much better player come February/March.
-I felt like we got some really nice looks and ball movement against the zone. It's still early and I don't have a lot to base it on but I think Wojo will be solid from a coaching perspective and will continue to improve.
I'm intrigued to see how this team looks from February on once we get Luke back and the young guys continue to get time and hopefully improve. There is quite a bit of talent here. I don't expect an at-large bid but I could see the pieces coming together to win the conference tourney.
Quote from: Stone Cold on November 18, 2014, 08:34:18 PM
Lots of positives. Guys moved the ball great against the zone. Didn't hit our shots.
But our guys had no fire/killer instinct. Soft mentality to start. Then I saw way too many uncontested lay ups on D. Nobody sliding over to help. You need to have help rotation no matter who you play. There was some good on D too.
Hopefully as they gain experience they gain that toughness to be competitive on the road.
Hate these types of comments
One more I forgot: Wojo doesn't save his time outs.
Maybe it's the players on the roster, or just coincidence, but from the box score it looked a lot like a Buzz game (I only caught the last 8 minutes on TV). Make more FT than they shoot, can't make any 3s, the opponent makes tons of 3s, get it inside to the big guys (Taylor, in this case).
tOSU was very wise to pick us up full court on D. Doesn't take much to wear down 8 dudes over a 40 minute game in that scenario, aina?
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 18, 2014, 08:44:45 PM
Maybe it's the players on the roster, or just coincidence, but from the box score it looked a lot like a Buzz game (I only caught the last 8 minutes on TV). Make more FT than they shoot, can't make any 3s, the opponent makes tons of 3s, get it inside to the big guys (Taylor, in this case).
It is a very different team even if the stats don't necessarily show it. Having guards that can pass is why Steve Taylor scored versus having a Davante muscle it.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 18, 2014, 08:42:32 PM
Not discouraged after this game. There were some rough spots and some bright spots.
-Taylor missed some bunnies and needs to be a bit more efficient around the rim but overall a nice game for him. Until Luke is eligible he is indispensable to this team. Looking forward to him as a senior.
He was 9/14 from the floor, with 20 pts!! Let's nit pick over our best offensive player of the night against a top 20 team. I guess since he wasn't perfect, let's find fault with his performance.
I thought the defense was at worst lazy and at best poorly coached. I've seen smaller teams defend much better in the paint, especially when tOSU has their gameplan tattooed on their foreheads. No rotation whatsoever
Also, Juan Anderson is not good at all
Wojo has to grow the man
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on November 18, 2014, 08:48:23 PM
He was 9/14 from the floor, with 20 pts!! Let's nit pick over our best offensive player of the night against a top 20 team. I guess since he wasn't perfect, let's find fault with his performance.
That's not nitpicking in the least. It was an honest observation. I said he was indispensable......
Chill.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on November 18, 2014, 08:48:23 PM
He was 9/14 from the floor, with 20 pts!! Let's nit pick over our best offensive player of the night against a top 20 team. I guess since he wasn't perfect, let's find fault with his performance.
Dude. Calm down.
He said overall nice game from Steve and that he's indispensable. Steve does miss a lot of bunnies. But yes, he was very helpful tonight and will be going forward.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 18, 2014, 08:46:34 PM
tOSU was very wise to pick us up full court on D. Doesn't take much to wear down 8 dudes over a 40 minute game in that scenario, aina?
Yeah, Thad Matta knows what he's doing.
Quote from: MUsoxfan on November 18, 2014, 08:48:52 PM
I thought the defense was at worst lazy and at best poorly coached. I've seen smaller teams defend much better in the paint, especially when tOSU has their gameplan tattooed on their foreheads. No rotation whatsoever
Also, Juan Anderson is not good at all
Juan is Juan, he's a role player, he can make a few plays around the basket, he has some athleticism that can help team rebounding and D, but he's not a front line player for a good team.
He was horrid against the press tonight- he dribbles one clearly off his own foot, and he make no attempt to retrieve it. WTF Juan?
Quote from: MUsoxfan on November 18, 2014, 08:48:52 PM
Also, Juan Anderson is not good at all
I wouldn't say that. Lets remember this is one of the longest and talented teams we'll play. He made some good passes and played pretty good d. Is he going to be great? No. But he was average today.
As I said in game thread our kids played nervously. Totally understandable given they are playing a top 20 on the road for the first time. Once they learn they how to relax and trust their skills they will be fine. We had lots of blown opportunities all night long which is the bad news. The good news is we kept making the opportunities. A couple of cupcakes to build our confidence and then I think we have a real chance at doing some good things in Orlando.
Wojo and Company will get Deonte back on track soon enough. Once he learns that he doesn't have to be the man every play he will start doing great things again.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on November 18, 2014, 08:52:40 PM
Dude. Calm down.
He said overall nice game from Steve and that he's indispensable. Steve does miss a lot of bunnies. But yes, he was very helpful tonight and will be going forward.
+1
Quote from: MUsoxfan on November 18, 2014, 08:48:52 PM
I thought the defense was at worst lazy and at best poorly coached. I've seen smaller teams defend much better in the paint, especially when tOSU has their gameplan tattooed on their foreheads. No rotation whatsoever
Not sure if the poor defense was due to coaching, but I was frequently yelling "lookout!" as a wide open Buckeye streaked to the basket (or made a three) because someone forgot to rotate or switch. Seemed to me it was Carlino missing the rotation more often than not ... but I might be wrong.
I saw tentative decision making from MU while we were on defense, which tells me they simply need more playing time together.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on November 18, 2014, 08:38:57 PM
Just think how good STJ will be on both ends when he's got a legit big playing next to him. I said it back in summer that he'll be the most improved. He's a darn good player.
Thought of that a couple times. Especially against OSU's defensive scheme - we handled the press ok, but couldn't exploit it so it tired the thin rotation out. Two post options that will leave open or a favorable one-on-one matchup at worst and gives a chance to push it down court and do that. Zone offense execution could also look much better if Taylor was a four and a Fischer was the true post.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 18, 2014, 08:43:04 PM
One more I forgot: Wojo doesn't save his time outs.
I was very pleased with this. None of the "learn to play through it" BS; the purpose of timeouts is to use them so you don't have to play through it. They also responded well out of a couple of the timeouts.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on November 18, 2014, 08:48:23 PM
He was 9/14 from the floor, with 20 pts!! Let's nit pick over our best offensive player of the night against a top 20 team. I guess since he wasn't perfect, let's find fault with his performance.
Thought he gave a fair assessment. He will have to improve like everyone else - he should have went for 30 and 15 with how poorly they played him. But without him we lose by 30 and are grossly out-rebounded instead of only 26-23. Another encouraging performance for someone coming off a lost season.
No. Carlino did take some possessions off on D. Need to work on help defense for sure and lane protection.
When our guards start to penetrate and break down the defense, Juan should take the shot immediately if he has it or pass immediately. Taylor seems to understand that. We desperately need people to rebound. If Juan defends and rebounds and plays smart BB on offense that would be outstanding.
Expected a bigger loss...but MU kept it fairly close. Guys played very hard. Just too small. This team may do a bit better than expected.
Didn't miss Buzzy's hockey-line substitutions tonight.
Quote from: nyg on November 18, 2014, 08:22:30 PM
MU doesn't hit threes, it will be long nights.
Exactly.
This team is Villanova without the interior toughness and domination and without perimeter shooting.
Tough road until Luke jumps on board.
Meanwhile, Kentucky's rippin' Kansas a new one, hey?
How about that Sandy Cohen, though. Kid is silky smooth. Would have been nice to get him a few more shots.
Through two games it is so obvious that Carlino is our best PG, no one else is even close to him. Really impressed with how easily he finds open guys in position to score it and he is always looking to get transition buckets. He was an underrated passer coming in, I never heard or read that much about his game from that standpoint this summer.
Probably would have won this game had Derrick sat out injured.
Quote from: Stone Cold on November 18, 2014, 09:04:10 PM
How about that Sandy Cohen, though. Kid is silky smooth. Would have been nice to get him a few more shots.
Agreed...But man is he clueless on defense right now.
Carlino seems like a poor man's Diener, which makes him pretty good.
* Steve has a nice game offensively--as he always seems to against the zone--and on the boards, only marred by a couple of bad defensive lapses
* Team did better than expected on the boards. Of course that's easier when the other team is hooting over 60%
* Very encouraged by Duane. Sure, some freshman errors, but the kid can play
* Deonte, ouch. Simply need to get on track on both ends.
* tOSU just too good right now for MU, especially at home.
* Juan: better than last year, but still struggles against good competition
* Carlino make some sweet passes
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 18, 2014, 09:08:03 PM
Probably would have won this game had Derrick sat out injured.
Derrick seems like the kind of kid that you'd want your daughter to marry, but man, he just gives us nothing. Good on ball defense, that's about it. Tony Miller never shot it very well, but he was an occasional threat to hit some threes, and he was a master at getting the ball in the right hands. Derrick never seems to make plays for others.
I see Duane Wilson quickly passing Derrick by in terms of contributing. He's already passed him by maybe. Really like Duane's game, he's inexperienced and raw, but he has obvious physical skills that can't be taught.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on November 18, 2014, 09:09:44 PM
Derrick seems like the kind of kid that you'd want your daughter to marry, but man, he just gives us nothing. Good on ball defense, that's about it. Tony Miller never shot it very well, but he was an occasional threat to hit some threes, and he was a master at getting the ball in the right hands. Derrick never seems to make plays for others.
Derrick really struggles with the entry pass. Time after time he'd get the ball outside the three point line, hold it and stare in for 3 seconds, and then just flip it back around the perimeter.
Derrick against a zone is not gonna be too productive for us offensively. Then again it would be nice if he could penetrate the seam more for the kick out.
That said, Duane's D with Burton, and the young guys would leave us way too exposed on D over long stretches.
Hate to say it, but would've been nice to have Mayo against the zone.
Quote from: T Diamond Smith34 on November 18, 2014, 09:12:04 PM
Derrick really struggles with the entry pass. Time after time he'd get the ball outside the three point line, hold it and stare in for 3 seconds, and then just flip it back around the perimeter.
That's a good point and describes well what he did tonight. It's just getting to the point of, do we want to win, or be nice to the seniors? When a guy who can't shoot at all (and that may be understating it), he's got to be able to penetrate, drive, kick, drop the ball off in the paint, etc., and he just doesn't do that. So he can't shoot or create, that's a bad combination for a 6'0 guard. You can't win with a guy like that. They're just playing 4 against 5 on the offensive end when he's in the game.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on November 18, 2014, 09:16:29 PM
That's a good point and describes well what he did tonight. It's just getting to the point of, do we want to win, or be nice to the seniors? When a guy who can't shoot at all (and that may be understating it), he's got to be able to penetrate, drive, kick, drop the ball off in the paint, etc., and he just doesn't do that. So he can't shoot or create, that's a bad combination for a 6'0 guard. You can't win with a guy like that. They're just playing 4 against 5 on the offensive end when he's in the game.
This is actually funny. We have the first official mention of 4 on 5 d/t Derrick for the 2014-15 season.
Quote from: Stone Cold on November 18, 2014, 09:14:27 PM
Hate to say it, but would've been nice to have Mayo against the zone.
He was a streak shooter at best. That and he was a turnover machine and turnstile on defense. He saw plenty of zone in his MU career and more often than not, did little or nothing to help us beat a zone. Don't miss him at all and he wouldn't have made one bit of difference tonight.
Quote from: Class71 on November 18, 2014, 08:41:02 PM
Comments
9) ESPN Announcer's made little Dickie V sound like a professional. They were painful to listen to.
What didn't you like about Wischusen and Dakich?
Believe me coaches (Buzz and Wojo) realize Derrick is limited offensively. However he's our best on ball defender so he gets pt, to keep us respectable on D. Until Duane and co. figure it out, get used to it.
It's clear that Carlino should be the starting PG and Duane should get the back up minutes. Derrick got 19 tonight. Should be 10-12.
A lot of people thought we would be a lot better last year if we had Duane, I think he will be a good player eventually nut wasn't tonight and that make me wonder how much time he would have gotten last year with a coach who barley played freshmen
Quote from: T Diamond Smith34 on November 18, 2014, 09:12:04 PM
Derrick really struggles with the entry pass. Time after time he'd get the ball outside the three point line, hold it and stare in for 3 seconds, and then just flip it back around the perimeter.
Fixed.
And did you really think it was going to be any different with him this year??
Mayo scored 11 ppg and was a 46% shooter last year. To say we couldn't have used his offensive game against a zone when we couldn't hit a shot is silly.
Quote from: MU72491 on November 18, 2014, 09:20:28 PM
A lot of people thought we would be a lot better last year if we had Duane, I think he will be a good player eventually nut wasn't tonight and that make me wonder how much time he would have gotten last year with a coach who barley played freshmen
I think we will be happy that Duane redshirted.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 18, 2014, 09:19:47 PM
It's clear that Carlino should be the starting PG and Duane should get the back up minutes. Derrick got 19 tonight. Should be 10-12.
Take out the ones in your minutes range for him, and then I agree. Just tired of what a non player he is.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on November 18, 2014, 09:16:29 PM
That's a good point and describes well what he did tonight. It's just getting to the point of, do we want to win, or be nice to the seniors? When a guy who can't shoot at all (and that may be understating it), he's got to be able to penetrate, drive, kick, drop the ball off in the paint, etc., and he just doesn't do that. So he can't shoot or create, that's a bad combination for a 6'0 guard. You can't win with a guy like that. They're just playing 4 against 5 on the offensive end when he's in the game.
Let's see how the rotation evolves. Duane clearly has a lot more natural ability than Derrick but we need to give him time. I get the feeling Dawson will get the least amount of time (unless there is an injury). Once we have everyone I would love to see an 8 man rotation (in no particular order) of Carlino, Duane, JJJ, Burton, Juan, Cohen, STJ and Fischer. I'd really like to see what that group could do after a solid 2 months of playing together.
Quote from: Stone Cold on November 18, 2014, 09:21:33 PM
Mayo scored 11 ppg and was a 46% shooter last year. To say we couldn't have used his offensive game against a zone when we couldn't hit a shot is silly.
Yes, and for those gaudy stats, we were two games over .500 with no postseason.
Quote from: mupanther on November 18, 2014, 09:19:25 PM
What didn't you like about Wischusen and Dakich?
I agree. This was one of the few games where I was not completely annoyed by the announcers and/or refs.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 18, 2014, 09:19:47 PM
It's clear that Carlino should be the starting PG and Duane should get the back up minutes. Derrick got 19 tonight. Should be 10-12.
Hey - we agree! I see no reason why Derrick should ever be on the floor when Carlino is in the game. If Wojo doesn't trust Duane with the ball to bring it up, then you use Derrick to do that when you are giving Carlino a breather. Those extra 9 minutes you speak of tonight (those above 10) could have been given to Cohen or Duane or Dawson for that matter - all of whom pose a much better threat to score. And quite frankly, Derrick the defender is good - but not great.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 18, 2014, 09:22:17 PM
Let's see how the rotation evolves. Duane clearly has a lot more natural ability than Derrick but we need to give him time. I get the feeling Dawson will get the least amount of time (unless there is an injury). Once we have everyone I would love to see an 8 man rotation (in no particular order) of Carlino, Duane, JJJ, Burton, Juan, Cohen, STJ and Fischer. I'd really like to see what that group could do after a solid 2 months of playing together.
Yeah, what is up with Dawson? We only have nine guys. I hope we start seeing more of him. He showed last year he can play at this level.
Actually liked Dakich this game. Usually can't stand him. Maybe cause he limited his whining.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on November 18, 2014, 09:24:57 PM
Yeah, what is up with Dawson? We only have nine guys. I hope we start seeing more of him. He showed last year he can play at this level.
You don't get to play unless you know what you're doing on D first, is usually how it goes for most coaches.
Derrick should probably take the opponents point guard on defense. On offense, have Carlino run it. Derrick looks to casual out there. We should only have players out on the court that would rather die than lose. Ok it is an exaggeration.
Quote from: Stone Cold on November 18, 2014, 09:21:33 PM
Mayo scored 11 ppg and was a 46% shooter last year. To say we couldn't have used his offensive game against a zone when we couldn't hit a shot is silly.
To say that the outcome of this game would have been any different with Todd playing is silly as well.
MU is better off without Todd and all his baggage.
Did you hear Dakisch talk about Mayo tonight? Addition by subtraction...
Quote from: NersEllenson on November 18, 2014, 09:20:34 PM
Fixed.
And did you really think it was going to be any different with him this year??
We're all familiar with your feelings on Derrick. You're 5,432nd post repeating the same thing didn't bring any additional insight.
Quote from: RJax55 on November 18, 2014, 09:27:02 PM
To say that the outcome of this game would have been any different with Todd playing is silly as well.
MU is better off without Todd and all his baggage.
I don't think you'll find that I said that. We can use more proven shooters on this team, and I'll leave it at that...since Todd is a sore subject for many.
JJJ didn't have his good shooting from last week carry over, hopefully as he gets more experience he'll have good road shooting games.
Help in shooting seems to be on the way though.
Quote from: Stone Cold on November 18, 2014, 09:25:33 PM
Actually liked Dakich this game. Usually can't stand him. Maybe cause he limited his whining.
I'm no Duke apologist, but his comment about all the ex-Duke players on our staff when Duke is such a renowned academic institution was just stupid, unfunny, and a cheap shot, especially at Wojo, Carrawell, and Thornton. Dakich is a jerk. He wants to be bold and opinionated, and just comes off sounding like an idiot much of the time.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on November 18, 2014, 09:24:57 PM
Yeah, what is up with Dawson? We only have nine guys. I hope we start seeing more of him. He showed last year he can play at this level.
I'd like to see more of him as well but I'll trust Wojo here. Hopefully he keeps working and doesn't get discouraged. He has the talent to play a role (although not a huge one) as an upperclassmen.
The more I think about it Burton could be the x-factor to this season.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on November 18, 2014, 09:31:55 PM
I'm no Duke apologist, but his comment about all the ex-Duke players on our staff when Duke is such a renowned academic institution was just stupid, unfunny, and a cheap shot, especially at Wojo, Carrawell, and Thornton. Dakich is a jerk. He wants to be bold and opinionated, and just comes off sounding like an idiot much of the time.
It was clearly a joke. A lame one, but a joke nevertheless.
Dawson will have to be patient. I think he is going to have a season of a lot of games like this one. However he could very well be the back up PG next year.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on November 18, 2014, 09:31:55 PM
I'm no Duke apologist, but his comment about all the ex-Duke players on our staff when Duke is such a renowned academic institution was just stupid, unfunny, and a cheap shot, especially at Wojo, Carrawell, and Thornton. Dakich is a jerk. He wants to be bold and opinionated, and just comes off sounding like an idiot much of the time.
+19
Quote from: T Diamond Smith34 on November 18, 2014, 09:28:38 PM
We're all familiar with your feelings on Derrick. You're 5,432nd post repeating the same thing didn't bring any additional insight.
I'll stop expressing my feelings on Derrick when you and others stop expressing yours with regard to Derrick. Deal?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 18, 2014, 09:32:59 PM
I'd like to see more of him as well but I'll trust Wojo here. Hopefully he keeps working and doesn't get discouraged. He has the talent to play a role (although not a huge one) as an upperclassmen.
The more I think about it Burton could be the x-factor to this season.
We have a team of x-factors. (except Derrick Wilson)
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 18, 2014, 08:29:55 PM
The turning point in this game is when Taylor killed an easy 2 and 0 fast break by looking over his shoulder for the defense and bouncing the ball off his knee and out of bounds. If he passes that ball to TreyJ its an easy dunk.
Or at least an easy missed dunk! :-[
Anybody gain impressions on who the leader of this team is yet? Could be wrong, but nobody stepped to the front and rallied the troops too often on the court.
Quote from: Stone Cold on November 18, 2014, 09:30:29 PM
I don't think you'll find that I said that. We can use more proven shooters on this team, and I'll leave it at that...since Todd is a sore subject for many.
JJJ didn't have his good shooting from last week carry over, hopefully as he gets more experience he'll have good road shooting games.
Help in shooting seems to be on the way though.
Fair. I'll just point out that from 3, Todd was hardily a good shooter. Shot 33% last year, was a career 31% 3-point shooter at MU.
Agree on JJJ, he had a tough night.
Quote from: Stone Cold on November 18, 2014, 09:40:54 PM
Anybody gain impressions on who the leader of this team is yet? Could be wrong, but nobody stepped to the front and rallied the troops too often on the court.
Carlino
Quote from: RJax55 on November 18, 2014, 09:42:39 PM
Fair. I'll just point out that from 3, Todd was hardily a good shooter. Shot 33% last year, was a career 31% 3-point shooter at MU.
Agree on JJJ, he had a tough night.
Can we just all move on from Todd freaking Mayo?!?! New season, new team. I don't think many of us have many good memories of his MU days.
Quote from: mupanther on November 18, 2014, 09:19:25 PM
What didn't you like about Wischusen and Dakich?
About 5 minutes into the second half while talking about the number of coaches who had been somehow mentored by Coach K, one of them said something to the effect of "Coach K has DNA on a lot of benches in the country."
Seems like that statement would fit Rick Pitino a lot better.
"Can we just all move on from Todd freaking Mayo?!?! New season, new team. I don't think many of us have many good memories of his MU days. "
Relax. It's a message board, we talk.
We need a JJJ shooting guard hitting shots and we can be real good.
He is a guy who this season really hinges on. We need him to step up big time. Some pressure is on the kid.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on November 18, 2014, 09:39:09 PM
We have a team of x-factors. (except Derrick Wilson)
I suppose that's fair. I guess I feel like if anyone could put it all together and make an enormous impact it would be Deonte.
Quote from: Stone Cold on November 18, 2014, 09:46:17 PM
"Can we just all move on from Todd freaking Mayo?!?! New season, new team. I don't think many of us have many good memories of his MU days. "
Relax. It's a message board, we talk.
I know. I just want to forget that last year ever happened and Mayo just personified in so many ways the flaws of last years team, and the flaws of guys Buzz brought in during his time at MU.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on November 18, 2014, 09:46:46 PM
I suppose that's fair. I guess I feel like if anyone could put it all together and make an enormous impact it would be Deonte.
He could have a huge impact, he's such a natural scorer on a team that badly needs a go to guy. If I had to pick one x-factor, it probably is him I suppose. But he's got to get over this notion that every time he touches the ball he has to put it up. That really seems to be his mentality right now. Hopefully Wojo and staff will coach that out of him (I think they will).
Quote from: Stone Cold on November 18, 2014, 08:19:11 PM
Pretty soft. In all facets.
I agree, first half it was mostly OSU shooting the lights out, second half it was very poor defense.
Quote from: statnik on November 18, 2014, 09:55:13 PM
I agree, first half it was mostly OSU shooting the lights out, second half it was very poor defense.
That and OSU is just better than we are, especially right now. People are confusing youth and inexperience with softness. These guys are not soft.
One critique that I did have: Carlino needs to work on his flopping. Like, either don't do it or be able to make it at least a little convincing.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on November 18, 2014, 09:31:55 PM
I'm no Duke apologist, but his comment about all the ex-Duke players on our staff when Duke is such a renowned academic institution was just stupid, unfunny, and a cheap shot, especially at Wojo, Carrawell, and Thornton. Dakich is a jerk. He wants to be bold and opinionated, and just comes off sounding like an idiot much of the time.
Maybe Dakich would be better working in the back office. There should be a league fine for giving him a mike.
Tonight we saw the weakness of the extended pressure against a team that had quality guards, were bigger, and could shoot the 3. MU wasn't able to turn them over enough and, in the second half when they decided to pound it inside, MU was basically powerless to stop them. But IMO, it is the best defensive option for this team.
I thought MU did a decent job of attacking the zone, considering how good the zone was and how little experience MU has. Good ball movement, got it to the foul line and down low fairly regularly, just not able to finish consistently enough or knock down enough jumpers. I have been trying to remember the last team I saw pressure full court man and fall back into that kind of zone. They slow you down and force you to finally get into your zone offense having already run 12-15 seconds off of the clock. Really impressive.
Wojo has done a nice job of getting MU to guard without fouling Of course, IMO, it is going to take a long, quick, physical team to beat OSU, and the only thing MU has is quick. My fears were apparently groundless.
MU was never going to win this game. tOSU is better. MU competed and didn't quit and didn't get rolled. I am more hopeful after tonight's game than I was after the UTM game.
Quote from: chapman on November 18, 2014, 09:56:59 PM
One critique that I did have: Carlino needs to work on his flopping. Like, either don't do it or be able to make it at least a little convincing.
I'm not a big fan of the flop anyway. That's one thing about Crean's MU teams that grew very tiring. Good refs almost never buy flopping.
Quote from: NersEllenson on November 18, 2014, 08:40:38 PM
We did look gassed - and although we only played 8 - I don't feel there is an excuse for the guys to be gassed (other than perhaps Steve/Juan). Wojo may need to ratchet up the pre-season conditioning. OSU played 10 guys...we played 8...and chose not to even play 1 of our guys for whatever reason.
To be fair, we played pretty intense on ball defense at times, while OSU generally sat back in their zone. We hustled and expended more energy, but talent won this game (as well as size).
Quote from: tower912 on November 18, 2014, 09:59:02 PM
I thought MU did a decent job of attacking the zone, considering how good the zone was and how little experience MU has. Good ball movement, got it to the foul line and down low fairly regularly, just not able to finish consistently enough or knock down enough jumpers.
Many possessions they were textbook on how to attack a zone. Most of the time they executed everything except making the shot, especially from outside (JJJ).
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on November 18, 2014, 09:56:26 PM
That and OSU is just better than we are, especially right now. People are confusing youth and inexperience with softness. These guys are not soft.
Yeah, they looked soft in the second half and stopped playing hard on defense like they did in the first half. Some of it was probably being gassed, but going eight deep is pretty typical for a team, so it's not like we had four starters playing 40 minutes or something like that.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on November 18, 2014, 10:02:29 PM
Many possessions they were textbook on how to attack a zone. Most of the time they executed everything except making the shot, especially from outside (JJJ).
MU had many good looks inside that they missed. They had several opportunities for good looks that they didn't exploit. And the good looks from 3 just weren't falling enough. The process was spot on, the results were not. Ah, well.
Things I liked:
1. What I liked most (by a long shot) was the way we ran our zone offense. Taylor shot a ton of lay ups, mostly wide open ones on passes from the high post.
2. Sandy Cohen - held his own vs good competition. He's a keeper - when he gets stronger he'll have a solid inside game to go with his nice touch from the perimeter.
3. Matt Carlino - only guard who looks like a ready for prime time player.
4. Steve Taylor - his numbers are a bit deceiving as he shot lots of uncontested no footers, but he has good hands and catches it and rebounds it well.
Things I didn't like:
1. By far the most disappointing thing to me was our second half defense - dunk after lay up after lay up after dunk. Atrocious.
2. JJJ - the athletic freak who dominated against the cupcake looked very ordinary.
3. Juan - see #2, although he looked a little better in the second half.
4.Deonte - I'll cut him some slack due to his personal situation, but he was totally lost out there.
Derrick was Derrick, did very little either way, Duane looks good shooting it but he's very weak on D and with the ball.
Overall, at least as good as expected. They kept their poise and played hard. Thought Wojo coached a good game.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 18, 2014, 10:13:10 PM
Things I liked:
1. What I liked most (by a long shot) was the way we ran our zone offense. Taylor shot a ton of lay ups, mostly wide open ones on passes from the high post.
2. Sandy Cohen - held his own vs good competition. He's a keeper - when he gets stronger he'll have a solid inside game to go with his nice touch from the perimeter.
3. Steve Carlino - only guard who looks like a ready for prime time player.
4. Steve Taylor - his numbers are a bit deceiving as he shot lots of uncontested no footers, but he has good hands and catches it and rebounds it well.
Things I didn't like:
1. By far the most disappointing thing to me was our second half defense - dunk after lay up after lay up after dunk. Atrocious.
2. JJJ - the athletic freak who dominated against the cupcake looked very ordinary.
3. Juan - see #2, although he looked a little better in the second half.
4.Deonte - I'll cut him some slack due to his personal situation, but he was totally lost out there.
Derrick was Derrick, did very little either way, Duane looks good shooting it but he's very weak on D and with the ball.
Overall, at least as good as expected. They kept their poise and played hard. Thought Wojo coached a good game.
Whos Steve Carlino?
Overall, sloppy but not too shabby.
I am not a coach, but was a little disappointed that with 8 min ties left in 2nd half, Marquette got into the double bonus but did nothing to push the ball to draw fouls after that. The window to get back in it was slim, but that was their best option and no one really made an effort to take advantage of thr situation.
Just watched the replay.
JUAN holds onto the ball too long. Indecisiveness killed him. Driving into two players, caught in bad positions, picking up dribbles. Doesn't even have a two-point stroke outside the key. Doesn't have the jumps to even sky over people IN the key for dunks.
STEVE had some head shaking missed bunnies. But he'll be the most consistent defensive rebounder and interior post scorer on this team.
CARLINO has the green light from Wojo. But these long rebounds that lead to easy transition baskets are going to kill this team. That said, he's the best perimeter scoring threat we have. Also, it always looks like he's palming the ball.
COHEN is coming along well. This is going to be a great experience building year for him. He's going to get significant minutes this year.
DUANE was stroking it but the injury still has him playing catch up.
DERRICK will be a reliable floor general. But April can't come soon enough.
JJJ is an open court threat. He's silky smooth to the hoop.
DEONTE is gonna come around eventually. His team is going to need him to really step up in the future and I know he will.
TEAM's defense - switching and transition - has to improve drastically. Height is one thing, but position and assignments are others.
TEAM's offense saw less drawn foul calls on scoring attempts and settled for more jump shots. Nova with Lowry, Foye, Nardi and Sheridan we are not.
I know Derrick didn't put up great numbers but he made 2/4 shots and hit both his free throws. Not saying play him all game but I think a lot of our hate on him can be lessened for the time being.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on November 18, 2014, 11:18:59 PM
I know Derrick didn't put up great numbers but he made 2/4 shots and hit both his free throws. Not saying play him all game but I think a lot of our hate on him can be lessened for the time being.
That was Duane who was 2-4 and 2-2. Derrick was 1-2 (both 3s) and 0-0
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on November 18, 2014, 09:24:57 PM
Yeah, what is up with Dawson? We only have nine guys. I hope we start seeing more of him. He showed last year he can play at this level.
Aside from a
10 minute stretch at georgetown, where he had a one of those kids with autism type games , no he did not
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on November 18, 2014, 11:18:59 PM
I know Derrick didn't put up great numbers but he made 2/4 shots and hit both his free throws. Not saying play him all game but I think a lot of our hate on him can be lessened for the time being.
Everything seemed to bog down with Derrick running the point. He is a better defender than Duane so he deserves minutes, but IMO he should be the third option at point.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 19, 2014, 06:15:30 AM
Everything seemed to bog down with Derrick running the point. He is a better defender than Duane so he deserves minutes, but IMO he should be the third option at point.
Exactly what I thought while watching. Derrick slows the game down so much. Unless he's wide open in the corner with not much time on the shot clock, he's not going to shoot so he carefully looks around for someone to pass to. Of course he doesn't have a lot of TOs because he moves the ball around so slowly.
Quote from: NersEllenson on November 18, 2014, 09:37:19 PM
I'll stop expressing my feelings on Derrick when you and others stop expressing yours with regard to Derrick. Deal?
I made the obsrevation that he struggled with entry passes during the game. You have a 13 month history of endlessly pissing on the young man, in every thread possible, culminating in expressing happiness at the prospect of him being injured and unable to play. WTF is wrong with you?
Quote from: nyg on November 18, 2014, 08:22:30 PM
Wojo had Juan bringing up the ball all night, interesting concept.
For some reason, he was the only one taking care of the ball when breaking the press. When Carlino had the ball in his hands, I was really worried about the 10 seconds.
I thought the game went as expected. MU showed good spurts but tOSU was better. We needed to shut down Scott and we couldn't. He ended up with 14 assists which was more then everyone else on tOSU.
We did a good job on Russell which helped frustrate him early and got him out of the game but Williams, Loving, and Thompson hit shots.
We need to take better shots and learn to make that extra pass consistently.
I think against better teams tOSU will struggle.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 18, 2014, 08:32:53 PM
Duane played garbage time hero. Before that he did nothing for MU. 0 points, 0 rebounds, 0 assists, 2 turnovers 0-2 from 3 and was out of place on defense. The time at the end made me hopeful but he's not ready.
He is a hell of a lot readier than Derrick: better at FT's, better shooter, better passer, better penetrator, better creator, and much quicker. Sorry Sir, you missed the train on that one.
Doing it garbage time at least he shows he is capable of scoring versus playing 4 on 5...
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 18, 2014, 08:32:53 PM
Duane played garbage time hero. Before that he did nothing for MU. 0 points, 0 rebounds, 0 assists, 2 turnovers 0-2 from 3 and was out of place on defense. The time at the end made me hopeful but he's not ready.
Quote from: tower912 on November 18, 2014, 09:59:02 PM
Tonight we saw the weakness of the extended pressure against a team that had quality guards, were bigger, and could shoot the 3. MU wasn't able to turn them over enough and, in the second half when they decided to pound it inside, MU was basically powerless to stop them. But IMO, it is the best defensive option for this team.
I thought MU did a decent job of attacking the zone, considering how good the zone was and how little experience MU has. Good ball movement, got it to the foul line and down low fairly regularly, just not able to finish consistently enough or knock down enough jumpers. I have been trying to remember the last team I saw pressure full court man and fall back into that kind of zone. They slow you down and force you to finally get into your zone offense having already run 12-15 seconds off of the clock. Really impressive.
Wojo has done a nice job of getting MU to guard without fouling Of course, IMO, it is going to take a long, quick, physical team to beat OSU, and the only thing MU has is quick. My fears were apparently groundless.
MU was never going to win this game. tOSU is better. MU competed and didn't quit and didn't get rolled. I am more hopeful after tonight's game than I was after the UTM game.
Excellent assessment.
There will be many times this season when we are simply not as good as our opponent. I still think we'll pull off an upset or two, but we'll also probably lose a couple of games we shouldn't.
Regardless, the team already is more entertaining than last season's version, and better days are less than a year away.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 18, 2014, 11:38:35 PM
That was Duane who was 2-4 and 2-2. Derrick was 1-2 (both 3s) and 0-0
Hah stupid box score only showing "D Wilson" on there.
Quote from: madtownwarrior on November 19, 2014, 07:59:42 AM
Doing it garbage time at least he shows he is capable of scoring versus playing 4 on 5...
Quote from: willie warrior on November 19, 2014, 07:56:01 AM
He is a hell of a lot readier than Derrick: better at FT's, better shooter, better passer, better penetrator, better creator, and much quicker. Sorry Sir, you missed the train on that one.
If the choice was between Duane and Derrick for the starting PG, I would bite the bullet and pick Duane. But since it is for the backup PG position, I would much rather have experience, strong defense, and someone who won't make mistakes. Derrick is a bad starting PG but is a decent backup PG.
There were a lot of growing pains that showed last night. That was to be expected. A lot of things need to be shored up including transition defense and just not making the "rookie" mistakes.
The only real issue I still have this morning is this: the team failed to adjust when they got in the double bonus early in the 2nd half (about 8 minutes left). When you are in a deficit and have the other team in foul trouble, you push it inside and try to draw contact and score with the clock stopped. The only fouls I remember Marquette drawing came way outside the paint and with < 2 minutes left. Seemed a bit of an odd decision to not push it further once the team got in the double bonus.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 19, 2014, 08:33:33 AM
If the choice was between Duane and Derrick for the starting PG, I would bite the bullet and pick Duane. But since it is for the backup PG position, I would much rather have experience, strong defense, and someone who won't make mistakes. Derrick is a bad starting PG but is a decent backup PG.
Wrongo---time to ring out the old and ring in the new.
Was anyone else annoyed by Russell? The constant clapping on defense in our players faces and when he posed after the made 3 early in the game. Was hoping someone would foul him hard.
Quote from: ChitownJuan on November 19, 2014, 10:20:12 AM
Was anyone else annoyed by Russell? The constant clapping on defense in our players faces and when he posed after the made 3 early in the game. Was hoping someone would foul him hard.
A bit, but the seven turnovers he coughed up were embarrassment enough for me